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transcripts
Transcripts
November 10, 2004
Host:
Michael Grant
Topics:
· School profiles;
· African-American Historic Property Survey
In-Studio Guests:
· Tom Horne, state Superintendent of Public
Instruction;
· Debra Slagle, president, Arizona charter schools association;
· Michael Johnson, Phoenix City Council member ;
· Barbara Stocklin, historic preservation officer, City
of Phoenix
>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," the Arizona Department of Education
releases profiles of small and alternative schools, including
charter schools. We take a look at how those schools are performing.
Plus the City of Phoenix is studying the historic value of African-American
properties dating back to the 1860s. That's next on "Horizon."
Good evening. Welcome to "Horizon." I'm Michael Grant.
For the first time, the state Department of Education has released
profiles of Arizona's 448 small and alternative schools under
the state's education accountability program, Arizona learns.
A small school is a school that has 16 or fewer students per grade
level. An alternative school is a school that serves at-risk students
such as those dealing with a teen pregnancy. Arizona has 136 alternative
schools, 129 of them has been profiled as performing, 7 as underperforming.
There are 312 small schools receiving profiles. 17 of them are
excelling. 207 performing, 71 underperforming.
>>> Michael Grant:
Of those 71 underperforming small schools, 55 are charter. Joining
me to talk about these numbers is Tom Horne, state Superintendent
of Public Instruction, and Debra Slagle, president of the Arizona
charter schools association. Welcome to you both. Tom, why is
this the first time that the profiles have been done on small
and alternative schools?
>> Tom Horne:
We do achievement profiles, we measure by grade level. If you
have 16 students, that's a statistically small enough number you
could do poorly because of a statistical anomaly because rather
than the student aren't achieving. I suggested we do the achievement
calculations and if a school appeared to be underperforming, check
against the number of students in the school as a whole and set
a standard for the school as a whole that this then you would
have larger numbers and protect against the statistical anomaly
and give the benefit to the doubt if you are looking at the school
as a whole, it's not underperforming, then we wouldn't count it
as 81 performing.
>> Michael Grant:
On the school profiles, on small schools, they are broken into
the excelling, highly performing, performing, underperforming
category we're used to with the valuation system on most. But
on the alternative schools, basically just a pass/fail standard.
Why the difference there?
>> Tom Horne:
It's very hard to judge alternative schools. They have students
that are having a lot of problems. You can't set the same expectations
for them. We've done our best to come up with a way of trying
to measure some kind of performance but you can't measure to the
same extent because you have -- they're working with kids that
have serious problems to begin with.
>> Michael Grant:
In other words, Debra, they are actively engaging a school population
that has trouble?
>> Debra Slagle:
That's correct. They're addressing the needs of students who typically
haven't been successful in a traditional learning environment,
and we certainly want to see those students make progress, but
they might not make progress at the same speed that other students
would.
>> Michael Grant:
You know, let me take a look at the half-full glass here. Just
stepping away from the numbers and taking a broad look at them,
certainly 129 performing out of 136 alternative schools strikes
me as a pretty positive number.
>> Tom Horne:
It's positive -- depending on how reliable our measurement is,
and as I say, the alternative school measurement is the one that
I have the least confidence in, with the small schools and traditional
schools I think we're doing a good job of measuring. Alternative
schools are very difficult to measure.
>> Michael Grant:
On the small schools, I won't even attempt the math here, although
Tom, you might, you've got 71 underperforming in a universe of
312. That's got to be somewhere 25%-plus. That's not as encouraging
a statistic it seems to me.
>> Tom Horne:
Smaller schools have more difficulty probably performing academically
compared to larger schools, but we're going to work with those
small schools. We have a very well developed system now of working
with underperforming schools, solutions teams, three outstanding
teachers, principals go to the school, spend three days there,
write a report. We have assisted -- assist coaches that work with
them on a continuous basis and after our first year doing we have
a good record of taking underperforming schools and increase the
test scores to where they become performing schools.
>> Michael Grant:
Debra, it's troubling that 55 charter schools are among the 71
underperforming. Around 80% or so. A what's the explanation for
that?
>> Debra Slagle:
It certainly is troubling and there may be a number of reasons
for that. I think it's important to take a look at the total picture,
though, and the fact that over 90% of the excelling schools in
the small school category were charter schools, and just over
50% of the schools in the highly performing category were charter
schools, and approximately 70% of the schools in the performing
category were charter schools. While we're concerned about the
schools in that underperforming category in that small school
-- the small school profile who are charters, we're encouraged
by the other schools in those other categories that are charter
schools.
>> Michael Grant:
Normally, though, we associate small class size with better educational
result. I mean, we're -- financially, as taxpayers, it's quite
difficult to reduce class size but we all say, hey, if we could
get down to 16, that would be really good. So what's out of whack
here?
>> Debra Slagle:
You know, it's hard to tell. Not all charter schools have smaller
class sizes, although that is one of the highlights of charters
in being able to limit class size and enrollment but I think there
are a lot of other factors that are going on. Some charter schools,
certainly not all, but some charter schools cater to students
who have not been successful in traditional learning environments
although they may not be categorized as alternative schools per
se. On the other hand, some of the most academically rigorous
schools in the state are charter schools, but there may be a significant
number of schools in that underperforming category that are serving
the needs of students who haven't been successful in traditional
learning environments.
>> Michael Grant:
In fairness, and you touched on this already, but charter schools
tend to be disproportionately represented at both ends of this
spectrum.
>> Debra Slagle:
Exactly. At both ends. Exactly. The typical student will be a
successful in a large school because they can fit in and they
can adjust. But the students on both ends of the spectrum may
not fit in a large school, and so the student and the families
of that student may seek out a chartered public school to meet
the specific needs of that student.
>> Michael Grant:
Tom, what's your read on why we have 55 charter schools in a universe
of 71 underperforming in small schools?
>> Tom Horne: Let me just say if you look at the universe
of charter schools we have something like 500 charter schools.
So it's a still a small proportion of the charter schools. Some
of the best schools in our state are charter schools. I've seen
some excellent teaching in classrooms in charter schools. The
leaders of the charter movement want us to do something to eliminate
those schools not performing, the schools that are not delivering
academically for the students give a bad name to the charter school
movement, which overall is doing an excellent job, and the leaders
want us to do something about it. So we've sent the information
to the state charter board. We're going to do our best to help
these schools the same as we do with traditional public schools
but if they continue to not performed an deliver an academic product
for the money they're getting, we expect the charter board to
revoke the charters.
>> Michael Grant:
If I recall correctly wasn't the charter board having a meeting
on this sometime very soon, perhaps next week?
>> Debra Slagle:
The state board for charter schools has their regular meeting
next week, yes, and they've addressed the issue, and the Arizona
charter school association strongly supports accountability, and
we really support holding these schools accountable. The interesting
thing is that those charters who do not come around risk a revocation
of their charter and are closed, where those district schools
that don't come around will continue to be open, and that's an
interesting and unique thing that charter schools have to deal
with.
>> Michael Grant:
Well, and from a market standpoint, obviously no one has to attend
a charter school. That's the flip side of what you were just talking
about. It would seem to me, if I'm trying to run a charter school,
and I have been labeled as underperforming, that the market may
take care of this pretty quickly and a parent will say, you know,
nice guy, but I don't think I'm going to send my kid to your school
anymore. Does it work that way?
>> Debra Slagle:
Yes, definitely it does. For my three schools, two of which are
performing and one is excelling, parents --
>> Michael Grant: You wanted to sneak that in.
>> Debra Slagle: Parents ask all the time, "how do
you perform on state mandated testing?" I think it's important,
too, though that parents don't just look at how students perform
on a test, that they look at a total picture. They go in, they
talk to other parents, they talk to teachers, they observe, you
know, to get a total picture, because the important thing is,
and the wonderful thing about Arizona, is that we have school
choice, and we can find the right match for a student and they
don't have to just go to a school and they have no choice. But
definitely the market helps address those underperforming schools.
>> Michael Grant:
Here's the flip side of the market, though, Tom, as you know,
as we have grown and there are more and more people and those
kind of things, word of mouth loses its effectiveness, you don't
have a neighbor that says, listen, don't send your kid to that
school, that's a bad school, whatever the case may be. Do these
results get broadcast widely enough so that a parent wanting to
latch onto this kind of information to do intelligent research
can, in fact, do it?
>> Tom Horne:
Yes, all of the school report cards are on our website, www.ade.az.gov.
You can get a full report, four or five-page, single-spaced report,
on every school in our state of some 1800 schools. I do want to
point out that we are holding all the schools accountable and
the traditional public schools that continue to underperform and
become labeled as academically failing schools can be taken over
by the state now and we're looking at that for the first time
this year.
>> Michael Grant:
Because this was the first -- what, we needed two or three years
--
>> Tom Horne:
Three years of underperforming a school can become academically
failing and then we are at the moment -- we have people out looking
at the schools that have been labeled as failing schools. We will
be making recommendations to the state board and one of the things
we can recommend is that the state replace the principal and some
of the teachers and have them report directly to the state rather
than the local school district until the school turns around.
So we are very serious about accountability. We are never again
in this state going to have schools where students go and don't
learn. Whether they're traditional public schools or charter schools,
they're going to be held accountable to produce proficient students
in reading, writing, math and other academics.
>> Michael Grant:
Debra, on the accountability issue, obviously the public schools,
as we pointed out, get two or three years of underperforming slack.
What's the standard in charter schools?
>> Debra Slagle:
It's the same thing. We're held to the same level of accountability,
and after the same A time, then we have solutions teams that come
in. The difference is that in district schools the school may
be taken over by the state where with charter it could be closed
down.
>> Tom Horne:
The timing may be different, too, because the charter board can
say to a school, "your charter provides certain academic
goals. If you're not meeting those goals we can revoke the charter."
Because the state is paying for a service. This is public money
going to a private entity. The service is the academic performance
of the students. If they're not performing under their charter
the charter board need not wait three years. They can look at
the academic goals, be sure they're reasonable academic goals
and if they're not being met they can revoke the charter. We're
into the first year for thinks 55 schools, and so we'll be helping
them with solutions teams but I don't think the charter board
is required to wait three years. I think if they find the school
is not performing according tights charter they can revoke that
charter.
>> Michael Grant:
We've obviously been focusing a lot on charters but there are
other public schools in this small category that are underperforming.
Since this was the first time the small schools were rated, is
this the first year of their three-year -- hopefully not March
to failing status, but year number one in that process?
>> Tom Horne:
Yes. Just to give you an example we've had with solution teams,
we had 80 schools in the second year underperforming. We thought
we would be looking at least 40 failing. All about 12 raised their
test scores sufficiently to not become failing schools and I think
a lot of that was due to the efforts of the principals and teachers
at the schools but a lot of is that due to the solutions teams
we sent out and the assist coaches to help these schools do a
better job of getting the kids to perform on their tests. We're
showing a lot of success with that help.
>> Michael Grant:
Charter school association do any sort of collegial support activity
along the same lines from a private standpoint? I mean, in other
words, could it dispatch a team to one of these schools and say,
listen, here's five suggestions for you, and here's three ways
to do it differently than you're currently doing it, et cetera?
>> Debra Slagle:
We haven't up until this point. Our strategic plan is to incorporate
services like that for our members and for others. Up until now
we focussed on helping new charter schools, but the plan in the
future is to, yes, offer those types of services. Keep in mind
that charter schools are relatively new. We just finished our
first decade of existence. So we're evolving in evolution, and
recognizing that that is a definite need, that we need to help
and support each other but I would commend the Department of Education
and the support that they've offered and superintendent Horne
and his support of charter schools and coming in. These professionals
that come in an offer suggestions are great. They're practical
suggestions that teachers can use in the classroom and that administrators
can use to help be more productive and effective instructional
leader. So the Department of Education is -- has really done an
excellent job in helping schools in that regard.
>> Michael Grant:
I have to ask this: Why would the Department of Education be the
repository of that kind of wisdom and not several hundred schools
scattered in the state who do on it a daily basis?
>> Tom Horne:
Because I was elected as state superintendent.
>> Michael Grant:
Let's bypass that answer.
>> Tom Horne:
We have gone out to recruit the very best teachers and principals
in the state to be members of solution teams, and it's been a
tremendously productive thing --
>> Michael Grant:
It's really drawing that resource from the base?
>> Tom Horne:
Yes, in fact, when I was elected the plan was to use an outside
consultant and I said, let's not do that, let's get it from our
own Arizona teachers and principals. We went out tide the very
best ones and that had a lot of additional advantages. That allowed
us to celebrate and validate the people doing a good job. Also
often teaching is the best way to learn. So in participating in
this process these people are bringing back to their own districts
a lot of information that's very good for the districts. It's
a win-win for everybody. It's a win for the schools being helped.
It's a win for the taxpayer because it's a lot more efficient
to use our own people than to use an outside consultant. It's
a win for the teachers and principals being validated as outstanding
principals and teachers, and it's a win for their district to
which they're bringing back these new schools.
>> Debra Slagle:
The other thing I've seen is there are a significant number of
practitioners at the Department of Education now, so they're bringing
their experience from being out in the field into the Department
of Education that's been helpful.
>> Michael Grant:
Debra Slagle, thank you very much for joining us. Tom Horne, good
to see you again.
>> Tom Horne:
Great to see you, Mike.
>> Michael Grant:
Speaking of schools, Booker T. Washington Elementary School in
Phoenix, one of 26 properties and two neighborhoods recommended
in a recent study for listing on the Phoenix historic property
register and the national register of historic places. Phoenix
historic preservation office conducted that survey over the past
six months. Takes a look at social, political and cultural African-American
history in Phoenix from 1868 to 1970 and identifies properties
which embody that historical significance. Here is a look at some
of those properties.
>> Merry Lucero:
In 1926, the district constructed the Phoenix union colored high
school at 415-east grant. The school was later renamed George
Washington Carver high. Over the protests of some parents the
school board selected a location in an established industrial
district. The school cost $110,000 to build. Progressive builders
association building at 2019 east Broadway road is a business
office belonging to a group of African-American builders who formed
their business in 1945 to develop housing for African-Americans
by African-Americans. The Matthew Henson public housing project
was built in 1940 with 135 units as one of three racially segregated
complexes. The Matthew project was located in the area bounded
by 7th Avenue, 11th Avenue, Grant Street and Buckeye Road. The
Del Webb company built Matthew Henson, 132 families began moving
into the new housing units on May 1st, 1941. Swindle Tourist INN
at 1021 east Washington Street is the only remaining example of
public hotel accommodations for African-Americans in Phoenix during
segregation. And the first African-American woman known to arrive
in Phoenix was Mary Green. She came in 1868 with her two children
as a servant for the Columbus Grey family from Arkansas. The Greys
were one of the wealthiest families in early Phoenix. Their home
was near 7th Street and Mohave.
>> Michael Grant:
Joining me now to talk more about the Phoenix African-American
historic property survey, Phoenix City Councilmember Michael Johnson
and City of Phoenix historic preservation officer Barbara Stocklin.
Gosh, some great photos, Michael, particularly that last one.
>> Michael Johnson:
I know, some of those sites are outstanding and I tell you, some
of the history they have in the African-American community, we
were talking earlier, just being able to preserve some of that
history is just tremendous, because if the city hadn't taken this
on, we may lose a lot of that history that we've already lost.
So it's very important.
>> Michael Grant:
That was the impetus behind this idea and the survey?
>> Michael Johnson:
Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
>> Michael Grant:
How did it happen to come up? How did you focus on it? How did
the council focus on it?
>> Michael Johnson:
I have been involved in the African-American community, I have
been involved with the elks and you hear a lot of the stories
from a lot of the elders and the seniors talking about the community
and what once existed in the community. I was always impressed
with -- as we are growing our downtown area that the downtown
area in the early 1900s was an area mainly owned by African-Americans
where they had stores, restaurants, hotels, where a lot of the
old musicians and baseball players like Willie Mayes actually
had to stay in hotels and eat in the downtown area because it
wasn't until 1954 actually that minorities were able to purchase
property north of Van Buren street.
>> Michael Grant:
You know, Barbara, you were telling me that -- some properties
will be obvious. You know that it was a black school, for example.
But a lot of research went into this because there's a lot of
other properties that it's not so obvious, correct?
>> Barbara Stocklin:
Right. There were parks where early blacks had their recreation,
had their Juneteenth celebrations. There were homes of prominent
doctors, lawyers and dentists, who were important in the community.
Educators. There were businesses. I think we saw one earlier,
the progressive builders association. They were -- they built
homes for blacks by blacks and they were -- had an incredible
influence on the community of providing quality housing for blacks
coming back from World War II.
>> Michael Grant:
Give me the basic criteria for both the national and the Phoenix
register. Are they the same?
>> Barbara Stocklin:
They are basically the same. Property basically has to be typically
50 years of age or more. The property has to have significance
either through historic events, through association with an important
person, or be important architecturally, are the three major criteria.
>> Michael Grant:
Michael, any particular -- I know there's a variety of different
properties on here, but were there any particular properties that
fell into more of those categories than others?
>> Michael Johnson:
I think there were several properties -- I'm always fond of the
elks because I'm actively involved there, and that's an organization
that's been a social organization, very involved and thriving
within the community since the 1930s, 1920s when they actually
started and began and existed. So that has been very involved.
Memorial hospital which is not on the African-American study but
there was a hospital in the area of 1300 east Washington that's
no longer there that operated back in 1920s, 1930s, and they actually
were operating to service minorities who couldn't go to any other
hospital, couldn't get any other service and remained there until
the doctor became -- was able to see and handle the patients anymore,
but that equipment that I'm told from that hospital was actually
donated to memorial hospital to help them get started when memorial
hospital started.
>> Michael Grant:
Some of the structures architecturally significant?
>> Barbara Stocklin:
Several of the churches such as tanner chapel, 1929 church, are
wonderful examples of architecture. Most of the properties are
not. They're important for their association with history.
>> Michael Grant:
What happens in the recommendation process? I assume there's a
local recommendation process distinct from the national process?
>> Barbara Stocklin:
Correct. There are 26 properties that are recommend for designation
on the city historic property register as well as the national
register. In Phoenix, it's a zoning overlay process. It's a designation
process that takes several months. Properties that are designated
are formally designated by the city council, they approve it.
There's a lot of public hearings that go into it and negotiations
and discussions with the property owners. There are some restrictions
that go along with designation. There's a design review process.
There's also grants that are available of the properties that
are listed. The national register listing is a process that goes
through the state, the Arizona State historic preservation office.
It's listed on the national register which is actually main maintained
by the national Park Service. They have their own review board
that reviews national register nominations. It's a little bit
different. That listing often takes a little longer. Properties
that are listed eligible typically for property tax reduction
as well as for some other grants.
>> Michael Grant:
Now, Barbara reminded me there are some advantages that go with
it, but there are some disadvantages that go with it in terms
of restrictions on what you can do with the property and those
kinds of things. Can an owner come into this process and say,
you know, I'm really happy that you like the historic value of
my property but I just as soon take a pass?
>> Michael Johnson:
The owner has to have -- be willing to initiate the process to
have their property designated as historic property.
>> Michael Grant:
Any other culturally driven surveys of this nature in the works?
>> Barbara Stocklin:
We do have three more in the works, one a year. This year we completed
the African-American heritage study. In 2005 we plan to do a Hispanic
heritage study. 2006, Asian-American and 2006, Native American.
>> Michael Grant:
Barbara Stocklin, thank you very much for joining us. Councilman
Michael Johnson, appreciate you as well. If you want to see the
full historic property survey we have a link to it our website.
Go to www.azpbs.org you can also find out what we have coming
up on "Horizon" and see transcripts from past "Horizon"
programs.
>> Mike Sauceda:
Over 16 million men and women served in World War II but slowly
their ranks are disappearing. At the same time the war in Iraq
is creating a new generation of war veterans. We'll talk about
the challenges faced by both generations of vets in addition you'll
get to meet one of the few Hispanic pilots from World War II.
That's Thursday at 7:00 on Channel 8's "Horizon" program.
>> Michael Grant:
And thank you very much for joining us on this Wednesday evening.
I'm Michael Grant. Have great one. Good night.
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