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October 31, 2003

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· The Journalists Roundtable
In-Studio Guests:
Howie Fischer, Capitol Media Services;
Chip Scutari, "Arizona Republic,"
Beth DeFalco, Associated Press

>> Michael: It's Halloween, October 31st, 2003. In the headlines this week state lawmakers wrapped up week two of the special session without reaching consensus on a plan to reform Child Protective Services. The White House has announced President Bush will visit Arizona in November. And NFL owners voted Thursday to award Super Bowl XLII to the new stadium under construction in Glendale. Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. This is the Journalists Roundtable. Joining me to talk about these and other stories are Howie Fischer from Capitol Media Services, Chip Scutari from the "Arizona Republic," and Beth DeFalco from the associated press. State lawmakers wrapped up the second week of their special session today at the capitol. Howie, any progress on a plan to reform CPS?

>> Howard Fischer: Well, I mean the fact that we've completed two weeks, isn't that progress? We've got bills introduced and the Senate family services committee had its first hearing. That doesn't mean they voted on anything. Doesn't mean they made any decisions. The short answer to your question is, nah, no progress.

>> Michael: We did get a couple of bills, Beth, this week, we got the governor's bill and we also got county attorney Rick Romley's bill. Some key differences between those two?

>> Beth Defalco: Mostly Rick Romley's bill wants to completely separate CPS and turn it into its own independent agency. Napolitano says the cost of that would be about $8 million. Additionally his bill expands the definitions of abuse and neglect and eliminates the family builders program altogether. That program and in some instances had investigated reports of abuse. Under Romley's bill the program would have nothing to do at all with CPS. Napolitano would still like to keep the program but just reduce its responsibilities to provide basic services.

>> Howard: One of the interesting things in terms of Beth talking about redefining what constitutes abuse and neglect is Romley looking at this as a prosecutor has a provision that says if CPS comes into your home and they see a marijuana plant growing or there are drugs a child can get to, they must, not may, but they must remove the child. They also have some provisions dealing if the mother is taking drugs while she is pregnant.

>> Michael: Of course, that's not a very controversial subject because you had the case with the mother and grandmother f I recall, on crack cocaine.

>> Howard: Exactly. But the problem is many of the conservatives who did not trust CPS in the first place who think they are going to be ripping apart families who are not keen about some of the reforms being discussed now are never going to go for giving them that much authority based on the idea there was a hash pipe on the table, therefore we are taking the child and the siblings from the home.

>> Beth: Meanwhile, Attorney General Terry Goddard says, hey, don't forget me. He has his hand waving in the back of the room pep estimates it's going to cost at least half a million to defend CPS and to also help some of these abuse cases move through the system.

>> Michael: Chip, was part of the thinking here, well, let's get moving on the substance, let's maybe start getting some testimony, bringing everybody up to speed and while that's going on, we can try to move and fish around a little bit on the real issue, which is are we going to give CPS $35 million more?

>> Chip: Basically what's really happening here n public there's not a lot going on. Howie mentioned there's one hearing this week and that's about all that's happened in the past two weeks. In the House of Representatives, they formed a bunch working groups taking different aspects of the plan, openness of records versus the definition of abuse and neglect, and the money part of this problem, which the governor wants $35.5 million. Most lawmakers say you have to prove that to us. So a lot of what's going on is behind the scenes. We don't see it in terms of public testimony and stuff like that, but the biggest issue here is that most lawmakers still don't know where -- there's about there are a 300 million pumped into CPS annually, both federal and state dollars and most the leading lawmakers still don't have a grasp of where those dollars are spent. They know some of the programs and they're continually frustrated by it and they say Governor Napolitano won't show with us dollars and cents are going.

>> Howard: It goes a step beyond that. Out of that $35 million there are two components. Lawmakers are willing to put up the 8 1/2 million to hire more caseworkers. They recognize even with the auditor general's report and the Matthews -- caseworkers are overworked. Other 27 million the governor wants is she says supplemental to keep the agency operating. They're saying, we are three months into the fiscal year. How can you tell us in an agency with that much money that you're already 27 million short? As Chip said, we see some of what we have appropriation authority over. We know that the -- D. S which is the parent agency has shoved around money before when they've needed it, they've taken federal fund and supplemented state programs. We're not exactly convinced we need to step up to the trough.

>> Chip: Some lawmakers are saying Governor Napolitano f you are so wise and cared so before CPS, why wasn't this money in your original budget, especially 8.5 million for caseworkers and increased salaries and cell phones.

>> Michael: Anything going on on the correction side of this special session this week?

>> Howard: We know the governor already backed off her original $470 million plan now we're down to $27 million for eventually three, 400-bed facilities. What is happening curiously enough relates to the issue of the input side of the equation. There's been a committee in the house looking at the issue of mandatory sentencing and various alternatives and also the issue of what constitutes a felony versus a misdemeanor and they filed a bill that takes some of the things that have been classic misdemeanors like the theft of native plants and they said there is no reason to have this a felony, which means you go to state prison, as opposed to having it a misdemeanor which means you end up in Joe Arpaio's jail.

>> Michael: Day 12, state held hostage by special session. How many days do you think -- can we count on fingers and toes the numbers of day?

>> Chip: Based on the last two weeks of -- really haven't gotten anything accomplished. I can see this easily that were we were kidding around about it going onto Thanksgiving but unless they ramp it up over the next two weeks I could see it going into Thanksgiving. It could drag on a long, long time.

>> Michael: Now, the governor does broaden the call this week, and they authorize some money to defend the redistricting suit in Superior Court.

>> Chip: I found this kind of -- maybe Howie agrees with me, but I find this kind of hilarious that these Republican lawmakers, they act like funding redistricting is going to solve like cancer, like people are dieing in the streets. It is -- they say it's a constitutional crisis and all this, but we have all these other in Arizona with the high school drop-out rate and all these other issues, and you would have thought it was the biggest problem in the world to fund this agency.

>> Howard: But here's the issue, and it's purely partisan politics, you had Democrats helping to create the independent redistricting commission in hopes they would get a much better shake than they would in a Republican controlled legislature. It didn't work out that way. Ended one most the congressional legislative districts now firmly in Republican hands. Democrats have filed suit challenging these lines.

>> Michael: Some Hispanics --

>> Howard: It's a coalition. So the trial is supposed to start November 12th. Commission burnt through its $6 million appropriation. No more money, no source of money. So the Republicans who want the commission to defend because they want to keep the seats say, of course we need more money for these people. Without more money, the challengers win. The Democrats say, now, wait a second, we had much more important priorities, let's slow up the process. Of course, their selfish motive is to the extent you slow up the process, then you hobble the commission to defend itself. The fact that Steve Gallardo, who is a plaintiff, a member of the organization that's a plaintiff in the suit is yelling let's much more on CPS first to slow up his lawsuit, you know, shows the political nature of the whole thing. Then on top of that we have Rick Romley, who is the Maricopa County attorney, a Republican, trying to find a way to get the Maricopa County board of supervisors to help fund the thing.

>> Michael: Now, there were a couple legislative Democrats who encouraged the governor to include it -- include the call and get this behind her?

>> Chip: Yeah, like Howie mentioned, both sides are playing politics. The governor could have avoided all this scuttlebutt and hassle by just agreeing to amend the call. She didn't. Some people say she's doing a favor for her Buddy Jim Peterson who is head of the Democratic Party who pumped about $3 million to help her become governor. So it's politics on both sides. It's kind of funny the Republicans, you almost never see the Republican congressional delegation come down to the capital for anything. They are -- congressman flake, J.D. Hayworth, John Shaddegg, Trent Franks, all there for redistricting. Not like evening indication or something. -- education or something. There's definitely politics and hypocrisy on both sides of the issue.

>> Michael: With about three months to go before the Arizona democratic primary election, things heated up between the Lieberman and Kerry campaigns. Chip, you were behind this whole darn thing. How did senator Lieberman's face become an -- faith become an issue.

>> Chip: Mario Diaz, we all know and love from the Governor Napolitano's staff, former deputy chief of staff who ran her campaign -- last week I heard that him and Representative Ben Miranda who originally supported Lieberman is now on the Kerry campaign, went around to different Lieberman supporters who they thought might be on the fence, and one thing they attribute to Mr. Miranda saying, hey, switch sides to Kerry because Lieberman can't campaign Friday, Saturday and Sunday, obviously exaggerating the fact that he's an Orthodox Jew and he doesn't campaign from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. So we got wind of this, talked about three, four, five lawmakers who told me exactly what Mr. Miranda said. He, of course, denied it. The story ran, the next day got picked up all over country, CNN, Boston Globe, and they cut loose Mr. Miranda even though he says he never said it. They were satisfied with Mario Diaz saying he had nothing to do with it, although some of the lawmakers tell me he was in the room when Mr. Miranda was seeing this. The bottom line, it shows how important Arizona is in the presidential sweepstakes. Five, ten years ago Arizona was an afterthought. Now it's such a big deal and with Lieberman and general Clark dropping out of the Iowa caucus, that makes Arizona even bigger. When some bad news like this happens in presidential politics it travels pretty fast.

>> Michael: This has not been a red letter year for Mario Diaz, would you agree with me?

>> Chip: I like to maintain my objectivity, but I could point out he was reprimanded over the Piestewa Peak renaming, when he called a board member on the renaming commission and he got into another flap -- when he looks at his resume he might not want to include some of his accomplishment from this year.

>>Howard: We're also presuming, particularly when he worked for Napolitano, that he wasn't in fact doing what his handlers wanted. I think anyone who hires Mario knows his reputation. I mean, he's the guy who will go around and bust your kneecaps. He's the political hit man --

>> Michael: In a figurative -- >> Howard: Hopefully a figurative way although I saw a few people hobbling at the capital. So when Kerry put him on, he had to know this is a guy who plays hardball. So don't say, I'm shocked to know Mario would think this way.

>> Michael: President Bush coming to the Valley next -- yeah, next month. We're still in October, it's Halloween.

>> Chip: Speaking of presidential race and how important it is, of course he's coming here for another big fund-raiser. He's going to raise a gazillion dollars and easily outspend whoever his democratic rival is. He is going to start playing his play in Arizona and New Mexico and some of the western states to make sure can he win it, and the polls -- it depend on what poll you look at. It shows -- it's pretty close for bush even though this is a Republican state. It's going to be definitely a battleground state for bush even though he is the incumbent.

>> Michael: Speaking of presidents, president Vicente fox coming to Arizona next week. What's the agenda?

>> Howard: There is going to be a meeting with the governor and Mayor and other leaders that's going to be closed Doral though I'm sure we will get the obligatory Q&A and briefing afterwards. He's meeting with about 300 business leaders later. I think the message is do business with Mexico, we're a business free country now, nobody is going to seize your assets, we would like to promote trade. Finally there's -- I guess you would call it sort of a rally and a chance to meet Mexican nationals and Mexican immigrant at the civic plaza. What's interesting about that is originally this was going to be open to all and then the consulate started restricting who could get tickets, I think they were looking for Mexican nationals, which they can do since they are paying for the hall. But that's going to be open to the media and we will get a chance to see what he says there.

>> Michael: I'm sure nobody at the table researched this, but I was kind of searching my memory earlier in the week, I can't recall a sitting Mexican president coming to Arizona.

>> Howard: Ever. This is the first time. It's historic.

>> Michael: You guys did research it.

>> Howard: Although the curious thing is because of the nature of protocol, technically this is sort of a private visit because of the fact he is not meeting with another head of state, and so they have all these rules under international protocol about what this is. Technically it's a private visit, he just happens to be meeting with the governor, they're going to happen to talk about the issues they started to talk about last week having to do with guest worker programs and things like and that he's going to happen to meet with a lot of business leaders saying send money.

>> Chip: I did some more research. This is the second time a head of state has come to Arizona. Technically, Pope John Paul II when he visited in 1987. I just wanted to throw that out so you know how well informed I am.

>> Michael: I understand from a protocol standpoint you should not serve Mexican food. I was reading the protocol list in the Republic.

>> Chip: You should never try to replicate what they have -- what kind of food they have in that country. So sushi or something else --

>> Howard: He is getting a Big Mac like everyone else.

>> Michael: An e-mail snafu on Randy Graff organizing some kind of protest to the civic plaza?

>> Chip: I've hurt something about this. Representative Randy Graff and his fellow colleague representative Pearce are pushing this protect Arizona now. Mr. Graff's big contention with this visit is that he doesn't think Governor Napolitano as a state official should be talking about the guest worker program which comes under the bailiwick of the federal government. He says the Mexican border policies are inconsistent, because on the south they're stricter than on the north, and he sent out this e-mail. He says he's not going to protest or do anything like that, but you know I don't think it would be worth anyone's while -- he hit the wrong button. That happens to everyone.

>> Michael: Should have hit reply and he hit forward.

>> Howard: What's happening points up something we're going to see developing over the next year which is a split within the Republican party. I mean you have people like McCain and Kolbe and flake who are pushing a program for guest workers and for a sort of limited amnesty program, and many elements of the local party, particularly Messers. Graff and Pierce are saying they are way off base.

>> Michael: Next Tuesday the hospital district election. They have really kept this one below the radar.

>> Howard: And I think the idea was by design. On measures like this, this is Prop 414, you want to turn out the people who you think will in fact vote for it. Because a low turnout helps in those situations. If people get angry and say wait a second, we're talking about an additional property tax, talking about creating a special taxing district and talking about a campaign filled with a lot of misinformation courtesy of Maricopa County, then they'll turn out and be angry. It was designed to stay below the radar.

>> Chip: Didn't you like the publicity pamphlet, Howie?

>> Howard: The publicity pamphlet was the biggest piece of propaganda since the fall of the Kremlin.

>> Michael: Colorado City and polygamy became an issue in last year's governor race. Now Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard says he wants to establish a safe haven for women and children in that community. Beth, what exactly would the safe haven be?

>> Beth: It's a little unclear about exactly what it would be. But Goddard threw out some ideas it could be in fact an arm or branch of CPS, whatever that should turn out to be, or it could be a women's shelter, some sort of independent office that's not connected to Colorado City or Mohave County officials.

>> Michael: Does the Attorney General really have -- isn't this a problem for the Mohave County attorney as opposed to the Attorney General of the state, if you want to prosecute bigamy or a variety of other things that may be going on up there?

>> Beth: Well, as far as the safe haven is concerned, would it depend on what kind of safe haven it was. If it were CPS type of office or offices, it very well could be Goddard's jurisdiction. Historically the Attorney General has, in fact, led the only prosecution or indictment in the last 50 years up in that area.

>> Howard: Here's the problem and it's a political problem for Terry, as you point out, he doesn't have a lot of real jurisdiction. But people looking at what's happening in Utah with the Attorney General there operating under a different set of constitutional re restaurants and laws has gotten the conviction of a police officer up there, has actually moved and is actually doing something and people are saying, wait a second, hill Dale, Colorado City, straddle the border, half the problem is us. What are you doing, Terry? He can't very well throw up his hands and say, there's nothing I can do. He has to make it look like he's doing something. The idea of a CPS office or a welfare office a as a safe haven? Excuse me, these people go home at 5:00. Exactly -- it really didn't work.

>> Beth: The problem is not -- it's that people think that Mohave County officials and some Colorado City officials and hill Dale Utah officials are so close to the community that they're not doing anything. You see this in the case of Rodney Holm in Utah who was a Colorado City marshal --

>> Howard: In Colorado City, the Mayor and police chief and everybody else --

>> Beth: And Mohave County. They say some people from Colorado City say Mohave officials weren't doing anything.

>> Howard: But you still have the jurisdictional problem. It's fine to say they're not doing anything. Unless you're prepared to go in and dessert if I the police department, which you can do --

>> Beth: And they are doing in some instances.

>> Beth: And unless you're prepared to have somehow a court order to declare the city government and even the county government is not meeting its constitutional authority, then you know you might as well just be whistling Dixie.

>> Beth: He must be whistling, because they've filed an indictment against somebody up there -- not an indictment. The first charge they filed in 50 years for unlawful sex acts with women under age. That guy is on the run now, and they're looking for him. But Terry's done it, and he's not having any jurisdictional problems.

>> Chip: Terry Goddard will get criticized if he does nothing and get criticized for being political for doing something.

>> Michael: Thank you much for putting a sharp point on that.

>> Chip: That's what I'm here for.

>> Michael: I know. That's wonderful. What was the other head of state to visit -- no. Beth, moving further west, terrible week in California. Arizona is sending a fair amount of gear and personnel over that way to try to help out fires.

>> Beth: They are sent well over 50 engines and as many as 500 personnel to help out, and as I understand it, they're taking two-week rotations.

>> Michael: Strange turn of events, though, California sends us a national football league football game on "Monday Night Football." How did that come about again?

>> Beth: Actually, I can actually tie that into the Pope's visit because that was the only time there was a line as long --

>> Michael: At Sun Devil stadium.

>> Chip: There wasn't a long line for a Cardinals game?

>> Beth: Apparently not. The line easily had to be a mile long.

>> Michael: And there were people, I understand it, who camped out at, what, about midnight?

>> Beth: The first people I talked were to some college students camping out about 10:30 the night before, which is sad because the tickets were handed out randomly. So you weren't guaranteed a seat. But, yeah, apparently about 225,000 dollars were raised.

>> Michael: Valley taking something of a rap for that. That totals about $3.50 a person in terms of contributions?

>> Beth: It did, but when you figure a large percentage were college students, that $3 donation might be considered large, easily the price of a beer. They are taking a hit for it but I think it was such short notice that it's hard --

>> Chip: Nice to have a professional football game in Sun Devil stadium for a change.

>> Chip: I would have to say the Cardinals organization has to be a little embarrassed. This thing was scheduled -- I watched a little of the game being a big football fan and you saw so many Miami Dolphin and San Diego Charger jerseys, way more than you see wearing Cardinals jerseys on a regular Sunday. I just throw that out there as a little observation on my part.

>> Michael: In fact, we had a taped piece on the show on Monday where we talked to somebody, and it was Miami fan that had driven to Los Angeles, then to San Diego and back to Phoenix. So incredible.

>> Beth: In less than 24 hours, 73,000 people came.

>> Michael: Big week, obviously, for the Valley with the NFL. We get the Super Bowl in 2008. Chip.

>> Chip: I think the bigger -- it's great we got 2008. But what we're hoping in Arizona, the league officials are hoping we will become part of a regular rotation for the Super Bowl. Every five to six years get a Super Bowl, which is a nice coup for the state and I know Howie is going to complain it's hard for Arizonans to get tickets, but it's good for the state and just for tourism --

>> Howard: It's impossible for Arizonans to get tickets. I mean, I appreciate -- if you get a ticket, I'll eat my hat, and I don't even have one. The Super Bowl does bring in money. Some people think about $400 million in terms impact. Of course, the question is do we need more tourists in the middle of February when everyone is coming here anyway. The other question, of course, is does it benefit anyone other than Glendale, which is going to have the stadium, and, of course, the owners of 55,000 hotel rooms in Phoenix, Tempe and Scottsdale.

>> Michael: They do try to spread out a variety of surrounding and accompanying events, though, throughout the state, Howie.

>> Howard: The other point the governor made and this probably has more validity than anything else, both in terms of the people who come here and go home and say, Arizona is a nice place to have a conference, and the people who watch on TV. That is our best advertising, and as I say, if we had a professional football team playing in the winter here and they were running national games, people would be tuning in in late December, early January, and they're up to their you know what in snow, and there are people in shirt sleeves sitting in the stands in Sun Devil stadium.

>> Chip: Of course, an executive might be out here in a meeting saying this might be a nice place to relocate our business. I think there's a lot of side benefits that Howie is missing.

>> Michael: That's one of the pitches that certainly had been made in the past. Moving from Glendale to Scottsdale, were you surprised by the 6-0 city council vote not to appeal the ruling on taking the Los Arcos Ellman issue to the ballot?

>> Chip: Seems like there has been a sea change in Scottsdale over the last couple of months, and now looks like this is going to go to the ballot, I believe, next March, which I know a lot of residents are cheering because some said, why would we give a $36 million subsidy to the world's richest retailer? So unless Ellman can convince a judge otherwise, looks like it will go to the public in March and they'll decide if Wal-Mart should get a massive subsidy.

>> Michael: There had been some question whether without Scottsdale whether Ellman could appeal. Does just simply remain a question?

>> Chip: I think that's going to be determined. I think he's going to try to forge it alone.

>> Howard: There's an interesting legal question in terms of the real party in interest in the case. Does he have standing? I think Scottsdale would be foolish to go even if they wanted to because of the fact that they're arguing somehow voters should have known several years ago what they had in their minds, and that makes no sense at all.

>> Michael: All right, panelists, we're out of time. Thanks. To share your views or to contact us, please visit our website at www.kaet.asu.edu, click on the word "Horizon," that will lead you to transcripts, links and information on upcoming shows. Speaking of which, let's see what's on Monday's "Horizon."

>> Homeowners have become victims. Are predatory lenders stalking your neighborhood? The Attorney General will tell you what to watch for. Alan Keyes brings his views to the Valley. And the joys and challenges of being a foster parent, Monday night at 7:00 on Channel 8's "Horizon."

>> Michael: Tuesday Mexican president fox will be in town. We'll tell you about the visit. Wednesday a legislative update on the special session. Thursday the governor will be here. Thanks very much for being here on a Friday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a very scary weekend. Good night.

 

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