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November 10, 2003

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· Operation ICE Storm: the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement's task force to combat human smuggling across the border;
· Issues facing children's hospitals;
· Drug testing and the right to privacy
In-Studio Guests:
· Tom Derouchery, special agent in charge of Immigration and Customs Enforcement;
· Lawrence McAndrew, president/CEO, National Association of Children's Hospitals and Related Institutions;
· Captain Craig Petersen, Mesa fire department;
· Deborah Spinner, Mesa city attorney

>> Michael:
Tonight on "Horizon," operation "Ice Storm" will combat the rise of crime that has come with human smuggling. The CEO of the national association of children's hospitals talks about children's issues. And a right to privacy or public safety. A Mesa firefighter just says no to ran come drug testing. Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Those stories in a moment but first retired general and presidential candidate Wesley Clark is visiting with Valley veterans today at a town hall meeting at the Carl T. Hayden veterans affairs medical center. Clark answered questions from local veterans.

>>Man:
Why should we believe what you're saying about being a rely true Democrat?

>>Wesley Clark:
Well, let me try to answer --

>>Man: I don't care --

>>Wesley:
Sir, do you want me to answer the question?

>>Man:
Yes.

>>Wesley:
Let me answer the question. I understand your question exactly. Okay? First of all, there have been two speeches that have come out and then some CNN comments, but in almost every speech I will always acknowledge the men and women in the armed forces, including the Commander-in-Chief when they do something right. This government did something right when it attacked the Taliban...

>> Michael:
According to recent state polling, Clark is currently running second to Howard Dean Montgomery likely democratic voters in Arizona. Operation "Ice Storm" is a multi-agency initiative to fight human smuggling. The homeland security department's immigration and customs enforcement or ice, will lead that effort. Ice agents will combine immigration smuggling and financial investigative powers to attack organized human smuggling. The operation was announced at a news conference this morning.

>> Reporter:
With the South Mountains as backdrop, law enforcement officials and legislators launch an initiative to combat human smuggling. Authorities say the smuggling of people across the border has result in a 50% increase in homicides over last year and also significant increases in extortion, kidnapping and home invasions.

>>Harold Hurtt:
Back in October three people were kidnapped and held for six days. A 15,000 dollar ransom was demanded. They were demanded from the families of these individuals back in Mexico. At the time that they were rescued, the victims were bound head to toe with duct tape and were in very serious mental conditions. Had it not been for the cooperative efforts of the Phoenix Police Department and "ICE" the lives of these individuals could have been lost.

>> Reporter:
The initiative had been planned for some time so organizers of this event are stressing the point that the shootout on I-10 that coincidentally occurred during Mexico president Vicente fox's visit to Phoenix was not the emphasis of the news conference.

>>J.D. Hayworth:
With Phoenix facing a nearly 50% increase in homicides and nearly a 400% increase in home invasions, operation "Ice Storm" is a sobering, alarming wake-up call for the people of Arizona. It says to us that to a greater degree than at any other place in our nation our security in Arizona is being threatened by the Ruthless culture of crime and violence that surrounds illegal immigration. I have high confidence that this unprecedented assault on the vicious criminals who smuggle, murder, rape, enslave and exploit illegal aliens will be successful. However, it is crucial that the people of Arizona, and, indeed, the people across America, view operation "Ice Storm" as only one small part of the comprehensive approach we must take in order to reform our national immigration policies and laws.

>> Michael:
To tell us more about operation "Ice Storm," special agent in charge of immigration and customs enforcement, Tom Derouchey. I want to say you were on the show about three, four months ago and we were talking about the significant increase in violent crime associated with the smuggling operations and how human smuggling operations had become just like other smuggling operations, drugs and weapons and those kinds of things and I guess the episode on interstate 10 last week really drove home that point.

>>Tom Derouchey:
I think you're correct. The episode on interstate 10 last week was an exclamation point on the levels of violence that's currently facing the City of Phoenix and the metropolitan area as it relates to alien smuggling and the associated crime it brings with us.

>> Michael:
Now, what's "Ice Storm," who's involved and how duty agencies work together?

>>Tom:
"Ice Storm" is a concept of operation that was developed by "ICE" as well as input from our fellow law enforcementing as here in the Metro area. It's a concept that targets the organization structure of criminal alien smuggling entities, utilizing the vast authorities of "ICE" both from the former United States customs service as well as the former INS, coupling those authorities together under one agency to target the organization and dismantle them.

>> Michael:
How duty local authorities work into the process?

>>Tom:
I think that as we've indicated, you know, the interstate 10 incident, as well as the history over the past several years in the Metro area along with alien smuggling comes with it a significant amount of crime, homicides, rapes, assaults. Our local law enforcement, the police departments, generally are the first to respond, the first units on scene of a smuggling related incident and generally that's based on a call for assistance or a call for a suspicious activity occurring at a location which is a residence or a neighbor may have reported the police department.

>> Michael:
Somebody's been shot or there's gunfire or whatever would trigger a police call?

>>Tom:
Exactly. Suspicious activity. So their involvement and of course, their involvement is they have the authority over the underlying -- the overlying offenses, the assaults, the rapes, the homicides, obviously and then we are targeting the underlying offense, which is the alien smuggling itself.

>> Michael:
Obviously at its finest hour, the prime objective to, I guess, follow that lead back to whatever coyote smuggling organization is really -- is really involved in that final episode that has triggered the call to the police?

>>Tom:
Absolutely. Absolutely. We know that -- when we respond to these types of calls all day long, all year long, but until we work those cases back to the organizational structure, we won't be able to dismantle those organizations and we won't be able to deter illegal immigration. It's the organizations themselves which is the mechanism which allows individuals as well as contraband to be smuggled into the United States.

>> Michael:
How does that make this different than what we've been doing previously? I mean, what's different about "Ice Storm"?

>>Tom:
I think in the past the former INS certainly has done a number of operations here in the Phoenix area, and generally those were a massive influx of resources that targeted illegal aliens versus the organization structures themselves. "Ice Storm" now with the components that it contains within it, both the expertise and authorities of customs law, immigration law, as well as our other partners, federal air marshals, federal protective service, a robust intelligence division, combining all of those authorities under one enforcement entity within "ICE" and coupling with that our law enforcement partners we will be able to target these organizations much better.

>>Michael:
Okay, Tom, give me an example -- let me take that episode and say that you follow that string that from assault call here in Phoenix back to coyote smuggling group X south of the border. How does coyote smuggling group X get targeted then as the entity that ultimately led to that criminal activity that was reported to Phoenix police?

>>Tom:
Well, it's a variety of investigative techniques we utilize. Number one, and I think you bring up an important aspect of "Ice Storm," and that is working with our foreign government law enforcement agencies, which is what we will be doing through this process, and that is targeting these organizations in the host countries where generally these -- the immigration, the smuggling process begins. Over the past several months wave' enjoyed very good working relationship with law enforcement agencies in Mexico, targeting alien smuggling organizations and they've been able to have a significant impact on these organizations in Mexico. We want to stop it before it gets to the United States and we do that by cooperating with our law enforcement counterparts in foreign countries.

>> Michael:
Do we get good cooperation down there?

>>Tom:
Absolutely. Absolutely. We've had tremendous successes with the Mexican law enforcement agencies targeting alien smuggling organizations. They experience the same problems that we experience here in the United States with illegal aliens coming into Mexico, transitting through Mexico and into the United States. So the smuggling organizations are not just smuggling citizens and nationals of Mexico, but they're smuggling aliens from all walks of life and almost every country.

>> Michael:
Now, there's a monetary aspect to this, or an attempt as well to target the monetary assets of the smuggling organizations?

>>Tom:
Yes, we'll be targeting the -- just like a narcotics organize stations, you go after the financial proceeds of the smuggling organizations, you take those proceeds away and they're unable to function and we believe that we'll have a significant impact on the organizations themselves by targeting their money proceeds.

>> Michael:
Seize assets, seize bank accounts, proceeds, whatever you can lay your hands on?

>>Tom:
Houses, cars, money, cash. Whatever assets we can determine were derived from the criminal organization.

>> Michael:
Okay. Tom Derouchey, thank you very much for being here. Good luck with the program.

>>Michael:
Children's hospitals have a special place in the community because all of their equipment, technology and expertise are devoted to children. They are, in a sense, centers of research and information regarding children. Producer Larry Lemmons spoke with Lawrence McAndrew, the president/CEO of the national association of children's hospitals and related institutions.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Mr. McAndrews when you say a children's hospital, I think most people assume it's a hospital for children, but is there a significant difference between what it's called a children's hospital and a regular hospital?

>>Lawrence McAndrews:
Yes, children's hospitals are organizes and designed just for children so they can do things adult hospitals cannot because you can devote the space and the environment, the artwork just for children. Of course, the personnel within the organization just work with children on a day-to-day basis and so they are familiar with the needs of children. When you have the subspecialists and the physicians that just care for children, the knowledge that they have about the development of children and the needs of children, and it's all organized for children, so the children get a special care that they wouldn't otherwise get in another facility, not that it wouldn't be a quality experience, but it is one that is organized dedicated just for children.

>>Larry:
Is Phoenix Children's Hospital the only children's hospital in Phoenix?

>>Lawrence:
St. Joseph's Hospital has a pediatric program and we have within our organization hospitals that are both free standing, separately incorporated and we have hospitals within hospitals that have organized themselves in order to provide a more robust set of pediatric services.

>> Larry:
Are they generally nonprofit?

>> Lawrence:
Almost all children's hospitals in the country are not for profit. There are one or two exceptions.

>> Larry:
So I assume then one of the major problems is funding; is that correct?

>>Lawrence:
Reimbursement is always the number one issue if you would speak to the leadership of children's hospitals in terms of the challenges they confront. Staffing would be a second issue. And capacity, oddly enough. As we get better and keeping more and more kids out of the hospital, those kids that are admitted into the hospital tend to be sicker and require more in the way of services and since the children are also sicker, it's more difficult for non-children's hospitals to take care of those children. So what is happening across country is that children's hospitals are getting a larger share of those children that are admitted into the hospital because of their specialized services that they're able to provide.

>> Larry:
Does Medicare -- or Medicaid, I'm sorry, fit into the equation as well?

>>
Lawrence: That's a perfect segue. A lot of people don't appreciate the differences between Medicare and Medicaid. Medicaid is a federal state program and 25% of the nation' children are covered through Medicaid. One out of four depend on Medicaid for funding, and children's hospitals derive almost 40% of their income from the Medicaid program. We are concerned, of course, about the states that are having so much in the way of budget deficits and the difficulty of funding programs and it's a continuous concern within children's hospitals.

>> Larry:
What's your folkness terms of raising money?

>>Lawrence:
Philanthropy is important to children's hospitals and often philanthropy funds the building, as I think you have some examples here in this state where the children's hospitals have gone through a major building program and you've had wonderful support for that philanthropically. Generally speaking the ongoing operations of the hospital have to depend on the fees that are derived from the services that are offered and that's where the reimbursement rate from the Medicaid program is so important and we are always working to see reimbursement rates improved. Children's hospitals end up taking care of the sickest of the sick, and so the reimbursement is an incredibly important piece of being able to do.

>> Larry:
What's the value of having a children's hospital near you?

>>Lawrence:
Well, as we've tried to tease out in this conversation, children's hospitals are able to provide an array of services and a degree of expertise you wouldn't get in another facility.

>> Larry:
Like you said, I think some of the statistics he were we were looking at provided 50% of the sub specialists, 30% of pediatricians. Is that true? Is that accurate?

>>Lawrence:
Clinical care is certainly the first thing would that come to your mind when you think about a children's hospital, but children's hospitals also are significant educators of physicians, pediatricians and nursing and physical therapists, and occupational therapists while children's hospitals represent 3% of the hospitals in the country, they account for 30% of the pediatricians that are trained in the country, 50% of the pediatric, emergency room physicians, and virtually 80 to 90 to 100% of some of the supersubspecialists. But it also goes well beyond physicians in terms of the educational programs. It's all of the people that are trained to take care of pediatric nurses, physical therapists, occupational therapists. Much of the training in this country takes place within children's hospitals for these pediatric specialists. So that's an important role of the children's hospital, and research is another important role in which children's hospitals organize collaboratively to provide the best in research for kids in terms of the improvements that are being offered in the way of medical science.

>> Larry:
Do they also serve as advocates?

>>Lawrence:
And advocacy is a key role as well. Since children do not vote, advocacy, of course, is something that we continue to represent in a way to the public the needs of children and children's hospitals.

>> Larry:
If people were so inclined in their community to support children's hospitals, what would be the best way to do it?

>>Lawrence:
Well, to get involved, to be knowledgeable, generally there's a way in which you can volunteer at the children's hospital and it's always good to draw on one's own strengths and skills and then match those to the needs of the kids in their community and to the hospitals' programs. So just getting involved and knowledgeable certainly, talking with their political leadership about the needs of children and children's hospitals and making sure that the leadership politically understands those needs is another key way in terms of advocacy, working with their elected public officials to make sure that the reimbursement rates and the coverage for children is adequate. So I think those are some of the key ways that you could get involved.

>> Larry:
Thank you very much, Mr. McAndrews.

>> Michael:
Is random drug testing a matter of public safety or an infringement on our right of privacy? That is the question currently being considered by the Arizona Supreme Court. The case involves a 27 year veteran of the Mesa fire department with a spotless record who doesn't want to submit to a random drug test. Joining me to talk about that, captain Craig Petersen of the Mesa fire department and also the Mesa city attorney Deborah Spinner. Good to see both of you. I think we need to lay a little groundwork for this. So, Craig, let's start this way. As I understand it, the City of Mesa had episodic testing, but a couple years ago or so they decided to develop a random drug test. Take us from there.

>>Craig Peterson:
Basically the City of Mesa already had in place a drug testing policy which included before hire, upon accident or after an accident occurred, there's -- there was a test. Also if there was suspicion, if you noticed suspicion on a person, then you could test. But there wasn't a random policy in place.

>> Michael:
So, for example f they were acting erratically or --

>>Craig:
Correct. Some type of demeanor or they're acting or their character, whatever, you could -- reasonable suspicion say that there might be under the influence of alcohol or drugs, and then you could have them tested. But there was no random element. And about, oh, five years ago or so the fire department actually started the involvement by seeking a random policy, and when that was a new thing for the city, it wasn't being done in the fire department and so the fire department took upon themselves to do that through administration, and they developed a policy, and when it came -- during the development of that policy, I noticed them and talked to them about the other possibilities of tests besides using drug testing. I suggested performance-based testing because there's companies in California that actually have a computer program where they use reaction times, neural sense retype reactions through a computer based program where they could determine a person's Baseline, and then each day as an employee came into work they would do this performance test, and then they could determine if a person was defective someway, either drug or -- impaired -- it could be -- yeah, either drug or alcohol. It could be from lack of sleep or insomnia, or it could be, you know, social problems or whatever problem.

>> Michael:
Debbie, was there anything in particular that pulled the City of Mesa's attention to we need an additional increment a random testing in addition to the episodic testing we were doing or was it Jebly re-evaluation of the policy?

>>Deborah Spinner:
It was a re-evaluation of the policy and it was just an acknowledgment of two things, first, the harmful effects drugs have had on society in general and second the important role that firefighters play in society. They are truly the first line responders to a crisis or an emergency, whether it's a burning building, whether someone -- where someone is trapped inside or an automobile accident where somebody needs immediate medical attention, the firefighters are usually the first people there to respond to that situation, and it's very important not only for the safety of the firefighters but also the general public that the city make sure that these firefighters are not under the influence of drugs or alcohol while performing their duties. That's what prompted the policy.

>> Michael:
Okay. But there wasn't any episode that was the culminating event or a driving force behind the re-evaluation?

>>Deborah:
No, we don't believe there was a drug problem in the Mesa fire department at this time. This is a proactive step Mesa was trying to take to ensure the safety of the firefighters and the public.

>> Michael:
Now, is the -- this is recently adopted policy -- I guess a couple years ago or so, does it apply only to public safety personnel like fire and police or are other City of Mesa employees involved in it?

>>Deborah:
It goes to the safety sensitive positions, it includes police, fire, it also includes lifeguards at the community pools, some individuals who work for the utility department and deal with the gas lines. So just the safety sensitive positions in the city.

>> Michael:
Okay. Craig, give me your best shot here. You do have a spotless record. You've been on the department for a long time. I don't think you fear the results of the test. You can correct me if I'm wrong. So you are objecting on moral and legal grounds.

>>Craig:
Exactly. You know, the constitution of the State of Arizona guarantees us the right to privacy not to be invaded in our homes without due process -- or without authority of law, which includes due process. In other words, in order for government to come into our lives, into our personal homes or into our bodies to collect something or to get something, they have to show probable cause. They have to get a warrant from a judge and swear out an affidavit stating what they're expecting to find and what they're looking for. So the constitution is a restriction upon government and they can't usurp or trespass against the people unless they have due process, and what my basic challenge is is that to come into me randomly without suspicion, without probable cause, that they are usurping or trespassing upon my rights and doing it without the due process.

>> Michael:
And, Craig, I think you also maintain that the Arizona constitution, which gives some slightly different and higher rights on privacy, actually gives an Arizona citizen in relation to the standard you just articulated more protection, let's say, the fourthth amendment of the United States constitution?

>>Craig:
Exactly. It's broader -- we have more protection with the Arizona constitution, but also remember that Arizona came in as a state with equal footing as the 13 original states and the 13 original states were in existence before the federal constitution. So our rights derive not from constitutions but they derive from God. He gave us our rights and we as people came together and formed governments to protect those rights. So our constitution is basically a stricture on government. It's a bound on government to maintain our rights, and they can't encroach upon our rights, and basically throughout time government is the one that usually encroaches the first.

>> Michael:
Sometime the tricky part is writing it down, but that's another subject for this show. Debbie, respond to that. Why should a warrantless, no probable cause search as involved in this kind of a policy be acceptable under the Arizona constitution or for that matter the federal constitution?

>>Deborah:
The courts, both the federal courts and the state courts, have said if you're looking outside the criminal arena, you do not need a warrant in order to search if the interests of the government outweighs the interests of the individual involved. In this particular case, it's Mesa's position that the public safety issues involved, both for the firefighters and for the public, outweigh the individual privacy interests of the firefighters, and that is what entitles us to do the random drug testing.

>> Michael:
Again, tied to the safety aspects we were talking about a couple minutes you aking?

>>Deborah:
Yes, again, our policy only addresses safety sensitive positions in the city.

>> Michael:
But those safety sensitive positions, they get a different level of constitutional protection than other people whose job functions do not tie so directly to public safety?

>>Deborah:
Well, I guess you would look at the compelling interests, or the state interests would be great inner this case because we're dealing with public safety. Also the expectation of privacy which the court looks at f you're dealing with firefighters, the courts have consistently said they have a lower expectation of privacy. So when you're balancing the two, we believe that the city's interests outweighs the individual interests here.

>> Michael:
Deborah Spinner, thank you very much for joining us. Captain Craig Petersen, thanks. Here's what's coming up tomorrow night on "Horizon."

>> Reporter:
The conflict in Iraq is an important reminder the role members of our military play. "Horizon" looks at the issues related to our military and the millions of veterans who served our country. Plus, the story of a local marine who paid the ultimate sacrifice in duty to his country. Tuesday at 7:00 on "Horizon."

>> Michael:
Thanks very much for joining us on a Monday. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

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