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September 19, 2003

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· The Journalists Roundtable
In-Studio Guests:
Chip Scutari, "The Arizona Republic,"
Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services,
Richard De Uriarte, "The Arizona Republic."

>> Michael Grant: It's Friday September 19, 2003. In the headlines this week there is speculation that Arizona Corporation Commissioner Jim Irvin may soon resign rather than face impeachment. A report today shows that the gasoline pipeline that broke more than a month ago hadn't been inspected since 1996 and had its problems back then. And Valley leaders this week approved a massive transit plan that may go to voters next year. Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. This is the Journalists Roundtable. Joining me to talk about these and other stories are Chip Scutari from the "Arizona Republic," Howard Fischer from Capitol Media Services and Richard De Uriarte from "The Arizona Republic." Arizona Corporation Commissioner Jim Irvin may soon resign rather than face impeachment. There is a report he would give up his seat on the commission in exchange for immunity from prosecution. Howie, you wrote that story. Did you make it up?

>> Howard Fischer: You know, I get this question occasionally from journalism classes who have read my stuff and the funny thing, and Richard who has been out at the capitol will attest to, anything you would make up about Arizona politics would pail in comparison with what really occurs out there. Jim Irvin, I think, has always wand to fight this out but now all of a sudden this impeachment probe has widened from just southern union to whether he harass a commission employee a guy named Jim fisher, a guy who is new relation, to a question of whether he interceded in its case of a brother of a campaign worker and I think what's driven him over the edge whether and he wife was involved in what was called a fraud upon the court. When his trial occurred there were some notes presented that Carol Irvin had through the attorneys had represented were made three, four years you aking about a phone conversation he had with jack rose. Well, southern union the plaintiff in the case wanted to test these -- with a forensic expert. All of a sudden they came back next day and said these were produced two weeks ago even though they were written on the back of papers that had been dated 1998. At this point I think Jim is starting to see the handwriting on the wall but he wants to protect himself. My sources tell me that one of his attorneys went to the county attorney's office and said, look, we can save the state the money on the impeachment, we can save a heck of a lot of political blood letting but Jim wants a guarantee when Mel McDonald issues his report is Rick Romley finds something in there cthatriminal he is not going to prosecute him because he will be gone.

>> Michael Grant: Incidentally, placing the county attorney aspect to one side, let's say hypothetically commissioner Irvin were to resign in the next ten days or so, the Mel McDonald report is expect by the end of the month. Would Mel McDonald necessarily go through with the assignment or would the legislature want him to go through with the assignment and file a report?

>> Howard Fischer: Well, that's been a discussion that some of the leadership has been having. I know that there have been some talks by Irvin's people to perhaps even just deep 6 the whole report at that point and at this point what the speaker has told me is, well, he's certainly looking for a way out of an impeachment, his belief is this work has been done at public expense, and that everything that Mel McDonald has produced, whether he produces a final glossy report or here's what I got so far is a matter of public record. There is one other aspect that has to be understood, impeachment actually is a three-step process and people forget the third step, the house indictment, the Senate trial of throwing you from office but the third step is what they call the Dracula clause which would preclude somebody from ever running again and what John Laredo told me and he is the house minority leader, it's fine if he resigns, but if we're not going to go through impeachment to do a Dracula clause, then the public is entitled to know what he did should he ever want to run for office again.

>> Richard De Uriarte: Howie, what I don't understand is the Attorney General, the U.S. Attorney and Rick Romley did investigate Irvin. What is happening now that's different from before?

>> Howard Fischer: Well, Several things. The U.S. Attorney only investigated the southern union matter. Did not investigate the Jim fisher matter, did not investigate the American national mortgage. Certainly didn't investigate the fraud on the court. Rick Romley went so far with his investigation and then when the U.S. Attorney's office hired away his lead attorney he gave it all to the U.S. Attorney's office. And the only thing that was done by the Attorney General was looking at the American national, and Bob Myers, who is chief deputy Attorney General, said we don't find any evidence of criminal conduct within what he did only on that. That's why the issue of the fraud on the court and the notes becomes very critical, which is why Irvin's people be are looking at immunity.

>> Michael Grant: Incidentally, has the house ever landed on what would be its procedural plan of attack for receiving the McDonald report whether or not the judiciary committee would hold hearings? I mean, those kinds of things?

>> Chip Scutari: I think they're waiting for the report which could come in the next 10 day and I was going to ask Howie this before, but I think they will go through judiciary committee and they want to do this in about two days, really quick and get it over to the Senate for trial. It seems like before Mel McDonald started his work Irvin was kind of a little more confident about not having to resign but do we have to give Mr. McDonald some kudos for digging into this, for getting people like jack rose other and people immunity and seems like he's digging behind what -- maybe Mel McDonald deserves some credit for digging into this and getting Jim Irvin scared about his political future.

>> Howard Fischer: Mel was given an order, find out what there to be found. Mel is a former U.S. Attorney for Arizona. If Mel gets into something he is not just going to gloss it over and collect his fee. It's also, I suppose, to sound like -- I'm talking for Mel's selfish interest, it's in his best interest to build the best case possible, because if the house builds a bill for prosecution, he's going to be trying the case. He wants the best possible impeachment bill to take to the Senate.

>> Michael Grant: "Arizona Republic" reporting today that kinder Morgan had not inspected that pipeline that had busted for about seven years and that inspection report wasn't all that great.

>> Richard De Uriarte: No, and the governor, Napolitano, described it as a game of chicken because we're still -- while the portion of the pipeline that burst July 30th is going to be repaired, but we still have a whole line from Tucson to Phoenix that is years old and is in need of repair and hasn't been fixed according to

>> Howard Fischer: -- and what's particularly concerning is some of those portions of the Phoenix-Tucson line are in fact newer but there are stretches of that that are almost as old as I am, which is older than dirt. And the question becomes that these initial inspection reports, the last ones from the '90s, showed some signs of corrosion. Now that in and of itself is not a reason to dig up the pipe but it is a reason to go back and do more frequent inspections. That's, I think, really the key here. They found signs of corrosion. This was reported to the Corporation Commission. Then nobody did anything.

>> Michael Grant: How much of this, though, Howie is impacted by the plans in the next two, three years to replace and for that matter enlarge the capacity of that pipeline?

>> Howard Fischer: Well, part of it is, in terms of chicken and egg kind of thing, would kinder Morgan have pushed ahead with those plans if the pipe hadn't burst in the first place and they hadn't come under scrutiny? Clearly if you replace the oldest sections, sections put in in 1955, you deal with the problem, but in the interim, what can go wrong? The department of environmental quality has its own investigation. They're not only looking for a fine, but they want a plan of action to say how are you going to prevent this from happening while you're replacing the new sections?

>> Michael Grant: Arizona's new legislative districts approved in 2002 could be changing in time for the 2004 elections. A court trial on the legality of the new districts is going to be held. Chip, I thought this thing had gone away.

>> Chip Scutari: You and I and everyone else had hoped it had gone away. Seems like this redistricting roller coaster won't end and a brief history here, this whole idea of the independent redistricting commission was the Democrat's idea. Jim Peterson head of the Democratic Party pumped in millions of dollars to get this independent redistricting commission with the idea being we're going to have competitive districts. What happened was, you know, gleeful to the Republicans and all to the Democrats, the Republicans control about two-thirds of the 30 legislative districts. They maintain control of that. They did great in the congressional districts. So I think this is pushing it back to the state court. Even some of the biggest supporters of this, democratic democratic leaders in the Senate and house, say they're just going to do some minor tweaking at best so it won't be too many more competitive districts.

>> Michael Grant: The point in this case being there is sort of a last clause in the independent redistricting commission provisions that says, listen, if you can comply with all of the six, seven, eight factors above including but not limited to voted rights compliance, then make the districts competitive, and the commission says, well, you know, we did the best we could.

>> Chip Scutari: I think the Democrats and their attorneys over -- were counting on that whole idea of competitiveness when they had to go through the voting rights act, communities of interest, all these other factors that just didn't make it possible to have more competitive districts.

>> Richard De Uriarte: Precisely. There is a contradiction and an internal conflict of interest within the Democratic Party base. Hispanic Latino candidates want to get elected and have the U.S. Justice Department on their side, and so they --

>> Michael Grant: We want 62%, we don't want 51%?

>> Richard De Uriarte: And so, as you just found out in the city council district 4 where you had a 58% population Hispanic in central city district 4, you still don't have the turnout in -- traditionally Hispanic areas to lift Hispanic candidate to win the seat. So you have the same holds true where -- and people, for as much as we talk about diversity, people live near people like them.

>> Howard Fischer: And there's another factor --

>> Michael: You're kidding.

>> Richard De Uriarte: It's a fact. Except for the central districts and the poorer districts in town you're not going to find a Sikh living next to an African-American living next to an anglo, living next to a teacher, living across the street from a Sikh engineer.

>> Howard Fischer: you haven't been to Lavine.

>>Howard Fischer: There's another factor that goes beyond what Richard is saying. Which is the desire to do what's right for potty falls when I the wayside with the desire to do what's right for me. We watched, for example, Mary Rose Wilcox try to shaft an elected Democrat to create a seat for her husband. Gerrymandered him out of his own district. Turned out she wasn't successful. That was the kind of games being played there. Then the Democrats say, how do we wind up like this? It's your own fault. You were so busy trying to protect your own seat that you didn't worry about anyone else.

>> Michael Grant: And I was so hopeful this was going to take politics out of the process, you know, but --

>> Howard Fischer: Shocked --

>> Chip Scutari: Another example was congressman Ed pastor where he -- I forget the exact figures, he had about 68% Hispanic and he wanted 72%. So he was really killing his democratic brethren so ah didn't work for democrats on any level.

>> Michael Grant: Rich, the parting that the three Libertarian candidates did in the last election cycle is just not working out for them?

>> Richard De Uriarte: As Howie said, covering politics in Arizona, you know, all this is due to the clean elections law that we all passed, and that reform. Save me against reform. Things are bad enough now. These are the three candidates that ah ah spent about $30,000 in the last campaign, Libertarians, who don't want to take your money, ah saw it was around, so they they they applied, got this -- they spent, allegedly, their campaign money, ah the people's money, on parties and in Scottsdale, ah computer equipment that they used for --

>> Howard Fischer: You're missing the point. This was the party to register voters. Never mind it wasn't in the legislative district they were running from.

>> Chip Scutari: They're trying to reach out to new voters.

>> Richard De Uriarte: They're trying to get younger voters, I'm sure. By the same token, that demographic did not work out, and so ah in order to -- they -- well, they're not going to pay it back. The deal that's being worked out is that Paul Dedinati, one of the three candidates, would pay $15,000 fine to make up for the $31,000 and the criminal --

>> Chip Scutari: But one of the up shots from this that might be of a more serious ramification, there's now an initiative they are trying to gather signatures to take the taxpayer money out of clean elections and raising big bucks for get rid of clean elections. So Mr. Dedinati, and Mr. Richard Mahoney who ran ads criticizing everybody, these are going to be the poster children for why we don't need clean elections and how clean elections isn't really squeaky clean.

>> Michael Grant: Speaking of getting rid of things why is the local Club for Growth getting rid of Steve May.

>> Chip Scutari: They say it's philosophical differences. Other say it's because Mr. May is openly gay. Glen Munsel who runs the Center for Arizona Policy in Scottsdale, had his troops send out e-mails to Steven Moore who is head of the national Club for Growth saying, how dare you appoint an openly gay candidate, paraphrasing here but, who declared war on social conservatives in Arizona. Just a week or 10 days ago they had a big press conference with Steve May, conservative columnist Robert Novak was by his side. They kind of touted this as fiscal conservatives going after big spending Republicans. Now --

>> Howard Fischer: This is fascinating because there are few people who are more fiscally conservative at the legislature than Steve May. He headed the ways and means committee. He went through and said we need to make taxes fairer for corporations, but you know what he did that really annoyed the nut cases, if you will? He went ahead and said we have a whole set of tax credits, we ought to look at all of them and decide whether they make sense, including the tax credit for private schools and all of a sudden, oh, my God, they're declaring war on all of our issues. He said, let's look at all the tax credits and they just can't live with that.

>> Chip Scutari: Is nut case a legal term or political term?

>> Howard Fischer: It's a capital end.

>> Chip Scutari: I wanted to be sure of.

>> Richard De Uriarte: It just goes to show you most of the things you worry about in politics never turn out or turn on themselves.

>> Chip Scutari: And it shows once again what a big tenth the republican party is.

>> Richard De Uriarte: When this story broke that the club for growth was establishing itself in Arizona, moderates quaked in their boots. A week later they're fighting among themselves. They can't get a director

. >> Michael Grant: A couple of local political angles. Phil Gordon has got himself a chief of staff, and he's -- well, moving around internally to do it.

>> Richard De Uriarte: Interesting because it's actually a tactic that other mayors have done and the city manager, they take one of their top staffers and put them on the political side, either working with the council or the Mayor's staff giving the manager a little bit of a assessment of what it's like to be on the elected side and giving the new interim transition team and the new Mayor's staff knowledge of what happens. Dave Krietor is a calm fellow, he was in the eye of the storm with the Tempe-Sky Harbor stadium fight, he is very -- he now runs the Sky Harbor airport, but he's not an aviation guy. Aviation guys are usually the old military types. He's more the business guy, and, you know, the Sky Harbor airport is a city in itself. It has every labor management, neighborhood coalitions, all those things, so --

>> Michael Grant: Fast-food restaurants.

>> Richard De Uriarte: Fast-food restaurants.

>> Howard Fischer: And let me go a step beyond this, because his background actually is in economic development, which shows that not only do that they saw the airport as an economic development tool but shows something about the kind of administration that's going to be run under the new Mayor.

>> Richard De Uriarte: And it puts Krietor, some people suggest, in a position -- an insiderish position for the next city manager should Frank Fairbanks leave.

>> Michael Grant: Moving to the west's most western town, they're gonna see if they want districts in Scottsdale.

>> Chip Scutari: This has been a simmering issue for many years in Scottsdale and I think it's come down to, you know, I covered Scottsdale for several years, you know, people in the southern portion of the city by Los Arcos mall have almost nothing in common with people that live way north in Troon. It's become almost three separate cities and a lot of people say, hey, we want our own council members to fight for our pork in our own districts. I think they're going to try to have six district council seats and an at large Mayor. It could work out. There's going to be political turf battles. But there's that in other cities.

>> Howard Fischer: But the fact is we heard these same arguments years ago here in Phoenix when Terry Goddard headed the whole campaign. We used to have a situation where probably everyone from the Phoenix city council lived just within a few blocks of each other up on North Central Avenue and they were all nice white Republicans, and we went to a district system and, yes, you have people arguing for their own things but we have managed to function as a city in Phoenix and I don't know why Scottsdale would be any different.

>> Michael Great: incidentally, do you know if the republic editorial page hung onto all the he had tore annuals from 20 years ago --

>> Richard De Uriarte: I Rewrote them all, saying that -- ignore all that we said, yes.

>> Michael Grant: It wasn't easy, but Valley leaders have agreed on a $15.7 billion transportation plan that could go to the voters in 2004. Rich, what are the key points?

>> Richard De Uriarte: Well, according to the plan, which all the Valley mayors are likely to embrace West Valley Valley basically where the growth is going to occur gets the freeways. East Valley gets a lot of the arterial improvements and a Loop 202 extension, and City of Phoenix probably will get the light rail and some work on I-17, the Black Canyon Freeway, which is overwhelmed now. What Phoenix would like is -- or what they're talking about now is double decking it from McDowell to Dunlap as some cities in Tampa and L.A. have done.

>> Michael: An express kind of arrangement for about eight miles --

>> Richard De Uriarte: Precisely. If you get on at I-10 and you're heading to cave creek or New River, you just take the high road, you know --

>> Michael Grant:That's nice, I like that.

>> Richard De Uriarte: Take the high road and go nonstop to Dunlap where you come down at just past the Metrocenter mall.

>> Michael Grant: Is it possible they won't allow, Howie, on the high road, they'll insist you take the low road.

>> Howard Fischer: What's interesting if these put out these wonderful pictures how it doesn't look so bad, but one of the things they didn't show the pictures, it didn't show what happens when it passes over Indian School and Camelback and Bethany Home. There are people who live on the west side who already see I-17 as a scar, who already see I-17 as dividing the community. All of a sudden you're talking 30 feet up in the air, having something go not only along height way, but over all those east-west streets. I appreciate --

>> Richard De Uriarte: I remember when the stack was built and the first sometime I went from I-10 to I-17, I was so scared, I still avoid it if I can. It is going to be a monster. Yet, you know, the. -the Black canyon there is no room to widen that --

>> Howard Fischer: But this comes down to the other point and Michael's heard me talk about this before in terms of the alternatives. We've got this silly-Ass plan to run a trolley on streets which means they have to stop at the lights and everything else. So rather than come one a mass transit plan to get people out of their cars, I would -- I would be willing to buy an overhead on the I-17 for mass transit and get it off the treats, but -- to by a trolley system on the streets and more lanes on the I-17 so people can live further out past anthem is stupid.

>> Richard De Uriarte: Howie, you're not the only one because there's certainly a number of people in the East Valley and some legislators who have some kind of say on this matter because they can -- and now they're not -- a number of legislators in the East Valley think, why are we paying for this trolley?

>> Michael Grant: add a little bit of a catch, though. After 2006, after the core of the trolley system is constructed, they can only proceed further, rich, as I understand it with some demonstrated results that it is effective and you're getting relatively good bang for the bucks, stuff like that?

>> Richard De Uriarte: You know, Mike, this is going -- we all stand around and hope that we're going to go, they're going to fight -- they're going to fight over money. West Valley wants those freeways and the problem is -- as we all criticize, the Phoenix voters say, why am I going to pay for freeways out to the west Valley where I'm never going to go? We have failed on these things before. So I think that the political will to shut up and keep this thing going, keep this train moving, whether it -- you know --

>> Michael Grant: Surface level --

>> Richard De Uriarte: Or underground --

>> Chip Scutari: I want to make a point before Howie goes off on another tangent. A lot of work was done to get this transportation plan done, but I think everyone who is involved with this, MAG, the city mayors, they realize it's even a bigger fight at the capital. The session starts January 12th. They have to get this to the governor's desk by February 3rd to get an election called in May. As we know the beginning of the session is not a great time to get things done. There is going to be a very tall task for them to get them on the May ballot.

>> Richard De Uriarte: I think Chip is exactly right because everybody wants their piece and wants their input, and these things tend to lose votes as time goes on.

>> Michael Grant: And, Chip, there's certainly some legislators talking about no rush to get it on the May ballot, we can get it on the November ballot, but, of course, I don't think that the proponents would be all that happy with that timing because, of course, that's much larger turnout and more people to talk about the viability or lack thereof of the plan.

>> Chip Scutari: Yeah, they really want to get it on the ballot so it's their issue, they can get it done with and get it out -- no more worries, the November ballot with have a lot more issues. Speaking of East Valley lawmakers, there's a lot of conservatives at the capital, Marilyn Jarrett, Mr. Blendu, who you say the words light rail and they break out in hives so there's going to be a big battler how much money gets spent of light rail --

>> Richard De Uriarte: Some of them have even suggested what we need to do is spend some more money in Pinal County, which -- if Pinal County wants to get a freeway, I sure think that most people in Maricopa County will say, tax yourselves.

>> Michael Grant: Almost out of time, but interesting population statistics on growth of Hispanics.

>> Howard Fischer: Yes, the census bureau did a quick update after the 2000 census, 27 months later they said the Hispanic population has grown twice as fast as the anglo population. We're at a point now where it's at 27.7%. By the 2010 census, Hispanics will be one-third of Arizona. The actual figures may be higher.

>> Michael Grant: Panelists, thank you very much. To share your views or contact us, please business visit our website at www.kaet.asu.edu click on the word "Horizon." That will lead you to transcripts, links and information on upcoming shows. Speaking of which, let's see what's on "Horizon" Monday.

>> Michael Grant: It's been 30 years since President Nixon launched our war on drugs. Is it working? Also, ASU students reporting their findings on a real life problem, domestic violence. And local Hispanics honor the Valley's most successful Latinos. It's all coming on "Horizon" at 7.

>> Michael Grant: Tuesday on "Horizon" find out the results of the latest KAET ASU poll. Wednesday officials are moving towards approving a $17 billion dollar transportation plan. We will talk about that. Thanks for joining us Friday and I hope you have a great weekend. I'm Michael Grant. Good night.

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