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October 21, 2004

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· Congressional Races;
· Sheriff's Candidate Forum
In-Studio Guests:
· Bob Ayala, candidate for Sheriff;
· W. Steven Martin, candidate for Sheriff
· Chuck Coughlin, political analyst, High Ground;
· Bob Grossfeld, political analyst, The Media Guys

>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon", tent city, chain gang, staffing the new jails, just some of the responsibilities of the Maricopa County sheriff. We'll talk with the candidates trying to unseat Joe Arpaio. Plus, Arizona senator John McCain squares off with contender Stuart Starky. It's one of the races you'll decide on when you choose who will represent you on Capitol Hill. That's next on "Horizon." Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. On November 2nd, voters will choose a president. In Maricopa County voters will also choose a sheriff. While Joe Arpaio runs his reelection campaign, two contenders vie for his job. In a moment we'll talk with those candidates, Democrat Bob Ayala and independent W. Steven Martin. First, Merry Lucero has a look at the three candidates and responsibilities of the sheriff's office.

>> Reporter Merry Lucero:
The massive operation of the Maricopa County sheriff's office includes overseeing 3,000 employees in the numerous bureaus and divisions of the administration custody and operations departments. Managing six jails, plus tent city, which is the third largest jail system in the country, and houses 9700 inmates. The sheriff also maintains various community projects and a 3200 member volunteer posse. The office must hire more than 1,000 employees to staff the new jails being built with a one-fifth of a tax voters passed in 1998 and extended in 2002. Another big challenge keeping pace with the growing population with a limited budget of $182 million. The candidates, Democrat Robert Ayala is 56 years old. He lives in Phoenix, attended Glendale Community College, was with the Maricopa County sheriff's office for 30 years and is an Arizona native. Independent candidate W. Steven Martin is 59, is from Scots bluff Nebraska, did not attend college, professional background is radio station disc jockey and has lived in Arizona for 46 years. Incumbent Republican Joe Arpaio is 72 years old. His hometown is Springfield, Massachusetts. He attended the University of Maryland. He has been the Maricopa County sheriff for the past 12 years and has lived in Arizona for nearly 30 years.

>> Michael Grant:
As usual sheriff Joe Arpaio declined our invitation to join this discussion tonight. Joining me are candidates Bob Ayala and W. Steven Martin. Gentlemen, thanks for being here. Bob, why should people vote for you on November 2nd?

>> Bob Ayala: W
ell, the citizens of Maricopa County should vote for me and quite frankly we can't afford the current sheriff and his administration anymore. We're having too many civil lawsuits, we're having to pay out a lot of money for attorney fees in those lawsuits. The next thing is, I'm 30 years experience with the Maricopa County sheriff's office. I have the background and I have the know-how to lead the sheriff's office. And, of course, the controversial tent city. I'm the only candidate from the beginning that has said that I'm going to dismantle Tent City. And with dismantling of tent city comes along my jail reform, which is going to include accreditation of operation.

>> Michael Grant:
Why should people vote for W. Steven Martin.

>> W. Steve Martin:
Michael thank you for inviting me and letting us have this opportunity to tell people why they should vote for W. Steven Martin. First of all in my career n my life, I've always tried to make a big difference in the way that people are treated. I think that it's obvious there are many issues at the Maricopa County sheriff's office that need to be corrected. In our first four years, and my guarantee is I will not run for any more than two terms, the first four years, we need to look improving the service to the community that our taxpayers pay for. You never see officers on patrol in your neighborhoods. You never see that there is actual work going on. All you see once in a while is a few people in black and white outfits walking along doing some kind of a chain gang program. We're going to focus on the big things that make a difference. Automobile theft, when the sheriff took over, when Sheriff Arpaio started, we went from 25th to 1st in the United States in stolen vehicles. We're going to put together task forces that work together with insurance companies, with the people along the borders and stop or make a dent in that. Identity theft is a major crime and it's coming up and we're going to focus on that plus many others in the next four years.

>> Michael Grant:
Let me go to last week's issue that came up, pregnant female inmates wanting an abortion. Should they be transported without a court order?

>> W. Steve Martin:

Absolutely not. It's not a hotel. It isn't where you are supposed to run someone to the doctor every time they feel bad. We would not do that unless we had a court order. It's not a part of our job to take care of them in that manner.

>> Michael Grant:
Bob, what about you?

>> Bob Ayala:
Well, as sheriff he's got to abide by the constitution, and "Roe vs. Wade" is one of the issues that's involved here with abortion. Now, I don't say that I'm for abortion, because I am of Catholic faith, but in his job he's got to abide by the constitution he's got to enforce those laws. So we'd have to look at the policies that are currently in there for that and make accommodations for --

>> Michael Grant:
But it sound to me like you would not necessarily require a court order in that situation?

>>Bob Ayala:
No.

>> Michael Grant:
Correct?

>>Bob Ayala:
No.

>> Michael Grant:
Okay. Let's go back to tent city. You already mentioned that. You want to eliminate it. Why?

>> Bob Ayala:
Yes. First of all, it's costing us money. People are dying, getting hurt, getting injured in this operation. They can easily get contraband, just throw it over the fence. They get contraband in there. One example was I was at this one speaking engagement and this lady was involved in a domestic violence case where her husband had been stalking the family, and the judge had ordered the defendant not to have any contact whatsoever with the family. He's in tent city, and a few days after his incarceration, the family gets a phone call from the dad inside of tent city. He had a cell phone in there.

>> Michael Grant:
W. Steven Martin I think you see that differently. You would continue tent city.

>> W. Steve Martin:
I certainly do. Tent city is a very cost-effective way to house nonviolent inmates or people bound over who cannot afford bail. The difference -- I would keep tent city, but we will clean it up. All of the little issues they're talking about can be taken care of with a little bit better supervision and training. We have to realize that we don't have jail space even with the two new jails. We don't have enough jail space for all of these inmates. So the ones who are in there for much lesser crimes or first-time offenders for nonviolent crimes will be in tent city.

>> Michael Grant:
Dan Saban in the primary was sharply critical of sheriff Arpaio for basically not having the personnel plans to staff those new jail facilities. Do you agree or disagree?

>> W. Steve Martin:
Staffing is an issue. The difference is if we find a way to pay our deputies a little bit more and our D.O.s, detention officers, more, they'll stay longer, they're better trained -- or the training they've got we can grow on that. So it isn't just an issue of not having enough deputies. It's paying the ones enough to stay so that we don't constantly have a turnover and we have better care.

>> Michael Grant:
Bob, as we bring on these new jail facilities, is there going to be adequate personnel to staff them, in your opinion?

>> Bob Ayala:
There's a shortage, but I have plans in my platform to change that, and with the change of leadership, more people with the plans I've got are going to one to come and work for the sheriff's office because of the change in leadership. And for this -- for the incumbent not to be here, I think it's a cowardly act, because the citizens of this county, they need to see the issues on where he stand and where we all stand, and like he's always being quoted in the papers and on television. I have 3 million people that I answer to. Well, Joe, I have some questions. Where are you?

>> Michael Grant:
One of the criticisms that's been leveled at the sheriff is that he focuses on things like, for example, prostitution stings and other high profile media kind of events instead of focusing on, for example, adequate patrolling of remote areas of Maricopa County. Legitimate criticism?

>> Bob Ayala:
Yes. Because I feel that -- well, I was at the sheriff's office for 30 years and I was a certified peace officer and I have the experience, and I can see from the way this administration is handling -- we've got 15 unsolved murders. We've gotten unsolved cases on the outlying areas of our county in the districts that are not being dealt with properly. So my plan is when I get -- if I'm elected into that office, I am going to change that.

>> Michael Grant:
On the other hand, W., many of these high profile pursuits by the sheriff have been very popular in Maricopa County.

>> W. Steve Martin:
Well, the gimmick are popular, but -- and analyzing the question on prostitution, the thing that the sheriff did was they pulled off a couple details from car theft, pulled off a couple details from drug enforcement, they worked the prostitution ring as a publicity gimmick, and it took them about six weeks prior. Once the prostitutes were arrested, they were pretty much booked that night and released on a 25 to $75 bond. It took the sheriff's office and all that manpower two more weeks. Those officers should have been on the street. They lost contact with the drug dealers. They lost contact with people who steal vehicles, who inform them. So it really cost us a whole lot more.

>> Michael Grant:
Almost out of time. Chain gangs, go or stay?

>> W. Steve Martin:
Chain gangs are out. I will do road or highway cleanup programs. They have one in Reno that's wonderful. If you're a convicted felon, you don't need to be on a highway anywhere. You will be in a cell. We'll clean up the streets with good people.

>> Bob Ayala:
Chain gangs women go, put them behind bars and start education procedures for these people to come back into society and to be able to be responsible, active member of society. So education is my point.

>> Michael Grant:
Bobbie y'all a, Democrat, thank you very much for joining us this evening, W. Steven Martin, Independent our thanks to you as well. Best of luck in the last couple of weeks. Also on November 2 ballot will be some names you recognize, some you might not. In the election for Congress, three-term Republican senator John McCain facing off with one of his opponents last Friday, Democrat Stuart Starky debated McCain at the University of Arizona. Here's a look at some of their repartee.

>> Stuart Starky:
When N.A.F.T.A. was first signed, there was a promise that in the future Congress would address the wage issue, which was left out of N.A.F.T.A. The problem that we have in America is Congress still hasn't got around to protecting American jobs or to watching the wages on the Mexican side of the border. What I would say to that worker is, you got screwed. What we need in America is a Congress and a president that cares about American jobs. As your senator, I would work to try to turn N.A.F.T.A. back to where American industry has a chance to compete.

>> Senator John McCain:
The North American free-trade agreement overall has been a significant success. If you look at Mexico, you'll see the wealthiest parts of the country of Mexico are the northern most parts. You'll see there have been higher and higher paying jobs in the MAQUILADORS. The trade between the United States and Mexico has dramatically increased. I believe in free trade. I believe American workers can compete anywhere, any time as long as the playing field is level. I believe that free trade is good for America and it's good for our neighbors. Our goal in America is to have every child in America that wants a higher education -- in Arizona they should be able to go to one of our three major universities or they should be able to go to a community college. That's really what no child left behind means.

>> Stuart Starky:
But I ask, why sit that we care about the education of a child up until the time they turn 18 and then all of a sudden we tell them it's time to start paying? Everybody would tell you, and I'm sure most Republicans who love taxes, would say to you that the more educated our people are, the more tax money they pay. So why don't we just tell everybody in America, truly, no child will be left behind and the cost of college will be included in their education the same way that 12th grade is? I have a program, and it's different, and it's new, and it's a vision. It says, let's build desalinization plants up and down the Pacific. California takes 440,000 acre-feet a year out of the Colorado River. If for every acre-foot of water they got out of the Pacific we removed them from the Colorado River, the states up and down could -- Arizona would easily get 100,000 more acre-feet of water, which through the Central Arizona Project and other tributaries we would right now be refilling our reservoirs and be refilling all the aquifers throughout the state.

>> Senator John McCain:
We're going to have to conserve. We're going to have to live differently. We're going to have to understand that subsidies to people in order to grow crops has to be phased out, and we also have to understand that we may see a radical change in our lifestyle because not only is there going to be a lack of water, we're going to be facing a very serious problem with quality of water. By the way, desalinization plants right now are incredibly, incredibly expensive, although it's an excellent idea.

>> Stuart Starky:
I think what I bring to this U.S. Senate race is to give you the opportunity to look to and expensive is $1.5 billion a week in Iraq. If we didn't do that and we have that money it wouldn't be about expensive, it would be about the future and that's what my campaign is about.

>>Senator John McCain:
As we discussed earlier, education is the key to the future of America. If we're going to compete with other countries for highly skilled jobs and provide them here in the United States, then we have to have an educated workforce.

>> Michael Grant:
Joining me to talk about this race and a couple of the congressional races, Chuck Coughlin, political analyst with high ground, and Bob Grossfeld, a political analyst with the media guys. First off, the three Senate candidates, incumbent Republican John McCain, democratic challenger Stuart Starky and Libertarian candidate Ernest Hancock. Gentlemen, good to see you.

>> Chuck Coughlin:
Good seeing you, Michael.

>> Michael Grant:
Chuck, McCain had agreed to three debates. That was the one down at the U of A. Are they still trying to put two more together.

>> Chuck Coughlin:
I think another one scheduled for up north in Flagstaff, and I think they're still trying to put one down together here, depending upon John's busy campaign schedule.

>> Michael Grant:
Admittedly, John McCain likes to debate. He likes to get out, that kind of thing, but I think this also probably indicates a level of confidence in reelection as well.

>>Chuck Coughlin:
I think that's a safe thing to say. I think it's great. I mean, as a Republican, I give Mr. Starky a lot of credit for stepping up to the plate and throwing his name and working hard to do it. I give a lot of credit to John to give his time and sit down and debate him. We're in America and that's what you ought to do, sit down and debate.

>> Michael Grant:
I take it you agree with that?

>> Bob Grossfeld:
I think there is probably as much support among Democrats for the senator as certainly there are in some areas of Republican land.

>> Michael Grant:
And also as we know he draws heavily against independents. Now, Stu Starky had run for Congress previously.

>> Bob Grossfeld:
He had run for Congress, I believe it was against Shaddegg in one of the previous incarnations of the district. And he's -- he is, in a sense a true patriot. He believes in the system. He's going to make the system operate. And I think, as Chuck said, there's something to be said for that.

>> Michael Grant:
Are there any real issues playing in this -- we obviously heard them kicking some around, but any strong issues playing in the Senate race?

>> Chuck Coughlin:
Absolutely. I think John has a position on immigration, which is a little difficult with a lot of the Republican -- much of the base of the Republican party. I think --

>> Michael Grant:
His support for the guest worker program?

>> Chuck Coughlin:
And how in that incarceration and what that means. I think there's a good deal of discussion on the conflict in Iraq and commitment of troops and resources to that part and his support of the president on that. I think that's more of a moderate issue. I don't think there I any question on the Republican side on that issue but more the independent swing Rs. So it's healthy to debate those things. You need to have the senator's attention on the issues that are important to Arizona. I think the things you talked about, water, immigration, those kind of issues that play critical roles, transportation, things that play critical roles in Arizona's future are important to have the senator's attention and Mr. Starky is providing us that opportunity.

>> Michael Grant:
The reality, though, is it's exceptionally difficult for a challenge inner any event and particularly difficult for a challenger without much money to maximize whatever the issue differences may be.

>> Bob Grossfeld:
Look, this would be virtually impossible for an undefended candidate to take out an incumbent U.S. senator, let alone somebody who is approaching institutional status nationally. So I think this is an entirely different frame of reference. This is one where if you have to put a political face on it, I suspect the most accurate face is, we'll see a measurement of Arizona support for John McCain and see how that falls out.

>> Michael Grant:
Let's turn to some of the congressional races. CD 1, a huge corner of the northeastern third of the state skirting around Maricopa County, candidates are incumbent Republican Rick Renzi, democratic challenger Paul Babbitt, Libertarian candidate John Crockett. Chuck, you know, this was generally thought that this could be a close race, but at least the most recent polling data indicates that Rick Renzi is running away with it.

>> Chuck Coughlin:
Yeah, Rick has worked very hard. I think there was some questions early on given that Rick had tantamount to moved into the district and claimed it, although he had roots in the district, came back and wanted to run here, spent a good deal of resources in a very crowded Republican field last time and won and there was a lot of question about the amount of attention he would spend to Arizona. I don't think anybody has that question, at least within the Republican side of the aisle anymore. He's back here nearly every weekend. He's very in tune with the issues. He's up on the reservation. He's in Flagstaff. He's in Pinal County. As we all know, it's one of the largest districts in the country. If you look on a website and look at Rick's district offices, I think he has more district offices than anybody in the country.

>> Michael Grant:
In fact, I would take a guess, probably bigger than 10 or 12 states, I would think.

>>Chuck Coughlin:
And he has done a great job covering it. I think that's what's reflected in some of the surveys we're seeing.

>>

>> Michael Grant:
Paul Babbitt obviously the Babbitt name very strong, at least in certain portions of Northern Arizona. Starts with a strong political base in Coconino County, but doesn't seem to be getting the kind of traction that people generally thought he would get.

>> Bob Grossfeld:
Well, he's also working against an incumbent who was clearly targeted by the Republican party for major help starting early on, and there was, if you think back, one senior bush official after another, including the president, coming in from time to time to hold hands with Rick Renzi and show the flag and all of that, plus a lot of handoff legislation in Congress. Here, you know, congressman, we'll let you take credit on this one and all of that. So when you start balancing all that out, I think -- plus the distinct money advantage that an incumbent has, things are starting to get tighter now and they'll be tighter within the next week.

>> Michael Grant:
Now, explain to me the Navajo nation tribal endorsement. The last I heard, apparently the tribe has endorsed both candidates.

>> Bob Grossfeld:
Yes. Yes. We should probably just leave it at that, but I'll give you the story, at least as it was related to me literally about 15 minutes ago. The Navajo council requires that the candidate or their representative be there to talk to them and to get their endorsement, and this happened on Monday evening, and Mr. Renzi was there, Mr. Babbitt had a prior commitment, and had been scheduled to be there on Tuesday. So on Monday they look around, they go, Renzi is the only one here, so they unanimously endorsed Renzi. Renzi leaves, the next day Babbitt shows up, at his appointed time, and they go, okay, well, Babbitt's here, so now we're going to have the vote, and that time they voted for Babbitt.

>> Michael Grant:
Is this kind -- Chuck, do you think this is classic hedging your bets.

>> Chuck Coughlin:
Crazy like a fox, Michael. I think everybody understands how important the Navajo nation support is in that part of the state and in that district. Rick's done a great job of servicing and working constituent-wise that community. I think that was reflected in that supportive vote. I think it was their -- their inclinations are probably to go elsewhere but I think it's hard to say no to a guy who has been as good to them and supportive to them over the time Rick has been.

>> Michael Grant:
Congressional district 2 takes in the northwestern corner of the state and includes the Hopi nation, parts of western Maricopa County, the candidates are incumbent Republican Trent Franks, democratic challenger Randy Camacho, and POWELL Gammill. Bob since I cut you off, I'll go back to you. This is basically a replay of the general election a couple years ago.

>> Bob Grossfeld:
Yeah, the difference I think being given a year of incumbency all of a sudden what had been a mismatch in fund raising is now even wider, and Franks as that much more to spend and it's clearly -- is clearly outspending.

>> Michael Grant:
Camacho hammering any particular issues out there?

>> Bob Grossfeld:
Support for the war on the part of Franks, the extremist voting record, and tying him with the Bush failures. I suspect in most of Arizona's congressional races, if we had balanced competitive districts, the whole tone of everything would be much, much different.

>> Michael Grant:
Trent Franks' campaign?

>> Chuck Coughlin:
You know, he came in as, I think, a lot of folks had questions, he won a Republican primary by a fairly narrow margin, a very competitive Republican primary, he seems to have assembled that base fairly well. The numbers in the district portend of Republican success in that district and I don't think it's much of a contest.

>> Michael Grant:
Chuck Coughlin, thank you very much for joining us. Bob Grossfeld, good to see you again. We'll see how it turns out although I'm not sure there is a lot of suspense here. We have other election related links on our website, including information on the ballot propositions. Our website address is www.azpbs.org. Click on "Horizon." You can also view transcripts of "Horizon" and find out about upcoming topics.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Things could be quieter at your polling place November 2nd, even with the higher turnout. We'll explain that, plus a former Arizona governor is in declining health and has been placed in a long-term facility. Those stories and more on the Journalists Roundtable Friday night at 7:00 on "Horizon."

>> Michael Grant:
Those issues and a lot more on the Friday edition of "Horizon" with the journalists' roundtable. Thank you very much for joining us on this Thursday edition. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

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