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October 21, 2003

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· KAET-ASU Poll;
· Prison funding;
· Prison alternatives
In-Studio Guests:
Dr. Bruce Merrill, Director of KAET-ASU Poll and Arizona State University professor;
State Senators Bob Burns (R) and Bill Brotherton (D);
Republican State Representative Bill Konopnicki

>> Michael: Tonight on "Horizon," the latest KAET, ASU poll shows overwhelming support for governor Janet Napolitano's plan to help Child protective services but her plans for prison crowding is of concern. And how the government wants to temporarily house a new influx of prison inmates and we'll hear from a lawmaker whose committee is considering alternatives of sentencing people to prison as a way to deal with overcrowding. New evidence tonight that the pipeline break that caused a gas shortage in the valley might have been leaking long before it burst. The kinder Morgan pipeline spilled July 30th near Tucson the department of environmental quality inspector Stevens says tests found contaminated ground water 150 feet below the surface. That means much more than 10,000 gallons could have spilled and there could have been leakage over a long period of time. The latest poll shows overwhelming support for the governor's proposal to increase funding for the Child protective services but lukewarm support for her plan to address prison overcrowding. That poll was conducted over the weekend. It gauged the opinion of some 386 registered voters.

>> Reporter: The poll found that 81% surveyed thought the main mission of Child protective services should be to protect the Child. 9% had no opinion. Turning to the CPS funding:. When it came to pumping $8.5 million into the CPS to bring case loads down to national standards: Turning to prison overcrowding, another special session topic. The governor also wants to spend 700 million dollars over 15 years to create permanent space for 9,000 inmates. Finally the governor would like to Institute a shock incarceration program to reduce stays for inmates.

>> Michael: Joining me now is ASU professor Bruce Merrill. He is director of the poll and here is Mr. Derrigan Silver who assists with the poll. Good to see both of you. You went back to when we had asked prison related questions four or five years ago and a dramatic difference.

>>Bruce Merrill: it changed very significantly. Five years ago there was overwhelming support, 65, 70% from the people, registered voters of in Arizona supported building more prisons. That's quite a change in four or five years.

>> Michael: To what would you attribute that? Are we going softer on crime or are we concerned about money? What?

>>Bruce: it's obviously a complex issue, Michael but there's several things. One is media coverage. Five or six years ago every poll we did we asked what the most important crime facing Arizona. It was crime, violence, drive-by shootings. Recently there's more media coverage of child issues, particularly Child protective services and some of the human tragedies not only here in Arizona but around the nation. That is a big factor. I think also the tightness of money, the budget crunch has happened in the last five years and people are having like the legislate tours to make hard choices. Kids come out higher than prisons.

>> Michael: Derrigan as we conduct the poll you don't necessarily ask for comments from the people but people will offer the comments. Where they reflecting knows kinds of factors in their comments?

>>Derrigan Silver: you know, Michael, a lot of respondents were saying something has to be done. A lot of them were mentioning the different press coverages across the state. When it came to prisons, people didn't think money was the answer they wanted. A lot of people were asking mandatory minimum sentences and letting less violent offenders go. They didn't think money would make it go away.

>> Michael: I assume the response to the shock incarceration supports that theory?

>>Derrigan: absolutely. One of the things going on right now is people dent understand the what the shock incarceration program is but it reduces the amount of time people are spending in prison. It would be a more intense stay in prison and people were supportive of that, Michael.

>> Michael: I wonder because we have discussed dozens of times on the show, you have to be careful about how the load the questions and shock incarceration seems to be a loaded term that brings a positive response. Yeah, I'll go with that.

>>Bruce: I think that's true but remember what we were trying to do with this poll is test the governor's propositions. That's the language she used in her web page and her press release in terms of trying to get these threw through. It's a harsh word but he is right, people are beginning to say before we put people away we ought to look at other way it's take care of this problem rather than just spending more money and building more prisons.

>> Michael: Incidentally, we'll be talking about alternatives later in the program. Okay, let's shift to the CPS results. On both scores, the additional funding for CPS and the structural changes for CPS people indicated they were in support of it?

>>Derrigan: Absolutely. When people hear the term CPS they think of the two young boys in cages and the young girl sold into prostitution. Those are the things in mind. Very few people weren't willing to spend more money on protecting children like. That when you ask about the terms what is amazing because it was so overwhelming supportive to change the mission why are we waiting until now. It's a in thar of press coverage. Bruce and I were talking it's been coming up in the press more and more. People see that it's a change that needs to be made.

>> Michael: Not much difference in demographics when you went to the subsets on data?

>>Bruce: you know, in fact, Michael, these issues, prison reforming CPS are the only issues that we have looked at in several years that there were not significant differences between Republicans and democrats and independents and conservatives and liberals. There were none. This cut across all political and all demographic categories except one. You might expect that. Women were even more supportive than men. Men were supportive, women incredibly supportive.

>> Michael: Eke. Bruce Merrill thank you very much for the information.

>>Bruce: thanks for the volunteers, too.

>> Michael: Our thanks to all the volunteers. They are a critical component of this process. Derrigan Silver good to see you as well.

>>Derrigan: thanks.

>> Michael: Legislative leadership is not pleased with the governor's proposal to ease prison crowding. I'll talk to lawmakers about the governor's plan but first Paul takes a closer look at the proposal.

>> Reporter: An unprecedented number of jail inmates have been sent to state prison in the last year. The Arizona prison population stood at 31,095 in September. The problem is the prison system only as 27,000 dedicated deaves meaning thousands sleep in tents on double bunks or floors.

>>Michael Haener: when the correctional officer walks through there it's difficult for them to see what is happening and what is going on. So there is a security concern with that. And again, there's also public safety concern and concern for, you know the inmates as well. >> Reporter: That's one of reasons why governor Janet Napolitano called a special session. >>Janet Napolitano: to ensure that our prisons continue to safely house inmates I'll be asking the legislature for $26.4 million for the department of corrections, $9 million of that will come from the corrections fund which is basically made up from sin taxes like alcohol and tobacco and $17.4 will come from the general fund.

>> Reporter: Here is how the governor wants to spend the money:. The governor's funding question includes. The benefits were accidentally left out of current budget.

>>Janet: the number one problem we have right now is overcrowding. We're rapidly approaching maximum capacity and beyond. We must address this situation before it becomes a crisis.

>> Reporter: The governor said she would not utilize private prisons to ease overcrowding. Janet Napolitano announce a contract for a privately owned 3200 bed women's facility will not go forward in Pinal county but said a 1200 bed facility in kingman was a go.

>>Janet: as we construct new prison we must be smarter about how we build. We can savings billions by expanding existing facilities and regrouping inmates rather than paying for new privatized prisons.

>> Reporter: Legislature live leaders think not pursuing the option of private prisons is a mistake.

>>Jake Flake: these private prisons is something we need to look at. The governor isn't looking at that. Even though we have some of it in the state they are some of the people that can bring additional beds into play faster than any other thing we can do.

>> Reporter: Governor Janet Napolitano backed off her insistence that they consider long range construction that would add 9,000 beds at a cost of $700 million. the governor wants lawmakers to concentrate on a request to approve the money to ease prison overcrowding.

>> Michael: Joining me to talk about the proves is bob burns and senator bill brotherton who serves on the senate judiciary committee. Gentlemen, welcome back. Senator, burns, I'm confused as usual. I didn't think that the governor's long term plan was necessarily intended to be part of this special session. It's clearly on the table. Was that your understanding as well or did you think that she wanted the legislature to get into that in the special session?

>>Bob Burns: it was my understanding it was part of special session. I had specifically seen it in the call but when we had leadership meetings and talked about the issues, that was one of the issues we had on the table for discussion. I made the assumption I guess that it would be part of the special session.

>> Michael: Senator brotherton how did you read that?

>>Bill Brotherton: my understanding when I spoke to the governor and her folks was that at one point in time, maybe a number of weeks ago, there was discussion of doing that but the call was made and it was based on dealing with the short term crisis we have with overcrowding and the idea of dealing with the long term $700 million plan was not to be a part of this special session.

>> Michael: How do you read the poll results we just talked about on the show?

>>Bill: I'm not really sure. I think that to some degree folks are seeing that the increasing size of the prison population isn't translating in their neighborhoods to less crime. I think they realize that at $650 million and growing every year that perhaps incarcerating the number ever people we are for the types of crimes we are is really not having the effect on crime and on neighborhoods that we would want it to have.

>> Michael: Senator burns, how did you read it?

>>Bob: well, I guess I have a little bit of a problem with polls. I think that the background information sometimes may be some what lacking. I think people need to understand the situation that we are in. Our checkbook is about $400 million plus out of balance this fiscal year. We resolved those problems with the credit card. One time funding mechanisms and accounting gym Micks that I don't necessarily approve of but that was the will of body. We're looking at probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $800 to $900 million deficit in the next budget cycle starting in January and so any way we go about solving this problem, I think needs to be address the financial side. We need to look for better ways to do the job at a lower cost. I don't believe that people want hardened criminals out on the street. We do definitely need to expand our system. We need to do that for the protection of our employees and the prisoners as well and the public.

>> Michael: Well, let me go to the short term proposal that is currently on the table. Roughly $27 million for immediate needs is that going to fly?

>>Bob: I don't know. We haven't seen the legislation. I think that the special session could have been organized much better than it has been. We could have done a little more upfront work or a lot more and maybe shortened this session up there. Are a number of private prison operators out there who are willing to step up and help us out of this situation.

>> Michael: Out of state?

>>Bob: out of state. We have private prisons in state. We have some here in the state now. The auditor general did a study on private prisons a couple years ago and showed like a 12% savings if we use private as opposed to the public. If we're in a crisis situation, there's at least one company that has told me that they have 1400 beds available as of tomorrow if necessary in Oklahoma.

>>Michael: Put that in context though. You mentioned a 12% number there, would we only be dealing with a difference then between $27 million and I'm doing fast math, it's always dangerous and $24 million?

>>Bob: right it would be a 25% savings on operation. Operations either way the public or the private. The big savings come to the state of Arizona is if we involve the private and news private money instead of public money to build it. That's more of a long term issue that will take a while.

>> Michael: The speaker suggests that private prisons ought to be more carefully looked at. What do you think?

>>Bill: I think -- if we get back to what the special is about and why the governor called the special. For the short term which is dealing with the prison overcrowding we have 4,000 people and climbing at 160 a month, private prisons are part of the mix. They are looking at about 1600 provisional beds and private prisons would be something that would be looked at. Part of the money, too is looked at for creating 400 beds by June in a level one facility and then looking at using jails in Coconino county and I believe maybe Mohave --

>> Michael: Navaho county?

>>Bill: perhaps it was to house pep. In the short term that's being looked at. In the long term, that's why the long term hasn't been brought forward in the special session. There's a debate about private prisons. I have seen a DOJ study where they showed a 1% savings and significantly higher numbers of assaults involving staff and inmates. So that is something that I think rightly is being left to the seg session to debate long term how we deal with it.

>> Michael: What about the experience that we had in Texas. My memory is mushy on the details but it sounds to me like the Texans weren't quite tough enough for the Arizonans. >>Bob: I actually saw a couple of reports on that. One of those reports came from our own department of corrections. It didn't sound like it was quite as serious as what was being reported. So I think there was some start up issues that got involved in that. I think we have had examples of problems in our own public prisons. In we get into this, you know, they did it this way and we do this way debate we waste a lot of time. We can find examples of, you know, problems -- we're not dealing with the best of folks when we're dealing in the prison situations. I think you can have trouble in both. There are studies out there that show that the private sector does a fine job. So it's something I think we ought to at least take advantage in especially in these tight financial times.

>> Michael: Part of this request is money for stipends and health and retirement pay increases is that a good idea?

>>Bill: yes, because for several years now. Many years we have been having a problem with retaining DOC employees. This is a dangerous public safety job. And in some of the prison facilities we have there's as much as vacancy rate of one third. You have a situation where a lot of these people are having to work overtime. For weeks at a time. They have families. And many of them are moving on to find other jobs that don't have quite the demands on them and many times pay more. The idea is to try to train these folks and retain them with benefits that are going to make them want to stay.

>> Michael: Good idea to shore up the work force?

>>Bob: that's been a problem, yes. One of the things that senator brotherton didn't mention is that we have our prisons scattered around the state. In some cases there's a considerable travel involved getting to and from work. So the department has worked over the years to come up with these different incentives to try and improve the situation. I think that we need to look at that very closely. We need to make that a better place to work.

>> Michael: Senator bob burns thanks for being here. Senator bill brotherton thanks to you as well. Since the conclusion of the regular session in June a study committee has been looking at alternatives to prison. Already governor Janet Napolitano has proposed an alternative to deal with patrol violators a four-month program focusing on treatment and education.

>>Michael Haener: the director of department of corrections needs to continue to work with county attorneys and the court and law enforcement so that they all understand and the elements of that problem. And what it actually means and how it is going to be effective. It's again not letting people out. It's changing the way that the prison system works for those technical parole violators.

>> Michael: Joining me is representative bill Konopnicki. He chairs the alternatives to sentences work group. What about the shock incarceration deal is that a good idea?

>> Bill Konopnicki: I think it's a great idea. When we consider that 45% of the folks we have incarcerate ready there because of technical violations and parole. It's worth looking at. It will give us the opportunity to not have them reincarcerated for their full term and maybe a difference in their life.

>> Michael: Is the mechanics of that basically -- let's say you have been sentenced to parole for 12 months and you violate that in the second month. Normally would you go back for 10 the concept here is, no you would only go back for 09 days but it would be some pretty -- how is it intense?

>>Bill: first of all let's talk. What would happen is they go back for the 12 months. They wouldn't get any credit for the time they had. Typically it's third violation. What happens is they pull them back into the prison the idea of making it intense is having it like it would be an Intense parole. They are more accountable. Typically they are alcohol or drug related and have a little more freedom. They wouldn't have that. It's something we ought to take a look at. It has worked in other states.

>> Michael: Mandatory sentencing giving judges more discretion than they have in some situations. You are looking at that.

>>Bill: the prosecutors have control the now. That was designed to be tough on crime and allows plea agreements. The judge has very little control. It looks like the judge ought to have discretion in the is decisions they make. We have lots of exams when people are on a second or third class six felony for a small amount of money with a 7-10 year sentence that is out of balance. >> Michael: The argument is that you moved the discretion from the judge to the prosecutor. You didn't take discretion out of the process you moved it. Do you buy that argument?

>>Bill: that's exactly right. We need the judge to have influence and make decisions and it won't amount to that many cases but the ones it does involve it will be a significant difference in the sentence or it could be.

>>Michael: what about the so called truth in sentencing provisions? If I recall correctly right now there's a requirement that prisoner actually serve 85% of the time they are sentenced to is that being looked at?

>>Bill: we're looking at it. For violent crimes, rapes and crimes against children we wouldn't change it. They need to be that way. But when you consider 55% of folks are there for DUI or drug related charges typically non-violent. We might be able to motivate them and couple that with treatment to reduce the number to 50%. With the idea that when they are out we have more control over them. They have to be accountable for a longer period of time and change their behavior hopefully.

>> Michael: The argument that advanced what that -- when that proposal came along was that you were gaming the system. On paper you were saying okay, armed robbery 3-8 years but what it amounted to was 14 months. And the system not sending a strong enough message as a result of that. What do you think?

>>Bill: those are good points and on the violent crimes the sentences need to be long and people serve them. The problem is that we have so many crimes that don't involve other folks that are self-inflicted type things people do and we need to provide them some way to get treatment, change their lives and actually reduce the amount of crime when they get out.

>> Michael: Electronic monitoring can technology does it do much for us is or is it overblown?

>>Bill: I believe it's the wave of future. The active has a GPS that can measure the blood alcohol content. Especially after the first DUI when there's no jail time but we can keep track of. They better. Couple that with counseling and make a difference in the number of folks that would maybe get the second DUI.

>> Michael: Is the ability to police that bad? From the cost standpoint that is essential but you have to have someone watching the results. Does that wash out the savings that you would think would be associated with it?

>>Bill: it's possible. There's a way to beat anything but all the information we have looked at and tested it it's a viable alternative to the future. As we deal with more crime and less violent crimes we owe it to ourselves to take a look at it.

>> Michael: Thanks for the information. Here is a look at what is on "Horizon" tomorrow.

>>Reporter: it is national domestic violence awareness month. Hear a woman's story and a panel of local domestic violence prevention advocates discuss funding on the issue. That's Wednesday at 7:00. .

>> Michael: Thursday we take a look at the impact on Arizona of the Supreme Court's decision not to review medical marijuana laws and on Friday we talk about the week's top stories on the journalist's roundtable. Thanks for joining us on this Tuesday evening. I'm Michael grant. Have a great one. Good night.

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