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July 25, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
The results of the latest KAET-ASU Poll;
an update on efforts to restore the Florence Courthouse
In-Studio Guests:
State Representative Jason Rose, representing proposition 200;
State Representative Doug Cole, representing proposition 201;
State Representative David Lasarte, representing proposition 202

>> MICHAEL: TONIGHT ON "HORIZON," GAMBLING SUPPORTERS WILL BE PLACING THEIR BETS ON THREE BALLOT INITIATIVES THIS NOVEMBER. WE'LL TELL YOU WHICH VOTERS LIKE THE MOST IN THE LATEST KAET-ASU POLL AND WE'LL HEAR FROM REPRESENTATIVES OF THE THREE INITIATIVES. IT'S THE OLDEST CONTINUOUSLY USED PUBLIC BUILDING IN ARIZONA. AND THEY'D LIKE TO KEEP IT THAT WAY. MORE ABOUT EFFORTS TO RESTORE THE FLORENCE COURTHOUSE COMING UP. GOOD EVENING, I'M MICHAEL GRANT. THE STAKES ARE HIGH FOR THE THREE COMPETING GAMING INITIATIVES THAT SHOULD APPEAR ON THIS NOVEMBER'S BALLOT. WE WILL TALK TO THE REPRESENTATIVES FROM THOSE THREE MEASURES. BUT FIRST, HERE ARE THE RESULTS OF THE LATEST KAET-TV WALTER CRONKITE SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM AND MASS COMMUNICATION POLL ON GAMING. THE POLL WAS TAKEN JULY 18TH THROUGH THE 21ST AND SURVEYED 411 REGISTERED ARIZONA VOTERS. 65 PERCENT OF THOSE QUESTIONED FAVORED PROPOSITION 202, THE INITIATIVE SPONSORED BY THE MAJORITY OF INDIAN TRIBES IN ARIZONA. 19% WERE AGAINST THAT MEASURE, WHILE 16% HAD NO OPINION. THE NEXT MOST POPULAR INITIATIVE WAS PROPOSITION 200, SPONSORED BY THE COLORADO RIVER INDIAN TRIBES. 45% FAVOR THAT ONE. 39 PERCENT ARE AGAINST IT, WHILE 16% OFFERED NO OPINION. THE WEAKEST SUPPORT WENT TO PROPOSITION 201, SPONSORED BY THE RACE TRACK INDUSTRY. 32% LIKE THAT MEASURE, 53% DO NOT SUPPORT IT, WHILE 15% HAD NO OPINION. THE POLL HAD A MARGIN OF ERROR OF 4.8%. WE WILL GIVE YOU MORE RESULTS FROM OUR POLL, BUT FIRST A DISCUSSION ON THE GAMING INITIATIVES.

>>> HERE NOW TO TALK ABOUT THE GAMING INITIATIVES ARE JASON ROSE, REPRESENTING PROPOSITION 200, THE COLORADO RIVER INDIAN TRIBES MEASURE. DOUG COLE REPRESENTING PROPOSITION 201, THE RACE TRACK INDUSTRY INITIATIVE. AND DAVID LASARTE FOR PROPOSITION 202, SPONSORED BY 17 TRIBES IN ARIZONA. GENTLEMEN, GOOD TO SEE ALL THREE OF YOU. DOUG, YOU WANT TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE QUESTIONS WE ASKED IN THE POLL?

>> DOUG: THE ELECTION IS FOUR MONTHS OUT, WE HAVE JUST COME OFF A VERY CONFUSING LEGISLATIVE SESSION WHERE THE ISSUE WAS DEBATED. THERE'S BEEN AD CAMPAIGNS RUN BY ALL PARTIES, SOME TO A GREATER EXTENT THAN OTHERS. AND PEOPLE AREN'T FOCUSED. OF COURSE, LIKE IN EVERY POLL YOU CAN GO THROUGH AND NITPICK IT TO DEATH. I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO WASTE YOUR VIEWERS' TIME. I'LL BE HAPPY TO HAVE -- I WOULD ARGUE THAT HE SHOULD BE HIGHER, THE WAY THE QUESTION READ.

>> MICHAEL: SERIOUSLY, DOUG EXPLAIN TO ME WHY THE PEOPLE OF ARIZONA OUGHT TO VOTE FOR THE RACETRACK PROPOSITION, PROPOSITION 201.

>> DOUG: WE THINK WE HAVE THE BEST PROPOSITION. IT RETURNS THE MOST MONEY TO THE PEOPLE OF ARIZONA, FOR DEFICIT REDUCTION, K-3 READING PROGRAMS, FOR SENIOR DRUG PRESCRIPTION. POLICE AND FIRE PROTECTION TO TOURISM. WE RETURN 40% OF OUR GROSS REVENUES TO THE STATE AND OFFER THE NATIVE AMERICAN 8% OF THE REVENUE SO THAT, WE OUR LANGUAGE IS PATTERNED VERY SIMILAR AFTER PROP 202. AND LET ME MAKE ONE POINT, ALL THREE CONTINUE INDIAN GAMING AND ALL THREE ARE ABOUT EXTENSION GAMING. THERE IS NO STATUS QUO INITIATIVE ON THE BALLOT.

>> MICHAEL: JASON, TELL ME WHY PEOPLE OUGHT TO VOTE FOR PROP 202, THE COLORADO RIVER INDIAN TRIBE INITIATIVE.

>> JASON: FIRST I DO HAVE TO GET IN A SHOT ABOUT THE POLL, MICHAEL. I HAVE TO, BECAUSE I THINK DR. MERRILL TOOK ALONG AND ALLOWED DR. SEUSS TO COME IN AND WRITE THE QUESTIONS SINCE THEY BEAR NO RESEMBLANCE WHATSOEVER TO THE LANGUAGE THE SECRETARY OF STATE IS WORKING ON. I SUPPOSE THE GOOD NEWS THAT WE SEE HERE IS THAT INDIAN GAMING IS POPULAR, SUPPORTED BY A LARGE NUMBER OF VOTERS. WE ARE A SMALLER RURAL TRIBE AND WE THINK THE REASON INDIAN GAMING WAS CREATED ORIGINALLY WAS TO LEAVE MONEY ON THE RESERVATIONS SO NATIVE AMERICANS CAN CONTINUE TO IMPROVE THEIR LIVES THEMSELVES, NOT TO FIND A WAY FOR GOVERNORS AND LEGISLATORS TO ULTIMATELY TAX THOSE ENTERPRISES AND GIVE IT TO POLITICIANS AND BUREAUCRATS IN PHOENIX. THAT'S THE MAJOR DIFFERENCE. IF PEOPLE WANT TO FIND A NEW WAY TO GIVE LOTS OF MONEY TO POLITICIANS AND BUREAUCRATS IN PHOENIX, THEN THEY HAVE ALTERNATIVES WITH 201 AND 202.

>> DAVID, AT LEAST ACCORDING TO OUR POLL, FLAWED AS IT MAY BE, RIGHT NOW ABOUT TWO OUT OF THREE ARE SUPPORTING -- I HAVE TO KEEP LOOKING AT MY NOTES TO GET THE NUMBER -- PROPOSITION 202, WHY SHOULD PEOPLE VOTE FOR IT?

>> DAVID: THE ONLY POLL THAT REALLY MATTERS IS THE ONE ON ELECTION DAY. IT'S A VERY CLEAR CHOICE, FOR THE VOTERS. PROP 202, THE INDIAN SELF RELIANCE INITIATIVE ARE FIRST, IT GUARANTEES THAT TRIBES WILL CONTINUE TO BUILD A FUTURE OF SELF RELIANCE. CONTRARY TO WHAT YOU MAY HEAR, 201 DOES NOT GUARANTEE INDIAN GAMING WILL CONTINUE. REASON NUMBER 1 IS INDIAN GAMING WILL CONTINUE. TRIBES WILL CONTINUE TO BUILD A FUTURE OF SELF RELIANCE. TWO, THESE NEW COMPACTS UNDER PROP 202 WOULD GIVE MONEY TO THE STATE FOR STATEWIDE PROGRAMS SO THAT ALL ARIZONA CAN BENEFIT. AT THE SAME TIME IT WILL SHARE MONEY WITH NON-GAMING TRIBES, LOCATED IN THE RURAL AREAS WHO HAVEN'T SEEN ANY BENEFIT FROM GAMING. THREE, WHILE 202 IS DOING THIS, IT NOT ONLY MAINTAINS STRICT LIMITS ON GAMING IN THE STATE, WHICH IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE, BUT ALSO TIGHTENS THE REGULATIONS SO IT MAINTAINS LIMITS AND TIGHTENS THE REGULATIONS. LAST, BUT CERTAINLY NOT LEAST, PROP 202, THE 17 TRIBE INITIATIVE, IS THE ONLY BALANCED APPROACH. THE ONLY ONE WHICH MANY ARIZONANS HAVE WORKED ON OUR INITIATIVE. PROP 202 IS A CULMINATION OF THREE YEARS OF WORK BY PEOPLE FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE.

>> MICHAEL: JASON, IF I'M A VOTER LOOKING AT THIS STRICTLY FROM THE STANDPOINT OF I WANT TO CUT THE BEST DEAL FOR THE STATE OF ARIZONA FROM A REVENUE STANDPOINT WHY DO I VOTE FOR YOURS? IT'S ONLY 3% AND ON NET INCOME, NOT GROSS.

>> JASON: INDIAN GAMING, MICHAEL, WAS NOT CREATED TO ALLOW RACE TRACKS OR RESORTS OR ANY OTHER INDUSTRY TO ULTIMATELY GET IN THE GAMING BUSINESS, IT WAS DONE TO HELP NATIVE AMERICANS IMPROVE THEIR OWN FUTURES. LEAVING THE MOST MONEY ON THE RESERVATIONS SO THAT GOOD WORK CAN CONTINUE IS VERY AND TERRIBLY COMPELLING JUSTIFICATION FOR SUPPORTS PROP 200.

>> MICHAEL: OTHER STATES TAKE A PRETTY GOOD TAKE, DO THEY NOT?

>> THAT'S IN OTHER STATES. WE THINK THE MONEY SHOULD STAY IN PARKER, IN SUPAI, IN WINDOW ROCK, FIRST MESA, AND THAT'S HOW ARIZONA WILL BEST BE SERVED. NOT GIVING 300 OR SO MANY MILLIONS TO POLITICIANS AND BUREAUCRATS.

>> MICHAEL: DOUG, LET ME OFFER ONE VIEWPOINT ON THE POLL RESULTS. TO THE EXTENT THAT PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED WITH GAMING COMING OFF THE RESERVATION, THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THAT ISSUE AT THE RACE TRACK INITIATIVE.

>> DOUG: THE POLL STATED, IT ASKED FOR GAMING AUTHORIZATION, IT DOESN'T STATE AS JASON CORRECTLY POINTED OUT WHAT IS ACTUALLY GOING TO BE ON THE BALLOT THAT THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAS PREPARED. OUR INITIATIVE SPECIFICALLY DEFINES IT TO EXISTING RACING LOCATIONS THAT HAVE EXISTED FOR THE LAST 60 YEARS. WE'RE A 60-YEAR-OLD INDUSTRY. WE DO CLASS THREE GAMING, PARIMUTUEL GAMING IS CLASS THREE GAMING. OUR INITIATIVE IS LIMITED TO 10 SITES ACROSS THE STATE WHERE GAMING EXISTS NOW.

>> MICHAEL: HOW DO I CONTINUE TO DRAW THAT LINE, HOW OFTEN -- DO WE OFFER A RESORT FOR EXAMPLE --

>>DOUG: THAT'S A VERY GOOD QUESTION. IN ORDER FOR IT TO GO BEYOND OUR SITES WHERE GAMING HAS EXISTED 60 YEARS, IT WOULD TAKE ANOTHER VOTE OF THE PEOPLE. IT'S THE PEOPLE'S DECISION.

>> MICHAEL: YOU LOSE THE BRIGHT LINE, DON'T YOU?

>> LASARTE: WE LOST THE BRIGHT LINE WHEN WE SIGNED THE FIRST GAMING COMPACT BACK IN 1993.

>> MICHAEL: DAVID, THE TRIBES PROPOSITION DOES ALLOW FOR A DOUBLING OF THE SIZE OF THE URBAN CASINOS. AND ALSO ALLOWS BLACKJACK FOR THE FIRST TIME. IF I'M WORRIED ABOUT -- OKAY, THAT'S FINE, IF I CAN LIVE WITH THE GAMING OPERATIONS THAT EXIST CURRENTLY BUT I'M CONCERNED ABOUT THEM GETTING LARGER, ISN'T THAT A REASON FOR ME TO VOTE NO ON THE TRIBES INITIATIVE?

>>DAVID: ACTUALLY, NO. THE LIMITS, RIGHT NOW ARIZONA HAS SOME OF THE STRONGEST LIMITS ON THE SIZE OF INDIAN GAMING IN THE COUNTRY. UNDER 202, A NUMBER OF FACILITIES IN PHOENIX WILL FREEZE, THE NUMBER THROUGHOUT THE STATE WILL BE REDUCED --

>> MICHAEL: THAT WOULD BE BIGGER?

>> DAVID: FOR EXAMPLE, BALANCE. THE TRIBES HAVE A CERTAIN NUMBER OF SLOT MACHINES. BY REDUCING THE NUMBER OF FACILITIES, PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT SEEING MORE FACILITIES IN THE STATE, REDUCING THE NUMBER OF FACILITIES, YOU NEED THE CONCERNS OF THE PEOPLE OF ARIZONA, BUT YOU ALSO NEED THE TRIBES' CONCERN SO THEY CAN USE THE MACHINES THEY HAVE. IT'S A MATTER OF BALANCE. THERE'S SOME GIVE, THERE'S SOME TAKE. IT'S A BIGGER ISSUE THAN A SINGLE TRIBE OR JUST A TRIBE, IT'S SOMETHING THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE NEEDS OF THE WHOLE STATE.

>> MICHAEL: JASON, THE INITIATIVE ALLOWS THE TYPES OF GAMING TO EXPAND.

>> JASON: I SUPPOSE THAT'S ONE ARGUMENT. THE OTHER IS THAT PROP 202 INCREASES BLACKJACK TABLES 5 TIMES MORE THAN OURS. WE'RE ENTITLED TO -- WE HAVE 20 TABLES. SO IN TERMS OF THIS IMPRESSION THAT 202 IS SOMEHOW MORE RESTRICTIVE, I DON'T BUY IT AND I DON'T THINK VOTERS ARE GOING TO BUY IT.

>> MICHAEL: DOES THE INITIATIVE GET REGULATION?

>>JASON NOTHING CHANGES FROM THE CURRENT SITUATION. I'M UNAWARE OF BIG SIGNIFICANT PROBLEMS WITH INDIAN GAMING RIGHT NOW WHERE THERE'S A HUMAN CRY TO COME DOWN ON THE TRIBES.

>>DOUG: I WOULD HAVE TO RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE. BY MY READ, YOU ROLL BACK THE CLOCK. PROP 201, THAT WE ARE SPONSORING HAS THE TOUGHEST REGULATION AND THE MOST STRINGENT FINANCIAL REPORTING PER FACILITY PER DAY, JUST LIKE THE RACE TRACKS DO RIGHT NOW. WE KNOW WHAT'S GOING ON. THEY'RE GUARANTEEING A REVENUE SOURCE FOR THE VARIOUS PROGRAMS ENUMERATED IN PROP 202, THE PUBLIC OF THIS STATE SHOULD BE GUARANTEED THAT THEY ARE GOING TO RECEIVE THOSE REVENUE SOURCES. WE PROVIDE FOR THAT IN PROP 201.

>> MICHAEL: REGULATION.

>> DAVID: PROP 202, 17 TRIBE INITIATIVE. RIGHT NOW ARIZONA INDICATING HAS SOME OF THE STRONGEST REGULATION IN THE COUNTRY. THE TRIBES, THEY REPORT EVERYBODY TO THE DEPARTMENT OF GAMING. THEY REPORT EVERYTHING THE NATIONAL INDIAN GAMING COMMISSION. UNDER PROP 202, IN ADDITION ALL OF THE LARGE CASINOS, INDIAN GAMING CASINOS, WILL BE PUT ON A COMPUTER SYSTEM SO THE DEPARTMENT OF GAMING-- OR I CAN GET REAL TIME INFORMATION, MINUTE BY MINUTE, THEY WILL KNOW EXACTLY WHAT'S GOING ON IN ALL THE CASINOS.

>> MICHAEL: BUT YOU DON'T PUBLICLY REPORT THAT INFORMATION? IS THAT A REAL ISSUE OR IS THAT A RED HERRING?

>> DAVID: A RED HERRING. THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF MONEY BROUGHT IN THE STATE, AND THE TOTAL AMOUNT OF MONEY GIVEN TO THE STATE. THESE TRIBES THEY COMPETE WITH EACH OTHER FOR THEM TO RELEASE PROPRIETARY INFORMATION PUTS TRIBES AT A COMPETITIVE DISADVANTAGE. IN 201, THE RACE TRACK INITIATIVE, THE RACE TRACK CASINO INITIATIVE, WHICH WOULD BE CREATED WOULD BE REGULATED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF RACING. THE RACING INDUSTRY, NO EXPERTISE IN INDIAN CASINOS. WHY WOULD 201 THE RACETRACK INITIATIVE BE AFRAID OF REGULATION BY THE DEPARTMENT OF GAMING HAS THE EXPERTISE TO REGULATE GAMING.

>> DOUG: THERE'S A SIMPLE ANSWER TO THAT. THE DEPARTMENT OF RACING FOR THE LAST 60 YEARS HAS BEEN IN EVERY ONE OF OUR FACILITIES. TO HIS POINT ABOUT GIVING AWAY SECRETS OF WHAT OTHER TRIBES DO, OUR FACILITIES COMPETE AGAINST ONE ANOTHER. YOU CAN GO TO THE DEPARTMENT OF RACING AND SEE WHAT WE'RE DOING HERE. THAT IS A RED HERRING ISSUE.

>> MICHAEL: JASON. YOU GET THE LAST WORD.

>> JASON: INDIAN GAMING WAS CREATED TO IMPROVE THE LIVES OF THE NATIVE AMERICANS. THAT'S ULTIMATELY THE QUESTION AT THE END OF THE DAY. DO YOU WANT TO CONTINUE WITH SOMETHING THAT'S WORKING INCREDIBLY WELL FOR TRIBES ALL OVER THE STATE? OR DO YOU WANT TO DISCONTINUE THAT AND GO DOWN THE SLIPPERY SLOW PATH WITH PROP 201? WE THINK OUR RURAL TRIBE HAS COME UP WITH A WAY TO ASSIST THE TRIBES MORE AND LEAVE MORE MONEY ON THE RESERVATION SO THEY CAN CONTINUE TO IMPROVE THEIR OWN LIVES. THAT'S THE BEST APPROACH.

>> MICHAEL: JASON ROSE, I SUSPECT WE'RE GOING TO GET BACK TO THIS OVER AND OVER. THANKS FOR THE FIRST FORAY. DAVID, GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN. DOUG COLE TAKE CARE OF YOURSELF. I'M SURE WE'LL MEET AGAIN.

>> DOUG: SURE WE WILL.

>> MICHAEL: BESIDES QUESTIONS ON GAMING, WE ALSO ASKED SURVEY PARTICIPANTS ABOUT SEVERAL OTHER ISSUES, INCLUDING PROPOSITION 203, WHICH WOULD DECRIMINALIZE POSSESSION OF SMALL AMOUNTS OF MARIJUANA. 57% SUPPORTED THE MEASURE, 31% WOULD VOTE AGAINST IT, WHILE 12% DID NOT OFFER AN OPINION. THOSE SURVEYED WERE ALSO ASKED IF VALINDA JO ELLIOTT, THE WOMAN ACCUSED OF STARTING THE CHEDISKI FIRE, SHOULD BE CRIMINALLY PROSECUTED. 34% SAID YES, 54% SAID NO, WHILE 11% HAD NO OPINION. FEDERAL PROSECUTORS HAVE DECIDED NOT TO CHARGE ELLIOTT. FINALLY, WE ASKED VOTERS IF ENVIRONMENTALISTS WERE TO BLAME FOR RECENT FOREST FIRES BY BLOCKING ATTEMPTS TO PROPERLY MANAGE FORESTS. 61% SAID YES, 28% SAID NO, WHILE 12% HAD NO OPINION.

>>>MICHAEL: IT'S A BUILDING THAT'S BEEN IN USE EVEN BEFORE ARIZONA WAS A STATE. AS A MATTER OF FACT, THE OLD COURTHOUSE IN FLORENCE IS STILL BEING USED TODAY, THE OLDEST CONTINUOUSLY USED PUBLIC BUILDING IN ARIZONA. BUT FROM THE FALSE CLOCKS IN THE CLOCK TO YOUR DOWN TO THE BASEMENT, THE BUILDING IS STARTING TO SHOW ITS AGE. A FUND-RAISING DRIVE IS UNDERWAY TO RENOVATE THE BUILDING AND ALLOW IT TO CONTINUE ITS REIGN AS THE OLDEST CONTINUOUSLY USED PUBLIC BUILDING IN OUR STATE. PRODUCER MIKE SAUCEDA AND VIDEOGRAPHER CAROL LYNDE BRING US THE STORY OF THE AGING VICTORIAN-STYLE EDIFICE.

>> REPORTER: TIME STANDS STILL AT THE OLD PINAL COUNTY COURTHOUSE IN FLORENCE, AT LEAST ON THE CLOCK FACES.

>> THERE'S NEVER BEEN CLOCKS IN THE CLOCK TOWER, THERE WASN'T ENOUGH MONEY, SO THEY BROUGHT IN CLOCK FACINGS.

>> REPORTER: SOME FOLKS THINK THE CLOCKS READ 11:44 OTHERS 9:00 OR 11:43. HERE'S ONE VERSION WHY THE HANDS REST WHERE THEY DO.

>> WHEN THEY BUILT THIS COURTHOUSE THEY SET THE TIME ABOUT QUARTER TO TWELVE SO PEOPLE COULD KNOW THEY COULD COME TO THE COURTHOUSE AND GET THEIR BUSINESS DONE BEFORE THEY SHUT IT DOWN AT NOONTIME.

>> REPORTER: NO DOUBT TIME HAS BEEN FLYING FOR THE REST OF THE STRUCTURE, THE OLDEST CONTINUALLY USED PUBLIC BUILDING IN ARIZONA. THE 111 YEAR OLD COURTHOUSE WAS BUILT 1891 FOR $29,000.

>> JOHN SWEARENGIN: THIS IS THE SECOND COURTHOUSE THAT THE COUNTY BUILT, THE THIRD THEY USED. THEY RENTED THE FIRST ONE, WHICH WAS AN ADOBE BUILDING. THE SECOND ONE -- OR THE FIRST ONE THEY BUILT IS MCFARLAND STATE PARK NOW.

>> REPORTER: THE COURTHOUSE WAS CONSTRUCTED TO SHOW THAT THE COUNTY WAS PLANNING TO PROSPER EVEN THOUGH THE CURTAINS IN THE CLOCK TOWER ARE JUST PAINT.

>> ERNIE FELIZ: THIS IS AMERICAN VICTORIAN ARCHITECTURAL STYLE A BIT LATER IN THE PERIOD WHEN WE'RE GETTING AWAY FROM ADOBE CONSTRUCTION, WE HAVE A RAILROAD NOW AND WE CAN BRING IN MATERIALS FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

>> REPORTER: THE BUILDING IS RICH IN ARCHITECTURAL DETAIL. SOME OF THE ORIGINAL DOOR KNOBS STILL IN USE. NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN GET AT LOWE'S. FELIZ WHOSE FAMILY HAS LIVED IN FLORENCE FOR ABOUT AS LONG AS THE COURTHOUSE HAS BEEN AROUND, HAS FOND MEMORIES OF THE BUILDING, ESPECIALLY THE STAIRCASE.

>>ERNIE: I'M TALKING 5 YEARS OLD MY MOTHER BROUGHT ME IN HERE, I WALKED IN AND SAW THAT SPLIT STAIRCASE, THAT WAS SOMETHING I WANTED TO RUN UP AND DOWN ALL DAY LONG ON BECAUSE IT JUST LOOKED SO FABULOUS, YOU KNOW.

>> REPORTER: BUT THE BUILDING WHERE SWEARENGIN WORKED AS A CLERK OF THE COURT IN THE 1940S IS FALLING APART.

>>JOHN: HE ONLY THING IT'S DONE SINCE I WORKED HERE IS DETERIORATE MORE. YOU HAVE TO ALLOW CERTAIN DETERIORATION.

>> ERNIE: MOST PRESSING PROBLEM WAS THE CLOCK TOWER AND CUPOLA. JOE BLOW DID A STUDY ON THE CLOCK TOWER, HE'S AN ARCHITECT IN PHOENIX, HE SAID, HE EXPLAINED THAT IT WASN'T CONSTRUCTED VERY WELL TO BEGIN WITH. AND THEN OVER TIME, IT'S JUST GOTTEN WORN AND WORN. THE ISSUE IS, IS THAT IT TENDS TO SWAY. AND IT COULD FALL DOWN. NOW, THERE'S THAT, AND THEN THERE'S THE ROOF WHICH IS IN BAD NEED OF REPAIR. IT LEAKS.

>> REPORTER: THE CLOCK TOWER IS HELD TOGETHER IN SOME PLACES BY BALING WIRE.

>>ERNIE: WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH THE CLOCK TOWER IS FABRICATE A STEEL STRUCTURE THAT WILL ATTACH TO THE FRAME AND SHORE UP THE CLOCK TOWER SO IT WILL STAY IN PLACE AND THEN WE WANT TO GO ONTO THE ROOF AND REPAIR THE ROOF SO THAT IT DOESN'T LEAK.

>> REPORTER: FELIZ HOPES TO RAISE $2. 5 MILLION TO HELP RENOVATE THE COURTHOUSE AND HELP IT CONTAIN ITS REIGN AS THE STATE'S OLDEST CONTINUOUSLY USED PUBLIC BUILDING. HE SAYS IT WILL COST $100,000 TO FIX THE CLOCK TOWER. ANOTHER BIG PROBLEM IS THE ATTIC WHICH IS BEING WEIGHED DOWN BY THE CLOCK TOWER. IN THE 1950S, COUNTY SUPERVISORS WANTED TO CUT OFF THE CLOCK TOWER BUT CITIZENS FOUGHT THAT AS THEY FOUGHT A MOVE IN THE '90S TO PUT REAL CLOCKS IN THE TOWER. SO THE SOLUTION OF THE SAGGING ROOF WAS TO JACK IT UP FROM THE BASEMENT AND BRACE THE ATTIC WITH NUMEROUS BOARDS. IT WAS A TEMPORARY SOLUTION THAT'S LASTED OVER 40 YEARS. A MORE PERMANENT SOLUTION USING THE SAME STEEL STRUCTURE AS IN THE CLOCK TOWER IS GOING TO BE EXPENSIVE.

>> ERNIE: THE ROOF RIGHT NOW IS ESTIMATED RIGHT NOW, THE COST OF THE REPAIRS IS ABOUT $800,000 BETWEEN THE CLOCK TOWER AND ROOF AND THAT'S QUITE A BIT MORE THAN WHAT WE HAVE AVAILABLE TO SPEND RIGHT NOW.

>>REPORTER: ONCE THEY GET OFF THE ROOF THERE ARE OTHER RENOVATIONS TO CONSIDER, LIKE MAKING THE BUILDING ADA COMPATIBLE, A SPRINKLER SYSTEM, ADDRESSING HEATING, PLUMBING AND ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS, AS WELL AS BRINGING THE OLD BUILDING UP TO DATE.

>> ERNIE: IN THE YEAR 2002 THERE'S A LOT OF ISSUES OF TECHNOLOGY THAT WE HAVE TO ADDRESS. WE HAVE TO BRING IT UP TO DATE SO THAT WE CAN USE COMPUTERS IN HERE AND WE CAN USE TELEPHONE LINES AND SO THERE'S A LOT OF ELECTRICAL ISSUES TO ADDRESS.

>> REPORTER: TOTAL COST OF RENOVATIONS DEPENDS ON WHICH PLAN THE COUNTY INTENDS TO USE. THE MOST COMPLETE RESTORATION WOULD INVOLVE TAKING AWAY PARTS OF THE BUILDING BUILT AFTER 1891, ESPECIALLY THE PARTS WHERE THE BRICK AND MORTAR DON'T MATCH THE ORIGINAL. THAT WOULD RESTORE THE BUILDING TO ITS ORIGINAL CROSS SHAPE.

>> ERNIE: COMPLETE RESTORATION WOULD INVOLVE REMOVING THE ADDITIONS OF 1982, 1975, 1933 AND 1917. SO THEY WOULD HAVE THE CROSS-SHAPED BUILDING AND 15,000 SQUARE FEET. IF YOU GO BACK TO, THE OTHER ALTERNATIVE WAS KEEPING 1917 AND GETTING RID OF ALL THE OTHER ADDITIONS. AND THEN THE THIRD ALTERNATIVE WAS TO KEEP 1933 AND GET RID OF THE TWO LATER ADDITIONS. THE FOURTH ALTERNATIVE WAS TO KEEP ALL OF THE ADDITIONS.

>> REPORTER: THE OLD COURTHOUSE IN FLORENCE HAS SEEN A LOT OF HISTORY. MURDERESS WINNIE RUTH JUDD HAD A SANITY HEARING THERE. THE LAST STAGE COACH ROBBER IN AMERICA HAD HER TRIAL IN IT. AND THERE'S EVEN TALK OF GHOSTS.

>> JOHN: THE ONE THING THAT I CAN SAY, THERE MIGHT BE A GHOST SOMEWHERE IN THERE. THAT'S NOT THE GHOST REALLY, IT'S THE ONES WHO WERE LEFT BEHIND IN THE CEMETERY. THIS BUILDING SITS ON WHAT WAS THE TOWN CEMETERY. WHEN THEY TOOK ALL THE BODIES OUT, THEY MISSED A FEW, NATURALLY, BECAUSE A LOT OF THEM WEREN'T MARKED. SOME OF THOSE GHOSTS MAY BE MAY BE FLOATING AROUND THERE. THAT'S THE ONLY BASIS FOR THE GHOST STORY THAT I KNOW OF.

>> REPORTER: GHOSTS DON'T STOP PEOPLE FROM LOVING THE OLD COURTHOUSE.

>> JOHN: THEY LOVE THIS PLACE. IT'S A TREASURE FOR THE WHOLE COUNTY AND FOR THE STATE REALLY. THE PEOPLE IN FLORENCE PARTICULARLY BECAUSE IT'S A PART OF OUR LIVES.

>> MICHAEL: TO VIEW A TRANSCRIPT OF "HORIZON," OR FIND OUT ABOUT UPCOMING SHOWS, PLEASE VISIT OUR WEBSITE AT WWW.KAET.ASU.EDU. THEN CLICK ON "HORIZON" AND FOLLOW THE LINKS.

>>> COMING UP TOMORROW ON "HORIZON," THE JOURNALISTS ROUNDTABLE, WHERE REPORTERS GATHER AROUND THIS VERY STRANGELY SHAPED TABLE TO DISCUSS THE WEEK'S TOP STORIES. AMONG THOSE STORIES, ROCK STAR TED NUGENT AND THE NRA THROW THEIR SUPPORT TO MATT SALMON FOR GOVERNOR. AND STATE LAWMAKERS COULD BE IN SPECIAL SESSION SOON, PERHAPS NEXT WEEK, TO DEAL WITH OUR DEATH PENALTY LAW IN THE AFTERMATH OF U.S. SUPREME COURT RULING. THAT AND MORE ON FRIDAY'S EDITION OF "HORIZON." THANKS FOR JOINING ME ON THIS THURSDAY EVENING. I'M MICHAEL GRANT. HAVE A GOOD ONE. GOOD NIGHT.