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August 15, 2003

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
· The Journalists' Roundtable
In-Studio Guests:
Howie Fischer, "Capitol Media Services;"
Mary Jo Pitzl, "The Arizona Republic;"
Barrett Marson, "The Arizona Daily Star"

>> Michael: It's Friday, August 15th, 2003. In the headlines this week, gasoline prices in Arizona have been soaring because of a cracked supply pipeline.

>>> Michael: Early voting is underway in the City of Phoenix as voters select a new mayor and decide some council races.

>>> Michael: And President Bush in Arizona this week touring the site of the Aspen fire.

>>> Michael: Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. This is the Journalists' Roundtable. Joining me to talk about these and other stories are Howie Fischer from "Capitol Media Services"; Mary Jo Pitzl from "The Arizona Republic"; and Barrett Marson from "The Arizona Daily Star."

>>> Michael: Gasoline prices are on the rise this week, supplies running low following the shutdown of a pipeline to the Phoenix area. Howie, why was the pipeline shut down?

>> Howard: Prices started slipping after the Iraq war and they had to do something to boost the prices. I mean, you could buy gas under $1.50, everyone said you couldn't possibly do that. The official reason, if you don't believe the conspiracy theory of mine, is there was a leak that developed in the major pipeline north of Tucson. Phoenix gets its gas from the west coast through a very large pipeline, and it comes through Tucson from Texas and the gulf coast. There was a leak that developed. They had taken the pipeline out of service, thought they had patched it, and then started sending fuel through it at a lower rate. Then they realized, if we've got this crack, this is a pipeline that goes back about 47 years, we may need to inspect it for other cracks. They took the whole pipeline out of service. They'll be testing it over the next 7 to 14 days in segments. They are going to pressurize it, see if it leaks, and if everything goes well, hopefully gas will flow again in about two weeks.

>> Michael: What they are really looking for at this point in time is whether or not this is systemic in a pipeline that's old as opposed to being an isolated burst.

>> Howard: That's the issue. I mean, gasoline itself is corrosive in the first place, and you've got, you know, you're not just looking for the big cracks which would be easy to spot, but you are looking for the microscopic cracks that become the issues that can develop later. You're talking a buried pipeline. You don't want to wait until you have a leak. What a small quantity of gasoline can do to ground water supply, particularly near Tucson, which is so dependent on ground water is really scary. You don't want to take a chance on this.

>> Michael: Well, I certainly understand the supply problem, if you take down the pipeline, but why was it hitting the mostly the premium brands of gas?

>> Barrett: Well, that is what spilled to begin with, about 12,000 or so, maybe even more, 12,000 gallons of premium gas is what spilled. So I think that's mostly what's flowing through that pipeline and so that is -- that tap has been closed. You've got a lot of gas stations and premium is either already more expensive than usual or even out.

>> Michael: The Governor, the attorney general, the Corporation Commission, weigh in in a press conference, but not a lot?

>> Barrett: Well, no, I mean, they were very decisive. They took action. They said gas prices are rising, it's bad, bad, bad, and we're going to get to the bottom of it, and they are we're going to sit there and think about it for a while. There is not much that they can do. There is not much they can do. You know, between federal issues and the fact that you have to have high standards proving some kind of collusion, which they haven't found any evidence of, much less sniffed it. It's very difficult for any of them to do anything.

>> Howard: Okay, but look, Barrett and I both went to this press conference. They were there to look very serious for the TV cameras, the view with alarm and urge people to conserve, but the most telling thing was something that came out of Governor's mouth. She said we should use this as an opportunity to come up with a conservation plan that we probably should have had in place by now. That's really the key. Nobody thinks about it until after the pipeline goes down, until after we invade Iraq and we didn't come up with a plan then. We didn't come up with a plan after 1970. We're still sitting here, don't know how to get fuel, don't know how to conserve fuel. People are buying larger vehicles and all of a sudden, the Governor is saying, you know, we really need a plan, thanks, gov.

>> Michael: The current prognosis is it might be back in operation in a week to two weeks?

>> Howard: One to two weeks. As I said, they'll be pressurizing segments of pipe. They'll do two different types of testing. The first is they're going to do a very high pressure test, 150% of normal pressure for a short period of time, and then they are going to do a lower pressure test for a longer period of time and then basically check for leaks.

>> Michael: Barrett, in the meantime, I realize the price, obviously, is way up, but in terms of supply, trucks have been scrambled, other sort of makeshift things have been put together. So the supply problem is solved?

>> Barrett: Not at all. Trucking gas from Tucson is (A), expensive and (B), slow. They have increased the supply out of California, but it's not enough to make up for what's been lost. We will still have supply problems, not as bad, hopefully, within another week, but an idea that was considered but unfortunately we can't do right now is sending international guard planes to air tankers to get gas and bring it to the Phoenix area. The only problem is, our Air Force is now serving in Iraq. So we can't do that.

>> Michael: And also, getting the things that they dangle into your gas -- we're talking some fancy driving here.

>> Howard: There is another problem in terms of the west coast supply. We're still using MTBE, which is a gasoline-based derivative. It's an oxygenate. Because of the fact that California is phasing it out, they have to produce it only for Arizona. So it's not just a question of getting gas from California, it's getting gas that's been blended to the formula that we use here, and the Governor so far refused to suspend that requirement.

>> Barrett: Looking on the horizon, though, they are going to build an increased pipeline, about $180 million investment. Hopefully something like this will happen now, and then we won't have to hear about it until the bigger pipeline breaks.

>> Michael: Speaking of energy and happenings of things like that, "Star" checked into weather the northeast, New England, Upper Midwest blackout could happen here?

>> Barrett: It absolutely could. In fact, it did back in 1996. You know, the west experienced something similar, not quite as severe as what happened on the east coast. Ours only lasted a few hours here in the valley and down in Tucson, but you know, it's the problem with how dependent we are on energy and gasoline and{ } --

>> Michael: And the associated infrastructure, pipelines transition lines --

>> Howard: What's interesting, is every politician has jumped on this and said we're going to make ourselves energy independent and have a plan on Monday, not understanding the nature of the grid system, why we have the grid system. For example, we -- APS made the arrangement years ago with Pacific Corp. We send them energy in the winter, they send it in the summer so we don't have to build new plants here. The other essence of the grid system is, it's supposed to trip off when something goes wrong. If a lot of power coming in isn't coming in, you don't want to overload your local plant, so it's supposed to trip off. The system worked the way it was supposed to. This isn't a question if we build more power plants we won't have blackouts.

>> Barrett: Not only that, but here in Arizona, we have -- or in the west, there is a lot of diversity. In the summer, Seattle doesn't need the energy, whereas we need it in the winter, vice versa. Whereas in the east everybody is facing the same kind of weather conditions.

>> Michael: All right. Speaking of electrifying things, early voting got underway this week in the City of Phoenix. Phil Gordon, Randy Pullen running to replace mayor Skip Rimsza. First off, Mary Jo, Phil picked up a couple of key endorsements this week?

>> Mary Jo: Yes, he did a news conference with Governor Napolitano. No big surprise there, but she showed up at an education event to tout their mutual education agendas. Gordon envisions a bigger role for the city in education than were used to seeing coming out of city hall. This isn't New York; this isn't Chicago where the cities run the school districts, and Gordon is not proposing to do that, but he wants the city to help out, and help sponsor trade specific high schools. After the Napolitano endorsement, they announced one for former Governor Jane Hull and her husband Terry. Oh, yes, and Maricopa County supervisor, Andy Knacek (ph). She has a whole stack of endorsements. Tomorrow they are announcing that Senator MCCain is also endorsing Gordon.

>> Michael: I realize that endorsements -- the strength and vigor of endorsements will vary from person to person, but you know, is this much of a boost or not?

>> Mary Jo: I can't see how it's much of a boost. Gordon has got the --

>> Barrett: Does he need the boost?

>> Mary Jo: That's exactly the point. Nobody has done polling, but there is -- if you look at it in terms of strength, man power, dollars, number of signs, presence in the community, Gordon has a lopsided edge over his opponent.

>> Michael: Randy Pullen counters with if I break any of my campaign promises I will go to binding arbitration. Do I have this correct?

>> Mary Jo: Yes, this document is notarized and on file with the city clerk's office for anybody who wants to read it. It is modeled after something pushed by a newly form California foundation called the microtution foundation. Microtution as in "Constitution." And the idea is to hold candidates accountable. It's taking the contract with America one step further and ensconcing it in binding arbitration.

>> Howard: Which is the stupidest -- sorry. Let's assume -- I understand that. Bless your heart for keeping a straight face.

>> Mary Jo: Are you still a Phoenix resident?

>> Howard: I don't have to worry about who gets elected. I'll tell you, the idea that you will take something that may have been said on a campaign speech, that you might have written about and you know, five months later, somebody is going to say you violated it. You take it to the American arbitration association and say Mr. Pullen you violated. What's the remedy? What is the remedy? You are going to make him go back and do it the way he said he's going to do it?

>> Mary Jo: That's what you arbitrate.

>> Howard: But what's the remedy? I mean, you know, if he had signed something saying if I break a campaign promise I will quit, and I will put this in writing and everything else, fine, then we've got a deal. Binding arbitration? Come on, now.

>> Mary Jo: There is an argument that there are other mechanisms in the system already, recall, which is not a foreign device, certainly Phoenix city hall they have had their share. Or the concept every four years you stand for reelection. This speeds that up, and if a Phoenix citizen feels he doesn't keep his word, they can take him off to arbitration.

>> Michael: Certainly the highest profile of the council races is district 4, Jessica Florez and Tom Simplot? They debated this week?

>> Mary Jo: Yes, they went to the confines of a funeral home, guess business was slow, so they had a lot of room. We shall see come September 9th. These two have been going round and round for a couple of months, very comfortable being each other's opponents. Very comfortable taking jabs at each other, and Florez used this to announce a new initiative that she would push if elected to the council, which is the dogs and lights program.

>> Michael: And the dogs and lights program is precisely what?

>> Howard: It involves dogs and lights.

>> Howard: Will dogs be wearing lights?

>> Mary Jo: I think they could, if you post them on tall posts, so that they illuminate alleys. It's an idea, voluntary idea, to hook people up with homeless dogs so you take care of a couple of problems a homeless dog situation, and you bring them into people's homes and dogs can be pretty good at protecting your property.

>> Barrett: Why not bring in a homeless person, and let them protect your property?

>> Michael: What about -- the lights proposal was basically just to prevent crime, increase neighborhood lighting, that kind of thing?

>> Mary Jo: Right, put lights up in alleys and dark places as a deterrent.

>> Michael: The thought doing the city would do more of this or would this be a citizen participation?

>> Mary Jo: It's a citizen participation thing. There could be money from blockwatch. There is a couple of problems with it. It alienates cat lovers. You've lost half of the population. We are a cat and dog society.

>> Howard: There are people who watch this show who wonder are we making this stuff up? And I have to convince that anything we would make up would pale in comparison with Arizona politics.

>> Michael: Please don't use "pale in comparison" in relation to the lights proposal. I don't think that's going to work.

>>> Michael: Let's go down to Tucson.

>> Barrett: We have no promises to follow every word that we say.

>> Mary Jo: Or an electric light parade.

>> Michael: You have a -- has Janet Napolitano now officially endorsed Tom Volgy (ph)?

>> Barrett: She's done everything but go down there and tell the world that she will, but she told me that she will endorse him and she will have an event down there sometime before the election, sometime soon. I mean, in a sense, it was a no brainer, Volgy is a Democrat and former mayor, but still, Bob Walkup (ph) who is the current mayor supported the Governor in the quest to get the legislature to take her education budget and her child care subsidy budget and lock up, you know, tried to help her, he sent some letters to Republicans, and I think some of that was an attempt to either get her, you know, if not to endorse him --

>> Michael: Maybe ask her to stay out?

>> Barrett: Yeah, make it a quiet thing, but the Governor does believe that it's time for a change in Tucson, and Volgy is the one.

>> Mary Jo & Howard: You mean take back.

>> Michael: Now, he has been out of office for sometime. I seem to recall he was fairly popular. Does he still have his base of support, viable race?

>> Barrett: Absolutely. Unlike the Phoenix race, I think here we do have a good race, some good debates, none in a funeral home that I know of, but this is a good race, and I think, you know, the way the Governor is in Tucson, she's first of all, always there, and she's very popular down there, so her endorsement could have some kind of impact.

>> Michael: Campaigns past. DPS says that the Colorado City document that circulated in last year's gubernatorial campaign was a fake, a fraud.

>> Howard: This is shocking that there would be fraudulent documents in the campaign. This is a strange document that surfaced during the primary race last year. Janet Napolitano, you remember, was the attorney general at the time. Dick Mahoney was one of the people who was running against her, and Dick had said that Janet was hiding -- and not hiding efforts to -- basically not prosecuting polygamy in Colorado City. There was a memo that came out supposedly from somebody in the AG's office, saying we're having problems prosecuting, we should use the public records law that hides this information, and Janet and the AG people said we've never seen this memo, we don't know who this person is. And the DPS finally finished an investigation and said, well, we think we have the memo tracked back to a fax in a secure area of the Department of Corrections, but we don't know who had access to it. We have some ideas but we don't have anything to prosecute. Essentially, it was a lot of nothing. And it really ends there. There is no way of proving who put out the memo, did they know it was fraudulent, and was it done for the purpose of influencing the campaign, which obviously it didn't do.

>> Michael: We'll debate that later.

>>> Michael: President Bush paid a brief visit to Arizona Monday, touring the site of this summer's Aspen fire. What did the president do during his trip?

>> Barrett: He pushed for the Healthy Forest Initiative. The only time President Bush comes here is to view fire damage. He came last year at Rodeo-Chediski, this year at Aspen. I'm sure next year we'll have a fire, and he'll come visit that, unfortunately. So he came really to talk about his healthy forest initiative and to try and get some public support behind him, and to, you know, except for a crucial vote for the senate, it cleared the house.

>> Michael: Cleared the house.

>> Barrett: I wouldn't say it's stalling in the senate but there are concerns that it doesn't have the votes right now. There's going to be some debate.

>> Mary Jo: Senator McCain could be a pivotal vote on that. On the other hand Senator Kyl is an ardent supporter. Senator McCain says it needs a little bit of work.

>> Michael: The controversial aspect of this was the fact that Governor Napolitano was not there. She was on her last day of vacation. What do you think?

>> Barrett: Well, this is a Governor who has seriously been complaining about lack of federal funding. She was on a vacation, a long-planned vacation, but you know, she's had most of her vacation. It was the day before she was supposed to come back, and you know, some out there say, hey, you've got the president of the United States right there viewing the damage, talk to him about, you know, your needs. She sent several letters, but there is nothing like having the man's ear that you can talk to face-to-face. But she decided to stay on her vacation. I think she's come into some criticism for that.

>> Howard: The other piece of it, maybe I'm ascribing motives that she doesn't want to have, her position on some of the forest issues has not been terribly clear. She's been trying to balance the rural communities that she's supportive of with the environmental interests. She has said that we should waive some environmental regulations for clearing around communities, and we should allow some other forms of cutting in the forest without going through the same hoops. But she's not supportive of the president's initiative saying that's too much, and she really hasn't had a clear-cut stance other than send us more money.

>> Michael: What you're saying if the Governor had had the president's ear, she wouldn't have known what to say? Am I assessing that correctly?

>> Howard: She might have known what to say, she might not have wanted it on the record that this is her firm and clear position.

>> Michael: One other related development this week, a legislative committee appointed on -- I get the impression, broad forest health issues, but most of the press conference was devoted to reviving the logging industry?

>> Barrett: Well, you know, the industry up in northern Arizona has taken a big hit. There is not a lot of projects going on, and there are people there saying, you know, we can bring back some of this industry if we can get more thinning projects, more money from the feds or the state or anybody to do some of these projects, and so, what this committee will basically be looking at is how can we -- can the state give any incentives to private business to come back. Now, they are going to need federal involvement, because they are going to need these projects, which the state has nothing to do over, and you know, I don't know that this legislative committee will go any further than pick a name out of a hat legislative committee, but that's what they are really aiming to do.

>> Michael: Mary Jo, one of the realities is that you've got so much forest mass out there, there is not enough taxpayer dollars that could ever clear it, and absent, at least, some sort of commercial activity, I don't know that you can make much of a dent in the problem.

>> Mary Jo: That's the argument, and that's why people like Speaker Flake and Senator Kyl say, look, there's got to be a role for commercial timbering in this operation, and to make that work, they may have to cut down some big trees which is where the fight is. Nobody is going to go over the wall over a four-inch diameter tree, but that's where we have our big problems. One of the things that the state panel I think is going to push the feds for, they want an assured supply. They want to be sure they can go into forest X, Y or Z and work there for 10 years so they can recoup their capital investment. That's not possible right now.

>> Barrett: It's a huge difference between paying $3 to $500 an acre to clear, and then paying you to do the same exact thing. It's a huge difference, and unfortunately, no one can get together to actually find some kind of compromise.

>> Michael: Some completed and for that matter, coming up court developments, let's start with the legislature had reached into maintenance and operation funds as one of the budget balancing techniques that had been challenged as improper. Court of Appeals says no, legislature did okay.

>> Howard: This is very significant, because after the Supreme Court voided the old system for funding school construction, which was, let each local school district handle it with their own taxpayers, the legislature came up with something called Students First. The idea was the state would take the responsibility to do new building construction but fixing the deficiencies and the maintenance. The idea behind the maintenance fund was doing two things. Number one, routine repairs. You fix the roof to prevent a big leak, and number two, you create a fund so when the roof finally does go, you've got enough money built up. The legislature has never really fully funded the formula. I mean, we're really talking a quarter billion dollars behind right now in terms of the funding on that. Some of the school districts sued. They got a superior court judge to say no, you have to fund the formula. What happened this week is the Court of Appeals said this week, well, here's the deal. The constitution only requires that the state provide the facilities necessary to make sure kids are educated. There are no current problems that are getting in the way of that.

>> Michael: The roof is not currently leaking.

>> Howard:he roof is not leaking.

>> Michael: It may be degrading but it is not leaking.

>> Howard: What the judge said, the legislature is free to make that decision not to fund it now even if it costs more taxpayer dollars down the road, they are entitled to make that decision to keep the money now.

>> Michael: Barrett, the Governor's office has filed a response on the challenge to her line-item vetoes. That is before the Supreme Court.

>> Barrett: Supreme Court. They filed it right with the Supreme Court. And her response was a legal equivalent of the raspberries. She says you know first of all, the legislature never attempted to override my vetoes. Number two, you have four people out there who happen to be the speaker, senate president and two majority leaders who are challenging this, but it's not the legislature, and so, you know, until we see some legislative action, they don't have standing to bring this action. And then she makes a lot of other arguments that even if you buy it, I'm still okay.

>> Michael: All right. Panelists, we're out of time. Interesting week. Thank you very much.

>>> Michael: We will have no show on Monday, but Tuesday, Arizona's new DES director discusses public response to recommendations aimed at reforming the controversial nature sometimes of Child Protective Services. And on Thursday, we'll look at the forest health summit held in Show Low and see what progress has been made to protect Arizona wild lands. That and probably more next week on "Horizon." Thank you very much for joining us on this Friday edition. I hope you have an incredibly fine weekend. I'm Michael Grant, good night.