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November 26, 2003

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· CLEAR (Clear Law Enforcement for Criminal Alien Removal) Act 2003;
· Kartchner Caverns Big Room
In-Studio Guests:
Steve Gallardo, State Representative;
Randy Graf, State Representative;
Steve Montoya, attorney;
Ken Travous, Director of ArizonaState Parks

MICHAEL GRANT:
Tonight on "Horizon" we look at a bill in congress that would allow local law enforcement to impose federal immigration laws. Plus, Kartchner. Caverns state park has something new for visitors to marvel at. The "big room" is now open. Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. First up, in the news. As you know, in the past few days congress has been working on the Medicare bill. Another piece of legislation being considered in congress would require law enforcement agencies to enforce federal immigration laws. Some police worry that the burden to guard the border will fall on them. The bill, called the clear act, for clear law enforcement for criminal alien removal, requires law enforcement agencies to check the immigration status of anybody they encounter or lose their federal funding. The issue was discussed recently on our "Horizonte" program. Jose Cardenas was joined by state representatives Steve Gallardo and Randy Graf. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us on "Horizonte."

>> JOSE CARDENAS:
Thank you.

JOSE CARDENAS:
Representative Graf, there's a lot going on in Congress by way immigration, why this bill and why now?

>> RANDY GRAF:
I think we can all agree that immigration policy needs a huge debate at the federal level right now. There have been a number of bills introduced in congress this year dealing with guest worker legislation all the way to measures house resolution 2671 which is the clear act introduced by Mr. Norwood from Georgia. We agree that something needs to be done, illegal immigration has tremendous impact on Arizona and the citizens, it's the reason we need to take an interest in this particular bill, along with all the other legislation and have our input.

JOSE CARDENAS:
Representative Gallardo, I assume you agree there is a need for federal legislation. Is the clear act what we need right now?

>> STEVE GALLARDO:
Definitely not. The clear act is primarily a "bandaid" approach to dealing with illegal immigration. It bogs down law enforcement to do what they're there for. They are there to fight and investigate crimes. This would add another burden to law enforcement. It adds very little, if any, appropriations to our local state government in order to carry out a lot of the INS duties. This is a way for federal government to say, look, we failed on enforcing our immigration policies, let's pass it on to state and local government and have them do the job we're supposed to be doing. There's a need for some immigration reform, there's a need for a great debate on immigration, but this is clearly not the solution.

JOSE CARDENAS:
Doesn't it make sense to turn to law enforcement because they have the manpower?

>> STEVE GALLARDO:
That's one of the myths in terms of this particular bill. This bill adds another level of responsibility to law enforcement, it does not give them additional manpower, doesn't give them any type of additional funding. The funding it does put out is very little and it does nothing to help law enforcement in terms of what they are there to do, what they're there for, and that is to fight crime.

JOSE CARDENAS:
What representative Gallardo says echoes what we're hearing from the Phoenix police department, Santa Cruz county sheriff that their hands are full already and this is something they don't want to be responsible for. What do you say about that?

>> RANDY GRAF:
I can understand the concerns because of the drain on resources Steve just mentioned. However I think this is being unfairly characterized. This act is simply authorizing state and local police agencies to do many of the things they are currently doing. And that is when they come across someone that they feel is an illegal alien, in this country illegally, that they have the authority to arrest and detain these folks as an aid and resource to the federal immigration authorities. We have roughly 2000 INS agents to try to deal with a problem where we have hundreds of thousands -- I should say millions of illegal aliens in the country. Many have been asked to come for deportation hearings and vanished. There are measures that will allow local law enforcement to be a mechanism to help the federal government. And there are some funding mechanisms in place in this legislation. There are some training measures taken. We are not asking local law enforcement with this bill that i read to go out and act like ins agents and try to find illegal aliens, it's in their normal course of business as they come across people they suspect are here illegally, they can have the resources, the authority and I certainly hope the resources would come with it to deal with that population.

JOSE CARDENAS:
It does give them the authority that you're talking about, but doesn't impose sanctions should they choose not to exercise the authority? Isn't that one of the concerns that they have?

>> RANDY GRAF:
One of the sanctions, we will need to put in statutes within two years of the enactment of this law that makes sure this is carried out by our local law enforcement agencies. Otherwise, are there some dollar problems at the local law enforcement agency? There could be. It's trying to help curb a huge problem in this country that until now the congress has failed to act on. It's time that something like this be put in place, and utilize the tens of thousands of local law enforcement agencies that are patrolling our streets, in our neighborhoods and trying to take care of problems that illegal immigration causes in these same neighborhoods. Right now, if they apprehend someone that is here illegally, most of the time they are let go and it's hard to do a criminal background check. This bill will put in that illegal aliens will be put in the ncic, and give local law enforcement and the federal government the opportunity to track people that come into this country, violated our federal immigration laws and deal with them appropriately.

JOSE CARDENAS:
One of the concerns I assume, Representative Graf, you talked about the enforcement agencies making determinations if somebody is here illegally. Representative Gallardo, how do they do that without engaging in racial profiling?

>> STEVA GALLARDO:
I myself, fourth generation Arizonan, how many times will be I asked for proof of citizenship and how many times will Mr. Graf be? The issue of racial profiling does exist, especially with this particular piece of legislation. The perfect examples are the Native American folks here on the Indian reservations. Most part, most of them do not speak English, they don't have proof of citizenship. In particular, the elderly folks are not born in hospitals for the most part, they are born on the reservation and they have a hard time trying to prove residency status. One particular issue in this regard to this particular legislation, currently the Arizona State legislature is in special session dealing with prison overcrowding. This particular bill would mandate anyone who is caught unlawfully in the United States who would be subject to one year in prison. This adds to our problems at the state level. Instead of making this a civil penalty, it turns into a criminal penalty. It is wrong, it is bad public policy and it would be costly for the state of Arizona, with no federal money coming down. It's an un-funded mandate and not the way to go about it. We agree we need immigration reform, this is not how you would do.

JOSE CARDENAS:
What is the immigration reform that you would propose?

>> STEVE GALLARDO:
A guest worker program. This is something that's been kicked around by many folks, including many of our own congressional delegations who have introduced the bill currently in congress to create a guest worker program in our country, something that is needed, something that should be discussed and debated and this is a perfect avenue in which we can accomplish our immigration problems.

>> RANDY GRAF:
The guest worker program without doing some other immigration reforms is not the answer. The sheer numbers coming into this country illegally, you had the shooting on i-10 a couple weeks ago that highlights the problem. After that shooting, the federal government came in with a task force to put more resources into that, illegal alien arrests, or apprehensions went up by almost 25% in the first week over the previous week. We are the most generous immigration friendly country on this planet. Legal immigration policy is over a million people annually. We cannot afford to have guest worker programs that allow an unlimited number of guest workers into the country with no real tracking mechanism. The numbers on illegal immigrants in this country, anywhere from 3 million to 15 million. Up to 60 percent of them came in here legally on a guest worker program, student visa and overstayed the visa or their right to be here.

>> STEVE GALLARDO:
How exactly --

>> RANDY GRAF:
This will give local law enforcement the opportunity, if they come across those people in their daily routine, traffic stops and everything, to deal with those people. If there are concerns about racial profiling, from what I understand the sponsor of the bill is going to add a racial profiling training component into this bill. It's not asking law enforcement to go out and try to find illegal aliens, but in the normal course of business if they find them they will be able to do something with them. And there is money in here for incarceration funding.

>> STEVE GALLARDO:
Inadequate funding. This is a "bandaid" approach. The Transguard article that you're referring to is a temporary task force that ends on Tuesday. Again, it's a "bandaid" to the issue.

JOSE CARDENAS:
Our own congressional delegation is split on this, I think it is 3-3 right now, Kolbe and Grijalva and Flake opposed. And flake's point, as I understand it, is the priority should be guest worker program or some kind of a guest worker program. Do you disagree with that?

>> RANDY GRAF:
I'm not opposed to a guest worker program but a guest worker program will not work unless we are willing to enforce immigration laws that are currently on the books. There are 111 congressmen that have signed on to this bill. That's an extraordinary amount of legislators that have signed on to the bill. Once again, how can you have a guest worker program that will allow an unlimited number of guest workers into this country, provide amnesty for an unlimited number of other folks that are here and say you're not going to shut down and enforce the rest of the border, when we have like i said the most generous programs for allowing people to come into this country legally.

JOSE CARDENAS:
Mr. Gallardo, we are running out of time, this will be the last word.

>> STEVE GALLARDO:
It adds stricter penalties, it will become a greater burden to taxpayers in the state. It's inadequate funding. It's almost impossible for law enforcement to enforce it. That's where the racial profiling comes in, it's a big concern to a lot of folks, it's an unfunded mandate, bad for Arizona and bad for the taxpayers.

JOSE CARDENAS:
Steve, Randy, thank you for joining us.

MICHAEL GRANT:
One part of the clear act provides broad immunity to law enforcement personnel and agencies, protecting them from personal liability lawsuits for enforcing immigration laws. You might recall when local police partnered with federal immigration agents in Chandler to round up illegal immigrants in 1997. The operation brought the searching and detention of hundreds of American citizens based on their assumed illegal status. Lawsuits and public anger resulted. The settlement cost of the city of Chandler hundreds of thousands of dollars, and lead to a new police department policy. Joining me now to discuss the clear act and recall the Chandler incident, attorney Steve Montoya, who represented some of the plaintiffs in the case. Steve, good to see you again. Total settlement in the Chandler case, around half a million bucks?

>> STEVE MONTOYA:
Here were two lawsuits, and the total settlement with both lawsuits combined was probably about $700,000.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Let me touch on a couple of points involved to Chandler and moved in the clear act in relation. I think one of the problems in Chandler was the local police department had not been properly certified, it was not authorized to work with or work as an agent of ins. If you had the clear act, that problem would not exist, correct?

>> STEVE MONTOYA:
That is true. Under the present regime, Mike, local law enforcement entities can apply to the justice department to obtain certification to enforce federal immigration law for a specific period of time if they obtain specific training that provides them the background to enforce immigration law. Clear, however, would negate that requirement and allow all local law enforcement agencies to automatically enforce immigration law. I think that is dangerous. Enforcing federal immigration law is very, very difficult and requires extensive training.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Why can't you have local law enforcement personnel, incident to perhaps another violation they are investigating or stopping for, check for appropriate documentation and then turn the person over to the immigration and naturalization -- I think it's now the department of homeland security. Turn the person over to ins so local law enforcement official is not called necessarily to interpret that law, simply to refer to the agency that would seem to be better trained in that area.

>> STEVE MONTOYA:
That can happen under the present law if the local law enforcement agency obtains certification. If they are holding someone for a violation of local law, and local law enforcement agencies in Maricopa county put what is called an INS hold on the detainee and they release the person only to the INS and the INS sometimes releases the person because the person turns out to be a citizen in the United States or a lawful immigrant in the United States or they deport the person. That is happening under the present regime.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Issue number two in Chandler I believe was the dragnet at suspect of it, lack of not only probable cause but perhaps even reasonable suspicion. Here you would have a situation where for example, a stop has been made with probable cause and incidental to that just proof of citizenship is requested. Does that address that second aspect of the chandler episode?

>> STEVE MONTOYA:
Not really because clear goes further than that. Presently drafted, local law enforcement officials would not only be free but would be obliged to enforce federal immigration law.

MICHAEL GRANT:
That's the way you read it. Obviously what we saw on tape here, there seemed to be tension between the two sides on whether or not it would be incidental to the activities of local law enforcement authority or the actual charge.

>> STEVE MONTOYA:
The draft of the legislation doesn't use the term incidental and allows local law enforcement officers to provide local law enforcement entities with extensive jurisdiction to enforce federal immigration law incident to local activities or not. It could be incidental in some cases, in other cases it would be primary. Regardless of what it is, you're going to have some of the same basic problems. A lost lot of local law enforcement officials are against this law for a very simple reason. They have a very simple but difficult job, to catch criminals. In order to catch criminals you need witnesses. Sometimes, especially in states like Arizona, especially in counties like Maricopa, the witnesses are undocumented immigrants. If in fact undocumented immigrants are afraid to report crimes to local law enforcement officials because they fear they are going to be arrested in the process, law enforcement officials at the local level are going to be more challenged in enforcing their duties than otherwise. That's a bad thing.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Do you have any hunch how frequently that happens right now?

>> STEVE MONTOYA:
It depends. I don't think, I think it depends region to region or area to area. For example, I think the members of the Phoenix police department who are against this believe that undocumented immigrants call them and ask for their assistance on a daily basis, especially in some areas of Maricopa county. I think the threat is very real. Even if what you're suggesting is true, undocumented workers are already fearful, they don't need additional incentive to be more fearful we want them to cooperate.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Steve, thank you very much. A good holiday to you.

>> STEVE MONTOYA:
Thank you.

MICHAEL GRANT:
It is an ecological wonder that few have had the opportunity to see, until now. The "big room" of Kartchner caverns state park in southeastern Arizona opened this month. Inside it you will find strange and wonderful formations such as soda straw stalactites "turnip" shields and many other unusual formations like totems, helictites and rimstone dams. The rotunda and throne room of Kartchner caverns has been open to the public since 1999. Joining me now to talk more about Kartchner caverns state park, Ken Travous, director of Arizona state parks. Good to see you again.

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
Nice to be back.

MICHAEL GRANT:
This is a big room, I understand.

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
The other two rooms that are opened could fit comfortably in the room we just opened to the public.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Was the big room known at the same time that Kartchner caverns were known?

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
The big room was discovered first. The throne room was a three quarter mile crawl from the big room to the throne room. The work got done in the throne room and rotunda first.

MICHAEL GRANT:
I think all of us understand what a stalactite is. And a stalagmite. What is a helictite?

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
They're little things that go off in all directions. In Europe they call them eccentrics, they want go where they want to go, and we have them by the thousands.

MICHAEL GRANT:
They crawl out of the wall at different angles?

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
They defy gravity. And the turnips are only known in Kartchner caverns, and they look like turnips. We have no idea what causes them, nobody has ever seen them before.

MICHAEL GRANT:
What's a turnip shield?

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
It's a globe, looks like an ornament on a Christmas tree. We suspect that they're hollow but our ethics says we don't take one apart to find had out. We may never know until some other cave find one.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Is one of the other special things about the big room is the fact that it's big?

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
You get a big feeling in the rotunda room. The big room, even though bigger, you go through the sides of it more. It's almost like going into a museum where you go into room after room after room. You get a panorama at one point.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Give us an idea of the dimensions of the big room.

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
It's 250 yards long. The center, highest most part would be 150-250 feet high. Bigger than a football field, one and a half times the size of a football field.

MICHAEL GRANT:
That's amazing. Let me go back to one of the things we talk about from time to time about Kartchner caverns. Environmentally, how is it holding up?

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
The cave is some degrees dryer in humidity, a degree or so higher in temperature. We are tracking that now with data and finding out if it's tracking with that. We're not yet ready to assume it's just the climate. We are in the process of trying to sort out what is human caused and what is climate caused.

>> MICHAEL GRANT:
You have a six year drought obviously impacting?

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
When we get a rain, it comes through fairly quickly. You need sustained rain. In the rotunda is a mud flat that has been dry for a long time now. At times it's been a lake. So we're going to have to wait for that lake to come back and super saturate the mud in the rotunda room.

MICHAEL GRANT:
You were telling me before we went on the air that the baseline data for the room was gathered during the 10 wettest years we have had in a long time.

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
We started in the early '80's and started at the end of 10 wettest years. What we are seeing right now might be normal but what is normal? Over periods of drought, normal it's going to change.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Enormously popular attraction. Put that in context.

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
We are full up through the holidays. People are calling. We have just started putting together a map from where people are calling from. It is an international hit. We are full every day.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Are the tours by guide only?

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
By two. We have one guy that leads the tour and the other guy goes behind and learns the tour and makes sure people don't touch things. You are so close to things in the big room that you could literally touch something and break off something that took 10,000 years ago.

MICHAEL GRANT:
How far in advance do you want to book a reservation?

>> KEN TRAVOUS:
If you are looking at taking a family of four to six, probably in January.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Ken, thank you for the information.

MICHAEL GRANT:
For transcripts of this program and related links, you can go to our website. That address is www.kaet.asu.edu. Click on "Horizon" and follow the links. You can also see what's on upcoming "Horizon" programs.

MICHAEL GRANT:
Tomorrow "Horizon" will be off for the thanksgiving holiday. Join me Friday for a tribute to CBS' Andy Rooney, honored by Arizona State University with the Walter Cronkite award for excellence in journalism. I hope you have a great holiday. Thanks very much for being here this evening. I'm Michael Grant. Good night.

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