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March 12, 2004

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· The Journalists Roundtable
In-Studio Guests:
· Chris Coppola, "The East Valley Tribune;"
· Barrett Marson, "Arizona Daily Star;"
· Howard Fischer, "Capitol Media Services."

>> Michael Grant:
It's Friday, March 12th, 2004. In the headlines this week, voters in several valley cities went to the polls Tuesday. Some races will be decided in a runoff election.

>>> Former Arizona Supreme Court Justice Thomas Zlaket has been selected by Governor Janet Napolitano to investigate how the Department of Corrections handled the hostage crisis at the Lewis prison.

>>> And the man who started last summer's devastating rodeo fire in northern Arizona was sentenced this week to 10 years in prison. Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. This is the Journalists' Roundtable. Joining me to talk about these and other stories are Chris Coppola from "The East Valley Tribune." Barrett Marson of the "Arizona Daily Star." And Howie Fischer of "Capitol Media Services."

>>> Across the Valley on Tuesday, voters going to the polls in city elections to decide mayoral and council races along with some interesting ballot proposals. Chris, let's start in Tempe in the race to succeed Neil Giuliano. How did Hugh Hallman knock off Dennis Cahill?

>> Chris Coppola:
Yeah, and he did it with a pretty comfortable lead. That one was pretty much settled that night. You know, it was considered an upset, I think, and I think this issue that came out in the last few weeks of the campaign involving Cahill's camp securing a copy of a W-2 form from Hallman's years on the council to check on what he was paid for city expenses really did flare up and had something to do with coming back to bite Cahill.

>> Michael Grant:
It backfired.

>> Barrett Marson:
The problem is Cahill treated that as a "gotcha" to Hallman, when in reality, Hallman -- These records were readily available also, paid the money back or at least a majority of that money back, substantiating his claims that he didn't take the $350 a month--

>> Chris Coppola:
He was very quick to produce that evidence. What happened is the city manager, announced that I'm launching an investigation to see how this was provided to that campaign. It really did backfire. Another councilman, a current councilman who wasn't up for reelection, Leonard Copple, came forward and admitted, well, I was the one who formally requested it.

>> Michael Grant:
He didn't think it would be that big a deal.

>> Chris Coppola:
The information they are looking for, how much was he paid, reimbursed for expenses was available through public records requested in other forms, which we had actually obtained. It was all very --

>> Barrett Marson:
But again, the problem, they acted like the gotcha and there really was nothing there. But I think people are so put off by the fact that they obtained through whatever sources a W-2 form that should not be available to the public.

>> Howard Fischer:
There are some other interesting political implications. This is supposed to be a nonpartisan race, and we all snicker at that. The fact that --

>> Michael Grant:
I don't personally.

>>Howard Fisher:
I know Chris does.

>> Howard Fisher:
But you had very clear lines. Tempe, at least the north part of Tempe, has always been the part of the city that's considered nominally Democratic, but implications of this go far beyond. Not only the fact that Phil Gordon and the Governor endorsed Cahill, but that Hallman made an issue of Cahill's wife, Mae Burton Cahill, who is a democrat at the legislature and her record. So it became very clearly a question of whose policies do you believe. In fact, the day after election, the head of the Republican party was quick to send out a notice, look the Republicans are taking Tempe. So the question becomes, does this have further implications and what direction is Tempe heading.

>> Barrett Marson:
I really do think this is -- I don't know if you can make a larger conclusion. I think, you know, north Tempeans may not have been so happy about having Phil Gordon, Mayor of Phoenix, always in the dispute with Tempe somehow, endorsing Cahill.

>> Howard Fischer:
No, no, you are understating it. I mean, it's like being endorsed in the cold war days by somebody from the Kremlin.

>> Chris Coppola:
I think the point that Howie brought up is a very good one. The Democratic party made very clear before the election, that they were very interested in getting Cahill elected. The Tempe mayor spot, if you can have a democrat in that place, can be a springboard to something else. You know, Harry Mitchell is a democratic legislator right now, who was mayor for a long time. Mayor Giuliano is a Republican, but I think they see that as a springboard to something else.

>> Michael Grant:
Well, moving north and east to the west's most western town, a phenomenon I've never fully understood, Mary Manross almost escaped a runoff but not quite. She's got to run against David Ortega.

>> Chris Coppola:
She does, falling short of that 50% plus one of the ballot. Ortega, you know, from the city council, that actually will pit two distinct choices for the folks. What you had in Scottsdale were four candidates running for mayor, which spread the vote around a little bit. I think the big surprise there was how poorly Cynthia Lucas who had stepped down from the council last year specifically to run for did in that. I think she even finished behind --

>> Barrett Marson:
Did she get as many votes as the subsidy for Ellman guy?

>> Well, indeed --

>> Michael Grant:
Is that the reason for her demise.

>> Chris Coppola:
The speculation is that having associated herself with that plan, you know, while she was on the council, certainly came back to bite her there. She was considered a rising star, I think, on the council for a long time.

>> Michael Grant:
In fact, if I recall correctly, when she was first elected in late 1990, she was the number one vote getter, and I think she showed very strongly also a couple of years ago. So it was a turnaround. I had some trouble understanding Bob Coffman's comments of the Ellman Companies. It went down 5-1, and he was saying, well, it really wasn't that large of a defeat.

>> Chris Coppola:
It wasn't even close, which is no surprise. They had announced weeks earlier that they were pulling out of the project, perhaps seeing the writing on the wall. But they did come back with a statement somehow suggesting that had we campaigned it might have been different, you know, 4 to 1.

>> Barrett Marson:
Are people not progressive enough to pay $37 million for a Wal-Mart? Was that the problem or?

>> Howard Fischer:
It's like we look at certain elections where you have people running against dead people. You had this in '82 with Bruce Babbitt in the primary. There are a certain percentage of people who are contrarians. No matter where everyone else is going, they will vote no where everyone else is voting yes or they will vote yes, because it can't win anyway.

>> Michael Grant:
In fact on this program, We refer to that as the electoral dead guy rule. I don't know if recall that or not.

>> Chris Coppola:
Now, the future of Los Arcos remains up in the air. It's still Ellman's, and you've still got a runoff there where there's five people who still have to fill three council seats in May. So this is all still --

>> Michael Grant:
The whole balance obviously still hanging on the runoff elections. On districts, was "The Tribune" just making up this theory? Or because districts, if I recall correctly, got beaten fairly handily, and the speculation was if it had had something of an at-large representation component to it, it might have faired better?

>> Chris Coppola:
That's possible. Especially after you see how much it lost by up there. And I think now, you know, those who are advocating this, if they ever want to try it again, the next time they may include that component, maybe split it where there is three at-large seats, and then divide districts from elsewhere. There is a lot of thinking out there, if you look at cities who have gone to this, Phoenix has had it for a long time, more than 20 years.

>> Michael Grant:
20 years plus.

>>Chris Coppola:
Mesa has had it since the late '90s. If you look at a city like Scottsdale, which is really almost three distinct cities and geographically vast, maybe it's ready for it, but the voters aren't agreeing.

>> Michael Grant:
Voters didn't think so, huh? Barrett, Keno Hawker gets reelected in Mesa?

>> Barrett Marson:
Pretty handily, too. He was going against Teresa Bryce-Heames, who probably wasn't able to capture the imagination of voters. She is more of a liberal on certain issues.

>> Howard Fischer:
Let's talk about what she proposed. She proposed a property tax, which doesn't exist. She proposed a Day Labor Center, and she proposed to use your quote marks, affordable housing, which everyone in Mesa sees as poor people. A little bit more liberal? Hello?

>> Barrett Marson:
My whole thing is most of Mesa is affordable housing. I don't know how much more affordable you can make it. This is the trailer park king of Arizona.

>> Chris Coppola:
A lot of folks thought that Hawker was vulnerable because of the whole Randy Bailey property. There were a few Republicans, a lot of Republicans, Karen Johnston from the legislature thought about taking him on.

>> Barrett Marson:
And so did Tom freestone. If there was a stronger Republican presence, I think Keno Hawker was absolutely vulnerable, but against someone who is a little more liberal, Mesa wasn't going to support that.

>> Michael Grant:
You now Barrett, before you get out tonight, give me your mailing address, we want to ship all of the Mesa mail your way. I don't even want to see it.

>>> All right, John McCain will consider being John Kerry's running mate; no, he won't?

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, John was on "Good Morning America," and he has this little red light that goes on on the camera, and most of the common sense goes out the window. John, sometimes I think feels I haven't been in the news enough. So John, when asked would he be John Kerry's running mate said, I don't know, I mean, if he really wanted a quote, pro-life, free trading, nonprotectionist deficit hawk, well, why not? Which, of course, sent alarms ringing everywhere since McCain has been campaigning for reelection of the president. By the end of the day, his staff, having put John in a closet somewhere, saying, you didn't mean that, that's not what he said.

>> Michael Grant:
Do you think he just --

>> Howard Fischer:
I think John likes stirring the pot. He had a wonderful time watching everyone run around saying, you mean John is bolting the party?

>> Michael Grant:
Turning to legislative elections, John Huppenthal going to challenge Slade Meade in the state senate?

>> Barrett Marson:
Huppenthal has been in the senate before. He is taking a big chance here to challenge a city senator. They clearly, clearly have different views of things. You know, you want to talk about the more liberal of the two, but when you talk about liberal and conservative, but Slade Meade has done a job of representing that area, and he doesn't always get high marks from the conservatives for doing it. He has sided with a lot of Governor Janet Napolitano's policies. And so that is going to make him vulnerable to the right, which is people who vote in the primary.

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, and you may be correct. The get-out-the-vote in the primary is going to be crucial on this. But Slade understands that much of the district, including Ahwatukee, are young families who have children in schools, who like things like full-day kindergarten, who believe in healthcare, who believes the government has a role in daycare and protecting things. John Huppenthal is very often to the right of Attilla the Hun.

>> Michael Grant:
North Phoenix going to chant, "so please make it Kraft Macaroni and Cheese"? Do I have it straight?

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, Jim Kraft was in the legislature very briefly --

>> Michael Grant:
He was, as I remember.

>> Howard Fischer:
-- for all of two heart beats. Made no impression there and got elected the first time by handing out boxes of Kraft macaroni and cheese because it's his family that owns the company.

>> Michael Grant:
20,000 boxes if I remember right.

>> Howard Fischer:
And it got him elected, and then all of a sudden people said who is this guy and he was not elected. They redistricted up there, at least we think they have, depending on what the judge finally does, and he looked at the new districts and says this looks like an open seat here. So he figures with nobody as an incumbent, he's got another chance to go there. Now, he does have some interesting opposition in terms of Alberto Gutierrez, who was the head of the Governor's Office for Highway Safety and Alberto does know how to find free media.

>> Barrett Marson:
Is there any chance that the Kraft family from New England will come out and also support him considering he went to the Super Bowl and sat in their box?

>> Howard Fisher:
Why not?

>> Michael Grant:
Free Super Bowl tickets this time.

>>> There were several developments this week in the aftermath of the 15-day prison hostage incident at the Lewis prison. Governor Janet Napolitano appointed former Chief Justice Thomas Zlacket to head up the new investigation. Barrett, we are now going to look at the 15 days?

>> Barrett Marson:
The saying goes, the whitewash will continue, and these 15 days will be under scrutiny because they were not scrutinized by the blue ribbon panel that the Governor set up. So now, in my mind, out of the blue, this had not been talked about, at least publicly. She appointed -- the Governor appointed former Chief Justice Thomas Zlaket to look at the negotiating tactics. The role that Doris Schriro played, the role that the Governor played in ending the hostage standoff.

>> Michael Grant:
And I understand the Governor got a little honked at you when you asked her, What made you change your mind?

>> Barrett Martson:
You know, how can you get upset with this face?

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, that's not what your wife says.

>> Barrett Marson:
Well, you know, I don't know that she looks at this as a policy change. The problem is, no one of told us there would be this second phase of the investigation.

>> Howard Fischer:
This is purely defensive. Mel McDonald made it very clear that his investigation, his grand jury probe, is in fact going to be looking at this. In fact he made a statement before the grand jury was convened questioning whether you should negotiate with people who take hostages in the first place. This is defensive. So she went out there and she looked for somebody who she felt would be acceptable. The interesting thing is the senate staffers are already buzzing that Zlaket is a Democrat in Republican clothing, so we don't believe what he says either. They clearly believe that Mel is going to come up with something that says Janet was secretly pulling the strings during these negotiations.

>> Michael Grant:
Any anticipated time frame for the Zlaket probe?

>> Barrett Marson:
That's what I've been asking about. I don't know when he's going to meet, I don't know how long the meetings will last, and I'm not sure. I've been asking that question.

>> Michael Grant:
It's a probe in progress?

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, what's interesting is theoretically this will be conducted in the open just as the first round was. I want to see Tom Zlaket cross-examining Janet Napolitano on what she did. Those will be fun hearings.

>> Barrett Marson:
Well, you know, again, if he does. I will have assume he will call Doris Schriro to account for the decisions that she made.

>> The Governor did say she would leave herself open to being called.

>> Michael Grant:
Speaking of the corrections director, what status, if any, is her confirmation hearing before the state senate?

>> Barrett Marson:
Well, you know, she's got no status, really. They are going to hold off until the Mel McDonald inquiry or inquisition, as I almost called it the other day, is completed. What that will tell us, you know, when he's going to complete that, no one knows. If he's even started, we don't know, because these are secret, and the public may never know. And so --

>> Michael Grant:
She's got until June?

>> Barrett Marson:
She's got until June to get confirmed. Republicans are in no hurry. They question whether she is fit.

>> Howard Fischer:
But I think if push comes to shove, if Mel comes back and says I'm not ready, I think most of the Senate Republicans, who are a little more moderate than the House's rabid counterparts, will say it is the Governor's choice, and there is at least a colorable argument that she has much of the condition of the prison system, which she took over July 1st, was there from before. Now, of course, that's the let-Terry-Stewart-eat-the-blame philosophy.

>> Barrett Marson:
You know, that argument has been used about 48 times in the last couple of weeks by that blue ribbon panel. This is all laying at the door of Terry Stewart.

>> Howard Fischer:
You do remember, if you've watched the Simpsons, there was an episode where Homer was dying and he says I'm going to teach you lessons my son before I die, and one of them was to say, "it was that way when I got here."

>> Barrett Marson:
What culture you receive when listening to this show.

>> Michael Grant:
Leonard Gregg got sentenced for the Rodeo fire this past week.

>> Barrett Marson:
Yeah, he got 10 years, some people say that that wasn't enough. I mean, he burned down -- the fire, the Rodeo-Chediski fire, he only set the Rodeo half of that, burned down 400 homes, 100 structures or so, caused millions of dollars in damages. In fact, he -- the fine that he had to pay is $27.8 million, at $100 a month for someone who gets out of prison -- I'm not quite sure anybody will see restitution, but the judge really did come down hard on him, called this "Arizona's crime of the century." The waste, the land that is now uninhabitable or burned for generations to come.

>> Howard Fischer:
And the fact that he started it theoretically to generate some work for firefighters. This wasn't some camper by accident, and I think that's really --

>> Firefighters should know better.

>> Barrett Marson:
That's a little bit of the difference between Leonard Gregg and Linda Jo Elliott. There were complaints that she hasn't been charged.

>> Howard Fishcer:
She was an idiot.

>> Well, she was an idiot. She started a fire because she was lost.

>> Barrett Marson:
But he started it on purpose to make money for himself.

>> Michael Grant:
There is a smooth transition here, Chris. Jerry Colangelo is going to -- he is looking for a partner/buyer for the Phoenix Suns.

>> Chris Coppola:
That's right. He confirmed that this week. That he retained Lehman Brothers to search for a new minority investor and learn the business and potentially then acquire the Suns and become the new owner. Colangelo owns 18%, but he's the controlling partner and Chairman. You know it's getting to be an expensive business to be in. They have been unloading a lot of salaries. He has the Diamondbacks now. And attendance has been down for the Suns. He had set a 7-year time frame, but he did say it would be sooner if it could happen sooner.

>> Michael Grant:
I was going to say, I think he intends it to be a transition plan, but depending upon the offer that comes along, it may be a more abrupt shift than that.

>> Chris Coppola:
The thing that can't be lost in this, Jerry Colangelo, love him or hate him, he's been here for over 30 years and really committed to the Valley. So it would be quite a change.

>> Michael Grant:
Arizona Chamber of Commerce getting involved in the issue of illegal immigration. It is developing a plan that could call for legalizing people who are here illegally. Howie, what is the chamber trying to do?

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, the chamber is trying to do one of two things. They have an interest in coming up with what they see as a proactive method of dealing with this. This has been under attack because the complaint is, people would not come here if businesses didn't hire them. Now what brought this all to a head was Russell Pierce suddenly figured out, look, we've got all of these bills, including the Protect Arizona Now initiative that say we're going to deny government services, make them have ID before they vote, this will ensure that hundreds of illegals won't show up at the polls. Then he said, wait a minute, if a company is found guilty, first time you get a warning, second time you lose your state license for six months, third time we put you out of business. The Chamber said what? And their belief, with the timing of this, is we can show that (A), we have an idea, (B), that we need these people, and we should regularize the 10 million. And (C) we need a good temporary work visa program beyond what we've got now, and (D) it's not our fault, to get back to the Homer Simpson philosophy, that maybe we can kill the Pierce bill. That's what's behind this.

>> Michael Grant:
That's the real objective? Not the passage?

>> Howard Fischer:
I think that they do want regularization of the illegals who are here.

>> Michael Grant:
But that obviously is a federal issue.

>> Howard Fischer:
That's part of their point. They are saying why is the state weighing in on the federal issue. They don't want the state involved in it. Right now, the INS or what is now called the ICE, or whatever, there were a total of 16 companies in the country who were actually penalized this way. They are quite happy, I think, with the fact that the feds don't do much to companies.

>> Michael Grant:
Speaking of ICE, that Alcor bill.

>> Howard Fischer:
OH, very good.

>> Michael Grant:
Where is that one going? Do you want to stick your neck out?

>> Howard Fischer:
What's happened is that Representative Stump said, look, we've got an industry out there that's totally unregulated taking $120,000 from people and saying we will do like Woody Allen, we'll wrap you up in tinfoil and thaw you out later after you're -- they don't say "dead," they say "de-animated." And there's no regulation. The money goes in, we don't know what happens. It came -- excuse the expression -- to a head, when in fact they found out that Ted Williams was at Alcor, that they had decapitated him, that they had cracked his skull in the process, and all of a sudden, Alcor, which had been operating very nicely in the shadows became a front page issue. So Stump says they ought to be regulated by somebody. His belief is the Funeral and Embalmers Board. They say wait a second, we're not dealing with dead people. I don't know what they are if they are not dead people. So the bill that got out of the House this week says we are going to put them under the funeral board. We're going to essentially expand the funeral board to have people with expertise in cryonics. We'll allow them to keep their client list secret. But they don't even want that. Alcor really wants no regulation at all. It angered people like representative Ted Downy because he's saying all of these things about well, this is science, they shouldn't be regulated by the funeral board. They said, look, this is snake oil. This is salesmanship. These are desperate people at the end of their lives who would do anything. What happens if the company goes out of business? What happens if the power fails? Nobody is looking at how this company operates.

>> Barrett Marson:
Ted Williams could melt?

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, he's coming back.

>> Michael Grant:
Is this one going anyplace?

>> Howard Fischer:
I think it is. I think that there is a sentiment that there needs to be some regulation, because right now, they don't quite fit under the Board of Medical Examiners, because they are not working on live bodies. And they don't quite fit under the Funeral Board. I think there is a belief there needs to be some oversight.

>> Michael Grant:
Panelists, we're out of time. Thanks very much. Interesting week. If you would like to see a transcript of tonight's program, perhaps to blackmail a panelist, please visit our web site at www.kaet.asu.edu, click on the word "Horizon" and that will lead you to transcripts, links and, of course, information on upcoming shows.

>>> Next week, "Horizon" continues its break for most of the week as Channel 8 brings you special programming. We will be back next Friday with another Journalists' Roundtable at this very round table. Thank you very much for joining us for this Friday edition. I'm Michael Grant. Have an incredibly fine weekend. Good night.

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