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December 3, 2004

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· The Journalists Roundtable
In-Studio Guests:
· Yvonne Wingett, "The Arizona Republic;"
· Howard Fischer, "Capitol Media Services;"
· Phil Riske, "Arizona Capitol Times."


>> Michael Grant:
It's Friday, December 3, 2004. In the headlines this week, a temporary hold was put on Proposition 200 until arguments can be heard on constitutional concerns about the new law. Two state lawmakers are reducing business property taxes in our state. And Attorney General Terry Goddard calling for a disclosure law on gift cards that are so popular this time of year. That's next on "Horizon."

>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. This is the Journalists' Roundtable. Joining me to talk about these stories and others are Yvonne Wingett of "The Arizona Republic." Howie Fischer of the "Capitol Media Services." and Phil Riske of "Arizona Capitol Times."

>>> Michael Grant:
Proposition 200 was approved in November. A lawsuit was filed in U.S. District Court in Tucson, raising constitutional concerns about the measure. Yvonne, welcome to the show.

>> Yvonne Wingett:
Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Obviously the suit was expected. What sort of constitutional concerns are they raising about Prop 200?

>> Yvonne Wingett:
Well, MALDEF which is the same group that helped defeat California's proposition 187 is arguing three main points. The first one is that it would discourage voting for minorities. The second is that it would potentially deny undocumented immigrants the benefits that they could be eligible for under federal law, and that it could turn state and local employees into immigration authorities.

>> Howard Fischer:
And the third one is actually the strongest argument in terms of a reason to say that you really are getting into federal authority. In other words, state employees, DES workers, city police, city firefighters are not supposed to be enforcing immigration law. Here's the interesting problem for the proponents of the lawsuit like MALDEF. The initiative is passed has a severability clause. The judge could say all of that stuff is thrown out, but you keep everything else because the other arguments quite frankly are weaker. The first argument about diluting minority-voting strength is based on the argument that a requirement for a proof of citizenship is harder for Hispanics and that the requirement for identification somehow is harder for Hispanics based on what? Again, the idea that somehow you are going to have to have some identification.

>> Michael Grant:
The allegation is that Hispanics who are here legally somehow don't carry the same form of identification or have the same access to their birth certificate as you and I do?

>> Yvonne Wingett:
Or that they might be harassed for some sort of identification, more than anybody else would when they go to the polls.

>> Howard Fischer:
Now here's the problem. We're not talking about the law. We're talking about the application of the law, and for a judge to go ahead and -- he has issued a temporary restraining order which is pro forma, but for him to enjoy the law from taking effect until the case goes through the appeals process which could be months or years, requires a higher burden. It's like the other half of the argument that Yvonne was talking about, about the feeling that people who are here illegally might not go in for emergency care or let their kids go in for emergency care. Proposition 200, everyone agrees does not affect emergency medical care. So the question becomes for the judge, is anxiety a ground to withhold up a law when the law doesn't even deal with that? And that's a very high burden for a plaintiff to prove.

>> Michael Grant:
In other words, simply because I'm worried about what might happen under the law, is that grounds to grant it

>> Howard Fischer:
Exactly, because the law doesn't apply to these things. Same thing with the voting thing. If you were born in this country, whether you are red, green, brown, purple, you have a birth certificate. If you are naturalized citizen, then you have those papers. Why is it harder on Hispanics? Somebody has to prove this.

>> Yvonne Wingett:
A lot of legal experts agree with Howie's point, especially when 23 other states require that you present some form of ID when you show up at the polls. So --

>> Michael Grant:
And the judge, Yvonne, was careful to state in granting the temporary restraining order that he was not ruling on the merits of the case.

>> Yvonne Wingett:
He just needed a little bit more time to consider its merits.

>> Michael Grant:
And set it for --

>> Yvonne Wingett:
December 22nd.

>> Michael Grant: And Howie, he also gave the State some time to respond in writing?

>> Howard Fischer:
The State has until December 14th to respond. Essentially the state was informed, if you will, an hour or two before they went into court -- in fact, Tim Nelson, the Governor's attorney said he got a call at 10 minutes after 1:00 and he participated telephonically. The best thing he could come up with well, the people pass it. He didn't get much time to do legal research. This way the AG who defends the state and Tim Nelson who defends the Governor who will get more time. The question is since both of them are on record as opposing the law in the first place, the proposition, how diligent are they going to be in terms of defending it now?

>>

>> Michael Grant:
So the Governor maintains that well, yeah, I didn't support it before its passage but it's her duty to --

>> Phil Riske:
Proclaim it and defend it and the Attorney General Terry Goddard will be very aggressive in defending the law. I'd like to know from both of you, how do you think this is all going to come out whenever it's finally resolved?

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, I'm betting on the split. I'm betting on the severance. I'm betting that the issues that require state employee when someone applies for benefits, if they are not here legally, a state employee to call INS or ice as it's called now, and I'm guessing that's going to be struck down. The voting stuff is interesting because the courts tend to defer to the Department of Justice on questions of Voting Rights Act. But the Governor never signed the proclamation because she said well; the judge's order precludes me from doing that. Until the Governor signs the proclamation, the state doesn't submit the new law to the Department of Justice for pre-clearance. Until they submit that, then the Department of Justice will not look at this academically. You've got a whole question there of who really gets the first crack at the Voting Rights Act violation.

>> Michael Grant:
Of course, in the meantime, registrations are being taken without the proof of citizenship that prop session 200 would otherwise require?

>> Howard Fischer:
Exactly. That's not just a question of registration in person, but today you can go on line to the Motor Vehicle Division web site and if you have a driver's license that was issued after late '96, which means they have your signature on a digital file, you can register to vote.

>> Michael Grant:
Now, Yvonne, the whole issue is mobilizing a lot of different groups.

>> Yvonne Wingett:
Absolutely.

>> Michael Grant:
In relation to it.

>> Yvonne Wingett:
College campuses, churches, neighborhood groups, you have this -- kind of this wave of young activism that current leaders, Ronnie Lopezes, the Alfredo Gutierrezes are saying they have not seen since the Chicano movement of the '60s. That helped breed the current Hispanic power structure.

>> Howard Fischer:
Of course, as you also notice, perhaps up to half of the Hispanics, the older Hispanic's voted for this. That shows, of course, the split that I'm sure you see in the Hispanic community where you've got folks who are second and third generation here, they are more culturally attune to than the first generation folks who said they don't even eat the same stuff we do. You do have a split.

>> Phil Riske:
Are they afraid that the illegals will take their jobs?

>> Yvonne Wingett:
I think that's part of it. You always have -- you have the split in the Hispanic community. The guy that's been here for six generations doesn't like the guy who got here two years ago. The guy who got here two years ago doesn't like the guy who got there three months ago. There is political reasons, economic reasons.

>> Howard Fischer:
And the economic reasons come down to questions of who takes whose job. If the folks who are here undocumented, if you want to call them that, are the ones who are taking the jobs off the bottom, that perhaps many of the lesser educated Hispanics might otherwise be taking at a higher wage, because the businesses, you know, despite the laws requiring that you only hire people here legally, businesses find away around this.

>> Michael Grant:
We did get some spending figures on the opposition 200 forces. They laid down serious money.

>> Howard Fischer:
They laid down over $1.3 million, which is not quite twice as much as the proponents put together, including $500,000 to qualify from the ballot. They may have $270,000 during the campaign, the problem was they laid that down in about two months, and they didn't even have a campaign committee against Prop 200 until three weeks before the early voting started. By that time a lot of people had made up their minds. You could have thrown $3 million at it and I think it would have been problematic in terms of defeating it. If the foes had another six weeks

>> Yvonne Wingett:
If they had a another couple weeks and gotten on the ball instead of political infighting within that Statue of Liberty coalition, if they had gotten on the ball, they probably could have at least --

>> Michael Grant:
They might have narrowed it, but the experience in California indicates as well as a substantial Hispanic vote in favor of it, I'm not sure if they would have overturned it. I guess we'll never know.

>> Howard Fischer:
If you do a Google search on Prop 200 on a daily base circumstances you see that every major newspaper in the country has got its eye on this thing every day.

>> Howard Fischer:
You remember what was it, 1988, when we passed English only, same sort of thing, which was struck down by the courts.

>> Michael Grant:
Back to the MLK --

>> Michael Grant:
It was so narrowly interpreted by the attorney general that there wasn't much left.

>> Howard Fischer:
Sure, the attorney general would interpret something that narrowly?

>> Yvonne Wingett:
This is fueling similar movements across the country. It gave them power. It really empowered them. They are gearing up. They are hitting FARE up for money. They are getting involved. They are in 16 states. Idaho, Colorado, Florida, Texas, New York. This movement is growing.

>> Phil Riske:
I understand McCain went to the Whitehouse and sat down with the president and said look, you've got to put this immigration problem at the top of your agenda this year and get something done.

>> Howard Fischer:
But the fact is that what McCain wants done isn't what the proponents of Prop 200 want done, because they see the McCain proposal, Flake, Kolbe, as just a form of amnesty. What many of the people want is really to seal the border and even eject the 5-10 million people ear illegally now.

>> Michael Grant:
In the meantime Yvonne, a related subject, the controversial Day Labor Center up on Bell Road, some question as to whether or not it will continue?

>> Yvonne Wingett:
Yeah. Ironically, Proposition 200 began with that Day Labor Center with Randy Pullen, with Rusty Childress, Kathy McKee. Now, though, the city has determined it might not conform with city law. So city zoning official is going to go back, study the books, decide whether or not it needs to be on a more permanent basis, whether it can continue on a year to year basis in its current format.

>> Michael Grant:
Sort of a temporary permit basis?

>> Yvonne Wingett:
Opponents feel it's increasing traffic, devaluing property, you've got a bunch of men on the corner still who don't use the center. Supporters argue the opposite. They say it's brought order to a chaotic situation and you will have to have some solution for this neighborhood and this is the only way. And the clusters are popping up all over town at home improvement stores. The city is looking at an ordinance that would force employers and day laborers to use it.

>> Michael Grant:
This issue ultimately goes to the city council? Because that would be a political hot potato.

>> Yvonne Wingett:
That's what they want to avoid, especially before the next city election, but no matter what path this takes, it looks like it will land on their desks.

>> Howard Fischer:
If it doesn't land there it will be a local initiative.

>> Michael Grant:
Arizona Supreme Court has agreed to take up the case involving racial profiling?

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, according to the DPS, alleged racial profiling. This involves the citations issued by the department of public safety. Some of the defendants have said I would not have been stopped in the first place but for the fact I was guilty of the horrible crime of driving while brown. The court is trying to decide can you as a defense say racial profiling and therefore try to get the evidence thrown out? The trial judge in Yavapai County said it's irrelevant. The why of why you were stopped is irrelevant? Were you speeding, did you have alcohol in the car, whatever it is. What the Supreme Court has agreed to decide and what they will have is oral arguments early next year, is this a legitimate affirmative defense and can you knock out all of the evidence.

>> Michael Grant:
I think there is a test case brewing in between Happy Valley Road and the Carefree Highway on interstate 17 because as we know the speed limit has been dropped to 65.

>> Howard Fischer:
Can you say "speed trap"?

>> Michael Grant:
A couple of Arizona lawmakers are putting together a proposal that could cut the property tax burden on state businesses. Howie, what does the proposal involve? We have seen this one before.

>> Howard Fischer:
We've seen variants before. Arizona is one of the few states which has different assessment ratios for residential and business property. All property is assessed initially at its full cash value. What's it worth on the open market. But residential property is assessed for tax purposes at 10% of that figure versus 25% for a business. A $1 million home is on the books at $100,000. A one million-dollar business is on the books at $250,000. This is a problem when luring business to Arizona, not only because businesses depend on lower property taxes, but in Arizona, you also pay on all of your equipment. You've got a file cabinet, you pay property taxes. If you've got a typewriter. So there has been a move to try to lower the tax rate. The problem is, it's the local government is dependent on it and they need to raise a fixed amount of money. Property taxes are ballooned. If you squeeze here, it blows up there. Every year this comes up. Homeowners, the people who vote say it will be over our dead body. Steve Hoffman and Dean Martin, have come up with a plan to essentially use the excess state revenues to backfill in, either directly to the local governments that would lose this money or in a business property tax rebate, similar to what homeowners have on their school taxes. This would cost about $200 million when fully implemented. They believe that the additional revenues it generates in terms of attracting high tech firms and their equipment here would definitely make up for it.

>> Michael Grant:
And Phil, although as we've indicated this is a proposal that's within making its way through the process or not making its way through the process for a number of years, certainly the more conservative drift of the house and senate in the upcoming session might improve its chances?

>> Phil Riske:
It probably would. I'm curious to know how this all flushes out, Howie, with the citizens finance review. You asked the Governor that Wednesday and she referred you to somebody else.

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, the Governor is very good at doing that. I never --

>> Michael Grant:
The series of recommendations that came out in the spring of last year that never went any place?

>> Howard Fischer:
The number one recommendation and this was her committee was to lower business property taxes. Now, as Phil points out, the politics of this has been the proverbial third rail here unless they can find a way of holding homeowners harmless. But even some of the Democrats before they came up with this whole thing, Democrats voted for this before. The Governor has said at various times that she's willing to look at it. This could be the year for it, because if you are going to do it, you have to do it when there are excess state revenues. Now, for the Governor, however, you've got the other issue which we're going to talk about which she says maybe after I get the money for my full-day kindergarten.

>> Michael Grant:
Yeah, right. Some people are saying that the Governor will be sent wedge issues to put on the spot for '06. Senator Bennett, for example, said no, we're not going to do that. But some have mentioned that there could be some tax bills that would be -- could be considered wedge issues because they would put her on the spot and may not be something that she might favor, but they are going to send it up anyway. It might have a good chance with a more conservative body.

>> Michael Grant:
Moving from the taxing to the spending side that's a quasi-legislative panel on all-day K issued its recommendation this week, and they say yeah, we ought to continue phasing in all day K.

>> Phil Riske:
Should continue it for five years. It has the support of many, if not most of conservative members of the legislature. It's a question of you've got some budget people, appropriations committee, president Bob Burns saying the money is not there. It's going to cot $500 million for five years. So the prediction among most of the legislatures I've talked to is that yes, it will be expanded and most likely for three to five years and the Governor will win this one.

>> Michael Grant:
The committee, Howie week, really didn't look that much at whether to continue the implementation, it looked at how.

>> Howard Fischer:
Well, what happened is you remember the Governor came in and asked for full-day kindergarten, a $200 million price tag. The lawmakers when they agreed to adopt the first year, they said we will make this commitment, if you will, to the five-year phase-in and all we need to figure out is where does the money come from. So for most of the committee member's perspective that's all their charge is, is the money there. They concluded that the money would be there somewhere in the budget, as opposed to taking it from some other programs. Bob Burns said if you want the money, here, we've got other education programs having to do with the way schools are funded. The committee said no, we think the growth of the state revenue is going to be enough. Again, you know, right now, the economy is looming.

>> Yvonne Wingett:
How much is it going to cost?

>> Howard Fischer:
They figure that going one more year would probably be another $30 million. But eventually it's $200 million a year plus the one-time captain call costs of building more kindergarten classrooms.

>> Michael Grant:
They pegged that at $72 million for the capital side.

>> Howard Fischer:
Is the money going to be there if we don't get it again? Probably.

>> Michael Grant:
Speaking of the capitol, the nation's capitol, Phil, Governor Napolitano is head there had next week to talk to --

>> Phil Riske:
Next week. She says part of her trip, although her public schedule gives no detail, will be to drop by the Pentagon, talk to the brass about the list of recommended base closures that will be sent to congress for approval next year. She was not all that forthcoming on what she was going to present to the brass at the Pentagon, but an educated guess would tell you that she will tell them that the military industry in Arizona is worth $5.7 billion a year to the Arizona economy and the state is doing everything it can from to prevent further encroachment of commercial and residential developments around the bases, which could be a reason that Brack would use to close, for instance, Luke, where the community growth around that base has just been phenomenal.

>> Michael Grant:
Well, in fact, maybe some bills expected in the next legislative session to restore some of the attorney general's powers to police the level of encroachment that occurs?

>> Phil Riske:
In fact, the legislature over the past 26 years has started this process of protecting the military bases. More recently in past four or five years, they gave the AG authority to oversee, even to the extent of going to court, if local governments approved land use planning and building codes that were not compatible with the law or compatible with the mission of the base, two bills passed this past session that deluded, if not gut diluted, if not gutted some of the AG's power, so negotiations are going on to at least give him the right to go to court back.

>> Michael Grant:
Almost out of time, but the attorney general wants to do something about these flaky gift cards?

>> Howard Fischer:
These are wonderful. Gift cards replaced what used to be gift certificates. You'd get one, put it in your wallet and spend it. Here's the deal. Many companies have decided you buy a $50 gift card, and if the person gets it and doesn't use it within six months, we take off an administrative fee, $2.50 a month. Guess what, you leave the card in your wallet too long, it disappears. It turns to dust. Terry Goddard said that he wants 1078 sort of disclosure so people big the card and the people receiving the card understand that. Now Barbara Leff who heads the senate commerce committee said she wants to ban the fees entirely and say if you by a $50 card, it ought to be worth $50.

>> Michael Grant:
All right, panelists. We're out of time. If you would like to see a transcript of tonight's program, please visit the web site. It is at www.azpbs.org. When you get there, click on the word "Horizon." That is going to lead to you transcripts, links and information on upcoming shows. Incidentally, there are none next week. "Horizon" will be taking a break through Thursday next week as channel 8 brings you special programming in sharp contrast to this one, but please join us next week for another edition to the Friday Journalists' Roundtable when we'll kick around the various issues. Thanks very much for being here this Friday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have an incredibly fine weekend. Good night.

 

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