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Transcripts

September 18, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
Proposition 411: County Jail Tax Extension;
How female jail inmates find new hope through a special performing arts program.
Learn more about Proposition 411 on the Election 2002 Web site.
In-Studio Guests:
Don Stapley, Chairman of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors; Janie Thom, Mesa city council member who opposes the proposition

>> Michael: Tonight on "Horizon," will you vote to extend the current sales tax that pays for county jails? We'll have the debate that may help you decide.

>>> Plus, a story about how some female jail inmates here in our state are finding new hope through a special performing arts program.

>>> Good evening, I'm Michael Grant.

>>> There is no arguing that Maricopa County jails are terribly overcrowded. New jails are being built that will relieve the congestion. That construction is being funded by a one-fifth of a cent sales tax. But now Maricopa County supervisors say there will not be enough money to staff the new jails unless voters pass proposition 411. It extends the current sales tax for an additional 20 years. In a moment, we'll talk about both sides of that issue.

>>> First, we take a closer look at why the county is saying the jails are in a crisis.

>> Reporter Lucero: Maricopa County jails are overcrowded and understaffed. There are nearly 8200 inmates in a jail system meant to hold 5600 and one detention officer for every nine inmates.

>> Lt. Allen Cradic: With almost five times the number of designated inmates, certain aspects of the job have to be circumvented, shortcut. Searches aren't being done like they need to be done. Everything has to be rushed.

>> Reporter Lucero: Two new state of the art County Jail facilities are under construction, two 2 juvenile facilities are being built and a central services complex, all on schedule and within the budget, according to Maricopa County officials.

>> Joe Arpaio: I can only do so much as a present sheriff, but as time goes on, we're going to have more population, weep 3.2 million people and as it grows, you will get bad guys.

>> Reporter Lucero: In 1998, voters recognized that and passed a sales tax to pay for jails under construction. The tax was approved for 9 years or until it generates $900 million. So far it has raised more than $300 million.

>> David Smith: The public very intelligently voted for this thing in 1998. We have delivered on the construction side in accordance with that particular vote. Now, the legislature told us to say, see if the economy won't grow fast enough so that you don't need to extend this beyond $900 million or nine years and we tried. And we did our level best. But everyone knows what's happened to the economy. Everyone knows what's happened to the state budget.

>> Reporter Lucero: County officials say they won't have enough money to staff and operate the new jails. So the board of supervisors placed a measure on the November 5th ballot to extend the sales tax for 20 years. It's estimated that the annual taxes generated from prop 411 will be $132 million, 5% for construction and renovation, 21% for juvenile operations, and 74% for adult operations. Opponents of the extension say it would essentially be a permanent tax, saying voters would not have originally voted for the measure if they had known the county needed more tax money to operate the jails.

>> Michael: Here to talk about proposition 411 in support of the measure, the chairman of the Maricopa County Board of Supervisors, Don Stapley. And opposing the proposition, Mesa city council member Janie Thom. Thank you very much for being with us. Don --

>> Michael -- why should people vote "yes" on proposition 411?

>> Don Stapley: Because public safety is one of the main if not the main purposes for government, especially local government, and we need to keep the bad guys locked up and we need resources to do that. We operate very -- I mean arguably, the most efficient system in the country, not the world, under sheriff Arpaio. We anticipated that we would be back at the time that we went to the legislature in '97 and got the authorization for the tax that is in place today. We asked for a billion and a half dollars over a longer period of time. The legislature said, no, scale back, see if you can work with the booming economy that we had at the time, see -- at the time, see if over the next few years you can operate this out of this tax and we'll cap it at $900 million and/or 7 years, which ever you hit first. We've done the best job we could. 4 The facilities are being built. We're opening them on time and under budget. But we also are in a tough economy, and this is about the future. This is about being able to not only open these facilities over the next 18 to 24 months and staff them adequately, it's about operating them into the future. We could open them and staff them and then we would hit a wall literally without this extension.

>> Michael: Janie, why should people vote "no" on proposition 411?

>> Janie Thom: There are several reasons why they should vote no. First I should say I'm here as an individual. I don't represent any other government in an official capacity. I just wanted to say that the Sheriff's Office is very important to Maricopa County and to all of the people of Arizona. It's the largest county in the state and sheriff Joe Arpaio does a wonderful job and I have to concur with the supervisor Stapley that law enforcement and detention of convicts is of prime concern for all of us. My contention is that we need to prioritize and economize. As chairman of the Board of Supervisors, you've probably tried to do that, but what we're seeing is the -- some of the programs are underfunded and some of them are overfunded and we're spending a lot of money on the healthcare system in the county, and it's taking a disproportionate share of the county funds. I have information here that might help the people understand a little bit about what's going on. The Maricopa County Sheriff's Office detention budget for fiscal year 2003 is $76.4 million, a little bit more than that, and that is in addition to the enforcement budget, which is $63.8 million. So it brings in the enforcement and detention, it comes to $140 million, a little bit more than that.

>> Michael: Do you have numbers on what they are spending on Maricopa Medical Center?

>> Janie Thom: I don't have just the medical center itself, but for fiscal year 2003, this is the comprehensive healthcare facilities. It does not include AHCCCS, but it includes the hospital. It's $399 million dollars, and that compares with just under $315 million the previous year.

>> Michael: Okay, well, Don --

>> Janie Thom: So there's a lot of money being spent there.

>> Michael: The point is address specifically the Maricopa Medical Center or the health budget, if you want, and I think that's sort of a subissue going on here is why can't the county economize to generate the funds to do operation and maintenance on the jails instead of looking for this dedicated revenue source?

>> Don Stapley: Well, there are two separate mandates. One is the criminal justice system that the county is required by statute to operate. The other is a federal statutes and state statutes that require us to operate an integrated healthcare system. In fact, it's a $750 million a year integrated system and were we to just ignore those mandates and shut that system down, it wouldn't raise one dollar for the criminal justice system mandates that we're talking about here with this proposition to extend this tax. You can't supplant dollars from one source, the dollars that operate the healthcare system are state dollars and federal dollars that come through access patients and private pay and other grants, federal and state grants for medical education, for all of the various components. It's a very complex, very large public hospital with 13 clinics four health plans, all integrated and interdependent, if you will, financially.

>> Michael: Let me -- and I'll give Janie a chance to respond to that in a second. Go to the broader issue, though, because I think a lot of people are looking at it and saying, hold it, I recognize budget times are tough. They are not going to be tough for a 20-year period. I think the valley has demonstrated that over and over again. Why can't the county look to sources that it does have some discretion on in terms of spending, and eke out of the budget?

>> Janie Thom: Well, certainly you can do that for a little bit of money here and a little bit of money there, and we have done that. And we think we run about as lean and mean a county as anybody in the nation. 7 In fact, governing magazine has given us awards for our fiscal conservative and financially sound management systems. We have the lowest debt of any county per capita in the nation of our size. $100 million dollars is the number we're talking about here. You can't squeeze that out of a turnips and that's just for openers. It's going to grow with the population, and so we need a dedicated revenue stream to meet this mandate and we're the only county in the state that doesn't have that sales tax ability.

>> Michael: Answer satisfactory to you on why trimming medical costs would not help out the jails situation?

>> Janie Thom: Well, I really disagree with Mr. Stapley there because he mentioned access. Actually, the figures that I gave you are without access because that's funded separately and is not included in the figures that were given to me by the assistant finance director for the county. When we're talking about using sales tax to fund something that has constant and increasing costs, this is wrong, because we never know how much money is going to be coming into the system. When you're talking about sales tax, sales tax is wonderful in good times when people are spending money and buying things. You have plenty of sales tax coming in, but when times are lean and we're experiencing a little of that now, I know in Mesa we are, you don't receive the sales tax income that you do in the good times. So we're not funding a steady stream.

>> Michael: Isn't the county's response to this one, okay, we'll take our chances though?

>> Janie Thom: I think that's what they said. If you want to gamble with keeping the jails open, I don't know if that's really a good idea.

>> Don Stapley: I don't know if we're really saying that. You have suggested that we look elsewhere for this money. We're talking about $100 million.

>> Janie Thom: Right, it's a large amount of money.

>> Don Stapley: There is no elsewhere, because even if we raised property taxes --

>> Janie Thom: You did.

>> Don Stapley: Let's, you know, that's not my point. My point is even if we were to raise the property tax rate to its maximum, the constitutional cap would only raise to its maximum, which we won't do, because a pose raising property taxes, it would only raise $18 million a year in addition to the current base that we have with our $1.46 per hundred assessed valuation, which is a bargain by any measures, the lowest tax rate in the state of any county. So I don't know how you expect the county to operate without a source of revenue, and we believe in and the voters believed in '98 that this was an appropriate way to do it, with this sales tax.

>> Janie Stapley: Well, you don't have to go to the voters for an increase in the property tax and actually, the property tax rate was increased this year. It is a little bit higher than it was last year, and I checked my tax bill and it's here and you can see it. And actually, in our --

>> Michael: That may be confidential data. So don't show us anything we don't need to see.

>> Don Stapley: We didn't raise your property tax rate.

>> Janie Thom: Oh, yes, you did. I'm not talking about school districts.

>> Don Stapley: The school district may have, but the county Board of Supervisors --

>> Janie Thom: Look at this Mr. Stapley.

>> Don Stapley: I know exactly what --

>> Michael: That's dangerously close to showing confidential information.

>>> Now, any other suggestions?

>> Michael: Janie, is that your key opposition point here?

>> Janie Thom: It's an inappropriate source of revenue for the jail. I do not agree or disagree that we have to fund the jails. We must fund the jails, and we have a mandate to do that, and I know that they have worked hard to address that. It's just that I feel the jails deserve an the sheriff Arpaio deserves a better stream of income. I think that we should be economizing, especially in the healthcare delivery system, because the costs there are just galloping. They are huge. And we should be scaling that back.

>> Michael: Don, let me go to another point that I have heard 10 articulated. Obviously there is a current jail budget of roughly $100 million or so, I think. This revenue stream comes along, and it's a pretty big revenue stream. It's obviously raising money and would do so for a long time. What's the guarantee that the county doesn't take this money, relieve the existing obligation or some portion thereof and as a result of that get a general fund windfall as a result of these new dedicated sales tax proceeds.

>> Don Stapley: That's an excellent question that's one that then senator mark Spitzer asked me and we agreed at the time in 1997 to a maintenance of effort clause in the legislation that allowed us to take this to the voters. That same maintenance of effort requirement is in the extension, which is in -- which is prop 411. What that means, maintenance of effort, is that we will not mix the new money with general fund money that we're currently spending to operate the system. So, the $100 million, approximately, that we're currently spending to operate the system, can't be supplanted to free it up to do other things.

>> Michael: Let me go, though, the other way. Let's say, all right, you maintain the effort, but the sales taxes is successful and the economy grows, generates more money than anticipated. Is that an invitation to spend more money than necessary on the jail system because you have a dedication of effort at the 11 current level, plus whatever the cash stream is thrown off by the new sales tax?

>> Don Stapley: My response to that is we thought that one through very carefully through also. Upon advice from the citizens oversight committee on the jail tax and other experts and consultants, we prioritized the spending and that is a part of our resolution to place this on the ballot. The prioritizing of the spending, then, goes to first the actual facilities themselves, so if we don't need all of the money and there is excess money, then it would secondarily go to the renovation of the existing facilities. And we think we'll have some over the 20-year period of time -- we hope we'll have some, to actually renovate those facilities. And then it goes to any programming to manage the jail population after that, only as a third priority after the others are fully satisfied.

>> Michael: Janie, almost out of time. I'll give you the last word. Any other concerns about proposition 411?

>> Janie Thom: Yes, I would like to have Mr. Stapley, if we have time, tell us why they are coming to the voters so far in advance of expiration of the present tax. The present tax we're paying is supposed to expire in the year 2007, or when $900 million are collected. I don't even know if we're going to be able to retire that tax.

>> Michael: Unfortunately, we will have to leave that a rhetorical question because I'm completely out of time. Janie Thom, thank you for joining us.

>> Janie Stapley: Thank you.

>> Michael: Don Stapley, our thanks to you as well.

>> Don Stapley: I'll answer your question afterwards.

>> Michael: Maybe we'll roll tape. A select group of inmates at the Estrella jail recently were given the chance to participate in a unique program designed to provide creative experiences to female inmates, the "keeping the faith" prison project brought new hope to some of those who lost their way.

>> Reporter Cavanary: It is an incongruous sight, women in jail, deprived of their freedom, yet dancing freely and with obvious pride, despite their surroundings. This performance at the Estrella jail in Phoenix was the culmination of an innovative program, just two weeks earlier, it brought together for the first time, several unique groups of women from different walks of life in a place not usually recognized as a source of artistic expression.

>> Pat Graney: In terms of behavior and language and custom and everything that would define a culture, it's different in there. That's pretty interesting.

>> Reporter Cavanary: Pat Graney is a renown choreographer based in Seattle. Since 1995, she has been bringing her prison project to jail and prison facilities around the country and overseas, reaching out to incarcerated women with a program of movement, writing and visual arts.

>> Pat Graney: I think my work has to do with really looking at sort of the inside secret world of women, how they think about things, how they frame things, how they create things, and I think this leads directly to working with female incarcerated populations.

>> Pat Graney: Hey, good to face it. It's good.

>> Reporter Cavanary: The 13 Estrella inmates who participated in the project were chosen largely for their desire for self-improvement, and bonded quickly as a group.

>> Sheila Perry: Most of the ladies that participated in the keeping the faith program were special to begin with. They were all hand-picked because they love life. And they want to live. And all I did was gave them the opportunity to express themselves.

>> Sara: We all think alike. We are just about where we can finish each other's sentences. It's a special group of ladies. I don't think you could put a better group of people together that would have done when this group did. They are connected with their hearts, their souls. It's special.

>> Reporter Cavanary: In addition to Graney's team, the keeping the faith project involved the participation of ten Arizona artists who attended classes at the jail with inmates as well as separate workshops designed to help them develop their own prison outreach efforts. Sponsored by the Arizona State University Public Events Program, the project was an opportunity for ASU to further its mission of serving and connecting communities through the arts.

>> Colleen Jennings-Rogensack: I would say this work is much about women, who have been incarcerated and have not had that opportunity to express who they are or feel confident in who they are and have someone really believe in them and that someone is not only Pat, but it's themselves, it's the other inmates that work with them, and it's a series of artists that we have brought to the project.

>> Reporter Cavanary: For the visual arts portion of the Estrella project, the theme of mapping was chosen. The women inmates were shown a variety of maps from different countries and time periods, learning how maps can represent not only geography but cultural, spiritual and emotional terrain. The women worked in teams to create shared maps which represented their lives, their hopes and their image anything. They also learned how the technique of mapping could help them improve their lives.

>> Kandi: It has shown me that I needed the structure, mapping, in everything I do, a plan. You know, without that map, there is no plan. With no plan, I end up here. Everything that you do during your day is mapped. You can go -- you can do anything. Go anywhere with it. We went to space on our mapping, and we traveled on stars. It took us everywhere. She showed us an opportunity 15 that we do have when we get out. We can go anywhere with it.

>> Reporter Cavanary: Inmate participants were given writing assignments, creative and autobiographical which were incorporated into the finished performance. The results were candid and moving.

>> Woman: I want to go back to my mother's birth to meet my real grandmother who died giving life to this wonderful, beautiful woman I have the honor to call my mother.

>> Pat Graney: I'm always amazed at the vulnerability and honesty of the participants in the program, how they are willing to stand up and say something about themselves which might be scary, even to them, and they are going to share those things. a lot of people haven't been listened too. I think they want to be listened to. They want to be something other than a statistic or number.

>> Denise: When I came here, I had a lot of feelings inside me that I didn't know how to express and in keeping the faith, I've learned how in so many other ways to express it. When I get out, I won't have to take all of my anger and hide it. I can write it down in journaling. I'm a different person than I was before.

>> Denise: Coming to jail made me quit. Now that I'm sober, I plan on staying that way.

>> Reporter Cavanary: For the most part, inmates who participated in "keeping the faith" had will I if any experience in performing arts. 16 The women took to it with the good natured willingness to try.

>> Pat Graney: Not only is it about the way that movement enables individuals to express their feelings, to release emotions, and thoughts, but also to give empowerment to women. When you're doing your own movement, you are empowered because it is your movement. It's not someone else's. There is a comfort in it. There is also this freedom to take great leaps from it.

>> Reporter Cavanary: For the women of Estrella jail who took part in "keeping the faith," the future remains uncertain and the challenges they face are many. Some have gone onto prison to complete their sentences, some have done their time and have been released, but all will take with them the legacy of one memorable night when anything seemed possible and the world became their creation.

>> Fatimah Halim: I thought the women were incredible. They were so confident. They stood there and their face,, you could see the confidence in their faces. I actually felt as if they had shifted to another point in their lives. I think it was amazing to see how much they accomplished in two weeks. They were given an opportunity to live the rest of their lives and they are going to do well. They are going to be success stories, and I truly believe that.

>> Sara: It's already helped me. It's given me a positive outlook on everything. 17 I'm ready to do it, pay my time and go on with my life.

>> Pat Graney: The best thing about it is when people complete the performance, their expression, their uncontrolled feeling of accomplishment and joy is just an extraordinary experience for me. I just feel like oh, it's so great, and I feel very proud of them and I feel like I can share in that joy indirectly.

>> Michele: I got up there, I didn't care what they said. I was having a good time. I was jammin'. And it really builds up yourself esteem. Nobody can knock that down.

>> Pat Graney: Any time that you can instill a sense of self-belief in someone, it's a good thing. Any time in our world that the arts can aid in that, it is not only a good thing for the individual, for the communities in which the individual will reside, but it's a good thing for the arts, because it continues to tell the story over and over again, that the arts make a difference in our lives.

>> Colleen Jennings-Rogensack: It seems like it was over in a flash. I look back and it seems like it was a dream. I think about it a lot. It makes you go back and be a child again. It's almost like starting your life over, and now we can move on and grow again. [ APPLAUSE ]

>> Michael: If you are looking for information about the general election, the "Horizon" Web site is a great place to start. Go to www.kaet.asu.edu., click 18 on "Horizon," and we have added summaries of propositions you'll find on the ballot in November.

>>> Tomorrow, we'll take a look at the challenges facing Ballet Arizona as it prepares to open its season, plus we explore Arcosanti, the living laboratory combining architecture and ecology.

>>> Thanks for joining us on this Wednesday. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one, good night.