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October 8, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
Election 2002: Ad Watch
HORIZON reporters examine the gubernatorial TV ads;
Proposition 103: Bailable offenses
· Watch the video online [Requires Realplayer]
In-Studio Guests:
Chip Scutari, Arizona Republic political reporter;
George Watson, Professor of Journalism and Telecommunication at Arizona State University

>>MICHAEL: TONIGHT ON "HORIZON," WITH ONE MONTH TO GO BEFORE ELECTION DAY, THE GOVERNOR'S RACE IS HEATING UP. WE'LL BE LOOKING AT SOME OF THE LATEST TELEVISION ADS FOR THOSE CANDIDATES AND THE CLAIMS THEY MAKE AS OUR "AD WATCH" SERIES CONTINUES. AND WE'LL EXAMINE BOTH SIDES OF PROPOSITION 103, WHICH SEEKS TO DENY BAIL FOR CERTAIN SEX OFFENSES. GOOD EVENING, I'M MICHAEL GRANT. THE "GLOVES HAVE COME OFF" IN THE RACE FOR GOVERNOR. TELEVISION ADS FOR THREE OF THE CANDIDATES HAVE BEEN CREATING QUITE A STIR. WE BEGIN OUR LATEST "AD WATCH" WITH A 30-SECOND COMMERCIAL THAT IS FUNDED BY THE ARIZONA DEMOCRATIC PARTY CRITICIZING REPUBLICAN MATT SALMON'S HEALTH CARE RECORD. IF A CANDIDATE PROPOSED A BETTER HEALTH INSURANCE PROGRAM FOR THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN IN ARIZONA, VOTED TO CUT 270 BILLION FROM MEDICARE AND SAID NO TO PUTTING A GUARANTEED PRESCRIPTION DRUG BENEFIT UNDER MEDICARE TO LOWER COSTS WHILE TAKING THOUSANDS FROM PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES FOR THEIR CAMPAIGN, WOULD THAT BE A RECORD FOR US? NO. BUT THAT'S MATT SALMON'S RECORD, A RECORD THAT HURTS ARIZONA.

>> MICHAEL: BUT ARE THOSE CLAIMS ACCURATE? LET'S TAKE ANOTHER LOOK.

>> Sauceda: THE AD BEGINS.

>> IF A CANDIDATE PROPOSED A BETTER HEALTH CARE PROGRAM FOR THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN IN ARIZONA --

>> WHILE TRUE SALMON OPPOSED A $24,000 BLOCK GRANT PROGRAM FOR CHILDREN WITHOUT HEALTH COVERAGE, HE DID VOTE FOR OUR CHILDREN'S HEALTH CARE PROGRAMS. SO THIS CHARGE COULD BE CONSIDERED MISLEADING.

>> VOTED TO CUT $270 BILLION FROM MEDICARE.

>> AS A CONGRESSMAN IN 1995, SALMON VOTED DIFFERENTLY ON DIFFERENT VERSIONS OF BILLS THAT WOULD AFFECT MEDICARE SPENDING. BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS BURIED SOMEWHERE IN THE CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, THIS CLAIM IS AMBIGUOUS. ACCORDING TO THE REPUBLICAN. PARTY, SALMON RECEIVED $4500 FROM PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES, SO THIS IS TRUE.

>> MICHAEL: WE ARE PARTNERING WITH THE ARIZONA REPUBLIC IN OUR AD WATCH SERIES. JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THIS LATEST BATCH OF COMMERCIALS IS CHIP SCUTARI, ARIZONA REPUBLIC POLITICAL REPORTER. AND GEORGE WATSON, PROFESSOR OF JOURNALISM AND TELECOMMUNICATION AT ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY. I GET SO COMFORTABLE WITH YOU GUYS.

>> Chip Scutari: I'M FORGETTABLE, MICHAEL.

>> MICHAEL: CHIP, AS USUALLY THERE ARE GRAINS OF TRUTH IN THIS THING. ARE THERE ENOUGH GRAINS TO MAKE IT MOSTLY ACCURATE OR NOT?

>> Chip Scutari: I THINK WITH MOST OF THE POLITICAL ADS IT'S FAIR TO SAY THEY'RE NOT 100% ACCURATE. THE ONE THING THAT JUMPS OUT, IN THE MID 1990'S THERE'S BIG DEBATE BETWEEN NEWT GINGRICH, THE FORMER SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE, AND PRESIDENT BILL CLINTON. THERE'S THE MEDI-SCARE ISSUE. THE DEMOCRATS WOULD SAY THE REPUBLICANS ARE CUTTING HEALTH CARE FUNDING WHEN IT WAS GOING TO GROW BY 7% AND CLINTON WANTED IT TO GROW BY 8%. TO SAY SALMON VOTED AGAINST $270 BILLION IN FUNDING IS KIND OF INACCURATE BECAUSE IN A LATER BILL HE VOTED FOR SOMETHING THAT INCREASED SPENDING BY 92 BILLION. MOST OF THE CLAIMS COULD BEHALF TRUTHS BUT MOST OF THE POLITICAL ADS ARE NOT ENTIRELY ACCURATE BUT THEY ARE TRYING TO GET A POLITICAL MESSAGE OUT. WITH THE FOUR WEEKS LEFT OF A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN, THAT'S WHAT THESE ADS ARE DESIGNED TO DO

>> MICHAEL: WHAT SORT OF IMPACT DOES IT HAVE, GEORGE?

>>George Watson: NEGATIVE OR ATTACK ADS, AS WE MIGHT REFER TO THEM, DO HAVE AN IMPACT. THAT'S WHY THEY RUN. THEY'RE EFFECTIVE IN A COUPLE OF WAYS. THEY HELP TO GET OUT THE VOTE. AT FIRST THERE WAS SOME THOUGHT AMONG POLITICAL SCIENTISTS IT WAS DISCOURAGING VOTING. IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THAT WAY AT ALL. IT SEEMS TO INCREASE TURNOUT AND IT DOES SEEM TO INFLUENCE VOTERS' OPINIONS

>> MICHAEL: ONE OF THE CLAIMS IS THAT MATT SALMON TOOK THOUSANDS FROM PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES. CLARIFY THAT, WE TOUCHED ON THE ANALYSIS.

>> Chip Scutari: WHEN I FIRST SAW THE AD, HE SAYS TAKES THOUSANDS, YOU THINK 50, 60, 100,000. HE TOOK 4,500. THE AD DOESN'T MENTION THAT JANICE GOT 750 FROM PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES WHEN SHE RAN FOR A.G. IN 1998. YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER, WHEN MATT RAN FOR CONGRESS THREE DIFFERENT TIMES HE RAISED TONS OF MONEY, SO 4,500 IS A PRETTY INSIGNIFICANT AMOUNT. IS THAT MISLEADING TO THE VOTERS? I WOULD SAY YES.

>> MICHAEL: THIS IS RUN BY THE PARTY ITSELF, NOT THE NAPOLITANO CAMPAIGN. DO VOTERS DIFFERENTIATE?

>> George Watson: SOMETIMES. OFTEN YOU DON'T PAY THAT MUCH ATTENTION BECAUSE IT'S A TRAILER AT THE END TO TELL YOU WHO IS FUNDING THE THING. YOUR OPPONENT WILL OFTEN TELL YOU WHO IS DOING IT. THERE IS SOME SUGGESTION THAT NEGATIVE ADS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE RUN BY THE PACS OR PARTIES RATHER THAN THE CANDIDATES THEMSELVES SO THE CANDIDATES CAN SAY, I'M RUNNING A CLEAN CAMPAIGN AND LET THE OTHERS DO THE ATTACK.

>> MICHAEL: OUR NEXT COMMERCIAL IS FINANCED BY THE ARIZONA REPUBLICAN PARTY. THIS 30-SECOND SPOT CRITICIZES DEMOCRAT JANET NAPOLITANO FOR HER POSITION ON TAXES. JANET NAPOLITANO SUPPORTERS ARE FALSELY ATTACKING MATT SALMON. ATTACKS ON MATT SALMON ARE CALLED FUNDAMENTALLY DISHONEST. LOOK AT SALMON'S RECORD. CUTTING TAXES, BALANCING BUDGETS. JANET NAPOLITANO'S AGENDA? ON INCREASING TAXES, NAPOLITANO STATED, WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT EVERYTHING. $100 MILLION IN HIGHER SALES TAXES, HIGHER INCOME TAXES, CORPORATE TAXES. JANET NAPOLITANO, HIGHER TAXES, ECONOMIC LIBERAL. TOO EXPENSIVE TO BE GOVERNOR.

>> MICHAEL: CHIP, A COUPLE OF FACTUAL POINTS. THE CLAIMS, ATTACKS ON MATT SALMON CALLED FUNDAMENTALLY DISHONEST, CITING A REPUBLIC ARTICLE.

>> Chip Scutari: I FOUND THE FUNDAMENTALLY DISHONEST ATTACKS WERE IN A BOB ROBB COLUMN AND HE WAS REFERRING TO BETSEY BAYLESS, WHO IS A PRIMARY RIVAL OF MATT SALMON, SO IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH JANET NAPOLITANO ATTACKING MATT SALMON. THAT WAS DOWNRIGHT INACCURATE. THAT WAS ONE THING THAT STRUCK ME RIGHT OFF THE BAT.

>> MICHAEL: THE TAX INCREASE CLAIMS, THOSE CAME OUT OF A RADIO DEBATE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, DO THEY NOT?

>> Chip Scutari: WHAT HAPPENED WAS THE ARIZONA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE HOSTED A DEBATE WITH ALL FOUR GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATES. AFTER THE DEBATE, TRIBUNE REPORTER, MYSELF AND A FEW OTHERS ASKED JANET WHERE SHE STOOD ON INCOME TAX CUTS, SHE HAD BEEN CRITICIZING THEM DURING THE DEBATE. SHE SAID SOME OF THEM MIGHT HAVE BEEN A MISTAKE, ECONOMICALLY STUPID -- I'M PARAPHRASING HER. SHE SAID ONE REPORTER PRESSED HER, DOES THAT MEAN YOU WOULD BE WILLING TO INCREASE INCOME TAX RATES, AND SHE SAID, WE'RE GOING TO LOOK AT EVERYTHING. SO IMMEDIATELY THE REPUBLICANS STARTED DROOLING WHEN THEY HEARD THAT. THEY SEIZED ON THAT, SAYING IF SHE'S GOING TO LOOK AT THAT, SHE'S GOING TO RAISE YOUR TAXES. SHE AN OLD-FASHIONED TAX AND SPEND LIBERAL NOW. THE ACCURACY OF THAT LINE IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER, IF YOU'RE A DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN.

>> MICHAEL: GEORGE, DOES IT REMAIN A GOOD CATCH PHRASE, TAX AND SPEND LIBERAL? IT'S BEEN PLAYED IN A LOT IN THE PAST 20 OR 30 YEARS.

>> George Watson: DEPENDING ON WHETHER YOU THINK IT'S USEFUL IS HOW REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRATIC YOU MAY BE. I GUESS THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN HOW USEFUL IT STILL IS. NONETHELESS, I THINK IT'S WEARING A LITTLE THIN. SO TO SIMPLY CLAIM THAT EVERYTHING IS ON THE TABLE IS RATHER INNOCUOUS. THIS IS NOT THE LEGISLATURE, THIS IS ONLY THE GOVERNOR. THE GOVERNOR CAN'T RAISE TAXES AND IT TAKES MORE OF THE LEGISLATURE THAN EVER BEFORE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

>> MICHAEL: WHEN THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT SALMON, IT WAS KIND OF CHEERY, AND DARK AND DEPRESSING WHEN TALKING ABOUT JANET?

>> George Watson: THEY ARE VERY ADEPT AT DOING THAT. YOU'LL SEE THAT IN AD AFTER AD WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT YOUR CANDIDATE, IT'S CLEAR AND CRISP AND BRIGHT, AND WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE OTHERS, IT'S DRAB AND THE MUSIC ITSELF BECOMES MORE SINISTER.

>> Chip Scutari: SPEAKING OF THAT, I WAS SURPRISED IN THE ANTI MATT SALMON AD, THEY HAVE A NICE LITTLE PICTURE OF HIM, HE LOOKS LIKE A MODEL. THE ANTI JANET ADS, YOU FIND DISTORTED PICTURES OF HER.

>> MICHAEL: NEXT UP, AN AD THAT'S BEEN CAUSING A LOT OF CONTROVERSY IN THIS SPOT, THE MAHONEY CAMPAIGN ACCUSES NAPOLITANO OF BEING SOFT ON CHILD MOLESTERS.

>> MICHAEL: AND LAST, AN AD IN WHICH MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO REFUTES THE MAHONEY "NAPOLITANO -- SOFT ON CHILD MOLESTERS" SPOT.

>>Sauceda:ABC 20-20 BROKE THE STORY. DESPITE THE FACT THAT JAMES MOORE HAD SEXUALLY MOLESTED 200 BOYS, THEN U.S. ATTORNEY JANET NAPOLITANO REFUSED TO GIVE EVEN A SEARCH WARRANT. WHY? BECAUSE NAPOLITANO BELIEVED THAT HOMOSEXUALS WERE BEING TARGETED. FEDERAL POSTAL INSPECTOR WAS OUTRAGED AT NAPOLITANO.

>> IT DOESN'T MATTER IF THEY DO LITTLE BOYS OR LITTLE GIRLS. IF THEY'RE DOING KIDS, THEY'RE CRIMINALS.

>> JANET, THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF CHILD ABUSERS, THIS IS ABOUT PROTECTING OUR CHILDREN.

>> MICHAEL: CHIP THIS IS A STORY THAT CAME OUT ABOUT SIX YEARS AGO IN THE CLINTON-DOLE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN.

>> Chip Scutari: KIND OF GOT WRAPPED UP IN THE DEBATE OF A PRESIDENTIAL RACE. WHAT BOB DOLE WAS TRYING TO POINT OUT IS THAT CLINTON'S U.S. ATTORNEYS ARE SOFT ON CRIME. HE POINTED OUT JANET NAPOLITANO, WHO WAS THEN THE U.S. ATTORNEY FOR ARIZONA, SAYING SHE DIDN'T GO HARD AFTER THIS CHILD MOLESTER, SHE BLOCKED A SEARCH WARRANT. JANET WILL TELL YOU SHE HAS THE STRONGEST RECORD IN THE NATION GOING AFTER CHILD MOLESTERS. SHE HAS GOT 9 OUT OF 10 SEARCH WARRANTS. THE 20-20 PIECE HAS BEEN DISCREDITED, IT'S SO BIASED. TODAY SALMON AND ROMLEY, THE COUNTY ATTORNEY, HELD A PRESS CONFERENCE TO TALK ABOUT HER SOFT RECORD ON CRIME AND MENTIONED THAT. I DON'T THINK THIS ISSUE IS GOING TO GO AWAY, WHETHER IT'S FAIR OR NOT. WE'LL SEE IF MAHONEY KEEPS RUNNING THE AD. THAT'S STILL AT DEBATE AT THIS POINT.

>> MICHAEL: IN FACT WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THE AD HAS BEEN PULLED. DID DICK MAHONEY GO TOO FAR WITH THIS AD, GEORGE?

>> George Watson: WELL, HE MAY HAVE. THAT KIND OF AD CAN BE REFUTED, AND ESPECIALLY REFUTED EFFECTIVELY AND RELATIVELY EASILY, THEN DOES NOT WORK TO THE BENEFIT OF WHOEVER RAN THE AD. THERE CAN BE NEGATIVE AD BACKLASHES TO THOSE WHO RUN NEGATIVE ADS, AS WELL, AND ULTIMATELY CAN WORK TO THE BENEFIT OF THE PERSON THEY WERE TRYING TO HIT.

>> MICHAEL: THIS IS RUNNING VERY EARLY. IS THAT BECAUSE WE NOW HAVE EARLY VOTING?

>> George Watson: I THINK SO. I THINK DEFINITELY. PEOPLE ARE HAVING TO HIT EARLY BECAUSE SO MANY VOTERS, MAYBE AS MANY AS HALF, ARE GOING TO VOTE BEFORE THE ELECTION DAY GETS HERE. THE DAYS OF WAITING UNTIL THE LAST FOUR OR FIVE DAYS BEFORE AN ELECTION TO DO HIT PIECES IS GONE NOW IN ARIZONA.

>> MICHAEL: CHIP, I THINK JANET NAPOLITANO'S MAIN DEFENSE TO THIS IS NOT THAT SHE WAS REFUSING OR DECLINING TO ISSUE THE SEARCH WARRANT BUT TELLING THE POSTAL INSPECTOR, YOU NEED TO BRING ME SOME MORE PROBABLE CAUSE.

>> Chip Scutari: YES, SHE WANTED MORE EVIDENCE. HER RECORD IN THIS AREA IS VERY STRONG AND SHE FEELS THAT MAHONEY IS POLITICIZING THIS AND IT'S A VICIOUS ATTACK AD. IT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN A CLOSE RACE. MATT AND JANET ARE PRETTY MUCH IN A DEAD HEAT, YOU ARE GOING TO SEE HARD-HITTING ADS FOR THE NEXT FOUR WEEKS. IT'S PART OF GUBERNATORIAL POLITICS IN ARIZONA NOW.

>> MICHAEL: INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH, MATT SALMON GETS A RELATIVELY FREE RIDE AND MAHONEY IS THE ONE THAT OFFERS THE AD.

>>Chip Scutari: JANET'S NEW THING IS SAYING SALMON AND MAHONEY ARE TIED AT THE HIT AND RUNNING A JOINT SMEAR CAMPAIGN. MATT DENIES.

>> Michael Grant" WELL, THE NAPOLITANO CAMPAIGN DIDN'T SIT ON ITS HANDS. LAST WE HAVE AN AD IN WHICH MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO REFUTES THE MAHONEY NAPOLITANO SOFT ON CHILD MOLESTERS SPOT.

>>Sherriff Joe: THIS IS SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO WITH AN URGENT MESSAGE. JANET NAPOLITANO HAS BEEN ATTACKED WITH THE MOST VICIOUS TV AD IN ARIZONA HISTORY. THE AD IS OUTRAGEOUS AND UNTRUE. AS U.S. ATTORNEY, SHE WAS THE NUMBER ONE PROSECUTOR OF CHILD MOLESTERS IN THE NATION. AS OUR ATTORNEY GENERAL, JANET NAPOLITANO HAS STOOD WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT TO PROTECT OUR FAMILIES. THIS IS JOE ARPAIO. JOIN ME IN REJECTING THE ATTACKS AGAINST JANET NAPOLITANO.

>> MICHAEL: THE WAY THAT AD WAS PUT TOGETHER SO QUICKLY, THE SHERIFF IS SPEAKING THERE I UNDERSTAND ON A CELL PHONE. IT DOES INDICATE THE NAPOLITANO CAMPAIGN CONCERN WITH THE AD WHICH STARTED RUNNING I THINK LAST FRIDAY.

>> George Watson: I THINK IT DOES SHOW THAT QUICK RESPONSE, THAT THEY WANTED TO ATTEND TO THAT IMMEDIATELY, LEST IT HAVE ANY IMPACT. YOU CAN SEE THE PRODUCTION VALUES CLEARLY NOT AS GREAT. THE MAIN THING IS TO GET OUT QUICKLY AND REBUT WHAT THEY SEE AS FALSE CLAIMS AGAINST THEM AND DO IT WITH A FIGURE, AND THE FIGURE OF JOE ARPAIO WHO THEY THINK WOULD BE A VERY EFFECTIVE SPOKESPERSON. AND I SUSPECT THEY ARE PROBABLY RIGHT.

>> MICHAEL: I'M NOT SURE WE HAVE OFFICIAL RANKING OF THIS, IS THIS THE MOST VICIOUS AD IN TV HISTORY?

>> Chip Scutari: I SERIOUSLY DOUBT IT.

>> George Watson:I HAVE BEEN HERE FIVE YEARS, I THINK THE PRISON BARS AND MCGOVERN IS A LITTLE MORE VICIOUS THAN THIS.

>> MICHAEL: THE FOUR DAYS OF BEARD GROWTH?

>> Chip Scutari: EXACTLY.

>> MICHAEL: WHAT ABOUT THE CLAIM, NUMBER ONE PROSECUTOR OF CHILD MOLESTERS IN THE NATION? THE CAMPAIGN SAYS THAT COMES FROM THE EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE U.S. ATTORNEY.

>> Chip Scutari: ONE OF THE REPORTERS LOOKED INTO THAT. ROBBY VERIFIED THAT SHE HAD A STRONG RECORD ON THE CHILD MOLESTER CASES. BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING TO MAKE THIS STUFF GO AWAY FROM THE 1996 CASE. PEOPLE SEE FODDER THERE, THEY SEE A VITAL ISSUE OF KIDS AND ADULTS PREYING ON KIDS. BUT JANET STANDS BY HER RECORD, AND WE'LL SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN THE NEXT COUPLE WEEKS.

>> MICHAEL: SHERIFF JOE ARPAIO THE RIGHT PERSON TO DO A REBUTTAL ON THIS ISSUE, GEORGE?

>> George Watson: I THINK HE IS A GOOD PERSON TO DO THIS, BECAUSE OF THE STATUS AS A LAW AND ORDER PERSON. I THINK HE IS PROBABLY A VERY EFFECTIVE PERSON, NOT TO MENTION BEING REPUBLICAN.

>> MICHAEL: HE SEEMS TO BE A PERSON WHO CAN ACTUALLY TRANSLATE HIS POPULARITY INTO A POPULAR MESSAGE WITH VOTERS. IT'S A FUNGIBLE KIND OF APPROVAL RATING.

>> George Watson: I THINK SO. OF COURSE, THAT'S A GROUP THAT JANET MIGHT NOT NORMALLY APPEAL TO. SO THE ABILITY TO HAVE HIM DO THAT FOR HER I THINK IS A REAL BONUS FOR HER.

>>Chip Scutari: I THINK ARPAIO MAY HAVE MORE POLITICAL RAMIFICATION, SOME VOTERS SEEING THAT MIGHT SEE IT AS A QUASI ENDORSEMENT OF JANET NAPOLITANO WHO IS A DEMOCRAT AND ARPAIO IS A REPUBLICAN. WE'LL SEE IF THAT HAS ANY MOVEMENT IN THE POLLS IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF DAYS.

>> MICHAEL: CHIP, THANK YOU. GEORGE WATSON, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> MICHAEL: SHOULD PERSONS ACCUSED OF CERTAIN SEXUAL CRIMES BE HELD IN JAIL WITHOUT BAIL? THAT'S WHAT PROPOSITION 103 ASKS.

>> MICHAEL: SHOULD PERSONS ACCUSED OF CERTAIN SEXUAL CRIMES BE HELD IN JAIL WITHOUT BAIL? THAT'S WHAT PROPOSITION 103 ASKS. RIGHT NOW, ANYONE ARRESTED FOR A CRIME IS ELIGIBLE TO POST BAIL, EXCEPT UNDER THE FOLLOWING CIRCUMSTANCES: IF THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SHOW A PERSON COMMITTED THE CRIME OR THE PRESUMPTION THAT THE PERSON COMMITTED THE CRIME IS GREAT. PLUS THE CHARGE INVOLVED MUST BE MURDER OR THE PERSON IS A DANGER TO THE PUBLIC OR COMMITTED A CRIME WHILE OUT ON BAIL FOR A FELONY. PROPOSITION 103 WOULD AMEND THE STATE CONSTITUTION BY ALSO PROHIBITING BAIL FOR THE FOLLOWING CRIMES: SEXUAL ASSAULT. SEXUAL CONDUCT WITH A MINOR UNDER 15. AND MOLESTATION OF A CHILD UNDER 15. PROPOSITION 103 ALLOWS BAIL TO BE GRANTED IF THE ACCUSED CAN BE ASSURED OF SHOWING UP FOR COURT, IF RELEASE CONDITIONS PROTECT AGAINST THE INTIMIDATION OF WITNESSES, AND THE SAFETY OF THE VICTIM AND COMMUNITY. WITH ME NOW TO DISCUSS STATE SENATOR DEAN MARTIN. SENATOR MARTIN SPONSORED THE REFERENDUM. AGAINST PROPOSITION 103 IS ATTORNEY DARROW SOLL. SENATOR, WHY SHOULD PEOPLE VOTE FOR PROPOSITION 103?

>> Dean Martin: THE RULES HAVE CHANGED. THE U.S. SUPREME COURT RULED CHILD MOLESTERS, RAPISTS CAN BE HELD IF THE STATE CAN SHOW THAT THEY ARE STILL A DANGER TO THE COMMUNITY. NOW, CHILD MOLESTERS, RAPISTS ARE LOOKING AT POTENTIALLY LIFE IN PRISON. IT'S STILL DENIAL OF THEIR LIBERTIES. WE ADD ANOTHER TOOL TO THE TOOLBOX. WE ASK THE VOTERS TO SUPPORT AN AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION THAT SAYS IF THE PROOF IS EVIDENT, PRESUMPTION IS GREAT AND THERE'S A HEARING AND A JUDGE MAKES THAT DETERMINATION, THE BAIL WILL BE DENIED IN THESE CASES. WITHOUT THAT PROTECTION, WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO FIND PROOF EVIDENT, PRESUMPTION GREAT, BUSINESS WOULD BE AS USUAL THROUGH THE CRIMINAL PROCESS.

>> MICHAEL: WHY IS THIS A BAD IDEA?

> Darrow Soll: IT'S EVERYTHING CONSERVATIVE ARIZONANS SHOULD BE AGAINST. IT'S REALLY POLITICAL PANDERING. IT'S A SOLUTION IN SEARCH OF A PROBLEM. IT'S AN UNFUNDED MANDATE, AND IF YOU LOOK AT IT AND YOU KNOW HOW IT'S APPLIED, IT ACTUALLY PUTS VICTIMS AT RISK. WHEN I TALK ABOUT POLITICAL PANDERING, HERE'S WHAT I MEAN. IN THE KANSAS V HENDRICKS CASE, THE COURT SAID FOR A LIMITED NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS, THAT IS A SMALL NUMBER WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE CHARGED WITH THESE OFFENSES. THE OTHER PROBLEM IS THE JOINT LEGISLATIVE COMMITTEE, BUDGET COMMITTEE, HAS ESSENTIALLY SAID, WE KNOW THIS IS GOING TO COST PEOPLE MONEY IN ARIZONA. WE KNOW THIS WILL BE A FINANCING BURDEN. BUT THE REALITY IS, IT IS NOT GOING TO BE BORNE OUT BY THE STATE, IT WILL BE BORNE BY THE COUNTIES. COUNTY JAILS ARE ALREADY FINANCIALLY STRAPPED. YOU'RE GOING TO PUT PEOPLE IN WHO HAVE NO NEED TO BE IN THE COUNTY JAIL SYSTEM. WHEN I SAY IT'S A SOLUTION IN SEARCH OF A PROBLEM, I'VE CONFIRMED THIS WEEK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NOT A SINGLE INDIVIDUAL THAT THEY CAN IDENTIFY WHO FAILED ON PRETRIAL SERVICES RELEASE, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN ARIZONA.

>> MICHAEL: WHAT ABOUT THE ALLEGATION THAT THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM?

>>Dean Martin: THAT'S FALSELY -- A FALSE ACCUSATION. IF YOU LOOK RIGHT HERE AT A.S.U., SEPTEMBER 4TH THERE WAS A STORY, DIAMOND WAS ARRESTED FOR BRINGING WOMEN HEAVILY INTOXICATED TO HIS APARTMENT. WHEN THEY PASSED OUT, HE DID SOME UNPLEASANT THINGS WITH THEM AND VIDEOTAPED IT. THIS INDIVIDUAL WAS ARRESTED, BROUGHT TO COURT, PLEAD GUILTY AND RELEASED ON BAIL AWAITING SENTENCING AND SKIPPED. HE IS STILL AT LARGE CURRENTLY. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT CASES. THIS IS NOT A BURDEN TO THE COURT SYSTEM, NOT A BURDEN TO THE JAIL SYSTEM BECAUSE IT'S NOT GOING TO BE BLATANT OR UNIVERSAL DENIAL OF BAIL. ONLY WHERE THE PROOF IS EVIDENT, PRESUMPTION IS GREAT, WHEN THE MOTION IS MADE BY THE COUNTY ATTORNEY IN CONSULTATION WITH ALL THE EVIDENCE AT HAND.

>> MICHAEL: BUT THE INTENT CLEARLY IS TO KEEP MORE OF THESE CRIMINALS LOCKED UP PRETRIAL. RIGHT? SO IT'S GOING TO HAVE SOME FINANCIAL IMPACT, TRUE?

>>Dean Martin: YES, IT WILL. BECAUSE YOU WILL HAVE TO HOLD THEM IN THE JAIL PENDING THEIR TRIAL. THIS IS DONE CURRENTLY WITH OTHER CASES THAT QUALIFY OR THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO POST BAIL. HOWEVER, TWO THINGS HAVE CHANGED. ONE, IN THE LAST LEGISLATIVE SESSION WE SAID IF YOU ARE HELD AWAITING TRIAL AND LATER CONVICTED, THAT TIME COUNTS. SO IT'S A SAVINGS.

>> MICHAEL: WHAT IS WRONG, WE HAVE CERTAIN CRIMES WHERE BAIL CAN BE DENIED. WHAT'S WRONG WITH ADDING ANOTHER CATEGORY OF CRIMES THAT THE PUBLIC CERTAINLY IS CONCERNED ABOUT BUT IT'S NOT AS IF THEY ARE COMPLETELY DENIED BAIL. THERE ARE CRITERIA THAT THE JUDGE HAS TO EVALUATE TO DETERMINE WHETHER THIS IS THE APPROPRIATE CASE.

>>Darrow Soll: IF IT DOESN'T FUNCTION THE WAY SENATOR MARTIN SAYS. MANY INSTANCES YOU HAVE JUSTICES OF THE PEACE, NON-LAWYERS SETTING BOND. AS YOU KNOW, JUDGES ARE ELECTED OTHER THAN IN MARICOPA COUNTY AND PIMA COUNTY AND THEY ARE UNLIKELY TO PLACE AS LOW BOND AS SENATOR MARTIN SAYS. WHAT YOU HAVE IS THEM PLACING A HIGH, MULTI MILLION DOLLAR BOND OR IN MANY INSTANCES THEY ARE SAYING NON-BONDABLE. I CAN TELL YOU I REPRESENT VICTIMS, 25% OF MY PRACTICE. JUST THIS WEEK I WAS IN COURT WHERE THE JUDGE AT INITIAL APPEARANCE SET NON-BONDABLE. THIS IS AN OFFENSE WHERE THE PERSON WAS ALREADY ON RELEASE CONDITIONS AND COMMITTED ANOTHER FELONY. THAT'S THE OTHER PROBLEM WITH SENATOR MARTIN'S BILL. YOU'RE TINKERING WITH THE CONSTITUTION. IT ALREADY PROVIDES THAT PROTECTION. THERE IS ALREADY A PROVISION THAT SAYS, YOU COMMIT A FELONY WHILE ON FELONY RELEASE, YOU ARE NOT BONDABLE. IT ALSO SAYS THAT A PERSON WHO IS A DANGER TO THE COMMUNITY SHOULD BE HELD NON-BONDABLE. IF THE PROSECUTOR BELIEVES THIS PERSON IS SUCH A DANGER, THEY FILE THAT MOTION, THEY SEEK THAT EVIDENTIARY HEARING IN THE FIRST PLACE. THAT TAKES PLACE EVERY DAY.

>> MICHAEL: HAS THE TOOLBOX ALREADY GOT THIS TOOL?

>> Dean Martin:IT DOES, BUT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE. WE HAVE JUDICIAL DISCRETION BUT THAT'S BEEN REDIRECTED. YOU HAVE TO PROVE FUTURE DANGEROUSNESS. IN THE FUTURE. MOST PROSECUTORS ARE TRYING TO PROVE THE HERE AND NOW. WE ARE SAYING FOR THE THREE LIMITED CRIMES, SEXUAL ASSAULT, CONDUCT WITH A MINOR UNDER 14 AND MOLESTATION WITH A MINOR UNDER 14, YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THE FACTS OF THE CASE YOU'RE BEING CHARGED WITH. IT'S SUBTLE BUT IMPORTANT BECAUSE -- I HAVE A CASE IN FRONT OF ME THAT WAS RIGHT HERE IN MARICOPA COUNTY, AN INDIVIDUAL ARRESTED FOR RAPE, KIDNAPPING AND BURGLARY, AND PREVIOUS BOOKING ON ATTEMPTED SEXUAL ASSAULT, BURGLARY AND KIDNAPPING. THEY ASKED FOR A MILLION DOLLAR BOND BECAUSE THIS WAS A SECOND CHARGE AND THE JUDGE GRANTED $26,000. YOU GET OUT WITH 10 PERCENT OF THAT, WHICH IS 2,600. YOU HAVE A CREDIT CARD AND YOU'RE BACK ON THE STREET.

>> Darrow Soll:HERE'S WHAT THE PROSECUTOR SHOULD HAVE DONE. THIS GUY IS SUCH A DANGER, GO IN, FILE THAT MOTION, SHOW THAT HE IS A RISK TO THE COMMUNITY. ARTICLE II, SECTION 22 OF THE ARIZONA CONSTITUTION ALREADY PROVIDES FOR THIS. IT'S DONE THIS WEEK, IT WAS DONE LAST WEEK, IT'S DONE IN PIMA COUNTY, IT'S DONE IN MOJAVE COUNTY. PROSECUTORS KNOW HOW TO DO THIS AND THEY DO IT IN THE RIGHT CIRCUMSTANCES. WE DON'T PLAY WITH THE CONSTITUTION. WE DON'T PUT A FISCAL MANDATE ON OUR COUNTIES AND THEN REFUSE AT THE LEGISLATURE TO FUND THEM. LET ME TELL YOU, I REPRESENT CHILDREN VICTIMS IN MOLEST CASES. THE LAST THING I WANT TO DO IS EXPOSE THAT CHILD TO ONE MORE OPPORTUNITY TO CROSS-EXAMINATION, AND THAT'S WHAT THIS DOES. THIS CAUSES A HEARING TO TAKE PLACE THAT OTHERWISE WOULDN'T HAVE TO TAKE PLACE. WE DON'T ELECT OUR JUDGES IN THE TWO LARGEST COUNTIES. PRESUMABLY THESE PEOPLE HAVE THE INTESTINAL FORTITUDE TO KNOW WHEN TO PLACE A RIGHT BOND. STATISTICALLY, THEY GET IT RIGHT.

>> MICHAEL: WHAT ABOUT THE IMPACT ON THE VICTIM ARGUMENT?

>> Dean Martin: ACTUALLY, THE VICTIMS BROUGHT THIS ISSUE TO ME. IF SOMEBODY IS LET OUT ON BAIL, THEIR TRIAL IS MUCH LOWER ON THE DOCKET. IF THEY ARE HELD AWAITING TRIAL, THE SPEEDY TRIAL ACT REQUIRES THEY BE MOVED UP ON THE DOCKET AND THE RESOLUTION OF THE ISSUE COMES IN MUCH QUICKER. WILL THERE BE AN EVIDENTIARY HEARING? YES, WE WANT THAT. IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT DUE PROCESS SO THAT THE ACCUSED WILL HAVE THE ABILITY TO SAY NO, THIS EVIDENCE DOES NOT RISE TO THE LEVEL, THEN YOU'RE DENIED DUE PROCESS. WE WANT TO ALLOW THAT HEARING. THE PROSECUTION DOESN'T HAVE TO BRING THE VICTIM IN, THEY CAN USE DNA OR OTHER TYPE OF EVIDENCE IF THEY WANT TO KEEP THE VICTIM OUT.

>> MICHAEL: WE ARE OUT OF TIME. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, SENATOR. MR. SOLL APPRECIATE YOUR INPUT, AS WELL. FOR MORE INFORMATION ABOUT ALL THE BALLOT PROPOSITIONS, PLEASE VISIT CHANNEL 8'S WEBSITE AT WWW.KAET.ASU.EDU, CLICK ON ELECTION 2002, AND FOLLOW THE LINKS.

>>> TOMORROW NIGHT ON "HORIZON," A PROFILE OF THE MESA FAMILY FEATURED IN THE NATIONAL PBS SPECIAL "AND THOU SHALT HONOR: CARING FOR OUR AGING PARENTS, SPOUSES AND FRIENDS." THURSDAY, CANDIDATES FOR THE OFFICE OF STATE TREASURER WILL DEBATE THE ISSUES. PLUS, FROM SNAKE OIL TO ELIXIRS, A LOOK AT HOW MEDICINE WAS PRACTICED IN TERRITORIAL ARIZONA. AND FRIDAY, OUR JOURNALISTS ARE HERE WITH THEIR WEEKLY ROUNDTABLE DISCUSSION OF THE NEWS OF THE WEEK. THANKS FOR BEING WITH US ON A TUESDAY EVENING. I'M MICHAEL GRANT. GOOD NIGHT.