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Transcripts

October 4, 2004

Host: Cary Pfeffer substituting for Michael Grant
Topics:
· Maricopa County Attorney candidate forum;
· Religion's role in the election;
· Presidential Debate performance
In-Studio Guests:
· Andrew Thomas, Republican candidate for Maricopa County attorney;
· Don Harris, Democratic candidate for Maricopa County attorney
· Kelly McDonald, Director of Forensics, Hugh Downs School of Human Communication, Arizona State University

Cary Pfeffer:
Tonight on "Horizon", the race for Maricopa County attorney will determine a successor to Rick Romley. A forum with the candidates. Religion and politics in the election, a discussion with Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne and a critique of the last presidential debate. Those stories are coming up.

Underwriting: "Horizon", is made possible by the friends of channel 8. Members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Cary Pfeffer:
Good evening, I'm Cary Pfeffer in tonight for Michael Grant. Tonight at midnight is the deadline for registering to vote in the general election November 2nd. You may still go online to register on the secretary of state's website: www.azsos.gov. Or contact your party headquarters. One of the races to be determined November 2nd is Maricopa County attorney. The Republican candidate, Andrew Thomas, is an attorney and author. He ran unsuccessfully for state attorney general in 2002. His opponent, Democrat Don Harris, is also an attorney. He was, in fact, appointed to the office of Maricopa County attorney for five months in 1976. Gentlemen, thank you both for being here.

Don Harris:
Pleasure.

Andrew Thomas:
Good evening.

Cary Pfeffer:
Andrew, let's start with you. And the same question to both of you, but we're going to start with you. Why do you want this job?

Andrew Thomas:
The central thread in my career as an attorney has been a commitment to crime control. I believe the fundamental obligation of government is to allow law-abiding people to live their lives in peace and security. And the county attorney's office is central to that. That's where we prosecute almost all of our felonies. I want to see tougher sentences for violent and serious criminals, and I want to crack down generally on the crime rate in Maricopa County. Our auto theft and identity theft rates are highest in the nation and I want to see leadership built on the legacy of Rick Romley who has endorsed me for this office and who will work in cooperation with Phoenix mayor Phil Gordon, who has also endorsed me.

Cary Pfeffer:
Don Harris, your thoughts on why you want the job.

Don Harris:
I've built my career in prosecution. I started out as a deputy county attorney when I left the Marine Corps in 1967, I prosecuted three death penalty cases in a row, successfully. Two of them the death penalty was meted out. Prosecuted the major rape, murder cases at that time. State vs. Anderson. I went out in to private practice after two and a half years in the county attorney's. Went back in at the behest of Bob Corbin to take over the office when Berger had to resign and instituted four or five major programs in four months. I love that office, I love the people in it, I love prosecuting. I am the man to do the job in the prosecutor's office. I have been there and done that. I've walked the walk as well as talked the talk.

Cary Pfeffer:
Andrew, Don Harris talks about the fact that he has been a prosecutor and makes that part of why he wants voters to support him. What about the fact that you have not prosecuted a felony case in front of a jury?

Andrew Thomas:
That's not true. I have done felony jury trials at the attorney general's office. I've done misdemeanor trials. I've done trials. But what's important in addition to that is that we have somebody who has a track record of serving successfully in important positions in the criminal justice system in this state, and I've done that. I've been the chief attorney of the Department of Corrections, I was the criminal justice policy advisor for the governor. I oversaw the state's criminal justice agencies. I served as a prosecutor at the county attorney's office. Here we have a difference because Don Harris was the county attorney for five months 30 years ago and he was not successful in the job. According to former Attorney General Grant Woods, he managed to -- these are Mr. Woods' words -- he bungled the biggest criminal case in history in the Maricopa County Attorney's Office, the Don Bolles murder case. It was taken away from him by -- the case was taken away from him by Democratic Governor Raul Castro and given then to Democratic Attorney General Bruce Babbitt. Fortunately, we had Bruce Babbitt there to take it from there. Grand Woods ended up completing the case. There is a difference in track record. I think it's important to have confidence and professionalism in that office.

Cary Pfeffer:
Let's talk about the Don Bowles case since it came up.

Don Harris:
Yes, sir. That's the problem with Mr. Thomas. He doesn't do his research and doesn't follow through on it. The case was taken away because Bruce Babbitt wanted and requested it of the governor. I have the letter with me from the governor's office. The judge particularly found I did nothing wrong to cause removal from the case. Two and a half months later, the attorney general's office made the same deal with Adamson that I was going to make two and a half months earlier. And if I had done it, it wouldn't have been reversed as it was under the Attorney General's guise. If you remember, the Adamson case was reversed. It was screwed up by the Attorney General's office. That would not have happened. And while I was in the office for four months, I started four programs that are still on the books today: Enhanced penalty for assaulting a police officer, no bail for a defendant. When he was convicted, he went right to jail that day pending sentencing. We started the internship program with ASU's law students to come over and prosecute and we started sealing records on unserved search warrants so they wouldn't be leaked to the press. Those are monumental issues that I accomplished in four months. When I left that office, the public loved me.

Cary Pfeffer:
1976 you left the office, correct?

Don Harris:
Yes, sir.

Cary Pfeffer:
You say you loved the office and you loved the people involved, but at the same time you have not run for that office previously.

Don Harris:
No, sir. In between, I had a very successful office in law and litigation. I have an office in Berlin, Germany. It now felt comfortable for me to do this. I felt this was the time to return and try my prosecutorial skills once again. The office is in need of a strong leader. They don't have one. That office is in shambles. And when Mr. Thomas talks about building on the legacy of Rick Romley, he is building on quick sand with a house of cards.

Cary Pfeffer:
Andrew Thomas, your thoughts if you are the successful candidate, your predecessor Rick Romley and the charges raised by Don?

Andrew Thomas:
I think Rick Romley has done an excellent job of running the office, elected four times by the citizens of Maricopa County to be our county attorney and what I want to do is extend that legacy by addressing new crimes, new challenges. I mentioned auto theft, identity theft is another one that's very important. I want more prosecutorial resources to bear on crimes against children, on elder abuse. If we have that kind of leadership and a track record of being successful and of working competently and with integrity and professionalism, I think that's what the citizens of Maricopa County are going to be looking for in that office and that's why I think I've been able to obtain the endorsements of the wide array of individuals I mentioned, Phil Gordon, Rick Romley, Grant Woods has endorsed me, the former Attorney General, the police and firefighters and many others. I would look forward to extending that legacy and I believe they have the confidence that I will be able to do that.

Cary Pfeffer:
You have run for Arizona Attorney General. Sometimes the criticism of somebody who runs for a county office is that they're using that as a stepping stone. Are you ready to say before all of us that this is not the case for you, that you're not interested in moving to another office down the road?

Andrew Thomas:
I have always been interested in fighting crime, that's the common thread in my legal career from serving in the attorney general's office to the other positions I mentioned. The county attorney office is a tremendous place to make a difference if what you're wanting to do is make neighborhoods safer -- look, I have four small children. I want to see the day when my 10-year-old daughter can walk the mile to the neighborhood public school and I won't have to worry about whether she is going to make it safely, that my children can play in our neighborhood and I won't have to worry about that. That day can come if we are willing to bring to bear the resources and commitment and leadership it takes to see that happen.

Cary Pfeffer:
Don Harris, Mr. Thomas talks about the fact that he has endorsements from high profile folks in the community and some who are Democrats. What about that?

Don Harris:
Endorsements are one vote. Phil Gordon has one vote. Grant Woods has one vote. I've been endorsed by the people in a democratic primary I was not supposed to win. The people have endorsed me, ASCME, the unions have endorsed me. The people who work in the Maricopa County Attorneys Office who are union members, I have been endorsed by them. I've been endorsed by the population. They want a strong leader. I bring leadership, efficiency and experience to the office. With all due respect, I'm going to beard the lion right now. I understand Mr. Thomas has never tried a felony jury case to a jury, ever in his life. I would like him to mention just one case. Give me a name. His Republican cohorts have told me he has never tried a felony case. I've tried over 300 jury trials. I've gotten the death penalty. I've walked the walk. Tell me, please, Andrew, what's the name of the case you prosecuted?

Andrew Thomas:
I prosecuted felony jury trial cases when I was at the attorney general's office. It was almost ten years ago. Sherri Stevens, who is today a Maricopa County Superior Court judge was my co-counsel on those cases. I have done other trials and served in important positions in the criminal justice system, which is the point of the matter. The county attorney does not shlep files to court, although it is important that you have that experience, and I do have that experience. You have to be able to provide leadership and command the confidence of the people who are working beneath you. If you have somebody who has worked in that office, has not succeeded and can't command the respect of his own party, and he is throwing out so-called facts here tonight that I haven't done these things -- I have. He has made up endorsements that he hasn't received. The campaign for county attorney has not been one that would inspire confidence. He has received over $15,000 in campaign finance violations. We really need to look at the track records here.

Cary Pfeffer:
These are specific endorsements that not correct in your view as far as what Mr. Harris has said?

Andrew Thomas:
It's not my view, it's what these people have said.

Cary Pfeffer:
But I mean, specifically which endorsements?

Andrew Thomas:
He alleged, he used a quotation from Jim Peterson, the head of the Arizona Democratic Party in his campaign letters or in the primary that implied an endorsement. He has done the same for the Phoenix police chief, implied an endorsement. He has implied Joe Arpaio has endorsed him -- none of which is true.

Don Harris:
No, never put it in my endorsements. I put down what people are saying about Don Harris. Each one of those letters exist. Joe Arpaio wrote a full-page letter -- I have it with me -- stating what a great guy I am in my request an officer in the Israeli army, voted an endorsement for me to be in the Army. It was under my section of skills, what people are saying of Don Harris. The Phoenix police chief through the commander in charge of Squaw Peak who used to be one of my men in the Marine Corps, wrote me a letter in how I assist the Phoenix police department. That is under what people are saying of Don Harris, never said they were endorsing me. Never. I don't need endorsements from individuals, I have been endorsed from the people. I bring the leadership and experience he talks about. I noticed very quickly, and you did also, he never answered the question. Give me the name of one of your big cases. Give it to me, Andrew. Bring it out on the table.

Cary Pfeffer:
You can have that conversation separately. I want to give you each a minute to talk about what you would do differently with the county attorney's office if you're successful.

Don Harris:
The first thing I'm going to do is see that there's equality for women in pay scale and in jobs in that office. There's going to be a day care center that I'm going to see is funded so working women can come to work and know that their children are safe while they are at work. Mr. Thomas talks about mothers who put their children in there being worse than the murder of Susan Smith. I am pro woman. I am for the women in the working force. There will be a chief deputy, a woman under my regime. There will be women commanding important functions in that office. I will see to it that this equality, I will see we have morale. Morale comes from the top down. I was a marine officer. I know about morale. This is a story of a marine against a cub scout. And you know who the marine is.

Cary Pfeffer::
All right, we've established who is in the Marines. Andrew Thomas, we'll give you a couple seconds here at the end to talk about what you would do to change it.

Thomas Andrew:
I can't allow these additional falsehoods to stand. I have never said that working women are comparable to Susan Smith. That is a lie, and I challenge him to prove that. I was raised by a single working mother. My wife is a CPA. That is not true. And this business about planning a day care center, Rick Romley and the Board of Supervisors have authorized a day care center. I fully support that. But to get back to what I would do as county attorney, what I would do is I would bring the prosecutorial resources to bear on these important crime control issues that effect us all, auto theft, identify theft, elder abuse, crimes against children. If we have somebody who can inspire confidence, that has a track record of success, I think the next county attorney can make a big difference and I intend to do that.

Cary Pfeffer:
Andrew Thomas, Don Harris, thank you both for being here.

Andrew Thomas:
Thank you.

Cary Pfeffer:
Thank you, Cary.

Don Harris:
Good to see you again, sir.

Cary Pfeffer:
Washington Post columnist E. J. Dionne visited ASU last week as part of the lecture series for the Center for the Study of Religion and Conflict. Dionne is an author of several books, including "Stand Up, Fight Back". He lectured on religion and the 2004 presidential election. Producer Larry Lemmons spoke with him.

Larry Lemmons:
our president, George W. Bush is a born again Christian. What part did it play in getting him elected and what part is it playing in his policy now?

E.J.Dionne:
I think it does what so many things seem to do with President Bush, it creates strong loyalty and strong opposition. When you talk to Evangelical Christians around the country there is a very strong sense not just that Bush is on their side but the president is one of them. On the other side, you have a growing group of Americans who you might describe as secular and who are very uncomfortable with President Bush's public God talk, if you will, and I think you will see the turnout on the one side very substantial and turnout on the other side very substantial.

Larry Lemmons:
How did Christian Evangelicalism become so influential?

E.J.Dionne:
Jerry Falwell wrote an autobiography and at the beginning of the book he apologizes. He apologizes for attacking preachers who get into politics. Of course, what he is attacking is the rights movement, he is attacking Martin Luther King and all of the black pastors who started the civil rights movement. You do have, I think on the Christian side, Christian conservative side, you had a mobilization that began in the 1970's and it was specifically in response to the abortion decision, Roe V. Wade, school prayer decision. There was dissent on the part of conservative Evangelicals that they would be marginalized in the culture. There was explicit effort, by Republicans to organize. There was a sense that the southern and democratic side in the past could be shifted over to the Republican side, so there was an explicit political agenda as well as a religious agenda.

Larry Lemmons:
The southern strategy?

E.J.Dionne:
It was called the southern strategy. You had substantial numbers of southern whites moving toward the Republican party, away from the Democratic party, but a lot of conservatives saw the opportunity to reinforce that shift, as we made peace around civil rights, to reinforce that shift to the religious convictions in connection with the people.

Larry Lemmons:
You describe yourself as a liberal Catholic. The irony is in this election we have a liberal Catholic, JFK, a lot like the liberal Catholic JFK in the '60's. The irony is that apparently his religion isn't an issue in this election.

E.J.Dionne:
The real irony is that when John Kennedy ran for president, it -- the question was, is he too Catholic to be president. Now, the issue, among more conservative Catholics is, well, Kerry isn't Catholic enough. That shows you how much of the debate has changed in 40 years.

Larry Lemmons:
Is it possible to have a separation of church and state?

E.J.Dionne:
I think there's a difference in separation of church and state and the separation of religion and politics. In the first instance, we can have rules, we do have rules that do not -- that prohibit a religious majority in any given place in the country from imposing its will on the religious minority. That's a good thing. On the other hand, religion and politics have always been in this country. You wouldn't have had an abolitionist movement, civil rights movement if you had not had religious people bringing concerns to the public square. I once had a debate with a Ralph Reed of the Christian Coalition, I said, you know, Ralph, I will absolutely defend your right to bring your religious convictions to bear in politics but please explain to me where in the gospel Jesus called for cuts in the capital gains tax.

Larry Lemmons:
But would Ralph Reed respect your right to have an opposing point of view?

E.J.Dionne:
I think so. At least we did in that particular debate that we had. But I think that's part of the problem, when people become so -- when people begin to confuse their party affiliation with their religious affiliation and when people sort of make claims on behalf of their faith that are easily contested claims. For example, Christians and Jews looking at scriptures can have genuine legitimate differences over what the scriptures are telling them to do. It's why you have a lot of progressive Christians and Jews whose sort of fundamental engagement of politics is in concerns related to social justice. You have more conservative Christians and Jews whose orientation is much for the social issues such as abortion. Those are defensible positions. I don't think anyone has a right to say one view is absolutely illegitimate.

Larry Lemmons:
In the future, who do you think religion will play a part in American politics?

E.J.Dionne:
The good thing is that even so-called Washington pundits can't predict the future with great clarity. As I say, my sense is you will obviously have a continuation of the Christian conservative movement. I think you are seeing a much more self-conscious kind of participation in politics by people who you might call religious moderates or religious liberals. I think that's going to expand. And you'll see grass roots activism both in terms of service and politics around issues of social justice and concern for the poor. Among young Americans, among Americans under 30, there is this sort of, has been this great movement toward service. Some of that is happening through the churches and the synagogues and mosques. I think you're going to see more of that.

Larry Lemmons:
Thank you very much, Mr. Dionne.

E.J.Dionne:
Thank you.

Cary Pfeffer:
Preparations are underway for the third presidential debate to be held here at ASU. The first presidential debate to be held here at ASU. The first presidential debate was held in Miami last Thursday night. Much was made of the debate restrictions demanded by both campaigns, but all in all, most observers agree it had some telling moments. Here to talk about debate style, from the Hugh Downs School of Human Communication at ASU, the director of forensics, Kelly McDonald. Kelly, thanks for coming in.

Kelly McDonald:
Thank you for having me.

Cary Pfeffer:
Let's talk about the restrictions. Before any of these events are ever held, the two sides argue it out and you get what you get.

Kelly McDonald:
The memorandum of understanding was 32 pages. They set up the ground rules. Part of that story that was omitted was that the only people who signed off on it were the two campaigns, neither the commission on presidential debates or the networks covering signed on to the memorandum. What America saw on television resembled very little of the controls, the memorandum of understanding.

Cary Pfeffer:
Everybody understood that going in, but they still wanted to put that in place.

Kelly McDonald:
Part of the contest, the jockey sport. Jim Lehrer largely lost control of the issue of followup. Most every candidate was talking over time on every question. The networks were showing the split screens and the reaction shots. We all got the debate we wanted to see, it took awhile to get there.

Cary Pfeffer:
For those of you who did not get a chance to see the debate, let's take a look at a couple minutes.

John Kerry:
This president has made, I regret to say, a colossal error of judgment. And judgment is what we look for in the president of the United States of America.

George W. Bush:
My opponent looked at the same intelligence I looked at and declared in 2002 that Saddam Hussein was a great threat. He also said in December of 2003 that anyone who doubts that the world is safer without Saddam Hussein does not have the judgment to be president. I agree with him.

John Kerry:
The president just said the F.B.I. changed its culture. We read on the front page of America's papers that there are over 100,000 hours of tapes unlistened to. On one of those tapes may be the enemy being right the next time. The test is not whether you are spending more money, the test is, are you doing everything possible to make America safe. We didn't need that tax cut, America needed to be safe.

George W. Bush:
Of course we've done everything we can to protect America. I wake up every day thinking about how best to protect America. That's my job. I work with the Director Muller of the F.B.I., he comes in my office when I'm in Washington every morning talking about how to protect us. There's a lot of really good people working hard to do so. It's hard work. I want to tell the American people we're doing everything we can at home but you better have a president who chases these terrorists down and brings them to justice before they hurt us again.

Cary Pfeffer:
Kelly, your thoughts, about a minute and a half of a cross-section of what happened during that 90 minutes.

Kelly McDonald:
I think a couple telling moments emerged. The differences in style between Senator Kerry and President Bush. The president's sort of folk wisdom, highly approachable, informal style. Talking about his job being hard work, mention the names of some of the good people who serve in the executive west wing. The senator in a much more declarative, forceful style consistent with his presentation and training as both a United States senator and former prosecutor.

Cary Pfeffer:
So you see them sort of leaning on the things, doing what they know best or exhibiting the style that they know best, I guess.

Kelly McDonald:
We are who we are, and though debates are the best chance we have for an unfiltered, unmediated encounter with the debates, the candidates' sense of authenticity and who they are consistently emerges over time with all the data we looked at historically.

Cary Pfeffer:
When you think back to the first presidential televised debate in 1960, it was looked upon as a hallmark because people who listened on the radio thought Richard Nixon won, people who saw it on television thought John Kennedy won. Since then, you can think of times where it's been more insightful perhaps than some of the candidates would like.

Kelly McDonald:
Exactly. The things that the candidates can deliver are trying to stay on message and be consistent in their theme. For the president during this debate it was about the difficult work with the war on terror and the need to continue to be vigilant and trying to pin the flip-flop argument on the senator. The senator needs to come back and shore up his record in very clear and definitive terms to make what seemed like apparent inconsistencies following consistent theme or consistent vision about his policy.

Cary Pfeffer:
We're talking about style and the specifics of the debate with you. You're not here to talk about the politics matter of it, there's plenty of other forums for that. Talk about nonverbal communication and how important that is. You mentioned the double box, the two pictures were shown on screen even though the candidates didn't necessarily want to have that happen and therefore you saw each side reacting to the other's comments. Talk a little bit that, nonverbal side.

Kelly McDonald:
The research in the communication field suggests in nonverbal cues, things like use of gestures, inflection. Things like telephones wouldn't work for us. What we do learn, as we did in 2000, the impatience of Al Gore. We got to see a moment of the kind of emotional strong reaction that the president had to Senator Kerry when he came back very strongly about the rush to war and used his own father's words against him. So those nonverbal moments do become telling moments.

Cary Pfeffer:
It's one of those things where it seems like the first debate has almost propelled the importance of the second debate. Would that be accurate? What should people look for the second presidential debate or maybe tomorrow night in the vice-presidential debate?

Kelly McDonald:
Two things. The vice-presidential debate becomes a launching pad for a test of how these two men seek to defend themselves and the issues that they have come to represent. Senator Edwards has to be able to stand on line on the issue of tort reform and the vice president, Enron and the war in Iraq. Those become telling metaphors about their leadership or potential ability to serve in the west wing.

Cary Pfeffer:
We will see what happens. Kelly McDonald, thanks very much for being here.

Kelly McDonald:
My pleasure.

Cary Pfeffer:
"Horizon" and Channel 8 are the home for the presidential debates. You can see all of them live tomorrow night. October 5th is the vice-presidential debate, as we just mentioned. Friday, October 8th, is the town hall format debate covering all issues. And the final match-up between President George W. Bush and Senator John Kerry Wednesday, October 13th. And that is the one here in Tempe. It covers domestic issues. All debates begin at 6:00 Arizona time.

Wednesday, we'll see what impact the debate will have on the City of Tempe. Thursday, Governor Janet Napolitano will drop by for her monthly visit to "Horizon". Friday, join us for the journalist's roundtable. We will not be here for "Horizon" tomorrow night because of the vice-presidential debate. You can tune in for complete coverage and then the next presidential debate will be on Friday. Thanks very much for watching. I'm Cary Pfeffer.

 

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