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Transcripts

December 17, 2003

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· Arizona Senator John McCain
· Contemporary Cuban art exhibit at Arizona State University
In-Studio Guests:
· Arizona Senator John McCain

>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," U.S. Senator John McCain joins us to talk about Saddam Hussein, immigration, presidential politics and other issues.

>>> Plus, a significant collection of contemporary Cuban art is on exhibit right here at ASU. We'll take a look.

>>> Good evening, I'm Michael Grant.

>>> The capture of Saddam Hussein is a victory for President Bush, British Prime Minister Tony Blair and the Allied military coalition that liberated Iraq, but questions are now generating about how Saddam will be tried, the continuing violence there, as well as what political consequences will play out. Here in Arizona, 400 National Guard troops had just been deployed to Iraq. What is the best course of action now that Saddam is in custody? United State's Senator John McCain joins us now to talk about that and other issues. Senator, it's good to see you.

>> Senator McCain:
Thank you, Mike. It's nice to be back.

>> Michael Grant:
Happy holidays.

>> Senator McCain:
Dare I mention to our viewers that the first time I was on this program is 21 years ago.

>> Michael Grant:
And you haven't aged a bit.

>> Michael Grant:
You are going to date both of us.

>>> Are you surprised by the circumstances of Saddam's capture?

>> Senator McCain:
I'm overjoyed. It was a matter of time in his case. I don't think that's necessarily true with Osama bin Laden, but it seemed to me with $30 million out there reward, and generally in an urban setting, that he would probably be captured sooner or later, but I was certainly getting pessimistic.

>> Michael Grant:
I guess I was referring to the fact that I expected a kind of blazing gun battle that you had with his two sons, here you've got a guy laying in a hole with a pistol, offers to negotiate and I thought the special forces comments was pretty good, "greetings from President Bush." I was surprise bide that kind of capture.

>> Senator McCain:
I was, too. I thought he would fight it out. He had a pistol on him. It shows he is a coward. A lot of these guys are cowards who send other people out to die. That's what he is. I'm glad it happened this way because it exposed him for really the low life that he is. All over the Arab world they saw pictures of this guy who looked like somebody who was on a great.

>> Michael Grant:
Interestingly, enough, as least based on what I read in the past three or four days. It looked like it was good on-the-ground intelligence gumshoe work that basically finally got us to that point, which in a way reinforces a point that has been made by a whole lot of people, I think, including yourself, that all of this modern technology that we have got and satellites are great, but there are certain points where there is no replacement for on-the-ground human being kind of intelligence?

>> Senator McCain:
That's exactly right. That's what we need more of. We need more linguists and better penetration of some of these areas, particularly the Sunni tribe. It was the old-fashioned style intelligence gathering, interrogating people that knew things and we're proud of our military. We're so proud of those young people. It was a great job.

>> Michael Grant:
You have suggested both an Iraqi trial and an international trial for him. Why both?

>> Senator McCain:
Because I think he's guilty of both. I think he's guilty of crimes against the Iraqi people, and I think he's guilty of crimes against humanity pep used weapons of mass destruction against the Iranians in their war. He invaded Kuwait and slaughtered I don't know how many innocent Kuwaiti citizens as well as wrecking their country. It would be well for the Arab world and the Iraqis to see a chronicle of his terrible behavior over 30 years and I think it would do the Europeans some good to see a war crimes tribunal at the Hague or Geneva. Look, I don't want to get into all of the details, what the problem with the Hague is there is no death penalty, and most of us believe he deserves the death penalty, that's I didn't think it might be good to have two trials.

>> Michael Grant:
Any reason why you couldn't roll both of those functions into an Iraqi trial?

>> Senator McCain:
International criminal proceedings at a prestigious place has a certain atmosphere about it and a certain credibility about it.

>> Michael Grant:
Maybe it won't otherwise have?

>> Senator McCain:
You try him in Iraq, there will always be those people who say, see, it's United States puppets, because we haven't got an elected government in Iraq yet but --

>> Michael Grant:
That's an interesting point.

>> Senator McCain:
So I'm just glad we got him. In the short term, I don't think it makes much difference in the level of attacks. In the long run, though, it's a tremendous psychological positive impact because since 1991, the Iraqi people were told by us that he would be gone, and he wasn't. And he killed tens of thousands more. And the fear of him returning to power, as irrational as that might seem to you and me was a real and palpable atmosphere in Iraq.

>> Michael Grant:
Why were you in Guantanamo last week?

>> Senator McCain:
I wanted to go down and see the conditions which by the way are adequate, but I also wanted to try to find out why some of these people have been held for as long as two years and not been released or brought to trial.

>> Michael Grant:
Did you find any answers?

>> Senator McCain:
Yeah, I'm sorry to tell you that as far as the decision-making is concerned, it's gridlocked by the bureaucracy. Everybody has a veto over either bringing them to trial or releasing them, and so they do neither. I think that some of the worst people in the world that have ever existed on the face of this earth are held in Guantanamo and should be tried and in my view, eligible for the death penalty. There were others who were swept up and sent over and they deserve to be released, and we need to -- we cannot as a champion of human rights, and keep people in prison indefinitely. Many of them have already been there for two years, without some kind of adjudication in their case.

>> Michael Grant:
Is this military gridlock? In other words, if they were in civilian control, would the same thing be happening?

>> Senator McCain:
I don't know. But I know it's the Pentagon. The secretary, all of these undersecretaries and secretaries and CIA and everybody has a veto. In other words we want to --

>> Michael Grant:
You want to ask one more question and you can't do it now?

>> Senator McCain:
Nobody wants to make a mistake of releasing one of these guys and finding out later on that you had the wrong impression and he was really a bad guy. But, you just can't do it, Michael. And you've got to even if you make a mistake. Some of these guys, there is ample evidence that they are, really bad people.

>> Michael Grant:
Give me your reaction to Howard Dean's comment that the U.S. is not a safer place given Saddam's capture?

>> Senator McCain:
I don't understand it. It's beyond my ability to comprehend. The guy tried to acquire weapons of mass destruction. He did acquire them. He used them on his own people. He used them on other people. If he were in power today, whether he had weapons of mass destruction or not at the time of the invasion, if you are in power today unfettered, he would be trying to get weapons of mass destruction, but the other thing is, Michael, we are citizens of the United States, and we are citizens of the world. If there is a brutal dictator that's killing human beings for no -- I went to a mass grave, 3,000 bodies in the mass grave. They would tie two people together shoot one in the head and throw them both in the grave and save a bullet. So, we are citizens of the United States and the world. It's not good for the world and it's not good for us to have brutal dictators, and there are others, around, killing and murdering and wounding and have his sons going around raping and doing all kinds of things, the world is better off. The United States is a better off place. Do you see my point?

>> Michael Grant:
Sure.

>> Senator McCain:
To think somehow that this guy operated in some little isolated vacuum, which would have no effect on us and the rest of the world, in my view, is ignoring the 21st century.

>> Michael Grant:
Four years ago about this time you were deep in the snow in New Hampshire, so you've got, I think, a pretty up close and personal look at that process. Is that all over but the shouting for Howard Dean for that matter, is the entire nomination all over but the shouting for Howard Dean?

>> Senator McCain:
You know, I don't pretend to know a lot about the Democratic party mechanisms and how they work, but I do know this about New Hampshire. There are a whole lot of people that are independent and one of the things that are characteristic is they hold their vote. Morris Udall said the other guy in New Hampshire when Mo was running 1976, what do you think about Mo Udall for president and he said I don't know, I only met him twice. And so there is a large block of independent voters that I am convinced have not fully made up their minds. Having said that, Gore's endorse men, Bruce Babbitt just endorsed him. You're seeing this coalescing of the party elders, but I think we'll know in a couple of weeks whether Dean is adversely impacted by the capture of Saddam Hussein.

>> Michael Grant:
I think my favorite Mo Udall in New Hampshire story was the one where he walked into the barber shop and he said I'm Mo Udall I'm running for president and he said I know we were laughing about that this morning.

>> Senator McCain:
One of my other favorites he said, presidential ambition is a disease that can only be cured by embalming fluid.

>> Michael Grant:
Yeah, right.

>> Senator McCain:
If any of our viewers ever want a few laughs and a few chuckles, pick up his book called "too funny to be president." He was the loveliest of men.

>> Michael Grant:
Do you sign on to, I think, the conventional wisdom held by many in the Republican party, that Dean is the best candidate for George Bush to run against?

>> Senator McCain:
At this early stage, I think so. I just think that his positions that he's taken are -- have energized the left Democratic base and not the wide middle that decides elections. I keep being astonished to read polls at 45% of registered Democrats still don't -- can't identify a single candidate. But, give the guy credit, give him credit. He's energized the Internet. He's raised a lot of money on it. He has energized the base. He has volunteers. Look, you've got to give the guy credit, but how does he stand up in a general election against George Bush with a strong economy and Saddam Hussein captured? All I can say is, if he is the nominee, he's damn lucky the election isn't tomorrow.

>> Michael Grant:
McCain-Feingold, I take it you are pleased about that result out of the U.S. Supreme Court?

>> Senator McCain:
Yes, and the most interesting thing about that decision -- several interesting things, one, Sandra Day O'Connor, the swing vote. The Supreme Court basically said, yes, money has a corrupting influence in politics, yes, money will always -- it's like water and will always find an outlet, so you, congress, you can make laws to try to control the corrupting influence of money. That's why they basically endorsed the entire McCain-Feingold law, and I want to tell you that the most effective aspect of our case before the Supreme Court was the depositions from former senators, Fred Thompson, Paul Simon who just passed away, Warren Redman, a number of others who all in their depositions said, yes, money does corrupt us or give us the appearance of corruption. Now, when respected former senators who worked there for years say that, and it's hard to argue that that's not true.

>> Michael Grant:
But, what about the comment that, well, all McCain-Feingold does, though, is drive the soft money to a new and separate set of boxes, mostly these 527 corporations?

>> Senator McCain:
Most of the people that are saying that are those that oppose campaign finance reform. One, it's against the law for a congressman or senator to pick up the phone and call a trial lawyer, union leader or corporate executive and say give me a check for a million dollars and by the way your legislation is pending. That's against the law. Second point, the 527s, still, if Mr. Sauros (phonetic) wants to give $20 million, if he wants to run a broadcast ad attacking a candidate 30 or 60 days before the general, it has to be done with hard money. If he wants to spend $10 million to register voters, God bless him, go right ahead.

>> Michael Grant:
Senator, here's the other concern, though. If congress can say, okay, no speech before the election, why can't congress say, no speech ever?

>> Senator McCain:
Because what we're saying is, this is the greatest thing, that continues to puzzle me. I can only raise my money in $2000 chunks. If you wanted to support my candidacy, you could give me $2000 for the primary and $2000 for the general. I can spend that money on anything I want, okay? Including broadcast advertising.

>> Michael Grant:
Sure.

>> Senator McCain:
If you want to give a million dollars to a 527, only $2,000, actually $5,000 which is a PAC contribution, can be used for broadcast advertising. In other words, you can only spend the same amount of money for broadcast ad that I can. You are not prohibited from it, it's only a certain amount of money. Quick story. When I ran for president, Wiley brothers, billionaires from Texas, spent a number of millions of dollars on ads attacking me, calling themselves Republicans for a clean environment, attacking me because of my environmental record. Now, they were able to spend several million dollars attacking me, just two guys, two brothers, but I could only respond with a limited amount of money because my contributions were limited to $1,000 at that time. Now, if the Wiley brothers had wanted to get everybody in their family to give a thousand dollars, fine, but that wasn't what it was. Was it fair for them to spend millions against me and me only be able to spend a thousand? What we've said is, if you are in the race, then you have the same restraints on your contributions and how you use them as the candidate does.

>> Michael Grant:|
Senator, I understand that. What I'm trying to do is take it out of the context of, let's say electioneering, more to the basic principal, which is if the congress can forbid speech, no matter how unfair --

>> Senator McCain:
We're not forbidding.

>> Michael Grant:
How slippery does that slope get?

>> Senator McCain:
We're not forbidding. We're saying if you are in a campaign, you are subject to the same contribution limitations that the candidates are. In other words, how many times in the last elections did you see -- well, let me just give you an alleged example. Thank congressman so and so for his support of Medicare prescription drug --

>> Michael Grant:
For --

>> Senator McCain:
Paid for by the united seniors of America. Do you know who has paid for lock, stock and barrel, the pharmaceutical drug companies. And they are free to do that. But if you get 30 days before the primary and I'm in a primary and you want to run an ad saying call John McCain and tell him to stop destroying western civilization as we know it, then you can only do it with the hard money contributions, not the soft money contributions. Now, if you want to spend all of the quote, soft millions, the millions and billions to get out the vote, organize voters et cetera, that's fine. If you are in a campaign, you are in a campaign.

>> Michael Grant:
Speaking of Medicare, you voted against it. Let me give you a couple of questions. The first question that I've -- or point that I've heard made on the side of the Medicare legislation is yeah, it's expensive, but it gives us some substantial reforms, and it's the only way we're going to get those substantial reforms and we need those substantial reforms to the program, those will be beneficial in the future, we've got to do it?

>> Senator McCain:
Well, first of all, there are no significant reforms, and if there are reforms, they don't kick in until the year 2010. Let me show you some provision that take effect immediately. Medicare cannot negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies to get lower prices for prescription drugs. It's prohibited. The Veterans Administration can negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies to get lower price drugs for our veterans, so more of our veterans can have more drugs. Medicaid states can negotiate with drug companies, but guess what, the pharmaceutical companies have a prohibition from the Medicare system going to whatever large pharmaceutical company there is and say we'll by a million of whatever you've got but you've got to lower the price and they are prohibited from doing that. You know what else they are prohibited from? Any reimportation of Canada. You can reimport anything from Canada you want, dynamite, liquids, alcohol, whatever it is, the only thing you can't reimport from Canada is a prescription drug. Thirdly, we passed a bill, and I had some role in it, to make generic drugs more available at a more rapid fashion and removal out of the impediments from generic drugs get together market, why? Because they are cheaper. They weakened those laws that we passed dramatically. The pharmaceutical companies and the hospitals and the doctors, they all got together and backed this thing, and the AARP. And the AARP is going to pay the same price they paid in the late 1980s when they supported the catastrophic--

>> Michael Grant:
You don't see any value to the privatization aspects. Those aspects are only done in certain places and then suppose that they

>> Senator McCain:
-- you know, it's an incentive for people to remain in private insurance companies, right? But if it's more expensive, what are the people in Phoenix going to do? They are going to move to Tucson where they don't have to do that. I guess finally, what we should have done was say the following, there are about 4 million senior citizens today that are going to bed tonight and they have to make a choice between eating and having prescription drugs. That's 150% of the poverty line. Here's a card for you sir and ma'am, take it to your drug store and get whatever you want. And then reform the medicare system. What we've done is lay a $7 trillion unfunded mandate on future generations of Americans. Michael, you won't see the same benefit as others due.

>> Michael Grant:
Senator John McCain, thank you for joining us. Have a good holiday season.

>> Senator McCain:
It's nice to be back with you. Have a happy holiday season.

>> Michael Grant:
Art often shows political and social struggle of its time. The Cuban art exhibit at the ASU art museum is no different. Here's a preview of one of the most notable collections of contemporary Cuban art outside of Cuba.

>> Reporter:
A child teaching children a new way to see. At the center of the Cuban art exhibit at ASU art museum, pieces reflect social and political struggle, yet maintain a stream of humor.

>> Marilyn Zeitlin:
And the work, first of all is technically amazing. Second, it's about something very, very interesting, larger than just Cuba itself. It's about survival. Survival as a human being, and I don't mean just physically, I mean psychologically, and also survival as an artist.

>> Reporter:
Central to the exhibit is the newest piece depicting the struggle over Elian Gonzalez.

>> Marilyn Zeitlin:
It's done on three monitors. One is red and that's the Cuban point of view, and the Cuban media. One is blue, which is the American media, and at the center an attempt to just show the child's point of view in white. And red, white and blue is the American flag, blue, red and white is the Cuban flag. It's one of these things that keep shifting back and forth. And all of the paranoia, all of the emotion, all of the really hysteria, both in Miami and Havana, that was fomented by this incident comes through on this tape. And then, you know, you just see this little kid, and at one point he goes like this with his ears, and he's just a little boy, and there is something, I think that all of us identify with.

>> Reporter:
The current of human critique of human reality flows through every piece.

>> Marilyn Zeitlin:
The piece that is most politically sensitive in this exhibition is the piece about Che Lavara. It's set like a table. The blanket serves as a table place, and on it is a stack of soup bowls that has the image of his face after he had been killed.

>> Reporter:
The death of an icon symbolizes the thirst for a very different life.

>> Marilyn Zeitlin:
What the artist intends, I believe, by using that image at the bottom of the soup bowl, is in a sense, he nourishes us, but we devour him.

>> Reporter:
Cuban art is an improvisation of a current moment in time, a thought pervasive in each piece.

>> Marilyn Zeitlin:
Cuban artists use whatever they can find to make their work. They live in a place where not only is there a shortage of food and means of transportation, but you can imagine how hard it is to get art materials. So, they improvise. Now, some of that is -- you bring something to a work of art using a found object, something about the reality, crosses into the esthetic object in a way that gives a kind of immediacy to the object. They know how to make that happen. But they are also survivors. They are trying to figure out ways to make their work, so you don't have paper? You use an emergency blanket. You don't have canvas? You use a suitcase.

>> Marilyn Zeitlin:
And the piece by a Bell Barroso (phonetic), the Mango Tech is about the shortage and improvisation. Inventing a new way to cope with first world ideas in a third world economy. So he's made a wooden computer.

>> Reporter:
In addition to the art itself, a piece by Rene Francisco shows that Cuba's third world economy does have something to offer.

>> Marilyn Zeitlin:
It's a painting that depicts an auction in New York at Christie's or Sotheby's and it shows the auctioneer, usually they have no head because they are not individuals in his -- from his perspective, they are just kind of a mechanism for selling works of art. The slides project images not of works of art, but of the great monuments of Cuban architecture and culture. So what the piece is about is the selling of Cuba.

>> Reporter:
Much of the work in the selection reflects a special period of time.

>> Marilyn Zeitlin:
Many people at that time left Cuba. This was -- it came to a point of crisis in 1994 in the so-called crisis of the balceros. And they are people who left Cuba on anything that floats, and this piece is a reference to the balceros and the crisis of the balceros. It consists of a homemade kayak floating on a sea of beer bottles. We associate a kayak with sports and fun and kind of macho rushing, you know, going over the rapids, but here it was a -- it represents a desperate attempt to leave the island. And the beer bottles are another form of escape, a kind of oblivion of a form of escape. The piece is a very quiet piece, and a real homage to the balceros. And so, again, there is this critique of the Cuban reality as there is in so many of these, but it's done in this oblique way.

>> Reporter:
The exhibit underscores the fact that for a tiny island, Cuba figures largely in our mental geography.

>> Michael Grant:
The Cuban art exhibit will be at the ASU art museum until March 6th. Entrance is free. Thanks for joining us this evening. Have a great one, good night.

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