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November 22, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
The Journalists Roundtable
In-Studio Guests:
Robbie Sherwood, Arizona Republic;
Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services;
Doug MacEachern, Arizona Republic

>> Michael: It's Friday November 22nd, 2002. In the headlines this week, state lawmakers preparing to return to the capitol on Monday for a special session to deal with the budget crisis. Racetrack owners went to court this week in an effort to stop Governor Hull from signing the new voter approved gaming compacts and governor-elect Janet Napolitano announced some of her new appointees today. Good evening. I'm Michael Grant and this is the journalists roundtable. Joining me to talk about these and other stories, Robbie Sherwood of the "Arizona Republic," Howard Fischer from Capitol Media Services, and Doug MacEachern of the "Arizona Republic". Governor Hull announced this week she's calling a special session of the legislature Monday to deal with the budget crisis. Robbie, what do you think is going to happen when lawmakers show up Monday?

>> Robbie Sherwood: I think it's all going to go swimmingly, they're going to come in, present a package, they're all going to vote yes and will be out in one day. Or... it's all going to fall apart at the seams. We're going to be stuck here through the holidays. And nothing good will come of it. They say they have the votes --

>> Howard Fischer: They pay you for that kind of advice?

>> >> Michael: This is good. This is kind of insight people have come to expect from this show.

>> Robbie Sherwood: Actually, I'm more of -- I think more the latter part. I think that they'll have a hard time coming to an agreement on a substantial portion of the package, although I think that there's about 120 million dollars in agency cuts that the governor ordered up. I think they could probably get enough votes for that. There is a tobacco tax they passed for $50 million. They can get enough votes for that. But there's other things, like fund sweeps and revenue bonding that the Senate would like to do, that the house is saying no deal on, and the problem is it's a $500 million problem. So whatever -- what they agree on, and they will agree on something at the end of the day, is not going to come close to solving the problem.

>> Howard Fischer: The other part of the problem becomes while everyone agrees that you need to have some spending cuts, there are some house Democrats saying, but we're also cutting programs that are important us to, the elderly hotline, RUCO funding and they say why should we cooperate with a special session if the main purpose of this is simply to cut and not do the things we want to do? They want to add revenues to the mix. You can do that by revenue bonding, which basically freeze up $100 million. You can do that with a tax on Medicaid providers, which raises about $25. You can do that with taking money set aside for the ladwig taxpayer lawsuit settlement, and you can find other Nichols and dimes you can pull into there as temporary sweeps.

>> Michael: But the house, Doug, basically is saying lot of those things is exacerbating the problem for the future. They're facing maybe a billion-dollar issue in January. You know this, thing keeps running on -- it's like a closed loop, because -- I think this is the same conflict that we had this time last year.

>> Doug MacEachern: It's really scary when you think about it in terms of next year, and when they still contend they'll be looking at a billion-dollar deficit then and right now they're looking at such things as skimming off the top of funds for cleaning up gas storage tanks. It's incomprehensible to imagine where they will find room to cut when they have already tapped into those things.

>> Robbie Sherwood: I still don't understand the house opposition to bonding, to that sort of debt, which is common in a lot of different governments and which Arizona is doing right now. With prop 301 last year, the education -- two years ago with the education sales tax. The first $40 million goes to an $850 million bond to build -- to repair dilapidated schools. The problem is that's a billion-dollar problem. So there is this $250 million still out there, and they have a 2003 deadline and all governor is asking that they borrow that money as well, just like all the rest of the money they are using for the project.

>> Michael: I think it's, Howie, a flash point on bonding.

>> Howard Fischer: That's a piece of it. The question of whether we move to a pay as you go basis with students first four years ago, but the other part is, truth be told, when you take a look at that bonding proposal, they're not only bonding for the money they need, they want to borrow another 100 million to help bail out the general fund, and the question is, does it make -- it may make sense to borrow money for bricks and mortar, or for school repairs, it doesn't make sense to borrow money to pay current debt. That's like mortgaging the house to pay your visa bill.

>> Robbie Sherwood: Yeah, that doesn't work. But clearly for buildings and repairs, that's standard.

>> Michael: Robbie, one of the other things I guess I have some difficulty understanding the opposition to is this premium tax, because the federal government would pay the vast majority of it.

>> Robbie Sherwood: If they could find another word for it, like fee or something like that, maybe they would have a little better luck, but the fact is it's characterized technically as a tax increase because it's a tax on insurance premiums that private insurers pay, but that the federal government, Medicare, is exempted from. But is reportedly willing to pay in other states. So if they apply that tax, they can pull down federal money. But it's technically a tax increase, it needs a two-thirds majority so it has problems in the legislature.

>> Michael: Now, have they agreed that cuts on juvenile corrections are off the table?

>> Robbie Sherwood: They have. Juvenile corrections is in a situation where they have more juveniles than they have room to correct them. So it's one of those situations you find common in Arizona where you have a court order saying you can't cut, go any lower.

>> Doug MacEachern: People in the department of corrections are pretty optimistic. They are not only breathing a sigh of relief over the fact they've salvaged or kept that cut from happening, they're also looking for a $2.3 million increase, I think, to cover the --

>> Michael: To restore --

>> Howard Fischer: That's going to be more difficult. See, the problem is once you open this door, and Robbie has seen this a lot out at the capital, once one group gets something, then the next step -- start off with the department of corrections being exempt. Then it became the department of juvenile corrections. Today in the Republican caucus they said, wait a second, what about the courts? They pay the probation officers. And if the probation officers can't keep the guys on the street, we have to put them back in jail at 22,000 a year.

>> Robbie Sherwood: It's also not helping the situation that governor-elect Janet Napolitano has now come out and said what you want to take from the Attorney General's office is a little too steep. The wheels are off this thing. It's going to fall apart. Then senator David Peterson,a conservative Republican, says, oh, wow, these cuts are going to hurt treasurer's office.

>> Howard Fischer: Everybody has a horror story.

>> Michael: Doug, the courts seem to be building a pretty compelling story that so much of their budget goes to probation services that they don't have a lot left over to whack from. Interesting issue. I mean, this Supreme Court telling the legislature, you know, we're another branch of government. We don't have enough money to fulfill our constitutional responsibilities. They could, I suppose, start hurling their WRITS next year.

>> Doug MacEachern: They've been down that road before. There's been a constant argument, as a matter of fact, between the courts and the legislature over just what is constitutionally appropriate for the court to do their job.

>>Howard Fischer: Here's the problem. The courts have been on both sides of this. 20 years ago Cochise County presiding judge Tony deadens said he wanted money from the board of supervisor, the board said no, and the Supreme Court said, give it to him. It was always assumed if the judge says he needs it, that's fine. You may remember six or seven years ago in Maricopa County they told the presiding judge, no, you're going to work with your board of supervisors. Given the current makeup of the court, I don't see three justices of this court saying, we're going to order the legislature to give us X amount of dollars. Now, they may find some other creative way of of doing it, but I don't see the kind of order they did 20 years ago in Cochise.

>> Robbie Sherwood: The courts have the proposal they gave governor her hull early earlier this year to bring in more revenue, basically chasing down people who owe fines and --

>> Michael: That's right.

>> Robbie Sherwood: And judgments, but would it take an investment in technology that's just not going to happen under this scenario.

>> Michael: All right. So, Monday, let me return to the opening question here, Robbie --

>> Robbie Sherwood: Why didn't I answer --

>> Michael: We got -- I think your answers were kum ba yah or total chaos, but you were leaning toward total chaos.

>> Robbie Sherwood: I'm a cynic. These one-day special sessions never seem to last one day. I don't have the experience of some of my colleagues here, but in my limited experience, they never seem to last one day.

>> Howard Fischer: But the problem they're facing is the closer you get to Thanksgiving, the more people go off on vacation, and if you need -- at the very least you need 16 and 31 to get it out. If you want to do some of the other proposals, you need 20 and 40. You start losing bodies, it falls apart.

>> Michael: Can't you lap -- why can't you lap to the week of December 2nd?

>> Howard Fischer: Curiously enough, the way -- you run into two problems. One is legal. I don't think you can recess more than three days without coming back. The second is if they stay is session for seven days, that means they collect per diem for seven days and there's nothing like annoying the public that lawmakers couldn't reach a deal so they'll collect thousands of dollars a day to not come in.

>> Michael: Racetrack owners filed a lawsuit to prevent Governor Hull from signing new compacts. The tracks were in court, or should I say courts, today, Howie. What happened?

>> Howard Fischer: Well, the first court they went to was Maricopa County Superior Court where they talked to judge Bob Myers and they said, here's the deal. We have some serious legal questions about proposition 202. Comes down to three issues. Number one is an equal protection issue. Can you allow the Indians to gamble on reservations when you don't allow it to anyone else. Number two, can you Grant the Indians a monopoly on gaming. Number three, kind of a funny legal issue of can you give up the 23 years your rights to police and change the laws on gambling? Bob Myers looked at it, said, look, I don't think you're ever going to succeed, so I'm not going to issue a restraining order to stop the governor from signing gaming compacts which she intends to do perhaps this Monday. Within the last two hours, Neil wake was at the Court of Appeals and talked to an aide to judge Cecil Patterson, they have a hearing set up for 11:30 on Monday. The interesting thing is Monday they canvas the votes. Monday is the day it becomes official that Jane Hull can sign new gaming compacts, so it's going to be a rush to see whether the Court of Appeals and eventually the Supreme Court can act before the governor does whatever she is going to do.

>> Michael: Assuming the Court of Appeals would not Grant some sort of stay relief, what time did you say, 10:30 --

>> Howard Fischer: 11:30. It's supposed to canvas the votes at two clock.

>> Michael: So you have to get to the Supreme Court, which is just a come of flights up, but you have to get to them in a more meaningful way in about two hours?

>> Howard Fischer: Well, you have to at least get to a duty justice and say, your honor, there would be irreparable harm to us if she signs this, but if you just give us a stay even for two days while you guys get to look it a, there's no irreparable harm to the state. That's the issue. What Neil wake really wants is to hold the whole thing in abeyance until he fully lit gates and it that could make months if not years.

>> Robbie Sherwood: Seems to me that -- what are his chances on this? It seems the voters said this stuff is fine with them. They're not a judge. It sounds like he has fired his bullet and now he is throwing guns.

>> Howard Fischer: That's the problem is -- look, if the voters of this state were to say that everyone had to wear underwear on their head, that would not make it legal, constitutional or even very tasty.

>> Michael: If it was pink underwear, it wouldn't be tasteful.

>> Doug MacEachern: The judge did seem to be putting a lot of weight behind the fact that vote hears spoken on the issue.

>> Howard Fischer: Understood, but I think at the risk of criticizing a sitting judge on television, I think he perhaps missed the point. Simple approval of prop 202 did -- it ended one problem that had existed before, the separation of powers issue. Did the governor have the power. Well, very clearly 202 gave her the power to sign these gaming compacts but it still doesn't resolve the issue, even if voters said we only want Indian reservation gambling, it still doesn't mean constitutionally she can do that.

>> Michael: Doug, the tracks had gone out of their way to say well we're really not opposed to tribal gaming.

>> Doug MacEachern: No, we love tribal gaming.

>> Michael: In fact, we gamble ourselves. At tribal casinos. I don't know, what do you think, do you think this lawsuit sort of weakens --

>> Doug MacEachern: The message I got from speaking with some of the tracks people directly after the election was that they recognized that they're working from -- I don't want to say a stacked -- they're working from a shorthand.

>> Michael: They lost 4 to 1.

>> Doug MacEachern: I'm trying to get all the gambling analogies worked into this thing.

>> Doug MacEachern: They don't think -- but they're willing to play it out, which, I think s interesting is that there an awful lot of this going on in the state at the moment. A lot of these energizer bunnies that won't run out of electricity.

>> Michael: Battery juice.

>> Doug MacEachern: The same holds true for John F. long's suit. Regarding the stadium. He just -- keep finding a higher court.

>> Howard Fischer: But the problem -- you know, Neil Wake has one valid point which is there had been Superior Court judges in this state who have ruled that equal protection is violated. The problem has come up when these have gone up to the Supreme Court they have been dismissed on technicalities. Did you name in the denies? Was the issue right? So his theory of equal protection is not coming totally out of left field. There is some legal precedent for that.

>> Michael: All right. Well, speaking of things -- I don't know, lottery-like, why is the lottery decide to do tighten internal procedures that.

>> Robbie Sherwood:It seems they were involved in a television game show called Powerball the game show, that has nothing to do with the national Powerball game, but -- and the lottery smelled a rat on its back in September, give them credit and backed out of it, but now the DPS is investigating this game show because they think there might have been something funny going on with how they picked contestants. I don't know all the details. Something wrong with that. DPS is investigating. Lottery says, we tipped the DPS off, but we're going to take a look at our internal procedures. They didn't say what exactly they would be doing to make things better but they've assured us things will get better.

>> Michael: Sticking with the court system, the Arizona Supreme Court, Doug, trying to figure out what to do with people on death row in light of the U.S. Supreme Court ruling that the statute under which they were sentenced was unconstitutional.

>> Doug MacEachern: There are 28 people on death row in Arizona, and their fate is in the Supreme Court's hands over this issue, the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled unconstitutional Arizona's law that allows judges to determine sentencing as opposed to juries. But since these 28 were already sentenced, the question has to be resolved, what happens with them. The state is saying it's essentially -- that it wouldn't have made any difference.

>> Michael: No harm, no foul.

>> Doug MacEachern: Wouldn't have made any difference if they'd been sentenced -- or had been sentence bide a jury or a judge.

>> Howard Fischer: Well, the problem with that is the Stan Feldman pointed out and I know you guys aired the arguments, was you're trying to second-guess what a jury might have done. The jury wasn't in the room. The jury wasn't even picked for the second part, the sentencing phase. And they were suggesting for the state to call this simply as harmless error, well, for the 28 guy whose haven't exhausted their other appeals say it's harmless if we execute you, and that's a stretch.

>> Doug MacEachern: It's a pretty good question. It really is. It's hard for me to imagine that the court would find that there would be no harm, no foul.

>> Michael: On the other hand, though, automatic commutation, I don't know that the court will necessarily lean toward that at all. Is resentencing the most likely compromise?

>> Howard Fischer: Well, there is an interesting legal problem with sentencing. After the law passed out after the Ring decision, the legislature set up the bifurcated procedure and you determined guilt and the same jury decides are there aggravating circumstances. This would impanel a jury solely to determine life or death. There are some interesting constitutional theories as to whether a second jury solely to decide that gets into a double jeopardy problem. So if, in fact, they're going to remand for resentencing these 28 people, there will be a whole new set of issues.

>> Robbie Sherwood: It's going to be complicated and expensive anyway to reimpanel a jury to go find the 12 that convicted them in the first place, there may not be 12 around. These guys have been on death row quite a long time. But commuting 28 sentences for these guys, Arizona has done a pretty thorough review of the people on death row and they found they all need to be there, and these are pretty bad guys, and it's going Touche -- there is going to be a public outcry the other way if these guys get off.

>> Doug MacEachern: Stepping back and looking at it, we are talking about the most heinous criminals in prison right now.

>> Michael: Governor-elect Janet Napolitano beginning to fill some of her key staff positions as she prepares to take over. Doug, she had a list of folk today. Who did she name?

>> Doug MacEachern: Well, right off the top of the list is former candidate for governor, Betsey Bayless, and a Republican. She named her along with Elliott Hibbs, who is a long-time administrator, and Kathy Eden --

>> Michael: Kathy Eden stays at Department of Health Services?

>> Doug MacEachern: Department of Health Services. Betsey takes over department of administration, I believe.

>> Robbie Sherwood: And Elliott goes to the Department of Revenue.

>> Michael: And George Cunningham named to the governor's staff, right?

>> Doug MacEachern: I believe working on budget issues.

>> Howard Fischer: On finance issues. George is somebody who, from a reporter's perspective, is a best friend and a worst nightmare. If you don't understand something on the budget, George really does have what Janet called an encyclopedic knowledge of the budget. The bad news is you go to George for a sound bite and you get a 30-minute dissertation and a spreadsheet. But George is perfect for that position because he really understands, if you tweak this item of the budget, here's the 42 things that are affected.

>> Michael: Now, Robbie, something of a political side story on the Betsey Bayless appointment to the department of administration.

>> Robbie Sherwood: Yeah, Betsey had -- wasn't denying these rumors, wasn't confirming them either, but Betsey was seen as a possibility -- her next act was maybe running for Phoenix Mayor, and Phil Gordon, who everybody knows is running for Mayor, probably had a heart attack when he read Betsey was thinking about that, and probably his -- is popping champagne now that he heard Betsey is going to be the department of administration.

>> Doug MacEachern: Oh, yeah, I was speaking with Phil yesterday, and I think he might have gotten a preempt -- a little heads-up about this, because he was definitely breathing a sigh of relief yesterday.

>> Michael: Robbie, did the governor-elect indicate at all when some more announcements will be forthcoming? These clearly are two or three fairly major appointments, but you have some others like AHCCCS director, corrections, some others that she'll need to fill in.

>> Robbie Sherwood: I think they'll keep trickling in and the whole team will be pretty much set by the time of inauguration comes along because she still needs to name like the actual budget guy. Cunningham is going to be one step. I don't think he will be the guy with the hands right in the budget. He will be more of an administrator. So the actual economist and expert and guy who has to do all the work still has to be named.

>> Howard Fischer: It may even go beyond the January 6th inauguration. You figure there are some small agencies -- Arizona office of tourism, head of the department of veteran services, where there's no reason -- these are not highly political people. There's no reason to wipe them out now. Janet is making a very active effort to be bipartisan. Obviously Betsey becomes a prime example of that. The people she has named to her committee to kind of look at all the new appointments. There's no reason to wipe out everybody and the new your own buddies.

>> Robbie Sherwood: There's literally thousands of these little -- hundreds of these little boards and commissions and she did name one of her campaign manager Mario Diaz. This is to me -- seems like a low-key position in the administration, but he's director of urban affairs -- deputy chief of staff for urban affairs and appointments and so he is going to be the guy who is sifting through the -- trying the best people for some water board or something like that out in the -- you know, in the hinterland.

>> Michael: A budget-related development but unfolding or -- unravelling as the case may be at the state's three universities. Apparently we're looking at some pretty hefty tuition increases, Doug.

>> Doug MacEachern: They're looking at substantial increases, of more than a thousand dollars, I think the amount was about $1100 increases at the state universities, which would, I think, be about the biggest tuition increase that they've ever had. It's a message of things to come because the state -- the state universities evolving image of what they want to become, for one thing, and -- but more immediately, because of their expectation that they're just not going to get any money out of the state legislature. They have to do something about it.

>> Robbie Sherwood: They're going to get negative money.

>> Howard Fischer: This becomes real interesting because there is a constitutional provision that says a university education should be as nearly as free as practicable. Nobody knows what that means. They think it means if you're in the bottom third of all public universities and we're right at the bottom right now in our tuition, that you meet that. But at what point do you get to into a situation where you're going from 2500 to 3600. We're talking a big percentage jump here.

>> Robbie Sherwood: The problem in Arizona is they have taken that constitutional provision too seriously in Arizona. We've had one of the -- the best bargains basically for university education in America, and I think that in response to the times when they're facing these budget cuts, you're seeing people lose their jobs and one of the reactions in a recession is to go to a university and retrain. So the number of students is skyrocketing.

>> Doug MacEachern: The regents will be looking at trade-offs I suspect. They are looking for a major tuition increase, yes, but they'll also fold a lot of that money, I think, into tuition aide for --

>> Michael: In fact, to a certain extent, that seems to be the glue that's forming to put together the coalition that's forming for the large tuition increase.

>> Doug MacEachern: Yeah, that's been the criticism of Arizona's tuition set-up to date, is that they simply don't have a great deal of money available for financial aid. This puts a -- would put a lot more into that Kitty.

>> Howard Fischer: The problem budgetarily is when times were good the university did ok, but when times were bad I think they took more than their percentage of cuts. The percentage of the total state budget going to the universities since I've been coming to the place in '82 has almost steadily declined, as much as they say the university is sucking up all this money, they are getting a smaller share of that pie and this is very important to the business community. If you want a trained force, if a Motorola, or an Intel, or a TRW wants people coming out of college who understand the intricacies of engineering and microbiology and nanotechnology, you need them trained, otherwise it costs the businesses a fortune.

>> Michael: The kind of stuff everybody at this table understands, and with that, we're out of understanding and time. Thanks, guys. To see a transcript of tonight's show, or to share your views or contact us, please visit the Channel 8 website at www.kaet.asu.edu, click on nanotechnology on the left side of the screen and follow the links. Monday, join "Horizon" for a look at the major threats to public health in our state. Also we'll update the special session the legislature is having that day to attempt to balance the current year's budget. Tuesday, lots of controversy about clean elections this past election cycle. We will have a postmortem of some of the problems and possible cures. On Wednesday, a "Horizon" special, Arizona Supreme Court Justice Ruth McGregor interviews Sandra Day O'Connor about her long and illustrious legal career. "Horizon" is preempted for Thanksgiving. Thank you for that. But join us again Friday for the Walter Cronkite Award luncheon. The winner of this year's Cronkite Award for excellence to be featured in the program is long-time ABC sportscaster and ASU alumni Al Michaels. That's that's the lineup for next week on "Horizon". Thank you very much for joining us on this Friday evening. I hope you have a great weekend. I'm Michael Grant. Good night.