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December 2, 2004

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· First Thursday: The Governor on HORIZON;
· Pipeline Safety
In-Studio Guests:
· Arizona State Governor Janet Napolitano;
· Arizona Corporation Commissioner Kris Mayes


>> Michael Grant:
" Tonight on "Horizon," Governor Janet Napolitano wasted no time getting back to work following surgery. Proposition 200 opponents have filed a lawsuit in an effort to block that controversial measure. And the governor faces a fight over her all-day kindergarten plan. We'll talk to Governor Napolitano about those issues next on "Horizon."

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening. I'm Michael Grant. Tuesday opponents of Proposition 200, the measure aimed at illegal immigrants, filed a suit in federal court to try to block the measure from becoming law. The opponents say the initiative violates a number of constitutional principles. That's one issue we'll be discussing with Governor Janet Napolitano on first Thursday, the governor on "Horizon." Here now is the governor. How are you feeling?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Feeling great thanks.

>> Michael Grant:
You didn't feel well in Flagstaff. You got back here to Phoenix and decided it was something other than bad food, I guess.

>> Janet Napolitano:
I was up in Flagstaff doing a whole day's worth of events, including dedicating a new building at Northern Arizona University and just was feeling rotten and more rotten and more rotten and came back here and said I should get this checked out. Turned out I needed emergency surgery. Lots of people called, wrote, e-mailed afterwards just to express their sympathies, even those sometimes political opposites from me. I was grateful for that.

>> Michael Grant:
I guess when you're governor they don't necessarily say, well, we're not going to treat you until you meet the co-pay requirements?

>> Janet Napolitano:
They do take a Xerox of your insurance card. Nobody gets out of that. But it had turned into a fairly acute situation so I got in fairly quickly.

>> Michael Grant:
Incidentally, the general consensus in the pressroom and also I understand on the 9th floor was that if it had been any of us we at least would have taken the weekend off. But I guess you didn't feel comfortable with that?

>> Janet Napolitano:
You know, I'm just not that kind. I just as soon get back on the horse and start riding and we did that. This is a busy of time of year for us in the Governor’s office. We're working on the budget, legislative packages for the next session, we're dealing -- trying to figure out what Congress did in the appropriations bill and how that affects us here and dealing with a myriad of other issues. It's a busy time.

>> Michael Grant:
Let's talk about one thing that you're busy on. We're actually taping this on thus because you're going to be down in Mexico on Thursday, so just a few minutes ago our real time, but a couple of days ago when this airs, federal judge has issued a temporary restraining order on implementing Proposition 200. Do you know precisely what the judge has told you not or -- not to do or to do?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Well, wait we're interpreting the order is that -- let me explain the process first. The first part of the process is to canvas the vote and have an official return. We did that last week with the Secretary of State, the chief justice and so forth. Then the usual pattern of business is the governor in two or three weeks after that actually proceeds and claims the things that have passed as law. And you have that interim time to make sure everything is lined up, that, for example, on prop 200 we were doing training of our DPS workers and so forth. To make sure that we were in compliance with the law, and I was prepared, had said I would sign it before I went to Mexico, I'm scheduled to go today, Thursday, two days from now from when we're doing this interview. The judge today, a district judge in Tucson, actually a bush appointee to the bench, basically enjoined the law from taking effect which we interpreted as meaning I shouldn't proclaim the law as being in effect. So while I will be signing the proclamations for the other initiatives, I will not be signing the one for prop 200 until he has a hearing in later December.

>> Michael Grant:
He was careful to say this was not a ruling on the merits, and in many respects it's probably not a surprising ruling from the standpoint he said, I need a little more time to think about this. We need to have a hearing on this. The parties perhaps need to fully brief it. I think the concern remains, though, as to whether or not the state will aggressively defend Proposition 200. Will it?

>> Janet Napolitano:
That will be up to the Attorney General. His rule is to defend the laws passed by the people and I think he will, and I think all viewpoints about prop 200 will be well briefed and well argued. There are a number of parties involved in the lawsuit and the lawsuit itself was predicted even during the campaign I remember lots of people saying we can vote yes because it's going to get tied up in court anyway. Now it's tied up in court for at least a few weeks. In the meantime, we have gotten advice from the Attorney General as to the extent of prop 200, which programs it applies to. We are doing the training and making the internal changes necessary to carry forward with prop 200. So if the judge says, proclaim it, I'm going to let it go ahead, we will do that.

>> Michael Grant:
When the Attorney General's opinion came down a couple, three weeks ago it was sort of clear what proposition did not apply to, but it wasn't quite so clear actually what it did apply to. What state and local programs inside the welfare title it applied to. Have you gotten adequate clarification on that issue?

>> Janet Napolitano: Yeah -- well, in two ways. One is informally we've gotten advice from the Attorney General as to what it applies to within the welfare system, and people need to realize there's just not a welfare program. There are many, many things that fall under the umbrella of welfare, all of which have different kinds of funds -- some are federally funded, some state federal funded with state match. It's very complicated. I wish it were simple but it isn't. So you have to go through each one and figure out each one. So we have gotten advice from the Attorney General as to which prop 200 applies to. I believe that the director of the department is actually asked for a formal opinion to formalize that advice. I don't know that we've gotten that yet.

>> Michael Grant:
City of Phoenix took a controversial stance in saying it would defend its employees if they got in trouble in administering Proposition 200. Do you plan any similar policy at the state level?

>> Janet Napolitano:
We have a state law already that says if that a state employee proceeds in good faith reliance on the Attorney General's advice. Or the legal advice of the Attorney General's office they're not liable, and we are proceeding in good faith reliance on the advice of the Attorney General.

>> Michael Grant:
So if I understand you correctly, as long as an employee is following policy --

>> Janet Napolitano:
Is following the legal interpretation as handed down by the Attorney General, and we will have policies that implement that, they're entitled to the protection of the statute that already exists.

>> Michael Grant:
One final question... let's say hypothetically the federal court ultimately were to rule against Proposition 200.

>> Janet Napolitano:
And make in the junction permanent?

>> Michael Grant:
Make in the junction permanent. Would you support an appeal to the 9th circuit Court of Appeals?

>> Janet Napolitano:
It's not for me to say. I'm actually a named defendant.

>> Michael Grant:
But the Attorney General consults with -- I mean, you're one of his clients, are you not?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Yeah, and I really can't speculate on that. I think it would depend in part on the reasons why and the factual basis for the findings of judge. So you can't speculate on any appeal, and as we sit here now, the judge really hasn't even had the benefit of any briefings. All he asked for was, look, this is complicated, prop 200 was complicated, the arguments for and against it, although people tried to reduce them to very simplistic things. The actual arguments, because the thing was very long, very lengthy and very confusingly worded, you know, it was -- it's a legal more as and the judge wants to bet briefed by all sides and a decision will be made upon that decision.

>> Michael Grant:
Governor, I think you understand the concern. About 55, 56% of the people of Arizona voted for it. It was not backed by you, it was not backed by most on both sides of political spectrum, most leadership. And the concern is, I think, that even though passed by the people that perhaps officials in your position will not aggressively defend it, including but not limited to taking an appeal if there's an adverse ruling.

>> Janet Napolitano:
That can be a concern. I know when I was Attorney General sometimes I had to defend laws and often defended laws that I didn't agree with, but that's your job. You're professional. You represent your client. The client in this case is the law. And you go forward. That will be Terry Goddard's duty as the Attorney General of Arizona.

>> Michael Grant:
On a related matter, President Bush is returning to his guest worker program. He seems to be interested in now moving that along. Do you support -- I realize that there aren't a lot of details on his guest worker program, but do you support it in concept?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Yes. And I very much hope that the president will use this year to really push that. Arizona is suffering from the lack of an enforceable, reasonable immigration law, and, you know, I think Proposition 200's passage was in part a big vent of frustration from people, somebody saying, somebody do something.

>> Michael Grant:
Absolutely.

>> Janet Napolitano:
And the something is increased enforcement, which is federal, not state. I mean, immigration is federal. Let's remember our civics lessons. It's a federal thing. But it also means an immigration policy that makes sense and right now we don't have one that makes sense. I think a guest worker proposal properly done does make sense and would be greatly beneficial to Arizonans.

>> Michael Grant:
Should it or should it not be tied to amnesty?

>> Janet Napolitano:
I think you want to stay away from amnesty. But I think that when people are guest workers they have obeyed the law, come in lawfully, there has to be somewhere in there a path to lawful citizenship that was the way many people entered our country in the past. Right now we don't have anything, and so the only way people can -- many people can get across is to cross illegally. We've developed in huge black market in human trafficking, which is a huge crime problem, particularly in Southern Arizona. We have all the side effects of massive illegal immigration through Arizona, in part because of the actions they took in Texas and California funneled the traffic into our state. It's time for to that stop.

>> Michael Grant:
Incidentally, why are you headed -- you're actually headed for a town near Hermosillo?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Yes, Alamos in Sonora. This is the by annual meeting of the Arizona-Mexico commission, which is primarily a business and trade group. It meets twice a year. They talk about things like the operations at the ports of entry, how lawful commerce can go back and forth, tourism, the cannamex corridor, and lot of things we have that we can work on together. Governor Paul Fannin of Arizona had a great line. He used to say God made Arizona and Mexico neighbors. Let's be good neighbors. And the Arizona-Mexico commission is the embodiment of Fannin's philosophy.

>> Michael Grant:
Incidentally, has the trucking situation been normalized? I know there has been a long standing controversy about licensing and permitting requirements and those kinds of things for traffic moving through the border. Has that situation normalized?

>> Janet Napolitano:
I don't know if normalized is the word I would use. I think it's improving. I think it's something people are working on. And we have been able to make some physical improvements, particularly at the port at Nogales will help facilitate lawful truck traffic coming through the port.

>> Michael Grant:
I think there were calm issues, one was the admission of the truck, the other whether or not there was appropriate enforcement standards.

>> Janet Napolitano:
I think that has been regularized under N.A.F.T.A.

>> Michael Grant:
A kind of joint legislative committee on Monday voted to go ahead with all-day kindergarten.

>> Janet Napolitano:
6-2!

>> Michael Grant:
I say that, because it was, what, six legislators and three public members?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Right. This committee was created by the legislature as part of our agreement on the budget this year. The budget this year, of course, funded the first year of a five-year phase-in for all-day kindergarten. And what the legislature said is, now we want to have this committee appointed with three representatives appointed by basically the governor and the others, six, whatever, appointed by us, to make recommendations on how we do the remainder of the phase-in. We want those recommendations by the first of December. So that committee has been meeting, and they voted 6-2 on a funding formula that will in the end result in the full phase-in all day K within five years.

>> Michael Grant:
What's your response to the argument this is more of a social program, I.E., day-care than it is an education program.

>> Janet Napolitano:
I say that that means you haven't been in an all day kindergarten classroom. It's much different -- I don't know whether you went to kindergarten --

>> Michael Grant:
I did.

>> Janet Napolitano:
All day or half day?

>> Michael Grant:
I went for three years, and as best --

>> Janet Napolitano:
Had trouble getting through?

>> Michael Grant:
That's right.

>> Janet Napolitano:
All day kindergarten is -- it is -- those children now, by being in there all day, they know their letters, they know their words, they have a big head-start on reading, arithmetic, the social skills that go with being in a classroom all day. You talk to a first grade teacher had has students in her class that had all day K versus half day K, and they say it's multiple years difference in terms of the development of the child. What we really want is for our youngest children, we want to close the gaps and give everybody a real strong opportunity to succeed in school and succeed in life. And you have to start early, and the all day K, voluntary with the parents, I want to emphasize that, from the beginning the proposal has been that's it's voluntary with the parents but the all day K is an option every parent ought to have.

>> Michael Grant:
What was about Bob burns point, hold it, if you're going to come up with X million more dollars you ought to cut X million dollars in discretionary educational spending?

>> Janet Napolitano:
I just think he's wrong. You know, I heard these arguments last year and the year before and really, you know, I say to Burns and to others, look, when the state was flush with cash in the '90s as you could have easily done this, you chose not to. I think really all you've done is find another reason not to do something you never wanted to do in the first place. But I think there's a broad bipartisan consensus that investment in early education is the right thing to do, it's a smart thing to do, and it's essential for fuss our young people are going to be competitive in the next decades.

>> Michael Grant:
all right. Governor Janet Napolitano, thanks for joining us. Happy holidays and enjoy Mexico. It's been more than a year since the Kinder Morgan gas pipeline broke near Tucson causing a panic created a gas shortage. Recently the Corporation Commission passed tougher rules for pipelines and operators however the rules do not apply to the Kinder Morgan lines because the new rules on only apply to pipelines entirely in our state. We'll talk to a Corporation Commissioner about the new rules. First Mike Sauceda tells us how pipelines are inspected.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Remember the long gas lines last year after a Kinder Morgan gas pipeline burst?

>> Mike Sauceda:
So does the Corporation Commission and work is ongoing to avoid another such pipeline breakage. Here work is under way to move a Kinder Morgan liquid fuel pipeline east about 100 feet in preparation for a road widening project near 51st Avenue and Baseline. As that is done the Corporation Commission is there making sure that the new liquid fuel 12 inch and 8 inch pipelines are safe. The work at this site is not part of an overall safety in inspection of Kinder Morgan pipelines but in second is a construction inspection.

>> Heather Murphy:
It's comprehensive of all the work done on the line. We want to make sure everything that's done, for example, the coating on the pipe is sound, we want to make sure the weld sites are sound and solid before any product sever even injected into this line.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Yellow tape marks weld points in the pipe. In order to check the weld, an x-ray is taken of the weld spot. The x-ray of the weld is developed on it.

>> Mike Sauceda:
A portable darkroom and then examined. Besides construction surveys, the Corporation Commission also inspects the entire nearly 700 mile long Kinder Morgan gas pipeline in Arizona.

>> Heather Murphy:
There's also an annual comprehensive inspection that we do on the petroleum as well as the natural gas lines and those inspections are records inspections, operating and maintenance inspections as well as physical inspections, and there they drive the whole right-of-way of the pipeline. They're looking for any problems along the right-of-way that might be indicative of some damage to the line potentially, some encroachment issues. They also look at all the pressure regulators along the line to make sure that they're operating properly and transmitting the proper data.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Other types of inspections are also done on the gas lines.

>> Heather Murphy:
Sometimes they will excavate portions of the line to check the condition of the line, the coating and the cathodic protection system. Other times they can take readings from the surface of the soil to read what kind of charge is coming off that line, and again a small electrical charge is applied to the line to retard corrosion.

>> Mike Sauceda:
The Corporation Commission receives authority to inspect interstate lines from the federal office of pipeline safety.

>> Heather Murphy:
We're one of a handful of states that have programs that meet their requirements, and they allow us to be their eyes, ears, hands and feet in the state, and provide backup to us if we need it.

>> Mike Sauceda:
The OPS recently increased the time the commission has to inspect the Kinder Morgan line.

>> Heather Murphy:
They did grant the commission the authority to do any additional inspections we want to do once we've completed the 11 to 14 items on the work plan. So we will be able to go, for example, and check the other end of the Kinder Morgan system between New Mexico and Tucson this year.

>> Mike Sauceda:
So what does all this mean to the average motorist and the potential of another gas pipeline break?

>> Heather Murphy:
Well, I think that the people of Arizona need to be assured that we do have qualified people. We have a well trained staff, we have a well respected team that's out there doing these inspections so that what happened July 30 of last year never happens again in this state.

>> Michael Grant:
Here now to tell us more about the new pipeline rules is Arizona Corporation Commission ear Kris Mayes. Commissioner, good to see you.

>> Kris Mayes:
Good to see you, Mike.

>> Michael Grant:
It's a little surreal to have this right after the governor's interview, but were the rules passed by the commission a direct reaction to the Kinder Morgan situation last summer?

>> Kris Mayes:
I think you could say that, especially with regard to a couple of the rules in the package, especially the independent testing provision. As you know, after the Kinder Morgan pipeline burst, the Corporation Commission really went to battle. We went to bat for a couple of things. One was the right to do an independent test of the rupture that happened on that Kinder Morgan pipeline. If you can believe this, the federal government, which has ultimate authority on the big interstate pipelines, was going to let Kinder Morgan do the only test, and myself and Commissioner Mundell thought that was crazy. And then we also got greater oversight, greater right to inspect pipeline from the fed federal government. In these rules what we basically said is for those pipelines we have direct authority over, the intrastate pipelines, we want independent testing and we want to make sure that we are notified immediately of any potential rupture or incident.

>> Michael Grant:
Now, this does not apply to the Kinder Morgan pipeline as we have discussed. It also doesn't apply to the several natural gas interstate pipelines that move through the state. So what pipelines does it apply to?

>> Kris Mayes:
Well, it essentially would apply to all of UNIsources natural gas's system of pipelines which as you know runs throughout Northern Arizona and Santa Cruz county. It also applies to Southwest Gas pipes, are, you know, all throughout the Metro Phoenix area and town in Tucson, and other small, what they call, LDCs, local distribution companies, and so it does affect a lot of companies. You're right. It does not affect the big sort of massive interstate pipelines. And what the commission is now doing is basically asking the federal government to consider passing legislation that would mandate independent testing for any rupture like the one we had with Kinder Morgan. And so that's really going to have to come from the Feds, but I think, you know, we're hoping that we can take the lead on this and that they'll pay attention.

>> Michael Grant:
On the independent inspection point, is it that the Feds currently do not have that authority or they simply choose not to exercise the authority to conduct an independent inspection?

>> Kris Mayes: You know, that's a great question. That was the first question we asked when we found out that Kinder Morgan was going to be allowed to do the test and the answer is historically, for whatever reason, the federal office of pipeline safety has simply been kind of hands off. It said, you know, we'll let the operator of the pipeline do the test, and we will accept their results as correct, and, you know, if you look at it like this, I think it really looks absurd. The national transportation safety board doesn't allow an airline that's just had a crash to do the only test of what happened. So these pipelines can be dangerous and they have been deadly in the past and so we thought it was a matter of common sense to go ahead and push for that reform.

>> Michael Grant:
One of the other issues involved in these new rules is immediate notification, and, of course, there was a lot of chaos surrounding the Kinder Morgan pipeline break. Obviously this is designed to get the word out as quickly as possible?

>> Kris Mayes:
Yeah, and as you pointed out, this isn't -- it doesn't directly bear on the Kinder Morgan pipeline but it does bear on several other companies, Southwest Gas and UNIsource. We have had local companies that have failed to notify the Corporation Commission 24, 48 hours -- they've notified us 24 to 48 hours after something happened and that's just too long. So we said, look, pick up the phone as soon as you know something has happened, pick up the phone and call us so that we can participate in an investigation and that we can do any kind of mitigation or evacuation that's necessary.

>> Michael Grant:
One of the other aspects of these rules was the chain of custody, which is an evidentiary term, but making sure you know once it's been inspected or once it's been pulled from the ground. Making sure you know where it is and it's not being tampered with and things like that. That's what's being driven at?

>> Kris Mayes:
That was another sort of unusual thing that we discovered after the Kinder Morgan pipeline, or that I discovered after the Kinder Morgan pipeline rupture. Which was there wasn't a real clear sense of who had the pipe they had taken out of the ground, where it was being stored, under what conditions. When you think about it, you're going to have to have a forensic examination of this pipeline, and they look for things like stress corrosion cracking. So you want to make sure that like any other piece of evidence that you have in a courtroom that this piece of evidence is stored correctly and that we know where it is. So that's one of the things we put into these rules. We basically said to the local pipeline companies, you know you've got to notify us of where the pipeline is that you took out of the ground and under what conditions it's being stored.

>> Michael Grant:
Final issue, and it's not really dealt with in the rules, but it's definitely an issue, and that's the whole issue of encroachment of development on pipelines.

>> Kris Mayes:
Yeah, it's dealt with the in the sense that the rules continue to require or prevent pipeline companies from burrowing underneath buildings. But as you know, one of the most amazing aspects of our growth in this state is that you're seeing more and more building right up to the pipeline. When that Kinder Morgan pipeline burst down in Tucson, it was about 48 feet away from the homes that were eventually drenched with the 30,000 gallons of gasoline. So we have to deal with that sort of encroachment issue in the next couple years.

>> Michael Grant:
Arizona Corporation Commissioner Kris Mayes, thank you very much. Have a good holiday.

>> Kris Mayes:
You, too.

>> Michael Grant:
You can check out a transcript of tonight's show or see what's coming up on "Horizon" at our website. That is at www.azpbs.org. When you get to the homepage, scroll down and click on the word "Horizon.” Tomorrow please join us for the Journalists Roundtable edition of "Horizon." We'll be taking about the week's news events, including that temporary restraining order issued against Proposition 200 by the federal court judge in Tucson. Thank you very much for joining us on this Thursday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Hope you have a great one. Good night.

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