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November 21, 2003

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· The Journalists Roundtable
In-Studio Guests:
· Barrett Marson, "Arizona Daily Star;"
· Bart Graves, KFYI radio;
· Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services

>> Michael Grant: It's Friday, November 21, 2003. In the headlines this week state lay makers have just completed the fifth week of a special session. While there's still no end in sight some are heading home for the holidays. There was some controversy this week over what Phoenix Mayor elect Phil Gordon actually said about a smoking ban. And the Massachusetts court ruling on gay marriage could impact a similar case involving an Arizona couple. Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. This is the Journalists Roundtable. Joining me to talk about these and other stories are Barrett Marson from the "Arizona Daily Star," Bart Graves from KFYI radio, and Howard Fischer of Capitol Media Services. State lawmakers have wrapped up their fifth week of a special session with no end in sight. Barrett, how much is the special session costing taxpayers?

>>Barrett Marson: $43,000 a week and that includes both per diem and mileage and the extra staff that's needed, and $for 43,000 a week over five weeks we've gotten three bills so far.

>> Michael Grant: They're taking next week off? Senate may not take part of next week off.

>>Barrett Marson: The house has decided it's worked hard enough, it's going to take the next week off. The Senate, on the other hand, family services committee will meet at least on Monday. Whether there are any official meetings after that is unclear. But they're at least some members of the Senate will meet on Monday.

>>Howard Fischer: Part of the problem has to do with the makeup of both houses. The house has a very strong Republican edge, and there are a lot of lawmakers that say, okay, this is what the leadership wants on prisons and on CPS. We'll vote for it. This isn't the play. The play is in the Senate which is much more closely divided where you have more moderate Republicans who are not willing to March to the leadership's tune and so that's been the hangup because they have a prison bill over there that is vastly different what the house passed, a CPS bill that's somewhat different what from what the house passed and the big problem is the governor doesn't like any of the bills.

>>Barrett Marson: The problem with the house is they've approved a prison bill, they're about set to approve a CPS bill and they've attempted no negotiation with either Democrats or the 9th floor, and they can do what they want and they can say they've accomplished something.

>> Michael Grant: Of course, Bart, in some faireous to the legislature, the leadership had warned the governor when she called the special session back -- let's see, this is 2003 -- no, back a ways, that we've got no consensus on this thing, so calling it at this point may be a real problem.

>>Bart Graves: We put that question to her. They say it's your fault. That maybe you should have gotten together ahead of time with them and figured out a game plan. And she said every past governor, including this one, has called a special session, and they always say the same thing, we don't have a game plan. They never have a game plan. They don't have a game plan whether in town or out of town.

>> Michael Grant: Historically there have been a series of situations where they've actually moved and in, and I think the world record was, what, Howie, one day, four hours, so there had been some --

>>Howard Fischer: And that's -- to be fair to the governor, this issue required a certain amount of not just education in terms of a lot of freshmen law makers this year, but also it's going to require a lot of people getting off their stance and you could sit and negotiate with the leadership, you could sit down with the Ken Bennetts and sit down with the Jake flake and a an Eddie Farnsworth in the house and perhaps come up with an idea and still have the Russell Pearce's of the world throwing bombs and tearing it apart. This one, I think, does require everyone being there, seeing where the votes are, seeing what the political realities are. I'm not saying it should be five weeks and counting but this one did require folks being here.

>>Barrett Marson: But not only that, I think the governor's office is finding it easier to negotiate with the moderate Republicans easier than with Senate or house leadership and so, therefore, you got to bring them in and get what they want and what they need because they're obviously going to be the swing votes for her and her plan.

>> Michael Grant: Understanding that nothing is going to happen at least until the first week in December, Barrett, give us some idea of where the corrections, the prison bill or bills stand at this point in time.

>>Barrett Marson: Senate leadership realized that not only were they not going to get the bill they wand out, it was going to be drastically different and much closer to what maybe the governor wanted and so they have now decided to negotiate with Democrats and they're sitting down, leadership from both sides are sitting down and discussing options and looking at various things they can do. There might be even by next week some reasonable agreement in the Senate only on how to proceed.

>> Michael Grant: Maybe turn this thing into a temporary fix only and put off longer-term solutions until the regular session?

>>Barrett Marson: Not only that, but also allow -- there is one long-term solution that's on the table and that's been building a 1600-bed facility and allowing state or any public entity, maybe other states, to bid on that also. So they're trying to get those types of things, because the governor believes that her D.O.C. does it cheaper than private prisons.

>> Michael Grant: Now, Child Protective Services, Senate president Ken Bennett comes out with a plan this week that deals with the substantive reforms of CPS and drops some money, obviously a lot less than what the governor wants, on hiring some additional caseworkers and that kind of thing.

>>Howard Fischer: That's really the problem. David burn is the director of the Department of Economic Security and said, look, you have given up these mandates here. You want every case of child abuse investigated. You want us to go ahead and find more foster care homes. You have said do these things, but we believe we need 8 1/2 million just to hire more caseworkers and give them raises and we know based on our rate of spending now we will be at least $27 million in the hole by the end of the fiscal year. Now, we can keep spending at this rate and hope and pray you give us the money at the end, or we can cut back, which is going to mean waiting lists for services, day-care subsidies, waiting lists in terms of getting child abuse cases investigated. The governor wants 35 1/2. This wants 7.4. It actually doesn't have a 7.4 because some of sit money being taken from elsewhere in DES. That's going to be the real hang occupy this. It's not going to be the substantive issues. I think there's some questions that need to be worked out, how open should the court record be, how open should court hearings be, particularly in rural areas even if you don't name names everyone knows everyone.

>>Barrett Marson: But there seems to be a lot of substantial agreement on the issue-based reforms. It now appears really to boil down to money and a few smaller issues that people probably will be able to live with so long as either we get the money or don't get the money.

>>Bart Graves: Nothing -- substantive movement of what the governor asked in terms of mission of the CPS is she wants to change it from keep the family together at all costs to protect the child.

>>Howard Fischer: And everyone has agreed to this, even in terms of Rick Romley's own set of proposals, everyone has agreed that unless you clearly redefine the mission and say, this is your prime directive, it is not keeping the family together, it's not providing services to the family, this is it. Now, Rick, of course, wants to go further. He would actually like to have a whole separate investigative arm in CPS. That may be hard for them to fathom in terms of the costs but the -- it's really going to come down to where are the dollars coming from.

>> Michael Grant: One of the hot button issues likely to appear on the 2004 ballot is an initiative called protect Arizona now, although it has been criticized by some elected officials on Thursday, a group of 23 state lawmakers announced their support for that measure. Bart, why are they endorsing protect Arizona now?

>>Bart Graves: Well, to hear Russell Pearce, who is a state representative, very conservative representative from Mesa, say, they're just trying to get a measure on the ballot to enforce the laws we have on the books. They want to make sure that you and I and everybody that goes in to vote, the very small population that votes in this state present some form of I.D. to verify they're a citizen. This is to pre-haven't illegal aliens from voting. That's the big problem they think is prevalent in the state. And to deny benefits to people who are undocumented migrants, in other words, health benefits so the state is not paying for their medical costs.

>>Howard Fischer: That's the real interesting question, because state law already precludes those who are not here legally from getting access except for emergency care. The federal law precludes them from denying education. So what we're talking about here are library cards, perhaps water service, trash pickup, but the proponents seem to believe that if somehow we pass this law people are going to say, we don't want to cross the border and come into Arizona which is sort of counter-indicated.

>> Michael Grant: Interestingly enough, unless our experience is wildly different than California's, what, 8, 10 years ago on their ballot, it passed overwhelmingly.

>>Barrett Marson: And the court threw most of it out because it violated federal law, and so most of those issues -- the I high-dollar costs -- as we all do, most illegal immigrants do not come here to get a Chandler library card.

>>Howard Fischer: One of the interesting things is a lot --

>> Michael Grant: Maybe.

>>Barrett Marson: Tempe has a great library.

>>Howard Fischer: Look at porn on the Tempe -- never mind. One of the interesting things they keep talking, the protect Arizona now people keep talking about how the polls will show this is pass. Yet we also saw another poll that said, how do you feel about a guest worker program, and it sketched through in great detail what is in the Kolbe, McCain, flake program, in terms of when you're here legally, not here legally, all the things you have to do and 59% of Arizonans like the idea of a guest worker program. So we have this sort of schizophrenic view here. We really don't like illegals and we want to deal with them by throwing them all out but we we would like a guest worker program at the same time.

>> Michael Grant: Perfect segue, I think, to the Mayor elect Phil Gordon statements, sort of schizophrenic on the smoking ban this week. Correct or not?

>>Barrett Marson: Yeah. Well, you know, I think the Mayor -- actually I'm not quite sure where the Mayor stands, if he believes either newspaper, major newspaper in the Valley, the Tribune says that he supports and he wants a regional or statewide smoking ban. The next day "The Arizona Republic" came out and said, quoted a statement from him saying, oh, no, no, no, I'm not supporting anything and we're not doing anything and I'm not fighting for anything. And so a real -- I'm not quite sure exactly what the end is, but Linda Lopez, representative Lopez was blade by his support and now that is gone.

>> Michael Grant: Bart, do you think there's any smoking gun to this story or confusion?

>>Bart Graves: Massive confusion. You have to know Phil Gordon to understand this. He listened to the good doctor give the spiel and he nodded his head and said, that's great, good for you, we'll talk to Neal Giuliano but talking to fellow mayors and actually pushing his council to do it or MAG to do, it is a huge distance between. I don't think it's going to happen.

>> Michael Grant: The governor has got a new press secretary. Who is she?

>>Howard Fischer: She has occasionally sat in that chair, Michael, Jeanine L'Ecuyer, who was in TV for a long time, the commercial side of it, who most recently has been doing P.R. for the fire department in Phoenix and then Sky Harbor airport, has said, hey, this is a really nice job waiting up on the 9th floor of the governor's office and she is going to be essentially the mouthpiece for the governor. While Paul ALBAN took that job over when Crist Mayes quit, Paul is more comfort dealing with policy stuff behind the scenes and I think he likes doing the speech writing stuff and will let Jeanine deal with us media scum.

>>Barrett Marson: At times Paul dreaded having to talk to the likes of Howie on a daily basis about policy and --

>> Michael Grant: I can't believe that.

>>Barrett Marson: He couldn't wait until he could hire somebody else to do that job.

>>Howard Fischer: I think Jeanine will do well. I think Jeanine has a sense of humor, which you have to have. I think some of the people who have served prior governors have taken this all too seriously and said if that's the spin you want to put on it, that you clearly don't build it in friends in the media and don't serve your governor well if you don't have a sense of humor.

>>Bart Graves: She's a TV vet, female, puts softer focus on that office.

>>Barrett Marson: She will be giving us sound bites for everything. >> Michael Grant: Governor has kind of a weird assignment on Monday.

>>Bart Graves: Yes, she will be spending Monday sitting in a jury room in Mesa, doing her civic duty. She gave us a spiel about it's important for everyone to do their civic duty when they get a jury some Mondays in the -- summons in the mail and she will sit there and try to get her work done while being pestered by people probably wanting to get her autograph.

>>Michael Grant: The nice thing about the special session shutting down, she doesn't have to take along the portable veto stamp that.

>>Bart Graves: Somebody asked you are, gee, what if there's a major break through at the state capitol in a special session. She said, I'm not going to hold my breath.

>>Barrett Marson: Meanwhile, what I have heard she is going to do waiting for the -- to decide if she actually gets picked she is going to attempt to get 90 of her fellow potential jurors and see if they'll buy her CPS and prison reforms.

>> Michael Grant: Rule changes being suggested for inaugurals under the clean elections campaign?

>>Howard Fischer: This is a funny little loophole in the law. As you know, if you decide you're going to accept public financing, you can only take a certain amount of upfront seed money, it's up to like $110 for seed money but then once you're actually running you can only take $5 donations from individuals and eventually that gets matched and up to certain numbers of -- normally about $1.6 million for governor although there's ways of adding to that. What happens is you get elected, you want to have an inaugural ball, the state kicks in $50,000, but if you would like something a little fancier, you go to all the special interests, the same ones that you said you're not going to deal with when you're running for office. That that's exactly what Janet Napolitano did last time. She took another $100,000 from special interests and said there is nothing wrong with that. If the purpose is you're not beholden to special interests, the fact you're already elected -- heck, that's a great time to give. You're not even betting on hoot winner is going to be. >>Barrett Marson: And you know the governor-elect at the time made a special point saying we're not taking money from utility companies, for instance, essentially acknowledging that that could be seen as a special interest, giving her money. And yet every other company, I guess, was fine to give her money.

>> Michael Grant: So the rule change --

>>Howard Fischer: The rule change is you will have to live within certain clean election limits which says you can take $100 apiece from donors. If you want to raise $100,000, that's a lot of donors.

>> Michael Grant: Let's close politics segments with one or two or three presidentially related stories. Channel 8 poll this week, Bart, I thought was really interesting. There's a clear anybody but George vote, although it's substantially less than the, yes, we like George vote.

>>Bart Graves: Yes. But he would, I guess -- they were saying, Bruce Merrill of ASU was saying if the election were held today, I guess four candidates, he measured them individually against George Bush, 35 that is continually said Howard Dean or Wesley Clark or Kerry and that doesn't move and bush continued to be the choice.

>> Michael Grant: I don't know that I had ever seen a poll like that. Normally if you would say Kerry 50-42, or, you know, Dean, 50-44, but these were just flat.

>>Howard Fischer: What's fascinating is there was another survey, and even among Republicans, half of the Republicans were looking for someone else. But when actually presented with these four candidates and said, oh, my God, is this what we have to pick from, they say, we'll take the devil we know.

>>Barret Marson: The reason those numbers didn't move is because Al Sharpton was not one of the -

>>Bart Graves: I don't know why he gets left out.

>> Michael Grant: Well, the president is coming to the Valley on Tuesday. What's he going to be doing?

>>Bart Graves: Talking with seniors talk wing about his Medicare reform package and we don't know where that will be by them in terms of the final vote in Congress but the location for this meeting with the seniors has not been finalized yet. There was a location given in the republic today which I guess there is's some problems with. He is in the same afternoon, a very tight schedule, going to have a fund-raiser speech at the Arizona Biltmore where they hope to bring in lots of cash for the cause. Then he's off to Las Vegas for more campaign events.

>> Michael Grant: He has been, Barrett, this week across the pond, as they say, but he wants to get back and start lobbying again heavily for the Medicare proposal pending in Congress and the seniors obvious -- obviously the seniors audience designed to do that.

>>Barrett Marson: The thing is that bill may actually be approved or voted down before he even -- is likely to be approved or voted down before he even gets here. So maybe he's hoping to tell them what they could have had or what they're going to get.

>>Howard Fischer: Part of it comes down to the politics of it. In Arizona the elderly are generally high efficacy voters and he's recognizing he needs to get Arizona to win, because this is one of those states that could be considered a red state or blue state as the saying goes.

>>Barrett Marson: Howie, will you be there as a representative of the media or the senior citizens?

>>Bart Graves: Democrats -- Joe Lieberman will be here the same day as the president.

>> Michael Grant: Speaking of things, though, have that passed Congress, the healthy forest initiative cleared and is waiting the president --

>>Bart Graves: Awaiting the president's signature. It's closely -- resembles the plan he put together although there is more money according to Jake flake and others -- Jeff flake and others in the congressional delegation.

>>Barrett Marson: Jake flake is on vacation, please.

>>Bart Graves: Jeff flake, congressman Jeff flake, there is more money for fire prevention, I.E., tree thinning, rather than fire suppression which is kind of lopsided in the beginning. That should make western governors happier.

>> Michael Grant: All right. This week Arizona school readiness board released a nine-point plan to improve early education for students. Howie what are the key recommendations?

>>Howard Fischer: The big one is this idea of full-day kindergarten which has been something that's been floated now for decades. There seems to be a belief that if, in fact, kids are exposed to kindergarten for more than two, two-and-a-half hours a day, that by the time they reach first grade not only do they have certain reading skills and maybe even some basic math skills, but they also are more socialized in terms of being in a a classroom and being ready to learn. This is the whole issue, the school readiness board concluded to the extent kids are hitting first grade and that they really don't have the skills and don't even -- aren't even healthy enough, they have hadn't the shots, they haven't had their vision checked, their hearing checked, it holds back the whole rest of the class and everyone pays for it.

>> Michael Grant: There's a fairly hefty price tag associated with full-day kindergarten, if the legislature were to move on this generally thought it would move in phases to move to full-day kindergarten.

>>Howard Fischer: And this group is basically saying let's start with the areas of high poverty and we can phase it in there. You're talking over $100 million a year just for and that then there are other recommendations for more subsidized day-care for better regulation of day-care, for better grading of day-care so you can find out not only your day-care center is -- is not a fire trap but you can find out the quality of the education programs. All of this takes cash.

>>Barrett Marson: You know, it all takes cash, and it's something that not only does the state today not have a lot of, but I don't think there is a will to encumber the state with any more expenditures down the road once we get out of the economic doldrums and that will be the problem, convincing lawmakers that this will save money in the future and that we'll have better students in the future.

>> Michael Grant: State Board of Education hoping to save a couple of bucks by combining Stanford 9 and AIMS, at least at the lower grade levels.

>>Howard Fischer: Not only -- it's not only a question of money on that, it's a question of if you look at a classroom, you realize how many days are the kids stuck in testing, to the extent you have third graders, fifth graders and 8 graders taking the AIMS test and the Stanford 9, you're wasting a lot of time than could be spent in classrooms. We in the United States have one of the lowest number of days to go to school of any civilized country. We're talking less than 180 day as year and to the extent you can add three, four days I think that's what --

>>Barrett Marson: seemed like forever for me.

>>Howard Fischer: You're going to get out 9th grade sometime.

>> Michael Grant: I was going to say, have you actually cleared the bar yet, Barrett? I was surprised, Bart, they do two weeks of testing back to back. That's a marathon.

>>Bart Graves: Yes, it is and what Tom Horne told us a few weeks you a something the students are just like exhausted so there's no retention ability to Ping the ball again and go for it again and the teachers have a hard time getting their attention again. So this will be a much better deal.

>> Michael Grant: Massachusetts Supreme Court rules 4-3 that that state's ban on gay marriage is unconstitutional under Massachusetts constitution. There is a similar case headed for the Arizona Supreme Court. How do you think it's going to impact how these justices may decide that issue?

>>Bart Graves: That's a good one. The state Supreme Court pretty much -- there's a law on the books that says marriage is between a man and a woman in terms of the State of Arizona. This is an appeal filed by a gay male couple that wants to challenge this. My guess is that, and of course the state Attorney General will argue on behalf of the status quote, it will be upheld by the state.

>>Howard Fischer: Here's the problem that they've got. The Massachusetts ruling said that we look at the equal protection and the privacy provisions in the Massachusetts constitution and we find no compelling state interests to deny that based on the statute, and they directed the legislature to come up with something. Now, our Court of Appeals looked at our constitution, which has an equal protection privilege --

>> Michael Grant: It's a fairly explicit privacy provision --

>>Howard Fischer: Broader than in the United States constitution and what judge Timer said in that case was, privacy is you're free to do what you want in your home. It does not, however, require the government to sanction or recognize that in a formal relationship. That's going to be the hurdle they need to overcome with the state Supreme Court. And it's going to be very. Now, one of the interim steps and this is what happened in Vermont, is the court could say, we find that, providing no recognition to gay couples definitely violates equal protection. So you should come up with something. What they came up with in Vermont is domestic partnership and it may be the Massachusetts legislature does something similar. Whether that would fly here, I don't know.

>> Michael Grant: It was a close decision in Massachusetts, it was 4-3 and basically the three dissenting members in Massachusetts were articulating the same thing articulated by the Arizona Court of Appeals.

>>Barrett Marson: One interesting this is I saw some people who were involved in the lawsuit there say, you know, it's past the time for civil unions or domestic partnerships. We now need full marriage rights as everybody else.

>>Howard Fischer: But here's the problem they're going to have. Let's assume that the Massachusetts legislature comes back and says, we will grant gay marriage. Let's assume even the Arizona legislature does it. Some group will put the issue on the ballot and clearly close that constitutional loophole and then you'll have a constitutional provision that says, no gay marriage and you may even have now -- another push for a federal constitution provision. That will Trump everything and so to the extent that certain gay organizations may be better off pushing for domestic partnerships, it may not get as much backlash.

>> Michael Grant: Incidentally, the petition for review is being filed from the Court of Appeals decision to the Arizona Supreme Court. The Arizona Supreme Court doesn't have to take up the issue. They could simply decline?

>>Howard Fischer: Sure, they could side step the issue. It's hard to predict, as you know, what the court will decide they would like to weigh in. There may be a couple justices that figure, what with the Massachusetts Supreme Court ruling and the whole question of how far the government has come it may be time to take a look at it here.

>> Michael Grant: Panelists, we are out of time. Thank you very much. To share your views or contact us, please visit our website at www.kaet.asu.edu. Click on the word "Horizon" and that will lead you to transcripts, links and information on upcoming shows. Let's see what's on "Horizon" Monday.

>>Reporter: The controversial prescription drug plan is causing intense debate on capitol hill. Support and opposition crosses party lines. Presidential candidates continue to find ways to raise money. Some forego public financing. And a new exhibit highlights the work of the nature conservancy Monday night at 7:00 on Channel 8's "Horizon."

>>Michael Grant: Tuesday President Bush will be in town. We will tell you about that visit. Wednesday a debate on the clear bill which would allow police to arrest illegal immigrants. Thank you very much for joining us on this Friday. I hope you have a great weekend. I'm Michael Grant. Take care. Good night.

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