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November 8, 2004
Host:
Michael Grant
Topics:
· Drought;
· G.I. Bill
In-Studio Guests:
· Sheldon Clark, vice president, Haley and
Aldrich engineering and environmental consulting firm, Tucson;
· Anita MacFarlane, former mayor, Sedona;
· George Renner, President, Central Arizona Project Board
of Directors;
· David Hoober, Director, Arizona Capitol Museum
>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon", the water levels at Lake Powell
and other area reservoirs are far below capacity, Highlighting
the concern of whether Arizona has enough water to meet its future
needs. That issue was the latest subject at Arizona town hall.
We'll talk to some town hall participants about their recommendations
to ensure Arizona has an adequate water supply. Plus, one act
of Congress enabled millions of returning war veterans to go to
school and in the process helped create America's middle class.
Now, a new exhibit profiles the accomplishments of the GI bill.
>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of Channel
8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station.
Thank you.
>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "HORIZON".
In tonight's headlines, almost a week after voters approved proposition
200, the "yes on proposition 200" campaign chairman
says he will argue in court that the voter-approved initiative
should limit more benefits than just those originally targeted.
Prop 200 was sold to voters as a way to keep illegal immigrants
from obtaining welfare benefits and voting. Now, Randy Pullen
tells Capitol Media Services that the other so-called benefits
such as disability payments, housing assistance and business licenses
should fall under its scope. But one of those who helped draft
Proposition 200 -- Rusty Childress -- says the original intent
was to limit the initiative to welfare benefits. Ultimately, the
matter will be settled in court. One Hispanic organization will
ask for an injunction before the initiative becomes law in two
weeks. Drought, water rights and water conservation, all topics
discussed at the latest Arizona town hall. The bi-annual meeting
of community, business and civic leaders focused on the challenges
the state faces with its water supply. Paul Atkinson takes a closer
look at some of those challenges.
>> Reporter Paul Atkinson:
Lake Powell at its lowest level since anyone can remember. White
rings the shore line once covered by blue water--the visible effect
of the 9th year of drought in the southwest. Hundreds of miles
south, the impact of the drought is felt by those who receive
water by the Salt River Project. The Water and power supplier
cut delivery to customers by one-third, again.
>> Bruce Hallin:
SRP, we reduced allocations for three years in a row and we haven't
done that in the history of the Salt River Project, which extends
over 100 years.
>> Paul Atkinson:
John Norton's grandfather helped found SRP. His family has been
involved with Arizona water issues for more than a century.
>> John Norton:
I can remember when I was a young man, Roosevelt dam went completely
dry in 1951. I visited the dam site in late August. All it was
a marshy thing full of dying fish. Made a great impression on
me. We got rain soon after that, and it hasn't been empty since
then. We are in a severe drought now and the people of the State
of Arizona have to realize there has to be some give and take
if we have continued dry years.
>> Paul Atkinson:
SRP relies on winter snow and rain runoff. The drought has forced
the utility to seek water elsewhere.
>> Bruce Hallin:
Right now our reservoirs are at 40% of capacity, that 40% has
a lot to do with the fact we have been maximizing the utilization
of our ground water and we also invested in interconnect facilities,
we have been introducing CAP water into the SRP system. Even with
those three resources we still had to reduce allocations.
>> Paul Atkinson:
SRP's advertising reflects the situation it finds itself in, promoting
the steps it's's taken to deal with the drought and the role the
public can play.
>> Bruce Hallin:
Our message to date has been very much focusing on: These are
the things we have done as a major water provider in the valley
to ensure there's a water supply, but now it's up to all of us,
to use that water as efficiently as possible and realize that
conservation is a way of life, not just during the drought period.
>> Paul Atkinson:
Conservation will help, but a more realistic solution is taking
place in California where John Norton still owns a farming operation.
>> John Norton:
Just a few weeks ago, the metropolitan water district signed a
contract with the Palo Verde irrigation district which is the
100,000 acre valley in Blythe to take 30% of the water on a continuing
basis to Los Angeles for the metropolitan water district and they
will dry up 30% of the Palo Verde valley on a rotating basis,
and this may be an omen for the future that we have to retire
some of the agricultural land of the southwest before we can satisfy
the enormous growth of municipal and industrial use.
>> Paul Atkinson:
The answer for Arizona isn't so easy. Right now, a third of the
state's replenishable water supply comes from the Colorado River
delivered through the Central Arizona Project. The problem, in
the deals that got the CAP built in the first place, Arizona gave
up senior water rights and is last on the list of states when
it comes to divvying up the supply. If other states start using
their full allotment, the drought may be the least Of Arizona's
worries.
>> Michael Grant:
Joining me now are three participants of Arizona's town hall.
Sheldon Clark is vice president of Haley and Aldrich, an engineering
and environmental consulting firm in Tucson. Anita MacFarlane
is the former mayor of Sedona. George Renner is also former mayor,
but he is here as the president of the central Arizona project
board of directors. George, you can be here in whatever capacity
you want.
>> George Renner:
Thank you, Michael.
>> Michael Grant:
Nice to see all of you. Thanks for stopping by. George, I can
recall a time and I know you can too, in the '70s, '80s, '90s,
senior water right status, junior water right status didn't seem
to matter a whole heck of a lot, because there were the Salt and
Verde systems, CAP, and over the last 8 or 9 years we looked at
the junior water rights with greater alarm.
>> Sheldon Clark:
Yes, we have. As the lead-in piece indicated, we're in a period
where the drought affects the Salt and Verde water sheds, not
only the valley but all the rest of the users of that and the
entire State of Arizona, all the rural areas are suffering drought.
The Colorado water shed is going through what could be the worst
drought in 100 years. It's a kind of a two-pronged effect. It's
making everyone in the water business, users, suppliers, or just
a dreamer, reevaluate where we have been in our water planning.
>> Michael Grant:
We mentioned some agricultural steps in the state of California.
Does CAP have similar arrangements with the agricultural users
on the CAP system?
>> George Renner:
We do. The current pricing structure and plan for CAP use is if
in fact a shortage occurs, we must reduce the amount of water
we take off the Colorado, agricultural will be the first to lose
their allocation, that is some 400,000 acre feet. In addition,
we're doing some recharge, maybe another couple hundred thousand
acre feet. There is a substantial cushion for the municipal users
in the Central Arizona Project. That's not to say that this drought
shouldn't make us all focus on conservation, focus on better use
of the resources that we have.
>> Michael Grant:
I'm glad -- we've really got three different perspectives at the
table. Rural Arizona, Tucson has -- and Pima County has different
perspectives and we have been talking a little bit valley. Anita,
what's the drought impact in rural Arizona? It doesn't have CAP
canals and SRP canals. What's happening?
>> Anita MacFarlane:
In much of rural Arizona, such as the Verde Valley where I'm from,
we depend on ground water for much of our supply. A lot of the
rural areas we still have concerns about where our water may be.
We don't have good geologic and hydrologic studies to tell us
where there may be more water and so we are working on that. In
Verde Valley and Verde watershed, which also includes Prescott
Valley and Prescott and Chino Valley. USCS is doing a large study
to help us find where our water resources might be. That is still
not finished and it's just beginning to bring us some information
so that we can do our water management planning. Another problem
is, in the counties and rural areas we often don't have the rules
and regulations that let us deal with some of the land use problems
that we have as far as where we put subdivisions, where there
is water, and often it's department of water resources rules that
a subdivision does not have adequate water, the counties can't
do anything about that. They are still allowed to go ahead and
build.
>> Michael Grant:
Sheldon, The Tucson situation is different, as well. I mean, for
decades, in fact Tucson I think was the largest city in the world
wholly dependent on ground water supply up until the CAP busted
through a few years back. But it's still pretty much dependent
on ground water supply.
>> Sheldon Clark:
It still is, in parts of the Tucson metro area. We have been fortunate
that Tucson water has done an excellent job in fully utilizing
their CAP allocation either through recharge or -- well, in most
instances, recharge and pumpage of mixed ground water and CAP
water for direct service. There are still many parts of Pima County
that aren't acceptable to that CAP infrastructure so there are
portions of the county that are still dependent to a large extent
solely on ground water.
>> Michael Grant: In her speech to our town hall, the governor
talked about a culture of conservation. Is there a culture of
conservation in Pima County -- you use a lot less water per capita
than we do -- or is that more attributable to how water has always
been used down there?
>> Sheldon Clark: I think it's a combination of both, Michael.
We probably on a per home basis have smaller outdoor irrigation
requirements than do some of the valley cities, for instance.
I think the big conservation goals in Arizona, particularly in
the Tucson area, has been through the reduction in outdoor irrigation,
landscape irrigation. Can we do more? I think it's critical that
we do that. The governor spoke of a culture of conservation. I
think it's critical that we not only adopt that culture but ignite
a passion for conservation, also. We start thinking about how
we save water every day.
>> Michael Grant:
Tell you what, there's a lot of growth. There's a lot of people
very much attached to the green up here. George, some of the historic
usage patterns also, these were orange groves and fig groves.
The culture of conservation doesn't exactly dominate up here.
>> George Renner:
It will not be easy. The valley primarily is developed on agricultural
land. As the farms have given way to development, the land has
been tilled, it's been farmed, it's had water placed on it. Much
easier to grow things. There is some expectation of people who
have moved here, they have been here before they saw the green,
they think they can recreate that. As Sheldon says, I think the
culture of conservation needs to start with education, native
and people who have been here a week, need to remind ourselves,
we live in a desert. This is an arid environment. We can't plan
on rain. Dry years can follow dry years can follow dry years,
just like we're in now. I think that's the first step we have
to do is to remind us all, we truly live in the desert.
>> ANITA McFarland:
And a point we talked about a lot in our panel was the education
of the general public because many of our citizens don't really
understand the problems that we're having and why they need to
find better ways to use water more efficiently to use water and
develop that culture of conservation. Starting in kindergarten
and going clear up to our senior citizens, we really need to develop
some kind of an education process so that people better understand
our concern.
>> Michael Grant:
The profile has gone up considerably in the past five, six, seven
years, has it not? I mean, the profile of the issue.
>> Anita McFarland:
I think it has. Still there are a lot of people that really do
not think about it.
>> George Renner:
If you go to any home improvement store, yesterday, today, tomorrow,
you will see stacks and stacks in the garden department of rye
seed, overseed manure encouraging all of us to put in winter lawns.
Probably the most I think visible example of the disconnect between
where we live, in the southwest, and our attempt to recreate something
that was never here to begin with.
>> Michael Grant:
On the other hand, several people point out that you don't want
the urban area to become giant heat islands either. If you have
a ton of concrete, it is going to be really hot.
>> Sheldon Clark:
The whole issue of climate change, heat islands, there is enormous
quantity of information that we don't know about drought and the
effects of drought on urban areas. And I think that's one of the
recommendations, also, that town hall should be applauded for
is recognizing that we need a think tank. I think the con census
was that the department of water resources should be empowered
to provide that planning and study data functions so we can understand
better what we're doing to our environment and what it means in
terms of water management and where our next bucket of water is
going to come from.
>> Michael Grant:
Anita, did you take up the price hammer? I mean, we frequently
go to a mandate, but price can --
>> Anita McFarland:
We did talk about the price. And, you know, there is the possibility
to do tiered pricing. That's fine if you have a municipal water
system. If you have a private water company providing water to
an area, such as in our area, they have some concerns because
if they institute that tiered pricing they may get to the point
where they are making more money than the Corporation Commission
allows them. They were saying maybe they could solve that by allowing
that excess money to go into some kind of a conservation education
program, but the corporation commission needs more education along
with the rest of us on that pricing.
>> Sheldon Clark:
I think we all agreed at town hall that we probably don't pay
enough for the water resources that we enjoy. The challenge is
going to figure out how to develop pricing structures that are
legal and consistent with the mandates of the Arizona Corporation
Commission but also give the user a better and greater awareness
of the value of the resources.
>> Michael Grant:
How about Glendale, did you guys kick some water pricing signals
back to the consumer?
>> George Renner:
For those that don't understand it, the more you use the more
you pay. Most cities have a lifeline rate or a minimum use rate.
>> Michael Grant:
Which has had some pretty stiff summer rates.
>> George Renner:
Yes. And I think that is one tool in the arsenal to develop an
efficient water conservation. Tucson has shown some very steep
tiers in their pricing rate. Conservation, I think, is certainly
one of the tools. Though it always sounds like a litany from town
hall or others who talk about what we need to change in Arizona,
I think we would be remiss if we didn't emphasize town hall's
concern about properly funding of the department of water resources.
The department was cut last year during the time of a drought,
unprecedented challenges facing water resources in Arizona and
the department charged with planning Arizona's future had substantial
reductions for the third or fourth year in their budget. With
the new legislature coming on, I would hope that governor will
make and I'm confident that she will, restoration of that funding
to an adequate level so that as Anita said, the information that
rural Arizona need can be developed now, not 5 or 10 years from
now, but now.
>> Michael Grant:
Anita, was that one of the key recommendations from your standpoint?
>> Anita McFarland:
Yes, it was. Proper funding of the rural water shed initiative
and funding of the water banking group and -- what was the other
one?
>> George Renner:
Well, I think the governor's call for virtual university.
>> Anita McFarland:
Right.
>> Michael Grant:
I am a little surprised, I mean obviously the rural areas have
not had the kind of growth that Phoenix and Tucson have had, but
you certainly --
>> Anita McFarland:
But it's starting.
>> Michael Grant:
Heavy growth in the Verde Valley. I'm surprised you haven't discovered
more water supply.
>> Anita McFarland:
That's the problem. In an area like Sedona where we have all that
red rock, we have highly fractured geology in there. And you can't
always tell if you go out and put down a well that you're going
to find water. It may be there, or it may be 20 feet over, it
may be 100 feet over, it may not be there because of that fractured
it's very difficult to find it.
>> Michael Grant:
We talked about two or three of the recommendations. What did
you think was another key recommendation?
>> Sheldon Clark:
I think the emphasis on providing areas outside the active management
areas with resources primarily through the department of water
resources to understand what are the available supplies and how
to balance those with tremendous growth. You mentioned that there
is not that much growth in the rural areas, but in terms of percentage
population, it is pretty staggering. Those portions of the state
are ill equipped to deal with that massive rate of growth. It
kind of remind me of the tragedy of the common, we run the risk
of tipping the threshold as far as how sustainable that resource
is.
>> Michael Grant:
George, almost out of time. There is some indication that Congress
may approve the big Gila water Indian rights settlement in the
next few weeks. Does that change the landscape?
>> George Renner:
I think it's anticipated. I think it will be another step toward
better management of our water resources. The tribe has a significant
amount of water. Their participation in the overall water sources
for cities and farming is critical to the valley and surrounding
areas.
>> Michael Grant:
As you know, that litigation has been going on for better than
quarter of a century. George Renner, good to see you again.
>> George Renner:
Thank you very much.
>> Michael Grant:
Anita McFarland, our thanks to you.
>> Anita McFarland:
Thank you.
>> Michael Grant:
Sheldon Clark, appreciate you doing the interview.
>> Sheldon Clark:
Thank you.
>> Michael Grant:
A new exhibit commemorating the 60th anniversary of the GI bill
opens Wednesday at the Arizona Capitol museum. The exhibit looks
at the historic legislation, the role Arizona senator Ernest McFarland
played in getting it passed, and its impact on Arizona.
>> Brenda Brandt:
It's considered to be one of the most important pieces of social
legislation in the 20th century and it allows for so many individuals,
men and women, to go to college. Individuals who would never have
the opportunity to go to college without the GI bill.
>> Nathan Madison:
We want people walking into the exhibit and look at a photograph
or think of a memory and say, oh, yes, I remember that. That hits
me right here. We wanted to get the emotional part of it.
>> Michael Grant:
Joining me now is David Hoober, director of the Arizona Capitol
museum. Thank for joining us.
>> David Hoober:
Thank you.
>> Michael Grant:
I did not realize that the GI bill was passed while World War
II was still underway.
>> David Hoober:
That's correct. The origin was in 1943 when President Roosevelt,
Ernest MacFarland, and military leaders, veterans organizations
leaders from the American Legion gathered and began to plan for
a better organized mobilization after World War II. You remember
after World War I, demand was for a bonus in World War I. They
felt they had been treated unfairly. By 1932, they were destitute.
At that time President Hoover called the military to disperse
troops. Leaders in the 1940s vowed that would not recur.
Michael Grant:
You were walking by a bust of Senator MacFarland when you got
the idea for this exhibit.
>> David Hoober:
There's a bust of Senator MacFarland just outside my office, now
it's in the exhibit, I passed it thousands of times and it hit
me this was the 60th anniversary of the GI bill, and there was
the senator. That was the impetus for the organization of this
exhibit. We show his role in the passage of the bill.
>> Michael Grant:
Why was he so key in the passage of the bill? What was the reason
for his intense interest in the subject? You have outlined obviously
the World War I history.
>> David Hoober:
He was a veteran of World War I. He saw that similar conditions
were going to prevail. If they did not have alternate plans. In
fact, he said after World War II, veterans should not be demobilized
into an apple line where they were selling apples on street corners.
>> Michael Grant:
We most associate, I think, the GI bill with the educational benefits.
Talking about going to college and that kind of thing on the GI
bill. It had a variety of other component parts. And housing being
another key element.
>> David Hoober:
Over 20 million veterans and their families have received educational
benefits. There have been over 22 million Veterans Administration
insured mortgages since 1944. Also, increased hospitalization
benefits for veterans, establishment of VA Hospitals including
the one in Phoenix, and support for small business and farm enterprises.
>> Michael Grant:
I find out a lot of stuff that I otherwise would not know, and
you were telling me that the site currently of Gammage Auditorium
was the site for veterans housing.
>> David Hoober:
There was enormous impact on colleges and universities, some welcome,
some not. Some presidents of Ivy League universities didn't want
the veterans on their campuses, they felt they couldn't survive
or they would dilute the value of the education. In fact, MacFarland
pointed out, the veterans scored better grades than the regular
student. There were thousands that came to universities and colleges.
Damage Auditorium sits on the site of original veterans housing
not far from here.
>> Michael Grant:
Veterans attributable to the explosive growth the Phoenix metro
area saw after World War II.
>> David Hoober:
The growth between World War II and the 1950s, the number of college
degrees tripled, and the population reflected that.
>> Michael Grant:
The opening of the exhibit on Wednesday. Some of Senator MacFarland's
descendents will be there.
>> David Hoober:
We will have an opening on Wednesday and the exhibit will be up
until May of 2005.
>> Michael Grant:
Thank you very much for joining us.
>> David Hoober:
Thank you.
>> Larry Lemmons:
Flu season is upon us and there's not enough vaccine to go around.
An update on the season and what you need to do to avoid the flu.
Also, a conversation with one of the architects of the Iraqi interim
constitution, Noah Feldman. And the life and times of Arizona
political icon, Stuart Udall. Tuesday night at 7:00 on Channel
8's "Horizon".
>> Michael Grant:
Wednesday, 71 small schools in Arizona have been labeled as underperforming.
We'll look at why the high failure rate. Thursday, a Veteran's
Day special, with a look at the issues faced by those serving
in Iraq and veterans who served in World War II Special. Thanks
very much for joining us on this Monday evening. I'm Michael Grant.
Have a good one. Good night.
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