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November 18, 2004

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· Water settlement with Arizona Indian tribes;
· Cardinals stadium
In-Studio Guests:
· Tom McCann, senior attorney, Central Arizona Project;
· Brad Parker, Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority


>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," it's being called the most far-reaching Indian water settlement in U.S. history. A water settlement with Arizona Indian tribes gives them control of nearly half of the water from the Central Arizona Project.

>>> Michael Grant:
Plus, we'll bring you up to date on the Cardinals' stadium construction. It's about halfway finished. That's up next on "Horizon."

>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, and welcome to "Horizon." I'm Michael Grant. Governor Janet Napolitano was released from the hospital this morning. The Governor had surgery Tuesday night to remove an ovarian cyst and her right ovary. She was taken to the hospital Tuesday after experiencing abdominal pain while at a conference on all-day kindergarten in Flagstaff on Tuesday. The cyst removed from the Governor appears to be benign. She underwent laparscopic surgery, in which small incisions are made, and that is expected to speed up her recovery.

>>> Michael Grant:
Indian tribes in Arizona have been designated 47% of the Central Arizona Project canal's annual flow. That is an agreement spearheaded by Arizona Senator Jon Kyl. The agreement gives tribes more than 650,000 acre-feet of C.A.P. water. The rest of the C.A.P. water remains for cities and non-Indian farmers. The bill also helps repay the money the state owes to the federal government for the C.A.P. canal. Two tribes got specific allocations in the agreement. The Tohono O'odham nation gets over 37,000 acre-feet. The Gila River Indian community gets 155,000 acre-feet. The bill awaits President Bush's signature to become law. Here now to tell us more about the deal is Tom McCann, the senior attorney for the Central Arizona Project. Tom, everybody breathing a sigh of relief at this point in time?

>> Tom McCann:
I think everyone is very happy that this is passed. It's been a long time in the works. Many people had doubts it could go this fast. It's done very well this session.

>> Michael Grant:
When was the first congressional -- the litigation goes back -- well, 25 years-plus. When did the bill first come to congress?

>> Tom McCann:
Senator Kyl originally introduced essentially the same bill in the fall of 2000. It was shortly after we had reached a settlement with the United States about repayment. It was near the end of the session and not much happened and no one really expected things would happen at the end of that session, but the bill was reintroduced in pretty much its current form in February of 2003, so just in this session, we've gone from introduction through hearings and mark-up and passage.

>> Michael Grant:
Certainly the reaction, most of the reaction is very, very positive and favorable to the transaction. Why so? What are the key elements of the C.A.P and for that matter other water rights users see as benefits to the deal?

>> Tom McCann:
Well, for C.A.P. it gives us finality on the allocation of the water. That's something that had been in dispute for sometime. In previous administrations there have been threats or notions that the secretary would try to take water away from the C.A.P. for Indian use, and the amount of water that's tied up with Indian use is tied to our payment. This firms that up and makes it final. As far as the cities are concerned and the farmers and other water users in the state, they were facing claims from the Gila River Indian community in the adjudication you referred to of close to 2 million acre-feet, I believe. Pretty much the entire flow of the salt and Gila River systems. What they get out of this is the ability to keep using the water supply as they've been using for many years. No longer will they have to worry about whether some of that water can be taken away through the court action to be given to the tribe. Instead, the tribe will be given replacement supply of C.A.P. water.

>> Michael Grant:
The tribes water rights go back to Supreme Court case that's almost 100 years old. Effectively, it went to the Verde Salt River Gila water sheds, did it not? That's where the Indians had this potential claim to much of the current water that's used here in the valley?

>> Tom McCann:
Right. And some would say ground water, too, that perhaps there were claims that the Indians could make to ground water and you know surrounding the Gila River Indian reservation there are a number of people pumping ground water, cities and farmers. It's interesting that it involves C.A.P. water because the claims weren't to C.A.P.water. They were to local water supplies, but those were in use and had been for many years. So as I said, this finds a way to give a replacement water supply so that the non-Indians can keep using the water they have been using.

>> Michael Grant:
The basis for the tribes rights was essentially, we were here first and using it a long time before you guys were?

>> Tom McCann:
Well, right. The Gila River Indian community, the Pima Maricopa County Indians were farming that area since -- well, I mean, I would say the mid-1800s, but I'm sure it was hundreds of years before that even, until the farmers came in upstream and other users and diverted the flow. The Supreme Court decision you referred to about 100 years ago, the winters decision, said when congress creates a reservation for an Indian tribe, it implicitly reserves a sufficient amount of water to satisfy the purposes of that reservation. So they had not only the facts that they had been farming previously, but they had a legal right through the winters doctrine to claim the water.

>> Michael Grant:
Is the federal water governments role and obligation in that part of what normalizes and firms up what the state now owes the federal government for the construction of the C.A.P. canal?

>> Tom McCann:
Right, our repayment obligation is directly tied to how much water is allocated to Indian use or federal purposes and how much is for state or non-Indian uses. And that amount was determined -- the amount of the repayment, anyway, was determined in a settlement we reached in 2000 with the United States, that assumed a certain amount of water in each of those columns. What this settlement does now, the legislation and the settlements that will follow, is to make it possible to reach that division of water and therefore finalize the repayment settlement that we reached several years ago with the United States.

>> Michael Grant:
Now, Tom, there is another aspect of the settlement and the bill passed by congress where the Indian tribes that have received these rights actually agree to lease a certain amount of water, both to the cities and non-Indian farmers; right?

>> Tom McCann:
Right. Well, they certainly have the ability to lease. They have the authority to lease. In the case of the Gila River Indian community, the agreement contemplates that they will lease approximately 41,000 acre-feet right away to valley cities, so there is definitely some leasing back to the cities of this water. So again, that provides an additional water supply right away to the cities, but there is the potential for leasing much more of that water in the future, if the parties agree.

>> Michael Grant: Have you heard any estimates at all for either the Tohono O'odham tried or the Gila tribe on how much they would actually expect to use in relation to their own agricultural operations?

>> Tom McCann:
I haven't, but my under standing is the Gila River Indian community intends to put much of their water actually to agricultural use on this reservation. They are constructing right now distribution systems to allow them to use that water as well as the water they have from the Gila River system throughout the reservation.

>> Michael Grant:
We have talked about some of the financial impacts of this, but there are other financial aspects to it as well, are there not?

>> Tom McCann:
Yes, the -- one of the things that people overlook about the bill is that it provides a financial source to settle future Indian water rights claims. It also provides a source of financing and funding to pay for the delivery of C.A.P. water to Indian tribes, and to build the distribution systems that I mentioned a minute ago, both for the Gila River community, for the San Carlos Apache tribe, for many of the tribes, and it does this by using the money that C.A.P. is paying each year for repayment. In the past that money would be paid into the treasury into a specific account, and then at the end of each fiscal year, the United States would transfer the money back into the general fund, but under the settlement legislation, the money will stay there and can be used for future settlements and these other expenses that I mentioned in Arizona.

>> Michael Grant:
There are critics of the settlement. I was reading one story, it quoted a water historian, said something to the effect of -- that 1% of the population should be able to control that much water is beyond comprehension or reason. Is it beyond comprehension or reason?

>> Tom McCann:
Well, certainly in some people's views, and there is that camp that would say that we're giving too much water to a small segment of our state population. There's the other side that would say well, we're facing claims from that segment and those claims have some league basis and we don't know where they are going to end up in court, so we're trying to do the most responsible thing for our citizens and reach a settlement that will allow us to keep using the water supplies that we've been dependent upon and solve those claims. So there's probably something to both sides. I think we'll -- personally, we'll have to wait 50 years and see how things come out before we know the answer to that question.

>> Michael Grant:
Tom are there any impacts here in terms of what either the cities or for that matter the non-Indian farmers are actually paying for water? I mean, does anyone see a water charge reduction, increase? Do things remain the same? Does it have any of those kinds of impacts?

>> Tom McCann:
Some, yes. Not so much on the actual delivery cost of water, but with respect to cities and actually the taxpayers in the three-county area that we serve, Maricopa, Pinal and Pima County, we have a taxing authority to assess 10 cents per hundred dollars of assessed valuation, but we've lowered it because of the settlement. Since this will finalize it, we can keep that lowered. The tax rate could go down for people. The amount of what we call capital charge or the portion of the water payment that's to repay the cost of building the system, that could also go down because of the settlement. The cost of actually delivering the water is not really going down because unfortunately costs are getting more expensive, energy is more expensive, but the bill also helps us lock in a lower late for agriculture for the next 25 years so that they can buy water at essentially the cost of pumping the energy.

>> Michael Grant:
All right. Well I think that covers -- any other key aspects of the settlement or the bill that we have not covered?

>> Tom McCann:
The only thing I would note is that this is a big step, getting this bill through, and thanks to Senator Kyl's leadership in getting it through, we were able to do that and representative Hayworth as well, but there's a lot of work left to be done, and we're going to be involved for the next several years probably, trying to finish up the settlements authorized in this bill. We have court approvals. We have state legislation to pursue, we have many things that have to be done still. This is an important step and hurdle but there is more work to be done.

>> Michael Grant:
I assume at some point in time it will impact the litigation that's been going on for as we mentioned, 25 years or so.

>> Tom McCann:
It won't end it because there are plenty of other claims.

>> Michael Grant:
It rids us of some claims at least.

>> Tom McCann:
Yes.

>> Michael Grant:
final question, is there anything you can do about the rainfall on the Colorado river so we can actually get some of the water?

>> Tom McCann:
Well, it's been raining pretty good lately, but we'll work on that.

>> Michael Grant:
We'll keep our fingers crossed for a wet winter. Tom McCann, senior attorney for C.A.P., thank you for coming.

>>> Michael Grant:
It's been four years since Maricopa County voters approved funding for a new Cardinals' stadium, Youth sports facilities and Cactus League facilities. And the fruit from that vote is starting to ripen. We'll talk to a spokesman from the Arizona sports and tourism authority about the progress on the facilities, but first, Mike Sauceda takes us on a tour of the Cardinals' stadium, which is almost at the halfway point in construction.

>> Mike Sauceda:
You may have noticed that it's starting to take shape.

>> Brad Parker:
For the first half of this year you've seen most of the construction has been under the ground level, and now that it's raising up and you see the top deck, the upper seating bowl, it is getting to be dramatic. In February it's going to be more dramatic because once the roof is in place it's going to be twice as high as it is now. We've reached a milestone that gets us 45% complete with the completion of the assembly of the north half of the roof.

>> Mike Sauceda:
The trusses are being constructed on the ground, held up by bright yellow supports. After the northern and southern portions of the roof are done, Parker says it will be time to raise the roof.

>> Brad Parker:
We will use massive jackstands at the top of the supercolumns that you can see that are yellow. What that will do is take these cables and winch the entire assembly in one piece if February.

>> Mike Sauceda:
For now, from what will be the cheap seats once the stadium is completed in August of 2006, you can see the top of the roof.

>> Brad Parker:
The roof that we see that's being constructed right now, the framework is done and the steel, corrugated steel is on it. The rest will be this translucent fabric that will be stretched across, like a membrane across the roof. The material that's going to be stretched across the roof let's light in but gives shade. It's lightweight and weatherproof. That will be stretched across later on.

>> Mike Sauceda:
You can see the track that will be used to open and close the roof and the motors that will move it. They are covered in cloth. A good portion of the concrete for the 65,000 seat stadium has been poured.

>> Brad Parker:
Right now 70,000 yards has been poured out of the 82,000 yards that we will need for the structural concrete. There is a total of over 90,000 cubic yards in this project. We're coming up close to the 50% mark.

>> Mike Sauceda:
They'll play on a grass field that will roll in and out of the stadium.

>> Brad Parker:
That's a big signature feature here. It saved us about $50 million in design and construction cost. It's easier to move the field out than it is to open the entire roof. So the field slides out of the stadium and it stays outside of the stadium in that bay that we saw to the southeast, and it'll stay out in the sunshine the vast majority of the time, which allows us to use the floor of the stadium for other events.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Fans will notice a square motif on the blocks. This is one of the entrances where fans will stream in and out of the stadium. They can use ramps to go to higher elevations or the escalators. On the outside of the stadium, the skin that will cover it all is already being put into place.

>> Michael Grant:
Here now is Brad Parker, spokesman for the Arizona Sports and Tourism Authority. Brad, it's good to see you again.

>> Brad Parker:
Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
How innovative is the rolling field aspect?

>> Brad Parker:
It's the first example in North America, but it is a tried and true technology that's proven itself in Europe and Japan. Even though it's new to us, it's not a new technology.

>> Michael Grant:
I'll take a guess and say in Europe it's used in relation to soccer facilities?

>> Brad Parker:
Exactly right. Similar type of facilities. You solve a lot of problems by moving the field outside of the stadium.

>> Michael Grant:
When do crews be begin on that aspect?

>> Brad Parker: That will be spring to summer of 2005.

>> Michael Grant:
Why is the roof being constructed on the ground?

>> Brad Parker:
It's pretty innovative feature in and of itself because you can multitask all the way around it. It's safer. It's more efficient to build the roof when it's on ground level and then you winch it up into place all at once. The northern half has been constructed now which gets us up to 45%, and then that allows the work on the southern end of the stadium to actually continue while they are working on the roof. So it allows the construction side to multitask quite a bit.

>> Michael Grant:
Now, is the project, as they say, on schedule and on budget?

>> Brad Parker:
You know, that's the great thing about being in Arizona. Last year we only lost two days of construction to rain and this year only one day. It's going really, really well. Reaching the 45% mark and looking to open in August of 2006.

>> Michael Grant:
Yeah, take us through the basic time frame here. Obviously the completion, August 2006, so the first season gets played and then that next season; right?

>> Brad Parker:
Well, that fall right then. August right then. You've got cardinals season beginning 2006. Now, this is what's interesting, because that very -- that turn of the year in 2007, we've got that great Fiesta Bowl that's coming up that's the dual bowl. U of A Fiesta Bowl and a week later the BCS national championship. What a great way to present the stadium nationally what, only six months after it opens. Following that, the very next year, 2008 Super Bowl. So two quick home runs in national and international stage for the stadium.

>> Michael Grant:
All right, now, Brad. I guess I didn't track the first part of that. There will be a Fiesta Bowl game and then there will be a second BCS game in 2007? I wasn't aware of that.

>> Brad Parker:
Part of the new structure of the BCS, allows the Fiesta Bowl to have two games in one year. In fact there will be only one week apart.

>> Michael Grant:
That's absolutely amazing. When did they make -- I'm happy about it, but when did they do that?

>> Brad Parker:
It's great news for the Fiesta Bowl. We all should be happy about it, especially with one of five jobs in Arizona indirectly tied to tourism, it's great to have another event like this that will be a mega event that will allows us to take the 65,000 seat stadium and expand it up to 75,000 seats. What a great showcase for the Fiesta Bowl.

>> Michael Grant:
What about some of the inside amenities? What are some of the bells and whistles here in terms of electronics, open air gathering places, those kinds of things?

>> Brad Parker:
The two biggest words for everybody is "air conditioning." When you see that in the summer, you've got the -- we've got the ability to go ahead and air condition when it is hot and you can open it up when our Chamber of Commerce weather allows us to do that. Probably the biggest advantage is that movable field. That -- when you think about it, there is, you know, how many football days a year with Super Bowl and soccer, you are talking, you know, 10, 12, 15 days out of the year.

>> Michael Grant:
Right.

>> Brad Parker:
The rest of the time that field is out, and it allows you to have all sorts of other kinds of events right there on the base of the floor, the stadium floor. One of the things that's really interesting is we're going to have a utility grid embedded in that floor itself, so instead of running electrical out to, say, exhibits, or for shows, you just simply would plug into the grid right there in the floor.

>> Michael Grant:
Let's say, though, you have a monster truck pull. Do you move the field back in?

>> Brad Parker:
No, absolutely not, have it out or -- exactly. You have it out, you put the dirt down, rodeos, motor sports, all sorts of things and then you don't have the turf people, you know, having a coronary because you are driving on their turf.

>> Michael Grant:
Sun Devil stadium last Saturday had really a very moving and touching memorial tribute to Pat Tillman. They retired number 42 at Sun Devil stadium, and if memory serves, there is going to be a plaza area at the new stadium named for Pat Tillman?

>> Brad Parker:
Absolutely. The cardinals came right out of the chute. They said we would like to have a memorial area and the entire plaza will be called the Pat Tillman memorial plaza. And we're looking at some kind of design features or some kind of area that would allow for teachable moments, member memorial type of things. It should be very powerful. We're designing that now.

>> Michael Grant:
Let's shift off to baseball. One of the other significant developments this month was the angels committing to stay for another 20 years at Tempe Diablo stadium.

>> Brad Parker:
Right, great news for the Cactus League. That's important to us. It brings in $200 million a year to the valley area. So we love -- you know, we're supporting Cactus League. That's one of our missions. The big news is that the angels are going to stay in Tempe. We're going to be renovating Diablo stadium and taking all of those -- the fractured practice areas that they have, we'll consolidate those and have new practice areas. We'll have a new clubhouse and stadium improvements. As you mentioned, all in return for a 20-year extension by the angels staying right here in Tempe.

>> Michael Grant:
Are there more moving parts going on there? I know at one point in time we had this Tinkers to Evers to Chance thing where people were going to Tucson, another team was going to Goodyear. Are there still those sorts of machinations and possibilities in the works?

>> Brad Parker:
We've heard back channel that a lot of the teams are taking a look at what's going on in our Cactus League and they started putting out feelers, hey, we'd like to come to the valley. What's interesting about it is the way Cactus League is set up, with everything close here in the valley, the players like it, the players' families like it. You don't have to travel very far. The fans love it. We had 1.3 million people that attended Cactus League games last year. So it's a great fan experience. We have heard that there are other teams that would be willing to come if there were more staples and I think that's where you are hearing some of these moves that could possibly bring in other teams.

>> Michael Grant:
In fact, we've got a map over all of some of the facilities around the valley, but what's -- what is next. You can see there the Cardinals' stadium, obviously, Cactus League facilities are displayed in orange I guess?

>> Brad Parker:
Cactus League in green.

>> Michael Grant:
In green, okay.

>> Brad Parker:
And all of those other orange cots are the youth and amateur sports projects that are the current projects. Next year there will be more after we go through another round of grant cycle, but these are the current existing and current projects that are on the board right now throughout the valley.

>> Michael Grant:
Give me a feel for the youth and amateur sports facilities in terms of what they typically consist of.

>> Brad Parker:
They run the gamut. One of the things that you look at, our mission and our role in terms of encouraging tourism is that some of the large regional type of complex that is we can help fund. They actually will attract out of town visitors for regional and national tournaments. And those dollars spend exactly like every other tourism dollar. But they will run the gamut from a regional complex to, for example, we dedicated in Laveen today a school project that built a playground and exercise area for special needs children, which was once just an empty field and had litter and everything. It now has a modern facility there and it's great for the community. So it really does run the gamut from sports to schools and everything in between.

>> Michael Grant:
Okay. And final note on the Cactus League. After Tempe is complete, Scottsdale is next up?

>> Brad Parker:
Scottsdale giants, next on the list.

>> Michael Grant:
That one, the stadium facility is there, but it's been in place for a while and needs some renovation?

>> Brad Parker:
That's part of our charter is to renovate and update these staples as they come in the rotation. So after Scottsdale, we'll go on to the next one.

>> Michael Grant:
Brad Parker, thanks very much for the update.

>>> Michael Grant:
You can visit the web site at www.azpbs.org. Once you get to the home page, click on the word "Horizon" to see transcripts or information about upcoming shows.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Governor Napolitano undergoes surgery this week. She is now recovering at home. Find out how this is affecting our state government.

>>> And Bob Fannin leaves as state Republican chairman. A former congressman would like the job. Join us on Friday for "Horizon."

>> Michael Grant:
Thank you for joining us on a Thursday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Hope you have a great one. Good night.

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