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October 14, 2004

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
Post-Debate Coverage
In-Studio Guests:


>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," a debate recap. Hear post-debate reaction from Bob Schieffer the moderator of yesterday's debate in Tempe. Also we'll take you inside the spin room where candidate supporters tell you why their guy one. In addition, we get the view of normal people who watched the debate at Wells Fargo arena and we'll tell you how hosting the debate in Tempe boosted Tempe and ASU. That's next on "Horizon." Good evening. Welcome to "Horizon." I'm Michael Grant. He had the best seat in the house. CBS News chief Washington correspondent Bob Schieffer was seated in front of President Bush and Senator Kerry asking the candidates questions last night. Producer Paul Atkinson caught up with Schieffer after the debate.

>> Bob Schieffer:
Gentlemen, welcome to you both. By a coin toss the first question goes to Senator Kerry.

>> Paul Atkinson:
Bob Schieffer moderated the final debate in one of the most contentious presidential elections in history.

>> Bob Schieffer:
I thought my job in this debate was to try to give the American people a better understanding and a better picture of just who these men are. So I wasn't trying to trip them up and get them to say something they didn't mean. I wanted to know -- I wanted people to understand exactly who they are and what they stand for. Mr. President what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who is being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States?

>> President George Bush:
I say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy…"

>> Paul Atkinson:
Schieffer asked a wide range of questions on topics ranging from jobs and healthcare to homosexuality and religion.

>> Bob Schieffer:
I must say watching these two men, I thought both of them did very well. I thought Kerry had a very good command of facts. I thought the president -- I thought especially he did well on the faith question, when I asked him how does your faith impact on policy. That could have been in some ways kind of a trick question, you know, but I thought he handled it very well. I doubt very many people are going to get mad at a man for saying, you know, I pray a lot.

>> Paul Atkinson:
One topic Schieffer hadn't originally planned on asking was an important one to Arizona.

>> Bob Schieffer:
Mr. President, I got more e-mail this week on this question than any other question, and it is about immigration."

>> Bob Schieffer:
It's not something that's gotten a lot of attention in Washington where I'm based, but, boy, these e-mails started -- you can tell when it's an orchestrated campaign and you can tell when it's people who really want to know. This was not an orchestrated campaign. But I would say that I got more e-mails about immigration than any other single subject.

>> Paul Atkinson:
The host of CBS News' "FACE THE NATION" was able to ask some follow-up questions but per debate rules couldn't make candidates answer every question.

>> Bob Schieffer:
There are a couple times when both of them I thought just ignored the question entirely, and that's when it was a little frustrating. That's when I wish I could have asked a follow-up question. I thought there were a couple times when both of them could have hit back at the other guy and scored some points and they didn't.

>> Paul Atkinson:
As moderator, Schieffer says he was not in a position to judge who won the debate. He just hopes his questions helped voters get the information they needed to cast an informed vote.

>> Michael Grant:
On the other hand it's called the spin room, or spin alley, either way, there is spin involved. There was lots of that going on last night in the big media tent next to Gammage auditorium, the site of the debate. Larry Lemmons tells us more about the spin room and how spin works.

>> Larry Lemmons:
They came... They saw... They spun.

>> Scott Stanzel:
I think the president will lay out his vision for the next four years in terms of how we continue to strengthen the economy, how we improve healthcare so we have lower costs through medical liability reform.

>> Joe Lockhart:
John Kerry has done a very effective job of holding the president accountable for his record both at home and abroad and laying out a positive vision, an alternative a choice for a new direction in this country.

>> Andrew Card:
The president has a wonderful track record on domestic policy and on our economy and he'll talk about that track record because it's built a solid foundation for us to have an optimistic future.

>> Wesley Clark:
This administration is running from its record and to use President Bush's own words, you can run but you can't hide. He can't hide from having done almost nothing for three-and-a-half years except to get into us a war we didn't have to fight.

>> Larry Lemmons:
And this is before the debate. For the reporters' convenience, or perhaps inconvenience, depending on your point of view, this structure was created partly for the facilitation of spin. So what exactly is spin? Fox news Sean Hannity and Kerry Staffer illustrate.

>> Sean Hannity:
You might -- I am going to be him for tonight. Doesn't matter how bad Kerry gets beaten tonight he is going to say Kerry wins. That's what spin is.

>> Kerry Staffer:
We wont first two.

>> Sean Hannity:
Yeah lost the second debate. The fact --

>> Kerry Staffer:
Are we going to see furious George tonight.

>> Sean Hannity:
He wants to be host. What you are going to see passion and -- are we going to see flip-flopper tonight, are we going to see the dolphin tonight, flipper?

>> Kerry Staffer:
Are we going to see furious George or smirking and scowling --

>> Sean Hannity:
Is it possible he will vote to raise taxes on the stage that.

>> Kerry Staffer: He voted to cut taxes.

>> Sean Hannity:
He's voted to weaken defense. Weaken America's defense.

>> Kerry Staffer:
Will George admit a single mistake.

>> Sean Hannity:
Eye never made one.

>> Kerry Staffer:
Have you ever made a mistake.

>> Sean Hannity:
Of course not, never.

>> Larry Lemmons:
All reporters don't agree on the value of spin. Nor do they agree on how it began. Nor do they even agree on what is spin. They do know it's become an accepted, if not hated, part of the electoral process.

>> Paul Begala:
About 20 years ago there really was no thing as spin. What happened is an AP reporter named Walter Mears, he filed the first story from each debate or each major event, and journalists having a pack mentality would crowd around Walter's typewriter, because he had furs would want to know why is your lead different from AP's. Walter would set the tone for everybody's coverage if he thought Kennedy did better than Nixon, that would drive it. So then political hacks like me started thinking, maybe if we can influence the Walters of the world --

>> Walter Cronkite:
Rare in the older days before radio that the public had any idea what the presidential candidates stood for. They did their train trips through the whistle stops, but that was a handful of people who got to actually see them, and of the very few seconds, and not debates, in the first place.

>> Paul Begala:
Now it has reached an absurd level where it's really a waste of time for the candidates, frankly and a waste of time for candidates because people think for themselves.

>> Candy Crowley:
What's interesting is I think we've come kind of full circle on spin. I think when it first started there was more intellectual honesty to it on both sides, and this was years ago. I think now it's become such a circus --

>> Larry Lemmons:
How has spin transformed the American political experience?

>> Jeff Greenfield:
I don't think it's transformed it at all. I just think it's created an enormous waste of time for political operatives and reporters. It's an exercise that's gotten completely out of control, it's become self-parody but in terms of affecting anybody's opinion, is there anybody with an I.Q. bigger than their waste line that listens to an operative of one candidate --

>> Alan Colmes:
Spin is part of the political process. They call where we are now spin alley. You pretty much know what the bush person is going to say, what the Kerry person is going to say. We already know each side won the debate. So I think that the viewer by this point is discerning enough to know this is spin and they know if they're hearing both sides -- as we say at fox news, you decide. People make up their own mind.

>> Tom Oliphant:
Well, we're sitting here in the press section. The spinning is going on over there. Going over there is an act of free will. You don't have to.

>> Larry Lemmons:
We're just wondering how spin has transformed the political process.

>> Sean Hannity:
I -- I let other people decide all that. I give my true heartfelt intellectually honest opinion. One of the problems I have is I know too much about John Kerry. I know John Kerry in spite of him him saying he never changed his position on Iraq I know he has and I can cite them and I can -- would you like me to?

>> Jeff Greenfield:
It's kind of like seven year locusts, annoying -- that's not true. Locusts can do real damage. I guess it's like psoriasis, maybe, it's annoying but not fatal.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Why is it still here?

>> Jeff Greenfield:
No idea. I don't know. I try to figure that out. I guess a whole lot of people looking for something to do with their time.

>> David Liebowitz:
I can't believe the number of people here who will tell you what it is you're supposed to think about what we're going to hear. We'll spend 90 minutes analyzing the 90 minutes of the debate and we could spend 900 hours after that with all these different folks getting their perspective and everybody has a partisan ax to grind. You have to have your detector tuned to a high level.

>> : Tom Oliphant:
What's changed is the formalizing, the creation of rooms, the evolution of the term. By fooling around with journalists trying to influence what they write, probably began in ancient Rome.

>> Tucker Carlson:
Political process is spin. It's -- sort of putting your gloss on the facts at hand. Politics is about making arguments, it's about convincing people you're right and the other guy is wrong. So spin is intrinsic to that?

>>

>> Candy Crowley:
I take serious that these people believe their candidate won for the following reasons. I don't take seriously that that's the fact of the matter. Spin has become half empty, half full and has gotten so overloaded with so many people saying all the same things that it's almost something you tune out completely.

>> Judy Woodruff:
It does make it a little harder, I think, for reporters to sort of sift through the arguments that both sides are making and I think it makes it more important than ever that reporters who cover politics don't just listen to and take for granted what they're told but that they do their homework, they call up and they get the statistics to back up what these candidates are saying, that you don't just take what is being said to you add -- at face value.

>> Jeff Greenfield:
This started out in a very informal way with people going to some people they knew, there were no cam Oz and you would say, what do you think. Sometimes you would get a halfway honest answer. The only time you get an honest answer from an operative, you call him on the phone, you've known him, and you get a quiet honest -- who is going to stand in front of the camera and say, my guy stunk, or even I guess we may have lost this one. Three days later they will they'll tell you --

>> David Liebowitz:
It makes it almost impossible for an average person, I think, to get any kind of an unfettered, unfiltered view of the process. You have to work extra to somehow tease out the truth out of all of the gunk that's being stuffed down your throat.

>> Jeff Greenfield:
I do not know how this thing got to where it is. I don't participate in it. I'm here only because the CNN cameras are here, after this debate I have to go on and talk about this. I think everybody could get more sleep if they didn't do this. But I cannot tell you why they do it. You might need a trained psychologist.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Mixed feelings about spin aside, the fact is once the debate is actually over, the real spin begins.

>> Larry Lemmons:
How was it, Mr. Rove?

>> Karl Rove:
Fantastic. Unbelievably great. The president had him on the ropes from the beginning. It was great on what they thought was going to be their turf the president was terrific.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Reverend, what will happen with another four years of President Bush?

>> Jesse Jackson:
The gap between the rich and the poor will get much wider. The Supreme Court will be stacked with extremists judges.

>> Larry Lemmons:
How did your uncle do tonight, sir?

>> George P. Bush:
I thought did he well but you're expecting that answer.

>> Terry McAuliffe:
Clearly this was a big win for John Kerry, three for three. George Bush bobbed and weaved all night.

>> Larry Lemmons:
While the message may run against the facts of the matter, it doesn't really matter what the facts are in the spin room. The message is everything. It's a dog eat doggy electoral process.

>> Triumph:
I thought the president really showed a lot of class today. I thought John Kerry, he did -- I thought the president was really caught exaggerating. He wasn't on his game. I thought John Kerry looked stunned when he -- who wants me to spin for them? Come on, I'll whore, too!

>> Michael Grant:
Okay. Now that you know more about spin, let's hear more of it from some of the biggest spinners around last night.

>> Karen Hughes:
And I think what tonight's debate showed is that the president finishest strong, you've heard a lot of they've tried to spin you from the other side that Senator Kerry has a record of finishing strong. I thought tonight was his poorest debate performance. It's clearly President Bush who can finish strong. He will talk about the future. That's one thing you don't hear much from John Kerry. You hear a lot of complaints. You don't hear about the future and where he wants to lead this country and his optimism and the fact we can create more jobs and make healthcare for accessible and affordable without putting the government in charge and leading to rationing and restrictions on what you can or cannot -- what kind of care you can or cannot get.

>> Gov. Bill Richardson:
Senator Kerry won. I believe his strength on domestic issues was apparent. His emphasis on the minimum wage, his emphasis on immigration, earned immigration, his emphasis on job creation was important. His protecting Social Security. I believe that he was on very strong ground. And I believe that he won. It's three for three and now onto getting the votes.

>> Ken Mehlman:
I think we're going to be in for 18 days of what will be a very close campaign. We've always said this will be close. We said when it we were up, we said when it we were down. The country is closely divided. For the next 18 days the American people will have to decide if they want taxes to go up or keep their taxes down, if they want their private healthcare or do they want government to take over their healthcare, do they want a strong national defense where we take the battle to the enemy or do we want a global test that even Senator Kerry couldn't explain or defend tonight.

>> Henry Cisneros:
I thought, for example, the discussion on healthcare was very clear. He showed a clear mastery of the issue and laid out exactly how his plan will work and where the money is going to come from. And I thought on the minimum wage he spoke very clearly about the plight of working families and how it's so difficult for them to make ends meet. When it came the president's turn he changed the subject to education. How does -- education is important, clearly important. But it doesn't put food on the table today or put a roof over people's heads or pay the geese lean bill.

>> Dan Bartlett:
Tonight was a clear victory for President Bush. He brought the complete package. He showed his heart, his passion, his vision for America for the next four years on the key issues facing our country. And he said there was a clear difference and I think that was clear by the end of the night, that Senator Kerry's record in the United States Senate show he's for higher taxes, more regulation, weaker defenses and that's not what America wants.

>> Rep. Ed Pastor:
This morning the last poll I saw dealing with Arizona, Kerry is about three to four points behind. So that means in this last two, three weeks that the Kerry campaign has now made Arizona a battleground state. I think this debate here in Arizona is going to again energize our community. So I think that Arizona has a very good chance of turning blue.

>> Ralph Reed:
The president was in command. He was confident. He was clear. He was calm. He had a comprehensive understanding of the issues. And I think John Kerry frankly had some real bloopers tonight.

>> Larry Lemmons:
What were they, sir?

>> Ralph Reed:
He said that the president never met with a congressional black caucus. That's a flat out lie. The president has met with the congressional black caucus in the White House.

>> Terry McAuliffe:
George Bush didn't even show up tonight. I think this was the worst -- believe it or not, I didn't think it could be worse than the first night but he didn't answer any questions. He was very evasive. John Kerry clearly looked like the president of the United States tonight.

>> Ed Gillespie:
We're coming out with incredible momentum and when the American people look at the issues that emerged tonight, Senator Kerry coming out in favor of amnesty for those who come to this country illegally, calling continually for higher taxes, more federal spending, saying that indeed he does think that we should treat terrorists acts as law enforcement matters, we did that for a long time in this country.

>> Jesse Jackson:
Mr. Bush one day will -- the picture of the King in the White House, next day sent a lawyer to the Supreme Court to kill affirmative action. Next laid a wreath at Dr. King's grave site. Next day put Pickering on the bench. A Trent Lott -- it's deception. We deserve better.

>> Gov. Linda Lingle:
I think clearly tonight you saw the difference between a president who took action and Senator Kerry who just talked about the complaints that he had about our country.

>> Rep. Raul Grijalva:
Well, you know, this is -- some people said, and many -- and incorrectly, this state was not in play anymore. Well, it's a four-point difference, probably a three-point difference. So this state is very much in play, and having the debate here just adds to the importance of Arizona and those 10 electoral votes that both men need and we are confident we're going to get to Kerry.

>> Sen. John Cornyn:
I thought the president delivered an outstanding performance. I know his first performance, some people thought it wasn't up to his usual standards, and the second one they thought he did well, but I think he really hit it out of the ballpark this time.

>> Rep. Elijah Cummings:
I enthuse he made it clear when he talked about healthcare and the fact that we can and must afford healthcare for our citizens and corrected bush to make sure it was clear it was not some government program. His comments about the minimum wage, very important because there are so many women who -- particularly single women who are working hard and not getting sufficient pay to take care of their kids. I think he made some very, very strong points with regard to education. No child left behind. The president makes a big deal of no child left behind. But yet still he refuses to fund it by $28 billion.

>> Hector Barretto:
I felt great on style, on substance, on credibility, the president did great. I think he was relaxed. He had some very funny lines but he also had a lot of tough talk about the things that this country has to do. It is a war against international terrorism. We have to win it. It is not a nuisance, it's not something we have to manage.

>> Ann Lewis:
It's another home run for John Kerry. I was particularly pleased by his answers, I thought, on the economy, on jobs, on the minimum wage, on healthcare, on immigration, in every case he has been clear, he's specific, he's talked to people about here's where we are, here's what we need to do about it, and a contrast with George Bush, who again tonight seemed to be out of touch with reality.

>> Michael Grant:
Now that we've heard from all the professionals, what did real people think about the debate? Paul Atkinson got some of that reaction at Wells Fargo arena on the ASU campus where people gathered to watch the debate.

>> Paul Atkinson:
A crowd of several thousand fills the lower level at Wells Fargo arena. President Bush supporters sit next to Senator Kerry fans, their eyes glued to a giant big screen. Unlike spectators inside nearby Gammage auditorium, these debate watchers are free to cheer on their candidates. Heather Malone wears her faith in President Bush on her sleeve, or in this case, on her arm. She grew up in a conservative Republican family.

>> Heather Malone:
So far all we've been hearing about war, Saddam, Iraq, it's nice to hear more about domestic issues, about the education.

>> Paul Atkinson:
Kylie watches the debate with her mom. She supports John Kerry.

>> Kylie Knape:
I think the debate is going very well so far. I just wish both candidates would kind of go off on a limb and stop repeating the same issues and bring up new issues that haven't been brought up in the last two dates. Is this is their final chance to say how they stand on all issues.

>> Paul Atkinson:
Supporters of Ralph Nader sit and watch in silent protest. Nader is not on the ballot in Arizona and wasn't invited to the presidential debates.

>> Robert Kilman:
It's absurd for us to call this a presidential debate since it's not really presidential. It's just the Republicans and the Democrats. There's a bunch of other candidates that are eligible to be involved in the debates, but they're not because the two party system is keeping them out. I think it's a shame for Arizona, it's a shame for America, it's a shame for democracy.

>> Paul Atkinson:
While most in attendance favor a particular candidate, Steve Lang is one of the few undecided voters watching the debate here.

>> Steve Lang:
I think we really need to sit back and really decide. I'm taking the time to weigh out each issue, see what works for me, what will work for my family, and trying to line it up with my perspective, my viewpoint.

>> Paul Atkinson:
Lang has concerns with how the president has handled a few domestic issues. He's also weary of the Massachusetts senator.

>> Steve Lang:
I think they both need to do a better job relating to the people. I think there's a tendency, as we see with all of our politicians, they -- they're all well to do. They don't associate with the working class, the middle class, so to speak, and there's a huge differentiation and I think that's one of the issues that I have to think about in my candidate.

>> Paul Atkinson:
The political science student and Gulf War veteran says it will take more than this debate to convince him to vote for but come November 2nd he'll be prepared to cast his ballot. He just hopes others plan to do the same.

>> Michael Grant:
It's been an incredible week for ASU, a Nobel prize winner, a giant football game coming up, and, of course, the presidential debate. Paul Atkinson tells us about the benefits derived from the debate by not only ASU but also Tempe.

>> Paul Atkinson:
An assortment of the Valley's movers and shakers watch the debate inside the old main building on the ASU campus. Among them, long-time television journalist and Valley resident Hugh Downs.

>> Hugh Downs:
It is a more important election than any time in my memory and I go back to when Wendel was running against Roosevelt in his third term in 1940. This is a very crucial debate. There's very strong feelings on both sides, and it's -- the outcome of sit going to be extremely important.

>> Reporter Paul Atkinson:
ASU first approached the commission on presidential debates about hosting one 12 years ago. Little did anyone realize then the significance it would hold now.

>> Terry Goddard:
I think it's tremendous for Arizona to be in the national spotlight as we are for the debates. And especially having the culminating debate. I don't know who was the genius who thought up getting the last one. Usually that's the would be prize but in this case it is the most important debate in the history of this election.

>> The last thing I said to him was speak from your heart.

>> Reporter Paul Atkinson:
The debate attracted hundreds of national and international reporters.

>> CNN Announcer:
Now live from Tempe, Arizona, site of the final presidential debate, Judy Woodruff's "Inside Politics.".

>> Paul Atkinson:
CNN and MSNBC broadcast several shows live from ASU's campus.

>>Judy Woodruff:
"…and home to Arizona State University...

>> Phil Gordan:
This created a buzz. Everywhere is Phoenix, Tempe, the Valley has become the center of the nation now, and everybody's here, and economically it's been a great boom because people are starting to see Phoenix and the Valley again, and as a Mayor, I'm just excited again that Phoenix is once again sort of the focus of the nation.

>> Paul Atkinson:
The media attention could not have come at a better time for ASU, with an economics professor awarded a Nobel prize and its undefeated football team taking on top-ranked USC.

>> Michael Crow:
I think what we're showing is we're competitive on many, many fronts, competitive academically, competitive in the national political scene and competitive on the athletic field and we're very excited about this. It's been a tremendous opportunity for our students. 15,000 students signed up for the lottery to win tickets to get into the lottery -- or into the debate. 13,000 will be at Wells Fargo arena. It's unbelievable. Lot of excitement.

>> Paul Atkinson:
Sponsors paid some $2.5 million to help offset the costs of hosting the debate while the final tab is expected to be much higher, many state leaders think the benefits were worth it.

>> Jeff Flake:
Boy, it's a big coup for ASU, it really is, 60 million people from around the country knowing ASU and where it is and what it stands for. It was just really good. So for Arizona in general, to have the debate here was just a good day for Arizona.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Well, it's been great for Arizona. I think it signals even more how we're moving forward, moving ahead. The whole nation has been focused on our state the last few days and on Tempe and ASU, and I want to really congratulate the people of Arizona state and Tempe for putting on what I think has been a seminal event in this campaign that may make the difference in the end.

>> Paul Atkinson:
The presidential debate in Tempe has ended, and the candidates head out on the campaign trail for the final two-and-a-half weeks of the race. How did the event at ASU go? Will the debate have an impact on the vote? Join us for the Journalists Roundtable Friday at 7:00 on "Horizon.".

>> Michael Grant:
And thanks for joining us on Thursday. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

 

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