Other transcripts

Transcripts

October 15, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
Results of the state's report on Arizona school performance;
Representatives of groups who are against all the Indian gaming propositions;
The Rise and Fall of Jim Crow, the PBS special currently airing on Channel 8 that explores segregation from the end of the Civil War to the modern Civil Rights movement.
· Learn more about The Rise and Fall of Jim Crow
In-Studio Guests:
Bob Donofrio, superintendent of the Murphy elementary school district;
Penny Kotterman, president of the Arizona Education Association;
Len Muncil, President of the Center for Arizona Policy;
Will Cardone, President of itsabaddeal.com - a group formed to oppose the gaming initiative;
Charles Houston, Phoenix attorney and grandson of Charles Hamilton Houston, who designed an successfully applied a legal strategy that challenged Jim Crow and resulted in the Brown vs. Board of Education decision which desegrated public schools

>> MICHAEL: TONIGHT ON "HORIZON," THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION IDENTIFIES MORE THAN 200 PUBLIC SCHOOLS AS "FAILING." A LOOK AT WHAT IT WILL TAKE TO TURN THEM AROUND. PLUS, THREE BALLOT INITIATIVES WOULD EXPAND GAMBLING IN ARIZONA. WE'LL HEAR FROM OPPONENTS WHO WANT PEOPLE TO VOTE "NO ON ALL THREE PROPOSITIONS. GOOD EVENING. I'M MICHAEL GRANT. WELCOME TO "HORIZON." IN AN ATTEMPT TO IMPROVE ACCOUNTABILITY, THE STATE RELEASED A LIST OF HOW WELL ALL ARIZONA PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE DOING. TEST SCORES WERE USED TO RANK SCHOOLS, AND IN THE CASE OF HIGH SCHOOLS, GRADUATION AND DROPOUT RATES. OF THE NEARLY 1200 SCHOOLS, ONLY TWO ARE DEEMED EXCELLING. OVERALL, 36% ARE CONSIDERED IMPROVING. 44% MAINTAINING PERFORMANCE AND 20% AS UNDERPERFORMING. APACHE COUNTY IN EASTERN ARIZONA HAD 45% OF SCHOOLS LISTED AS FAILING. MARICOPA COUNTY HAD 10 PERCENT. AMONG THE VALLEY'S LARGER SCHOOL DISTRICTS, PHOENIX UNION HIGH SCHOOL HAD 70% OF ITS SCHOOLS LABELED UNDERPERFORMING. 6 9 PERCENT FOR PHOENIX ELEMENTARY. THE STATE' LARGEST DISTRICT, MESA, HAD ONLY 3% OR TWO OF ITS 74 SCHOOLS EARNING THE UNDERPERFORMING TAG. SCHOOLS WHO EARNED THE BOTTOM RANKING MUST COME UP WITH A PLAN TO IMPROVE TEST SCORES. IF SCHOOLS DON'T IMPROVE IN ONE YEAR, A TEAM OF EXPERTS WILL BE SENT TO THE CAMPUS TO HELP. JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT WHERE SCHOOLS GO FROM HERE IS BOB DONOFRIO, SUPERINTENDENT OF THE MURPHY ELEMENTARY SCHOOL DISTRICT. ALL FOUR OF HIS SCHOOLS WERE LABELED UNDERPERFORMING. ALSO HERE IS PENNY KOTTERMAN, PRESIDENT OF THE ARIZONA EDUCATION ASSOCIATION. HELLO TO YOU BOTH.

>> HELLO.

>> MICHAEL: PENNY, WHAT DOES THIS BASELINE DATA TELL US?

>> Penny Kotterman: I THINK IT GIVES US AN ACTUAL REAL BASELINE THAT WE CAN START WITH. I THINK IT AS IMPORTANT THAT THE PUBLIC REALLY UNDERSTANDS THAT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS THE FIRST YEAR OF A LABELING SYSTEM THAT REALLY RELIES FAIRLY HEAVILY ON STUDENT ASSESSMENT AND IT GIVES US INFORMATION THAT WE CAN BUILD UPON TO IMPROVE STUDENT LEARNING AND TEACHING.

>> MICHAEL: BOB, ALL FOUR OF YOUR SCHOOLS UNDERPERFORMING. YOU WERE TELLING ME THAT YOU WERE SURPRISED BY THAT.

>> Bob Donofrio: WELL, YEAH. UNDER THE FEDERAL ADEQUATE YEARLY PROGRESS, WE HAD ONLY ONE SCHOOL IN SCHOOL IMPROVEMENT AND SO WITH THE ARIZONA LEARNS, WE WERE THINKING MAYBE TWO SCHOOLS, POSSIBLY THREE, BUT NOT ALL FOUR.

>> MICHAEL: IS IT FAIR? AS I UNDERSTAND WHAT IS BEING MATCHED HERE, IT'S NOT LIKE MURPHY IS BEING COMPARED TO MESA. IT'S BASICALLY MURPHY BEING COMPARED YEAR TO YEAR MURPHY. CORRECT? AT LEAST, THAT'S THE INTENTION.

>> Bob Donofrio: BUT IT'S STILL BASED ON A BAR THAT YOU MUST MEET. BASED ON THE STATEWIDE AVERAGES. SO IT'S NOT REALLY COMPARING MURPHY TO MURPHY, IT'S COMPARING IT TO WHAT THE MAINTENANCE LINE IS. SO IF YOU FALL BELOW THAT MAINTAINING LINE, THEN YOU'RE UNDERPERFORMING. AND EACH YEAR, UNDER THE FEDERAL REQUIREMENTS, THAT MAINTAINING LINE HAS TO GO UP. SO THOSE SCHOOLS THAT ARE NOW UNDERPERFORMING WILL NOT ONLY HAVE TO MAKE UP THE ACHIEVEMENT GAP THIS YEAR, BUT HAVE TO MEET AS THE BAR RAISES UNDER THE FEDERAL LEAVE NO CHILD BEHIND.

>> MICHAEL: PENNY, IS THAT YOUR UNDERSTANDING AS WELL? BECAUSE I UNDERSTOOD DAVID GARCIA TO SAY LAST NIGHT IN DESCRIBING BASICALLY THE APPROACH THAT IT WAS IF YOU WERE IN THE 20TH PERCENTILE YOU WERE JUDGED AGAINST THE, MOVING UP FROM THE 20TH PERCENTILE OR THE 80TH PERCENTILE.

>> Penny Kotterman: BOB'S REFERRING TO, I THINK, THE PRIMARY WAY THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES THEIR RANKING. YOU HAVE TWO SYSTEMS IN ARIZONA AT THE MOMENT. THE ARIZONA LEARNS SYSTEM COMPARES YOU TO A STATEWIDE AVERAGE WHICH IS YOUR BASELINE DATA, BUT IT ALSO MEASURES PROGRESS TOWARDS THAT. SO IF YOU ARE UNDER THAT AVERAGE BUT YOU ARE MAKING PROGRESS TOWARD THAT, YOU WOULD BE, FOR INSTANCE, AN IMPROVING SCHOOL. SO YOU'RE BOTH MEASURED AGAINST THE STATEWIDE AVERAGE AND EXPECTATIONS AND THEN THAT'S WHY THE BASELINE DATA IS SO IMPORTANT BECAUSE THIS YEAR YOU HAVE THIS MEASUREMENT THAT IS CALCULATED WITH A VARIETY OF FACTORS AND THEN THIS YEAR OF IMPROVEMENT GIVES YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEMONSTRATE IMPROVEMENT TOWARDS REACHING THAT GOAL AND THAT WILL GIVE YOU YOUR NEXT RATING. SO IT'S FAIRLY COMPLEX. I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR PEOPLE TO REMEMBER IS THIS IS THE FIRST YEAR WE'VE DONE THIS. SCHOOLS HAVE A YEAR TO ACTUALLY, THEY SHOULD HAVE TWO YEAR BUT BECAUSE OF THE TIME LINES IN THE STATUTE, THAT HAS BEEN DRASTICALLY REDUCED. SO SCHOOLS REALLY HAVE ABOUT A YEAR, LESS THAN THAT ACTUALLY, TO MAKE PROGRESS TOWARDS GOALS FOR NEXT YEAR.

>> MICHAEL: BOB, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, STEP ONE IN THAT PROCESS IS FIRST TO NOTIFY THE PARENTS OF YOUR DISTRICT OF WHAT YOUR SCHOOL'S RESULTS WERE?

>> Bob Donofrio: WE'VE ALREADY STARTED THE PROCESS. BY NOVEMBER 15TH, YOU MUST NOTIFY ALL PARENTS THAT YOU'RE AN UNDERPERFORMING SCHOOL. YOU MUST ALSO PROVIDE THEM WITH AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO A NON-, TO A SCHOOL THAT IS NOT UNDERPERFORMING AND PROVIDE TRANSPORTATION. AND IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY SCHOOLS THAT AREN'T UNDERPERFORMING, THEN CERTAINLY THEY CAN TAKE AVAILABILITY OF ARIZONA'S OPEN ENROLLMENT POLICY, BUT THE DISTRICT THEN IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR TRANSPORTATION.

>> MICHAEL: ALL RIGHT. STEP TWO IS TO FORMULATE A PLAN, CORRECT?

>> Bob Donofrio: CORRECT.

>> MICHAEL: GIVE ME A WORKING IDEA OF WHAT A PLAN MIGHT BE.

>> Bob Donofrio: I THINK, YOU KNOW, FOR THE PUBLIC, MOST PEOPLE THINK THAT SCHOOLS HAVEN'T BEEN OPERATING, THE WHOLE 17 YEARS THAT I'VE BEEN IN MURPHY AS A SUPERINTENDENT, I'VE BEEN THERE 28 YEARS, WE'VE HAD SCHOOLS ON SCHOOL IMPROVEMENT PLANS. WE CALL THEM SCHOOL CONSOLIDATION PLANS. OUR DISTRICT HAS HAD A STRATEGIC PLAN. AND BASICALLY, IT OUTLINES THE GOALS. AND OUR NUMBER ONE GOAL IS TO INCREASE STUDENT POPULATION. SETS OUT OBJECTIVES OF HOW YOU'RE GOING TO GO ABOUT DOING THAT. ACTIVITIES, AND METHODS FOR EVALUATION. SO IT'S A PLAN.

>> MICHAEL: HOW DOES IT FOCUS, THOUGH, ON IMPROVING STUDENT PERFORMANCE?

>> Bob Donofrio: FOR EXAMPLE, IN OUR PLAN SEVERAL YEARS AGO, WE SAID THAT WE WOULD IMPLEMENT A TWO HOUR LANGUAGE ARTS BLOCK IN THE MORNING. TO FOCUS ON RESEARCH THAT SAYS THAT THE EARLY MORNING HOURS ARE THE MOST PRODUCTIVE FOR LEARNING AND SO WE'RE NOW, EVERY ONE OF OUR SCHOOLS ARE REQUIRED TO HAVE THIS TWO HOUR LANGUAGE ARTS BLOCK. AND OUR PLAN MIGHT BE THAT ANY, THAT WE'RE GOING TO CONCENTRATE A LOT OF OUR MONIES BEFORE SCHOOL AND AFTER SCHOOL IN THE AREA OF AIMS INTERVENTION, IN READING AND MATH. SO THOSE KINDS OF STRATEGIES, PROGRAMS, SERVICES WOULD BE WRITTEN INTO YOUR PLAN AND THEN YOU GO ABOUT IMPLEMENTING IT AND EVALUATING TO SEE IF IT'S EFFECTIVE.

>> MICHAEL: PENNY, WHEN I ASKED DAVID GARCIA ABOUT A POSSIBLE PLAN LAST NIGHT, HE SAID WELL, LET'S SAY YOU HAVE A READING DEFICIENCY, DO YOU MOVE THREE MORE TEACHERS THERE, HE SAID, NOT NECESSARILY. HE SAID WHAT YOU MIGHT DO IS ENHANCE TEACHER DEVELOPMENT AND TEACHER TRAINING AS A RESPONSE TO THAT. DO YOU AGREE?

>> Penny Kotterman: I THINK THERE ARE A NUMBER OF RESPONSES. THE DATA THAT COMES BACK FROM THE AIMS ASSESSMENT AND THE STANFORD NINE GIVES YOU SOME SIGNIFICANT DATA TO LOOK AT YOUR STRENGTHS AND WEAKNESSES FOR YOUR SCHOOLS. IT'S SO IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS NOT AN INDICTMENT OF THE WORK FOR INSTANCE THAT THEY HAVE BEEN DOING IN MURPHY. THERE ARE WONDERFUL TEACHERS THERE, I AM SURE, WORKING VERY, VERY HARD ALL OF THE TIME. THIS GIVES US AN OPPORTUNITY, I THINK, TO FOCUS THE INSTRUCTIONAL STRATEGIES, TECHNIQUES, PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT, RESOURCES IN THOSE AREAS WHERE THE SCHOOLS ARE HAVING THE MOST DIFFICULT TIME. SO IT COULD BE PROFESSIONAL DEVELOPMENT IN A PARTICULAR INSTRUCTIONAL STRATEGY. IT COULD BE AFTER SCHOOL PROGRAMS, IT COULD BE INTERVENTION PROGRAMS AT THE EARLY AGES. IT COULD BE LANGUAGE DEVELOPMENT, IF IT'S MATHEMATICS IT COULD BE SOME KIND OF TUTORING. ANY OF THOSE OR ALL OF THOSE MIGHT BE APPROPRIATE FOR A PARTICULAR SCHOOL AND IT WILL VARY FROM PLACE TO PLACE.

>> Michael: WOULD YOU REDIRECT BOB, PERHAPS, SOME OF THE SALES TAX MONIES AS YOU FORMULATE THIS PLAN TO TRY TO SHORE UP WHATEVER YOU PERCEIVE TO BE THE DEFICIENCIES AND THE HOPE FOR IMPROVEMENT?

>> Bob Donofrio: WELL, I MEAN, WELL-DESERVED. BUT THE SALES TAX MONEY, ABOUT 60 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR IS ALREADY COMMITTED TO TEACHERS' SALARIES. BY THE INITIATIVE ITSELF. THAT LEAVES ONLY THE LAST 40% AND MOST DISTRICTS ARE COMMITTING AT LEAST A PORTION OF THOSE FUNDS TOWARDS TEACHER SALARIES. SO IT DOESN'T LEAVE US WITH A WHOLE LOT OF MONEY TO REDIRECT. HOWEVER, WE MIGHT LOOK AT WHERE WE'RE SPENDING NON-SALES TAX MONEY AND LOOK AT REDIRECTING SOME OF THAT MONEY INTO AREAS THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT WE HAVE WEAKNESSES IN BASED ON THESE AIMS SCORES.

>> MICHAEL: PENNY, IF SCHOOLS ARE UNDERPERFORMING TWO YEARS IN A ROW, THEY THEN MOVE INTO THE FAILING CATEGORY AND A TEAM OF EXPERTS COME IN FROM THE STATE. WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> Penny Kotterman: THAT'S THE SOLUTIONS TEAM. I'VE BEEN WORKING ACTUALLY WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF ED ON PILOTING THOSE SOLUTIONS TEAMS THIS FALL. I THINK THEY OFFER A GREAT PROMISE. BUT THE PROCESS IS LENGTHY, TAKES ABOUT THREE DAYS. IT DOES INCLUDE PEOPLE FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, FROM THE NORTH CENTRAL ACCREDITATION AND SOME CLASSROOM TEACHERS. SO THAT YOU GO IN, YOU ACTUALLY DO CLASSROOM OBSERVATION, INTERVIEW PARENTS, TALK WITH TEACHERS, TALK WITH THE ADMINISTRATORS, LOOK AT THE SCHOOL AND PERMANENT PLANS THAT ARE ALREADY IN PLACE. LOOK AT THE DATA THAT THEY HAVE AND HELP THEM DEVISE STRATEGIES THAT WILL MOVE THEM FORWARD.

>> MICHAEL: AT LEAST THE HOPE HERE BEING A FRESH EYE MAY HELP?

>> Penny Kotterman: ABSOLUTELY. THEN YOU HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PROVIDE SOME TECHNICAL ASSISTANCE OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEAR TO HELP THEM WITH THINGS THAT THEY THINK ARE IMPORTANT.

>> MICHAEL: PENNY KOTTERMAN, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> Penny Kotterman: YOU'RE WELCOME.

>> MICHAEL: BOB DONOFRIO, APPRECIATE YOUR INPUT, AS WELL.

>>> OVER THE PAST MONTH, "HORIZON" HAS PROFILED THE THREE GAMING INITIATIVES ON NOVEMBER'S BALLOT. IN A MOMENT I'LL TALK TO A COUPLE OF GUESTS WHO WANT PEOPLE TO VOTE "NO" ON ALL THREE. BUT FIRST, PAUL ATKINSON LOOKS AT HOW PAST INCREASES IN GAMING RESULTED IN MORE GAMBLING ADDICTS.

>> Paul Atkinson, REPORTER: THREE INITIATIVES ON THE NOVEMBER BALLOT WILL EXPAND GAMBLING IN ARIZONA. PROPOSITIONS 200, 201, AND 202 ADD MORE SLOT MACHINES, MORE POKER TABLES AND WILL ADD MORE PEOPLE TO THE RANKS OF COMPULSIVE GAMBLERS.

>> Don Hulen: WITH THE AVAILABILITY OF MORE TYPES OF GAMBLING AVAILABLE, AND THAT NOT ONLY INCLUDES, I MIGHT ADD, THE CASINOS, OFF TRACK BETTING, CERTAINLY MORE MACHINES THROUGHOUT THE STATE, MORE SPORTING EVENTS, MORE ADVERTISING FROM NEVADA, MORE GAMBLING FROM THE LOTTERY, NOW THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT ADDING PULL TABS, THEY ALREADY HAVE A $10 GAME ON THE LOTTERY. THE MORE ADVERTISING, THE MORE PEOPLE THAT AVAIL THEMSELVES TO GAMBLING, THE MORE PEOPLE THAT ARE GOING TO HAVE PREDISPOSING FACTORS AND CROSS THE LINE FROM RECREATION INTO ADDICTION.

>> REPORTER: GAMBLING HAS BEEN A POPULAR PAST TIME IN ARIZONA SINCE TOMBSTONE WAS THE WEST'S LARGEST CITY IN THE 1870'S. BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL 100 YEARS LATER THAT ADDICTION TO GAMBLING WAS RECOGNIZED AND DEALT WITH THROUGH THE 12-STEP PROGRAM GAMBLERS ANONYMOUS.

>> Don Hulen: FROM 1970 THROUGH 1991, THERE WERE ONLY MEN IN GAMBLERS ANONYMOUS. THEY ALMOST ALL GAMBLED AT HORSES, DOGS, BLACKJACK, CARD GAMES, SPORTS BETTING, THOSE SORTS OF GAMES.

>> REPORTER: IN THE 199 0'S, WOMEN JOINED THE RANKS OF COMPULSIVE GAMBLERS WITH THE POPULARITY OF SOCIAL GAMBLING HALLS. STATE OF ARIZONA ALSO PLAYED A ROLE.

>> Don Hulen: UNTIL THE ARIZONA LOTTERY STARTED IN 1980, IT WASN'T SOCIALLY ACCEPTABLE FOR WOMEN AND CHILDREN TO GAMBLE, IT WAS JUST NOT ACCEPTABLE. IT DIDN'T TAKE LONG BEFORE IT WAS NOT ONLY NOT ACCEPTABLE BUT IT WAS ALMOST UNAMERICAN NOT TO GAMBLE AT THE LOTTERY. EVERYBODY WINS.

>> REPORTER: INDIAN GAMING MADE THINGS WORSE. THE NUMBER OF WEEKLY GAMBLERS ANONYMOUS MEETINGS IN ARIZONA GREW FROM ABOUT FIVE PRIOR TO INDIAN GAMING TO ABOUT 50 IN 1998.

>> Don Hulen: WE CERTAINLY HAD AN INCREASE IN GAMBLING, PROBLEM GAMBLING, BUT ALONG WITH THAT WE HAD AN INCREASE IN PROBLEM GAMBLING WITH EACH TIME THE PARIMUTUEL INDUSTRY OPENED ANOTHER OFF TRACK BETTING FACILITY. EACH TIME THE ARIZONA LOTTERY INTRODUCED ANOTHER GAME.

>> REPORTER: THE EXPANSION OF GAMBLING HAS SOME RESIDENTS WHO LIVE NEAR TURF PARADISE WORRIED ABOUT THE IMPACT OF ONE GAMING INITIATIVE, PROPOSITION 201 WHICH WOULD ALLOW RACE TRACKS TO HAVE HUNDREDS OF SLOT MACHINES.

>> Peggy Bilsten: IF 201 IS SUCCESSFUL, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A CASINO SEVEN DAYS A WEEK, TONS OF TRAFFIC, ALL KIND OF CRIME AND RESEARCH SHOWS THAT ANY PLACE YOU HAVE A CASINO, NOT JUST GAMBLING, BUT A CASINO, SLOT MACHINES, YOU HAVE SUCH A TREMENDOUS INCREASE OF CRIME AND CORRUPTION IN THAT NEIGHBORHOOD. THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE HERE, THEY NEVER ONCE SIGNED UP FOR SLOT MACHINES. THEY KNEW THERE WOULD BE RACING BUT VERY SEASONAL AND VERY, VERY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT'S ABOUT TO HAPPEN.

>> REPORTER: PROPOSITION 201 SUPPORTERS POINT OUT THAT RACE TRACKS SUCH AS TURF PARADISE HAVE BEEN GOOD NEIGHBORS AND HAVE KEPT CRIME FROM BEING A PROBLEM.

>> Tom Bartol: WE WANT TO TAKE CARE OF IT AND WE WANT TO HAVE EVERYBODY AROUND US HAPPY. BUT THERE'S QUITE A BUFFER ZONE. OUR PARKING LOTS AND STUFF ARE FAIRLY SUBSTANTIAL ALREADY AND LIKE AT TURF PARADISE, THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF ROOM AND THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF BUFFER BETWEEN THAT AND HOUSING.

>> REPORTER: IT'S NOT JUST ONE PROPOSITION GAMBLING OPPONENTS WANT VOTERS TO REJECT, THEIR GOAL IS TO GET PEOPLE TO VOTE NO ON ALL THREE GAMING INITIATIVES.

>> MICHAEL: HERE NOW IS LEN MUNCIL, PRESIDENT OF THE CENTER FOR ARIZONA POLICY. AND WILL CARDONE, PRESIDENT OF THE GROUP FORMED TO OPPOSE THE GAMING INITIATIVE, IT IS A BAD DEAL DOT COM. DID YOU NAME THE GROUP AFTER THE WEBSITE OR THE WEBSITE AFTER THE GROUP, WILL?

>> Wil Cardon: EITHER WAY, IT WORKS.

>> MICHAEL: WHY SHOULD PEOPLE VOTE NO ON ALL THREE, 200, 201 AND 202?

>> Wil Cardon: WE FOUND THAT AS WE INITIALLY FORMED THIS GROUP, WE WENT OUT LOOKING FOR PEOPLE WHO WERE GOING TO OPPOSE ALL THREE. I THOUGHT OUR INITIAL PURPOSE WOULD BE TO INFORM PEOPLE WHAT A BAD DEAL AS WE READ THROUGH THESE INITIATIVES, EACH OF THEM HAVE BAD DEALS. BUT THE RIGHT NOW WE FIND OURSELVES IN A ROLE JUST EDUCATING PEOPLE THAT THE OPTIONS OF VOTING YES ON ONE IS NOT THE ONLY OPTION AVAILABLE. PEOPLE CAN VOTE NO ON ALL THREE PROPOSITIONS. IN FACT, THAT'S THE ONLY OPTION THAT MAINTAINS THE STATUS QUO AND DOESN'T INCREASE GAMING.

>> MICHAEL: LEN, OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE CAN VOTE ANY WAY THEY WANT, INCLUDING NO ON ALL THREE. BUT ISN'T THE STATE OF ARIZONA UNDER AN OBLIGATION UNDER FEDERAL LAW TO NEGOTIATE IN GOOD FAITH WITH THE INDIAN TRIBES?

>> Len Munsil: IT IS. BUT UNDER THE INDIAN GAMING REGULATORY ACT, YEAH, THERE WERE SOME BAD INTERPRETATIONS OF THAT LAW THAT I THINK CAUSED THE THEN GOVERNOR SYMINGTON TO ENTER INTO THE ORIGINAL COMPACT. AFTER A DECISION OUT OF THE 9TH CIRCUIT, THE RUMSEY DECISION, IT BECAME CLEAR THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO ALLOW SLOT MACHINES IN ARIZONA. IN FACT, WE'VE HAD TWO COURT DECISIONS, ONE IN FEDERAL COURT, ONE IN STATE COURT AND THEY SAID THE SAME THING ON THE MERITS, WHICH IS THE GAMBLING HAPPENING NOW IN THESE CASINOS IS ILLEGAL. BOTH OF THEM WERE OVERTURNED ON PROCEDURAL ISSUES AND STANDING ISSUES. EVERY TIME COURTS HAVE LOOKED AT THE MERITS OF THIS, THEY DISCOVER THAT THE GAMBLING THAT GOES ON RIGHT NOW IS AGAINST THE LAW.

>> MICHAEL: AS IT STANDS RIGHT NOW, WE'VE GOT IT. AS I UNDERSTAND IT, IF WE DON'T REPLACE THE COMPACT WITH SOMETHING -- LET'S SAY ALL THREE WENT DOWN, THEY ALL HAVE AUTOMATIC EXTENSION CLAUSES, DON'T THEY?

>> Len Munsil: WELL, THERE'S THE POTENTIAL THAT THEY WOULD WANT TO COME BACK TO THE BARGAINING TABLE. AS WAS POINTED OUT, THE STATUS QUO IS NOT ONE OF THE OPTIONS WE HAD HERE. ALL THREE OF THESE DRAMATICALLY GAMBLING AND WE'RE SAYING THAT THESE ARE NOT A GOOD IDEA. WE KNOW ABOUT THE SOCIAL HARMS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH GAMBLING. NO ONE DENIES THAT. IT'S INTERESTING IN THIS DEBATE, NONE OF THEM COME AFTER THE EVIDENCE OF THE INCREASE IN SUICIDE, THE INCREASE IN BANKRUPTCIES, THE FAMILIES THAT FALL APART, THE DIVORCES THAT OCCUR BECAUSE OF GAMBLING. ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE A GIVEN, THEY'RE ACCEPTED BY EVEN THE PROPONENTS OF THIS. I THINK IT OUGHT TO BE A FUNDAMENTAL RULE OF PUBLIC POLICY THAT YOU DON'T CREATE A WHOLE NEW CATEGORY OF SOCIAL PROBLEMS IN ORDER TO TRY TO SOLVE SOCIAL PROBLEMS THAT EXIST NOW.

>> MICHAEL: BUT WILL, THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS THAT HURT PEOPLE AND THERE'S A LOT OF STUPID THINGS THAT WE DO TO OURSELVES. AND THERE CERTAINLY IS A STRONG SENTIMENT ON SOME OF THOSE THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S OKAY. JUST LEAVE ME ALONE, I DON'T NEED GOVERNMENT TELLING ME WHAT IS GOOD FOR ME. WHY SHOULD GOVERNMENT DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT HERE?

>> Wil Cardon: THAT'S RIGHT, REGARDLESS OF HOW YOU FEEL ON GAMING, THOUGH, THESE THREE ISSUES ARE A TERRIBLE BILL. IF YOU JUST LOOK AT THEM, EACH INITIATIVE TAKES PROBABLY SOME OF THE WORST FROM INDIAN GAMING AROUND THE COUNTRY, NOT THE BEST. FOR INSTANCE, THE BEST PROPOSAL OUT OF THE THREE PROPOSITIONS ONLY GIVES 8% OF NET REVENUES BACK TO THE STATE. THAT'S IF EVERYTHING GOES CORRECTLY, WHICH IS VERY, VERY UNLIKELY. STATES LIKE CONNECTICUT, LIKE NEW YORK HAVE 25% OF GROSS REVENUES COMING BACK, NOT JUST A SMALLER PERCENTAGE, MOST LIKELY LESS THAN 1 TO 3% OF THE NET COMING BACK. NUMBER TWO, THEY ALSO HAVE ONLY A BENEFIT TO LESS THAN ONE -- TO ONE IN FIVE INDIANS IN THE STATE. FOUR OUT OF FIVE INDIANS IN THE STATE WON'T EVEN BENEFIT FROM THESE COMPACTS THAT CAN LAST UP TO 40 YEARS.

>> MICHAEL: WHAT ABOUT THE MACHINE TRANSFER PROVISIONS, THOUGH, INVOLVED IN THOSE 200, 202 ALLOWS THOSE URBAN RICHES TO BE SHARED WITH THE RURAL TRIBES.

>> Wil Cardon: UNFORTUNATELY -- WELL, AS YOU KNOW, THE NAVAJO NATION HAS VOTED TWICE NOT TO HAVE INDIAN GAMING ON THEIR LAND AND THEY REPRESENT THE LARGEST POPULATION OF INDIANS.

>> MICHAEL: THEY COULD TRANSFER THEIR MACHINE RIGHT, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE TO RUN A CASINO ON THE NAVAJO RESERVATION, THEY COULD TRANSFER THEIR MACHINE RIGHTS TO FOR EXAMPLE, GILA, AND GET COMPENSATED FOR THEM.

>> Wil Cardon: CORRECT, THEY COULD. THE PROBLEM WITH THAT IS EACH OF THE PROPOSITIONS YOU POINTED OUT CAN LAST UP TO 40 YEARS. EVEN ABOVE 40 YEARS. WHEN IS THE LAST TIME THAT -- WHAT DID YOU SIGN IN 1962 THAT STILL MAKES SENSE TO YOU? IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE. WE WOULDN'T BE TALKING HERE TODAY IF SOMEONE HADN'T SIGNED A 10 YEAR COMPACT. AND SIGNING SOMETHING THAT LASTS IN PROPOSITION 200, UP TO 30 YEARS, PROPOSITION 202 UP TO 40 YEARS DOESN'T MAKE A LOT OF SENSE.

>> MICHAEL: I'M GETTING A MIXED MESSAGE HERE. IS THE REASON WE SHOULD VOTE NO ON ALL THREE OF THESE IS BECAUSE THEY'RE A BAD DEAL AND WE OUGHT TO NEGOTIATE 20% OR WE OUGHT TO VOTE NO ON ALL THREE BECAUSE IT'S A BAD DEAL SOCIALLY?

>> Len Munsil: I THINK THAT SHOWS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OUR ORGANIZATIONS. I THINK THEIR PERSPECTIVE IS MORE THAT THEY'RE A BAD DEAL. I THINK THAT'S TRUE BUT OUR PERCEPTION IS THAT ANYTHING THAT WOULD PROMOTE AND EXPAND THE SOCIAL HARM OF GAMBLING IN OUR STATE IS A BAD IDEA. WE HAVE HAD TWICE IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHERE WE HAD HUGE EXPANSIONS OF GAMBLING ON BOTH OCCASIONS, ONCE WAS IN THE 18TH CENTURY, AND ONCE WAS IN THE 19TH CENTURY. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ROSE UP AND AFTER SUFFERING THE HARM AND FEELING THE EFFECT ON THEIR COMMUNITIES, THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAID NO MORE. WE HAD THAT PERIOD, YOU KNOW, I GREW UP IN ARIZONA, MY PARENTS AND GRANDPARENTS WERE BORN HERE. THEY GREW UP IN A STATE THAT WAS FREE OF GAMBLING FOR THE MAJORITY OF THEIR LIVES, UP UNTIL IT BEGAN WITH THE LOTTERY IN 1980. AND I DON'T THINK ANY OF US FELT LESS FREE. THE POINT IS WE'RE GOING TO GET THERE AGAIN. THE TIDE IS GOING TO TURN ON THIS ISSUE. WE'RE GOING TO RECOGNIZE HOW HARMFUL THIS IS AND IT'S GOING TO BE ILLEGAL LIKE IT WAS FOR MOST OF OUR LIVES.

>> MICHAEL: DON'T YOU MITIGATE SOME OF THAT CONCERN BY KEEPING IT ON THE RESERVATIONS AS OPPOSED TO BEING A PERVASIVE LAS VEGAS --

>> Len Munsil: WHEN YOU LOOK AT HOW CLOSE IT IS TO METRO AREAS LIKE PHOENIX AND TUCSON, THE PLACES WHERE IT'S MOST PROFITABLE WHEN IT'S CLOSEST TO METRO REGIONS SO I DON'T KNOW THAT THAT MAKES A WHOLE LOT OF DIFFERENCE. IT'S RIGHT THERE. THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HAVING TO GO TO LAS VEGAS FOR THE WEEKEND VERSUS HAVING IT AVAILABLE TO YOU EVERY DAY AND EVERY NIGHT IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT WHEN IT COMES TO THE ISSUE OF GAMBLING ADDICTION.

>> MICHAEL: ALL RIGHT. STILL, THOUGH, IT IS A LITTLE BIT REMOVED. I HAVE TO DRIVE TO IT, I JUST CAN'T GO TO MY CIRCLE K.

>> Len Munsil: BUT IT'S THERE FOR YOU EVERY DAY, EVERY NIGHT. SO FOR A GAMBLING ADDICT, IT'S MUCH DIFFERENT THAN LAS VEGAS. THE HUGE QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUE FOR US IN ARIZONA, WE DIDN'T SIGN UP FOR THIS, THE PEOPLE WHO MOVED TO THE STATE IN DROVES DID NOT MOVE TO LAS VEGAS.

>> MICHAEL: LEN MUNCIL, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US. WE'RE OUT OF TIME. WILL CARDONE, GOOD TO SEE YOU. BEST OF LUCK, GENTLEMEN. A LANDMARK SERIES CONTINUES TONIGHT HERE ON CHANNEL 8. IT IS CALLED THE RISE AND FALL OF JIM CROW. IT EXPLORED SEGREGATION FROM THE END OF THE CIVIL WAR TO THE MODERN CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT. HERE IS A PREVIEW OF TONIGHT'S EPISODE.

>> ON THE RISE AND FALL OF JIM CROW. BLACK WALL STREET AND A CITY BURNED TO THE GROUND.

>> THE MIGHT BEHIND JIM CROW.

>> AND LYNCHINGS GROW IN NUMBERS.

>> THERE WAS A MAN WHO RISKED HIS LIFE GOING AMONG THE LYNCHERS.

>> THE STRUGGLE AGAINST JIM CROW GAINS MOMENTUM. THINGS BEGIN TO CHANGE. BUT DON'T SHOUT TOO SOON.

>> MICHAEL: TONIGHT'S SHOW CHRONICLES THE WORK OF THREE MEN IN THE YEARS BETWEEN WORLD WARS I AND II. ONE OF THOSE MEN, CHARLES HAMILTON HOUSTON, DESIGNED AND SUCCESSFULLY APPLIED A LEGAL STRATEGY THAT CHALLENGED JIM CROW AND RESULTED IN THE FAMOUS BROWN VERSUS BOARD OF EDUCATION DECISION WHICH DESEGREGATED PUBLIC SCHOOLS. ONE MAN HAS A SPECIAL INTEREST IN TONIGHT'S PROGRAM, HE IS CHARLES HOUSTON. A PHOENIX ATTORNEY. AND THE GRANDSON OF CHARLES HAMILTON HOUSTON. CHARLES, IT'S A PLEASURE TO MEET YOU.

>> Charles Houston: THANK YOU.

>> MICHAEL: WHAT SORT OF STORIES DID YOU HEAR ABOUT YOUR GRANDFATHER AS YOU GREW UP? HE DIED BEFORE YOU WERE BORN?

>> Charles Houston: HE ACTUALLY PASSED WHEN MY FATHER WAS A CHILD, SO OF COURSE I NEVER MET HIM. BUT I'VE HEARD LOTS OF DIFFERENT STORIES FROM LOTS OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE. THERE ARE PEOPLE, I'VE HAD PEOPLE COME UP TO ME, PEOPLE WHO ARE 70, 80 YEARS OLD AND SHAKE MY HAND AND TELL ME AN HONOR IT IS TO MEET ME BECAUSE OF THE THINGS THAT MY GRANDFATHER DID FOR THEM AND FOR THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE. THERE ARE YOUNGER PEOPLE, PEOPLE WHO ATTEND HARVARD UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL WHERE MY GRANDFATHER TAUGHT AND WAS DEAN, WHO ALSO COME UP TO ME AND SHAKE MY HAND AND THANK ME FOR THE THINGS THAT DID. AND IT'S A VERY HUMBLING EXPERIENCE BECAUSE, OF COURSE, I HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING. BUT IT'S ALSO JUST NICE TO KNOW THAT HE MADE SUCH A DIFFERENCE IN SO MANY PEOPLE'S LIVES.

>> MICHAEL: A TRULY GREAT INTELLECT. PHI BETA KAPPA UNDERGRADUATE, FIRST BLACK EDITOR OF THE HARVARD LAW REVIEW. LET ME ASK YOU TO FAST FORWARD, THOUGH, TO 1935. AND HE TAKES OVER AS SPECIAL COUNSEL OF THE NAACP. IT'S AT THAT POINT IN TIME THAT HE REALLY STARTS FORMULATING THE STRATEGY THAT ULTIMATELY WILL LEAD TO BROWN V BOARD OF EDUCATION ALMOST TWO DECADES LATER.

>> Charles Houston: THAT'S EXACTLY RIGHT. THE STRATEGY THAT HE DEVELOPED WAS TO SORT OF TAKE THE SEPARATE BUT EQUAL DOCTRINE THAT WAS HANDED DOWN BY THE SUPREME COURT IN 1885 AND FOCUS ON THE EQUAL PORTION OF THAT DOCTRINE. THE WAY TO DO THAT WAS TO SHOW THAT THE FACILITIES THAT WERE SEPARATE, THE FACILITIES THAT WERE PROVIDED TO BLACKS IN THIS COUNTRY WERE FAR INFERIOR TO THOSE PROVIDED TO WHITES. AND IT WAS THE DIFFERENCE WAS, THE DIFFERENCES WERE DRASTIC AND JUST VERY EASILY DEMONSTRABLE. HE TOURED THE COUNTRY TAKING VIDEOTAPES OF THE BLACK SCHOOLS AND HE DID ALL SORTS OF STUDIES TO DOCUMENT AND PROVE INFERIORITY OF THE BLACK SCHOOLS.

>> MICHAEL: AND FOCUSED REALLY ON THE COLLEGE AND GRADUATION EXPERIENCE IN PART IN THE FEELING JUSTICES AND JUDGES WOULD BETTER UNDERSTANDING THAT.

>> Charles Houston: THAT'S RIGHT. THE ULTIMATE GOAL OF HIS STRATEGY WAS THE DESEGREGATION OF SCHOOLS, OF ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS. BUT HE DECIDED TO START AT THE GRADUATE SCHOOL AND THE COLLEGE LEVEL, TO START THE DESEGREGATION EFFORTS THERE FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. ONE, BECAUSE GIVEN THE COUNTRY'S ATTITUDES TOWARDS RACE AT THE TIME, IT WAS, HE KNEW IT WAS GOING TO BE IMPOSSIBLE TO GET PEOPLE TO SORT OF UNDERSTAND THAT SEPARATE WAS WRONG. HE KNEW THAT IT WAS GOING TO BE IMPOSSIBLE TO MAKE PEOPLE SEE THAT THE VERY THING EDUCATION MEANS TO ALL OF US.

>> MICHAEL: SURE. AT THE ELEMENTARY GRADES IT'S A MORE EMOTIONAL, MORE CLOSE KIND OF EXPERIENCE.

>> Charles Houston: THERE IS GOING TO BE MUCH LESS REACTION FROM SORT OF THE PUBLIC AT LARGE. IT'S ONE THING TO HAVE YOUR COLLEGE AGE CHILDREN ATTENDING DE SEGREGATED SCHOOLS, IT'S QUITE ANOTHER AT LEAST IN AMERICA'S MIND AT THE TIME, TO HAVE YOUR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL AGE CHILDREN ATTENDING INTEGRATED SCHOOLS.

>> MICHAEL: CHARLES HOUSTON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO THE SPECIAL TONIGHT.

>> Charles Houston: THANK YOU.

>> MICHAEL: THE RISE AND FALL OF JIM CROW. THAT'S TONIGHT AT 10:00 P.M. HERE ON CHANNEL 8. TOMORROW ON "HORIZON," ANOTHER "HORIZON" AD WATCH, LOOKING AT ADS FOR CANDIDATES FOR DISTRICT ONE CONGRESSIONAL SEAT. ALSO ON WEDNESDAY WE'LL MEET THE AIR TEENAGER NAMED THE ARIZONA BOYS AND GIRLS CLUB YOUTH OF THE YEAR. THEN ON THURSDAY, A CLOSER LOOK AT THE DISTRICT ONE CONGRESSIONAL RACE BETWEEN GEORGE CORDOVA AND RICK RENZI. THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS TUESDAY EVENING. I'M MICHAEL GRANT. HAVE A PLEASANT ONE. GOOD NIGHT.