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Transcripts

September 9, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
Candidates' Forum: Governor - Independent candidate
An interview with candidate, Richard Mahoney;
"Stories of Arizona" profiles, Mary Thomas
In-Studio Guests:
Richard Mahoney, Independent candidate for governor of Arizona

>> Michael: Tonight on "Horizon," he's running for Governor as an independent. Find out why Dick Mahoney thinks he can best traditional party candidates come November. Plus, she was one of the first female tribal leaders in the state. "Stories of Arizona" looks at Mary Thomas, former Governor of the Gila River Indian community. Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon. Perhaps lost in the media's primary coverage of the race for Governor is one candidate who is waiting in the wings come November. Richard Mahoney is running as an Independent. Mahoney is an executive education instructor who formerly taught at the Thunderbird School of International Management. Mahoney served as Arizona Secretary of State from 1991 to 1995. He also served on the Board of the Central Arizona Water Conservation District. Mahoney is a fourth generation Arizonan. He is divorced with one child. With me now is Dick Mahoney. Dick, it's good to see you again.

>> Richard Mahoney: Thank you, Mike.

>> Michael: I've got to ask about your leg. You've wounded yourself putting up a campaign sign a couple of weeks ago.

>> Richard Mahoney: I did. I enjoy it. I've done this in all of my races statewide. I was trying to go up a mountaintop outside of Globe and I was throwing a steel post and buried the flange right up to the bone and sliced open my thigh.

>> Michael: Forty stitches or so?

>> Richard Mahoney: Yes and these painkillers really do help. I've recommended that Matt Salmon take them.

>> Michael: All right. Why are you running as an Independent?

>> Richard Mahoney: I think it's the one way to govern independent of the usual cast of characters and the usual inside traders. Whether it's alt fuels, the stadium, state bankruptcy, I mean, business as usual is costing the state a lot. So the one way to offer an alternative to that is to run that way. If you run inside these parties, I mean, you trade out. You trade out.

>> Michael: Practically, though, don't you become in the governance process, a guy without a country? I mean, you know, you haven't got -- even if you are a Democrat Governor with a Republican controlled legislature, you've got some Democrats over there, and an "I" has got nobody.

>> Richard Mahoney: That's true. There is definitely -- we've got to find a vital center between the two extremes of the Democrat and Republican parties. I think an Independent like Angus Cain in Maine and Jay Hammond in Alaska really overcame the fact that they didn't have a party. They Were Independents, and they were able to craft working majorities.

>> Michael: Any parallels that you see with Jesse Ventura, another one, between his candidacy and yours?

>> Richard Mahoney: I've got more hair than he does. I'm not going to go out in a boa, or should I, my mom wouldn't like it. I think there is a lot of frustration and optimism out there. Democrats and Republicans, how can they escape total unaccountability, right? For what has happened. We've gone from a $500 million surplus to a $500 million deficit or more, and then this continuing saga of, you know, gross incompetence, and I just don't think the front runners, with all due respect, one of them is a friend of mine, really are offering any solid, clear sense of direction.

>> Michael: Does Dick Mahoney wound Janet Napolitano most in November?

>> Richard Mahoney: Well, that was the original thinking about a year ago, but Earl deBurg, a very serious pollster, has done two or three polls that show me drawing equally from Republicans and Democrats, so actually, according to Janet's internal polls, I actually draw more Republicans.

>> Michael: Let me go to the budget situation. And actually, we've got a fairly pithy hypothetical here. As you know, in the past couple of weeks or so, it looks like this year's budget is going to be, let's call it $300 million short. So it's got to be remedied. Question one, Governor Hull has said, all right, I can take care of $140 or $150 million or so with a 10% across-the-board major agency cuts. Right approach or wrong approach in your opinion to that half of the problem?

>> Richard Mahoney: I don't think she has an easy job, right? This is thankless; however, this business of across-the-board cuts is nuts. When I was Secretary of State, I had a few divisions, right? Like five of them. Some were operating very, very well, very productively, served the public. Others were redundant or operating poorly. The same goes for state government. How are you going to put a long-term healthcare program for people after operations for the elderly, alongside some redundant program, such as gang prevention, in state government? I mean, there is some good programs, right? And some bad ones and across-the-board cuts really don't get to those. I think we need to restructure and we need to actually eliminate some agencies of government.

>> Michael: Agreed. But number one, I don't know that the Governor has the authority to do that midterm, and number two, the problem is, for example, with ALTCS, it's like LOMAN and the banks. That's where the money is and in order to put together a critical mass of $150 or so million dollars, you've got to go to some of those agencies that maybe the mission is perceived to be a little more critical than some of the others.

>> Richard Mahoney: It's true. These are big, big budget corrections, DES, DHS; however, I've identified $330 million of cuts, people that go to my Web site and look at them, Mahoneyforgovernor.com, I've identified 46 sales tax exemptions that I think should be closed and that's specific stuff. I've generally excluded healthcare, education, and public safety in those cuts. I think we ought to eliminate the Department of Commerce, Mike. I think that's just -- you won't hear that from Janet Napolitano or Matt Salmon. I do this book cook across-the-board. There are parts of state government that allows it. The Governor ought to go back in there -- JLBC has come out with marvelous -- Joint Legislative Budget Committee -- hit lists, right? So has the Goldwater Institute. These are qualitative evaluations of programs that work and other programs that are nothing more than administrative drift.

>> Michael: I haven't visited the Web site, give me three of the programs cut under the $340 million, did you say?

>> Richard Mahoney: $333 million.

>> Michael: Give me the top three. Give me some feel for the Richard Mahoney cuts.

>> Richard Mahoney: You eliminate the Department of Commerce and take 50% of its budget that's legit and download it to the cities and towns that do have good lit programs.

>> Michael: What does that get you?

>> Richard Mahoney: That gets you about $4 million. You eliminate, I think the Office of Tourism, and do the same thing. That's about, you know, that's a $10 million program, $14 million under the proposed increase, and you take half of that and factor it into things like Valley of the Sun Visitors and Convention Bureau. I think you eliminate the state lottery administration. These guys have been engaging in fraud, they got away with it or at least they are in court. But you know, in other states, the lottery pays for itself. Why are we paying $43 million for the administration of the lottery? I don't understand that. And then I think you know you need to audit, you know, the Department of Real Estate, some of these are littler guys. ADOT as well. What I found as Secretary of State, and I returned 15% of my budget to the state in the form of a check every year, took a $10,000 pay cut myself. There are programs that are good, others that are not. Here's another thing we ought to do, Mike. We have five natural resource departments. In other states that's a single department. We have Department of Water Resources, environmental quality, the land department, agriculture, and the geographic survey. Why do we have all of these different administrative entities, right? With their own personnel department, with two or three levels of administration. Why can't we look at consolidating those and achieving a 25% cut in the total budget of those agencies?

>> Michael: So the bottom line is, Dick Mahoney thinks that a $300 million shortfall could be solved by budget cuts only?

>> Richard Mahoney: I think you can solve that initial one through budget cuts only; however, as people have speculated, Mike, including yourself, I think correctly, this thing is going to go much beyond that. This thing is going to rise to something of the order of $700 million plus. And at that point, I don't understand how you can avoid taking the sales tax exemption situation. We have 121 sales tax exemptions. We had 60 in 1990. When I was a kid in Phoenix, we had 1. A lot of this corporate welfare -- and it is just that -- needs to be examined. And we need to say to these corporations, hey, pay your fair share.

>> Michael: Dick, here's one of the problems. I suppose it depends on your definition of "exemption". For example, we don't, in this state, tax at the wholesale level, we tax at the retail level. Some people would say that's an exemption, others would say it avoids double taxation on the 8 same transaction. Part of it goes to what is your definition of an exemption? Most of the numbers I have seen indicate that closing loopholes, closing exemptions, doesn't generate that much money, maybe in the vicinity of $50, $100 million. Where you get a lot of money is where you expand the size of the base, either stretching it out to services or, for example, taxing it at wholesale. Do you see the situation differently than that?

>> Richard Mahoney: No, I don't. I think generally you're right. I count about $625 million of generation of fair taxes in that, which is a larger number than you gave, Mike. I think that first of all, you exclude, right, traditional services that never were taxed, whether it's medical, education, groceries, nonprofits --

>> Michael: Barbers.

>> Richard Mahoney: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. I'm proud of what remains. I appreciate your sensetivity.

>> Michael: Sure.

>> Richard Mahoney: You exclude those, right, but there are a whole bunch of little ones like dating services, $16 millions, the 1-900 industry, that's $19 million, and then bigger ones like credit reports, that's about $27 million, and then in the wholesale area, I think for reasons that you said, you don't want double taxation; however, I agree with Alfredo Gutierrez that there is one that deserves to be taxed and would bring in something on the order of $405 to $410 million dollars. And that is --

>> Michael: That's the gas one?

>> Richard Mahoney: The sale of out of state energy. Which by the way, in other states is taxed.

>> Michael: How do you feel about the income tax now that we're on the downhillside of the budget cycle?

>> Richard Mahoney: The state income tax?

>> Michael: Right. Obviously you were an active supporter of an effort to repeal the tax a few years backs, which did not make the ballot by court decision.

>> Richard Mahoney: That's right.

>> Michael: Have you rethought that position or not?

>> Richard Mahoney: Well, I think that -- I'm a police who believes in consumption taxes, not income tax, and there is a serious national movement along those lines, but in an economy such as we have, depressed, pretty weak, a serious fiscal deficit such as we have, along with the debt alongside it, no, you really cannot change the income tax level.

>> Michael: Let me give you a hypothetical. Let's say Dick Mahoney is Governor, and it's now 2005, and things have turned back around, would repeal of income tax come under your agenda at that point in time if you thought the state fiscally could afford it?

>> Richard Mahoney: Yeah, I think if we can sustain, you know, the sales tax situation, Mike, I think that's -- that could be on the table. I think one of our problems with sales tax, though, is that we have sales taxes. We have state and municipal that are on the order of anything 10 from 8 to 9.7%. Once we get into double digits, I think we'll have a lot of people escaping the sales tax through Internet sales. So I think one of the things that would be difficult about removing the income tax is the sales tax base looks wobbly.

>> Michael: Okay. Let me touch on several subjects that have come up in various campaigns so far in the primary and get your position in it. Death penalty has become an issue. What's your position on the death penalty?

>> Richard Mahoney: I'm pro death penalty, but I would immediately stay all executions pending proof that the death penalty was fairly administered, and I think to assist in that process, that DPS should have a DNA bank and that all people who have felonies should have blood samples. This would exonerate a lot of people. It would convict a lot of people of other crimes, other than the ones that they are charged with, and I think it would give us a fair take. I'm not satisfied at all, Mike, with the risk that we're putting to death innocent people.

>> Michael: The right to work Constitutional provision has become a major issue in the Democratic primary. Should Arizona repeal the right to work provision in the constitution?

>> Richard Mahoney: Well, I used to be a member of Laborers local 383 so I'm a union guy, so I believe in collective bargaining. I would say this, though, our state and economy have evolved 11 so strongly in the other direction, that to make that a pitched battle would be difficult. I personally would support the repeal. Would this be a priority, no.

>> Michael: Gaming initiatives. There are three. Do you like any of them? All of them? None of them?

>> Richard Mahoney: You know, I do like the multitribe, the 17-tribe.

>> Michael: What's that 202?

>> Richard Mahoney: 202.

>> Michael: For what reason, in contrast to the other two?

>> Richard Mahoney: Well, I think it's valid that there is an expansion of Indian gaming and the trading of slots among the tribes, that it goes to casino gambling, number one, number two, I think the revenue derived in terms of tourism and Indian health is significant.

>> Michael: What about the marijuana proposition.

>> Richard Mahoney: I support it.

>> Michael: You do?

>> Richard Mahoney: I think the drug war is a catastrophe in terms of empowering a criminal class, in terms of the cost of incarcerating people who are first time, nonviolent drug offenders, so I do support it.

>> Michael: Any nervousness about having the DPS effectively become the state's biggest drug dealer under that initiative?

>> Richard Mahoney: No, I think that's a safe way. That's a way if somebody is in great pain or they are dying under some sort of rubric and need marijuana, who better, who more secure than the DPS to make sure it's being properly distributed. 12

>> Michael: Arizona's open primary system. As you know a federal district judge in Tucson has declared it unconstitutional. It's stayed for the time being, but Independents voting in party primaries a good idea?

>> Richard Mahoney: I think it's a good idea. Obviously, I'm an Independent. I think they are the fastest growing group of voters. We're not a party. We don't like parties, but these two parties are desperately trying to hang onto, you know, their control of government.

>> Michael: Okay. Richard Mahoney, running for Governor as an Independent. We appreciate your stopping by. We wish you the best of luck on the balance of the campaign trail.

>> Richard Mahoney: Thank you.

>> Michael: Take care of that leg.

>> Richard Mahoney: We'll do.

>> Michael: You may recognize her from her appearances on TV as a two-term Governor of the Gila River Indian community. Mary Thomas can be seen in commercials promoting her community and in news stories about the challenges facing it. Each Monday "Horizon" brings you "Stories of Arizona," profiles of people who embody the spirit of Arizona. Tonight Mary Jo West introduces us to Mary Thomas and her many accomplishments.

>> Reporter: Mary Thomas was the first woman to be elected Governor of the Gila River Indian community. The 372,000 acre reservation just south of Phoenix.

>> Mary Thomas: It's very, very challenging because a woman has never ran 13 the tribe before. I love challenges, you know. It's a dull day when there is no challenge.

>> Reporter: Mary has faced and conquered many challenges in her life.

>> Mary Thomas: Since my father was Hopi and my mother was Pima, they couldn't communicate because language is so different. So my first language was English. My mother brought me back to Sacaton and I had to survive because my grandfather spoke only Pima. So, I had to learn it fast. And so I did. We lived in one -- we lived in one big house and my grandfather built that house. He made his own Adobe blocks. It was really one big room with about two feet thick walls and a high pitched roof. It was cold in the winter and hot in the summer. We had no running water and no electricity, and he was -- he was opposed to such things, but we had to gradually work him into it, and he was afraid of electricity. Same way with the water. Our first water was outside. He wouldn't dare let it come inside.

>> Reporter: Today she treasures those memories of her childhood.

>> Mary Thomas: We played games outside and made up our own games and went to the canal to swim. We would walk to the rodeos, the feasts, and the dances, all of those.

>> Reporter: She learned many of the Pima traditions from her grandfather. 14

>> Mary Thomas: He sang a lot of Indian songs. He was such a great teacher. He taught me how to respect things, you know, how to respect people and how to even respect the animals. He had a knack of a very calming effect on things like creatures of the desert. We used to eat quails, eat birds, you know, and they were tiny and there was nothing except putting salt and then sticking them in the oven. Jackrabbits too, especially in an earthen jar was really tasteful. But when my mother went out, she wanted us to experience different things, so she introduced lettuce and tomatoes, and different things like that, you know, different brands of cheese, you know. She would bring that home from work.

>> Reporter: As a girl, Mary often found herself living in two very different worlds. For example, when one of her neighbors got a television.

>> Mary Thomas: Very tiny, black and white, and we would sit there and we'd sit there just glued to that thing. My grandfather would get so exasperated because it was a waste of time. He would pull the plug on us. We were watching something like Mickey Mouse Club, Ben and Marty, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry.

>> Reporter: Mary started school on the reservation, but after second grade, her mother wanted her to get a better education.

>> Mary Thomas: So she took me out and put me in public school at Coolidge and I graduated from there and went to junior high, then I went on to a Catholic boarding school for the rest of my high school years.

>> Reporter: She and her sister both graduated from St. John Mission School as valedictorians.

>> Mary Thomas: We both played sports. We excelled, and I was editor of my school yearbook and the newspaper, and was even, believe it or not, the prom queen in my senior year.

>> Reporter: Her mother made sure they experienced the world beyond the reservation. One summer they traveled to California.

>> Mary Thomas: But she was so thrifty, learned how to stretch that little money that she made to have us experience a train ride, a visit to the ocean, a ride on a roller coaster on Long Beach.

>> Reporter: Like her mother, Mary Thomas is an independent woman. In the 1980s, she got involved in tribal politics.

>> Mary Thomas: I was asked to run for the tribal council. I did that and served three years, and then the novel idea was to run for Lieutenant Governor of the tribe, but to my surprise, I did win that and served three years under Thomas White who was the Governor at the time. It's so complicated and so complex, trying to work under three governments, the tribe, the state and your own. And then he decided not to seek reelection, so he encouraged me to run, and there was a whole field I had to run against, mostly men, but I came out and won that, so I was on my way, you know, to accomplishing something to look at the visions I had for my tribe.

>> Reporter: As Gila River Governor, Mary faced many challenges.

>> Mary Thomas: The number one issues were diabetes, the health issues, as well as our water, our lack of water, and try to get back our rights to the water that we once had. Job creation was one of the biggest hurdles we had to do.

>> Reporter: It was under her leadership that the tribe opened its first casino.

>> Mary Thomas: You have to have money in order to grow, but without any resources, we had to look at different ways. So one of them was the opportunity to go into the gaming business.

>> Reporter: That income has improved the lives of her people.

>> Mary Thomas: Our way of life is changing for us. So, we started addressing our immediate needs, the fire, the police, started to take over our hospital with the funding, so we could have better healthcare and then we also remodeled schools. Kids now know what a computer is, you know, and they are provided in the schools, and we established a $6 million scholarship program, in order to send our kids to college, and we started working on the housing shortage, the housing problems, dilapidated homes, Adobe homes and unsafe homes. We've built over 500 new homes for people to move into.

>> Reporter: She sees a lot of misinformation about Indian gaming. 17

>> Mary Thomas: This is where the misconception goes that if you're making this much money, then you must be rich by now. But that's not the case. Because this operation is just to go back and bring ourselves up to where everybody has been for the longest time, and it's like a family of 16,000 members that what you're making is for them.

>> Reporter: Mary served two terms as Governor then took on a new challenge as chairperson of Gila River Farms, a tribal enterprise using water fought in a long fought legal battle.

>> Mary Thomas: It's been 30 years since we started fighting for the water. Most of the people are gone who knew how the water flowed throughout the year, how the people ate fish a lot. There were trees lining this whole river. So they used that water for agricultural purposes, feeding themselves and the neighbors and the strangers that came through. The water is going to be more valuable than Indian gaming. This farm will be a major player. We have 15,000 acres now. Hopefully when the water starts flowing, we will be farming 140,000 acres. I know I won't see it, but I can see it in my dreams, and I can taste the water that's going to come through. We're going to get our share that we deserve and that is our right.

>> Reporter: Whether fighting for her people or representing them throughout the world, Mary Thomas hopes she can be a model for other women. 18

>> Mary Thomas: And I guess it's the message that I want to relate to the women who aspire to be leaders, you know, just give it all you've got, the best you've got. And you'll come out okay. You know, I still have my enemies out there and my critics and I love them, all of them, you know, just keeps me on my toes. I love to talk about this tribe because I'm so proud of it, you know, and I'm very fortunate to be alive at this time, at this day and age, and to have this desire to let everybody know who the people are from Gila River. They are going to say, oh, yeah, she's the woman who had the vision and that vision made a difference.

>> Michael: Next week on "Stories of Arizona," Bob McCall, an Arizona artist who gained acclaim not by painting the old west, but the new Frontier, space. If you haven't visited "Horizon's" Web site, you might want to do so before tomorrow's election. Go to www.kaet.asu.edu., click on "Horizon." You'll find transcripts of election coverage plus video debates that aired on Channel 8. Tomorrow night, "Horizon" will be on later. Our primary election night coverage begins at 9:30. Joining me will be Grant Woods and Sam Coppersmith. So for up to the minute election results and analysis, please join "Horizon" tomorrow night, starting at 9:30. Thanks for joining us this evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Goodnight.