KAET: Native Visions

Native American Sovereignty Senator John McCain, Chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, talks with host Ivan Makil about the origins of tribal self-governance, treaties and agreements — including the challenges and implications of Native American sovereignty today. The complete transcript of the Senator McCain interview follows: Ivan Makil: Welcome to Native Visions, a program focusing on the issues of vital interest to Arizona's Native American community. I'm your host, Ivan Makil, a member of the Pima and Maricopa tribes. There are 22 tribes in our state, each possessing their own unique history and traditions. Although we are a diverse group made up of many peoples, we share a number of the same concerns. Among them, education. Coming up, we'll look at some of the challenges faced by native students and educators. Later, we'll discuss Indian healthcare and what's being done on and off the reservation to promote health and well-being. But first, I'm joined by Senator John McCain, to talk about the origins and significance of tribal government. Welcome, Senator McCain. It's really a pleasure and an honor to have you here today. I know that you've been in Congress for 23 years, and that's quite a record. It would be nice to hear how you got involved in and interested in tribal issues. Senator John McCain: Well, Ivan, when I first came to the House in 1983 where I succeeded Congressman John Rhodes, who had been there for 30 years, I went on the Interior Committee. At that time, congressman Morris Udall was the Chairman of the Interior Committee. There was a significant Democrat advantage in those days in the House of Representatives, and I became the most junior member of the Interior Committee in the House, and there was some like 40 members, and for reasons I still don't quite understand, Mo Udall literally took me to educate and train and raise on a lot of the issues that I really didn't know much about, and the Interior Committee is responsible for Indian issues. One of the first things he did with me was we went around and visited all of the Indian tribes in Arizona. And Mo Udall loved Native Americans. There is a story -- he's from St. John's, a small town in northern Arizona, and on her death bed, Morris Udall's mother said, "Mo, take care of the Indians," and I think Mo took that admonition from his mother very seriously. He was a great friend of Native Americans, and he, as Chairman of the Interior Committee in the House, was responsible for a lot of legislation that was very helpful to Native Americans in fulfilling our treaty commitments. Ivan Makil: Speaking of that, it's really interesting, because a lot of people -- and there isn't a lot of written history about the treaties that exist between tribes and the federal government and what the status is, what it has been in the past, and what it is currently. Maybe you could enlighten us on that. Senator John McCain: Well, Ivan, to state the obvious, when the Europeans came to America, there was a clash of civilizations. Throughout history, the less mature civilization always suffers, whether it be in America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, wherever it is, and there was a clash of civilizations. As Europeans came west, Native Americans were driven from their homes and their tribal lands. Treaties were made; treaties were broken. It's not a very happy chapter nor a proud chapter in America's history. So we end up with one of our oldest territories, but one of our newest states -- a number of the tribes were moved into Arizona from other places, and they signed treaties, and these treaties guaranteed in return for the rest of the land that could be used by the non-Indian population, there were certain commitments made, healthcare, education, housing, et cetera. Those treaties I urge our viewers to some day look at. They are solemn treaties that the government of the United States entered into with the Indian tribes. So when people say, why are you giving the Indians the housing money, we're doing it because we took the land in exchange for certain obligations. Neither you nor I are ready to go rewrite history and lament, but at least we should at least keep to those obligations, and we haven't throughout our history, which also probably will bring us to our subject of Indian gaming, but the next time someone says, hey, we shouldn't be giving Native Americans all of this money for housing or education or healthcare, whatever it is, it was a promise we made. There is one other minor item. In the Constitution of the United States, there is a little clause that says Congress has a special responsibility to Native Americans. It's the only clause in the Constitution that identifies a certain group of our citizens that Congress has a special responsibility for. Ivan Makil: Do you think that's because these are really contracts? The agreements, the treaties, the executive orders are actually contracts with the tribes? Senator John McCain: They were solemn obligations and historians will say, the Native Americans got the short end of the stick, to say the least, but again, there is no point in revisiting history, but I think that all of us who live in this state, who want to understand that magnificent culture of our Native Americans and the magnificent heritage should also understand that we did have a contract, a treaty as signed between nations. If we signed a treaty between the United States and Mexico, then we're expected to keep our side of the bargain. Now, we all know that Native Americans aren't, quote, sovereign nations, because they are part of America. Their citizens are in our military and everything else, but we also know that there are certain obligations we have and certain status they have, which makes them different from the City of Chandler, or the City of Phoenix, and that really is something that sometimes -- people who don't know the history, sometimes blur those distinctions. Example, right now, the Department of Homeland Security money now goes through the State of Arizona. Every other funding to the tribes goes directly to the tribes. There is something wrong there, but there will continue to be friction, but I would argue that the relationships between Arizonans and Native Americans is excellent, is very, very excellent. Ivan Makil: And a lot of it comes from your guidance, excuse me for interrupting. Senator John McCain: You are a wonderful and generous people. One of the most interesting things to me, Ivan, when we had the gaming referendum before the people of Arizona, that a majority of Arizonans approve of gaming on Indian lands and not on non-Indian lands, which meant that that there is a certain sympathy and recognition, that conditions, economic conditions, on a lot of our reservations are not good and that they deserve -- Native Americans deserve to have that opportunity. Ivan Makil: Thank you. A lot of that has been -- as I said, leadership like yourself that have actually continued to help tribes better understand and help the Congress and help the general public better understand that we're all citizens here together, and the resources that we all have, that it takes a lot of work from both of the groups, all of the groups to create a better lifestyle, a better quality of life for all of our citizens, and I'm thankful that you have been involved in that quite to a large extent. Senator John McCain: This may sound a little too sentimental but, you know, there is no greater expression of citizenship than service in the military. A larger percentage of Native Americans have served and sacrificed for our country in percentage of population than any other group of Americans. If you go down to the Vietnam War Memorial, where I visit from time to time, you will see there is a very large number of Native Americans, who are some of our greatest heroes in our state and in America. The Navajo code talkers, these young 17-year-old kids, left the reservation up in Window Rock and Chinle and these places and had never seen anything, and they joined the Marines, and they went over and they were heroes. They are not only revered by the Navajo people, but also by all of us. So, sometimes when people get the impression that perhaps Native Americans aren't contributing as much, I would argue that the record shows that they have a great deal. I want to mention one other thing. I don't know how many of our viewers know that you led the Maricopa Salt River Pima Community for 20 years, and the relationship that was developed between the Maricopa Pima community and the cities of Scottsdale, Mesa, all of the surroundings of Phoenix, surrounding cities, has really been excellent, and the cooperation has contributed enormously to the economic growth and made it a very, very attractive and well-off part of our Valley, and that's not easy when you have kind of a clash of cultures sometimes of the -- this upscale kind of community where a lot of the people are from someplace else rubbing cheek by jowl with the Native American community. It's been an enormous success and thanks for your leadership. Ivan Makil: Thank you. You're very kind as well. In the current status today, so, do you think that that is a model that would be good for Indian country and for the rest of the country in terms of the relationships that can be established between tribes and communities? Senator John McCain: Small story. You came to me years ago and said, look, we want to have a provision in the law that allows us into binding contract agreements with people who come to our reservation who want to make investments, build shopping centers, many of the other things that are there, and it was tough. It was tough. We got it through the Congress, we got it signed into law, and now look at the economic development that has profited people on both sides of the boundaries of the reservation. I would argue that that kind of thing, when a tribe reached that level of maturity so they won't be exploited is something, among others, that would be a model. Ivan Makil: Thank you, Senator. It's really been a pleasure having you today. Appreciate all of your insight. Thank you. Senator John McCain: Thank you very much. >> Read the complete transcript for the one-hour Native Visions special, including the discussions on health care and education. Major funding for Native Visions provided by a grant from the Arizona State University Office of Public Affairs.	Native Visions Native American sovereignty Education Health care About the TV program Ivan Makil Profile From the General Manager Learn more about the Native American communities represented on Native Visions: The Hopi Tribe Inter-Tribal Council of Arizona Navajo Nation Salt River Pima-Maricopa Indian Community San Carlos Apache Tribe Tohono O'odham Nation Related Links Arizona State University American Indian History and Culture Center for Indian Education

Native American Sovereignty

Senator John McCain talks with host Ivan Makil Senator John McCain, Chairman of the U.S. Senate Committee on Indian Affairs, talks with host Ivan Makil about the origins of tribal self-governance, treaties and agreements — including the challenges and implications of Native American sovereignty today.

The complete transcript of the Senator McCain interview follows:

Ivan Makil:
Welcome to Native Visions, a program focusing on the issues of vital interest to Arizona's Native American community. I'm your host, Ivan Makil, a member of the Pima and Maricopa tribes. There are 22 tribes in our state, each possessing their own unique history and traditions. Although we are a diverse group made up of many peoples, we share a number of the same concerns. Among them, education. Coming up, we'll look at some of the challenges faced by native students and educators. Later, we'll discuss Indian healthcare and what's being done on and off the reservation to promote health and well-being. But first, I'm joined by Senator John McCain, to talk about the origins and significance of tribal government. Welcome, Senator McCain. It's really a pleasure and an honor to have you here today. I know that you've been in Congress for 23 years, and that's quite a record. It would be nice to hear how you got involved in and interested in tribal issues.

Senator John McCain:
Well, Ivan, when I first came to the House in 1983 where I succeeded Congressman John Rhodes, who had been there for 30 years, I went on the Interior Committee. At that time, congressman Morris Udall was the Chairman of the Interior Committee. There was a significant Democrat advantage in those days in the House of Representatives, and I became the most junior member of the Interior Committee in the House, and there was some like 40 members, and for reasons I still don't quite understand, Mo Udall literally took me to educate and train and raise on a lot of the issues that I really didn't know much about, and the Interior Committee is responsible for Indian issues. One of the first things he did with me was we went around and visited all of the Indian tribes in Arizona. And Mo Udall loved Native Americans. There is a story -- he's from St. John's, a small town in northern Arizona, and on her death bed, Morris Udall's mother said, "Mo, take care of the Indians," and I think Mo took that admonition from his mother very seriously. He was a great friend of Native Americans, and he, as Chairman of the Interior Committee in the House, was responsible for a lot of legislation that was very helpful to Native Americans in fulfilling our treaty commitments.

Ivan Makil:
Speaking of that, it's really interesting, because a lot of people -- and there isn't a lot of written history about the treaties that exist between tribes and the federal government and what the status is, what it has been in the past, and what it is currently. Maybe you could enlighten us on that.

Senator John McCain:
Well, Ivan, to state the obvious, when the Europeans came to America, there was a clash of civilizations. Throughout history, the less mature civilization always suffers, whether it be in America, South America, Australia, New Zealand, wherever it is, and there was a clash of civilizations. As Europeans came west, Native Americans were driven from their homes and their tribal lands. Treaties were made; treaties were broken. It's not a very happy chapter nor a proud chapter in America's history. So we end up with one of our oldest territories, but one of our newest states -- a number of the tribes were moved into Arizona from other places, and they signed treaties, and these treaties guaranteed in return for the rest of the land that could be used by the non-Indian population, there were certain commitments made, healthcare, education, housing, et cetera. Those treaties I urge our viewers to some day look at. They are solemn treaties that the government of the United States entered into with the Indian tribes. So when people say, why are you giving the Indians the housing money, we're doing it because we took the land in exchange for certain obligations. Neither you nor I are ready to go rewrite history and lament, but at least we should at least keep to those obligations, and we haven't throughout our history, which also probably will bring us to our subject of Indian gaming, but the next time someone says, hey, we shouldn't be giving Native Americans all of this money for housing or education or healthcare, whatever it is, it was a promise we made. There is one other minor item. In the Constitution of the United States, there is a little clause that says Congress has a special responsibility to Native Americans. It's the only clause in the Constitution that identifies a certain group of our citizens that Congress has a special responsibility for.

Ivan Makil:
Do you think that's because these are really contracts? The agreements, the treaties, the executive orders are actually contracts with the tribes?

Senator McCain with Ivan Makil Senator John McCain:
They were solemn obligations and historians will say, the Native Americans got the short end of the stick, to say the least, but again, there is no point in revisiting history, but I think that all of us who live in this state, who want to understand that magnificent culture of our Native Americans and the magnificent heritage should also understand that we did have a contract, a treaty as signed between nations. If we signed a treaty between the United States and Mexico, then we're expected to keep our side of the bargain. Now, we all know that Native Americans aren't, quote, sovereign nations, because they are part of America. Their citizens are in our military and everything else, but we also know that there are certain obligations we have and certain status they have, which makes them different from the City of Chandler, or the City of Phoenix, and that really is something that sometimes -- people who don't know the history, sometimes blur those distinctions. Example, right now, the Department of Homeland Security money now goes through the State of Arizona. Every other funding to the tribes goes directly to the tribes. There is something wrong there, but there will continue to be friction, but I would argue that the relationships between Arizonans and Native Americans is excellent, is very, very excellent.

Ivan Makil:
And a lot of it comes from your guidance, excuse me for interrupting.

Senator John McCain:
You are a wonderful and generous people. One of the most interesting things to me, Ivan, when we had the gaming referendum before the people of Arizona, that a majority of Arizonans approve of gaming on Indian lands and not on non-Indian lands, which meant that that there is a certain sympathy and recognition, that conditions, economic conditions, on a lot of our reservations are not good and that they deserve -- Native Americans deserve to have that opportunity.

Ivan Makil:
Thank you. A lot of that has been -- as I said, leadership like yourself that have actually continued to help tribes better understand and help the Congress and help the general public better understand that we're all citizens here together, and the resources that we all have, that it takes a lot of work from both of the groups, all of the groups to create a better lifestyle, a better quality of life for all of our citizens, and I'm thankful that you have been involved in that quite to a large extent.

Senator John McCain:
This may sound a little too sentimental but, you know, there is no greater expression of citizenship than service in the military. A larger percentage of Native Americans have served and sacrificed for our country in percentage of population than any other group of Americans. If you go down to the Vietnam War Memorial, where I visit from time to time, you will see there is a very large number of Native Americans, who are some of our greatest heroes in our state and in America. The Navajo code talkers, these young 17-year-old kids, left the reservation up in Window Rock and Chinle and these places and had never seen anything, and they joined the Marines, and they went over and they were heroes. They are not only revered by the Navajo people, but also by all of us. So, sometimes when people get the impression that perhaps Native Americans aren't contributing as much, I would argue that the record shows that they have a great deal. I want to mention one other thing. I don't know how many of our viewers know that you led the Maricopa Salt River Pima Community for 20 years, and the relationship that was developed between the Maricopa Pima community and the cities of Scottsdale, Mesa, all of the surroundings of Phoenix, surrounding cities, has really been excellent, and the cooperation has contributed enormously to the economic growth and made it a very, very attractive and well-off part of our Valley, and that's not easy when you have kind of a clash of cultures sometimes of the -- this upscale kind of community where a lot of the people are from someplace else rubbing cheek by jowl with the Native American community. It's been an enormous success and thanks for your leadership.

Ivan Makil:
Thank you. You're very kind as well. In the current status today, so, do you think that that is a model that would be good for Indian country and for the rest of the country in terms of the relationships that can be established between tribes and communities?

Senator John McCain:
Small story. You came to me years ago and said, look, we want to have a provision in the law that allows us into binding contract agreements with people who come to our reservation who want to make investments, build shopping centers, many of the other things that are there, and it was tough. It was tough. We got it through the Congress, we got it signed into law, and now look at the economic development that has profited people on both sides of the boundaries of the reservation. I would argue that that kind of thing, when a tribe reached that level of maturity so they won't be exploited is something, among others, that would be a model.

Ivan Makil:
Thank you, Senator. It's really been a pleasure having you today. Appreciate all of your insight. Thank you.

Senator John McCain:
Thank you very much.

>> Read the complete transcript for the one-hour Native Visions special, including the discussions on health care and education.

Major funding for Native Visions provided by a grant from the
Arizona State University Office of Public Affairs.