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February 22, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topic: "The Journalists Roundtable"
In-Studio Guests: David Leibowitz from KTAR radio;
Chip Scutari, legislative reporter for "The Arizona Republic;"
Doug Maceachern, editorial writer for the republic.

>> MICHAEL: It's Friday February 22nd, 2002. In the headlines this week Governor Hull and Arizona's Indian tribes announce they've agreed to a new gaming deal that will expand local casinos. Angry state workers rallied at the capitol this week over the pay raise issue as lawmakers try to figure a way out of the budget crisis. And the Phoenix city council votes to get out of the race for the Arizona Cardinals football stadium... maybe. Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. This is the journalists roundtable. Joining me to talk about these and other stories are David Leibowitz from KTAR radio, Chip Scutari, legislative reporter for "The Arizona Republic," and Doug Maceachern, editorial writer for the republic. Some people were surprised this week when Governor Hull and Arizona's Indian tribes announce add deal, a on new gaming compacts that will give the state a cut of the action. David, did the State of Arizona hit the jackpot?

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: You know, Michael, I will have to say the governor just has a reverse Midas touch. Everything she touches turns to fools gold would it a appear. If you look at some of the other deals states have struck with casinos, it wouldn't appear that the state did anything great here. If you listen to the governor nurse rhetoric, she has talked about being antigambling, wanting to limit gambling in the Phoenix Metro area. What we basically did is double the number of slot machines and we have legalized blackjack. I can't make the argument this is a great deal for anybody.

>> MICHAEL: However, you are going from zero --

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: I agree, zip.

>> MICHAEL: To potentially $100 million a year.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: I would argue the thing of it is you have what the tribes need. You have ready cash in the form of people who are willing to go gamble. The governor seems to have almost negotiated from a point of weakness when she might have been able to negotiate from a position of strength. I will grant on the other hand the Indians have the strength of the national Indian gaming act which gives them a certain amount of strength but I would have just liked to see the state take a harder line early on in the discussion. There were other sorts of numbers being thrown around. 10% and things like that. What we've ultimately arrived at is kind of a graduated thing, 1% of the first 25 million dollars -- the other thing is you're going to have to trust the tribes a fair amount to understand how much money they are making from these casinos.

>> MICHAEL: Doug, you were expressing some concerns about the financial disclosure aspects of this thing?

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: I think of all the issues that -- the ones David raised and some of the other ones people talked about, that's the one that concerns me the most s the fact you have to do some serious mathematical equations to come up with what you think may be the per tribe take on gaming, and that's an issue that we don't like. I think overall, though, I have to say that I like it a lot more than David did, because I've got to tell you that, keeping your eye on what the initial concept was behind allowing Indian gaming in the first place was it would give tribes an economic engine they didn't have before and it would contain it on land rather than have it spread out all over Arizona, which is what some people like president Gnant would prefer to see.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: And maybe for her political timing of this, we're in the state's largest budget deficit and she's going to release her plan and it's $100 million a year to the state coffers and it goes to key things like education, healthcare, maybe that would be the only reason I could see why she would time it like this, because things have so tensed down there at the legislature now over the whole pay raise issue and other controversies --

>> MICHAEL: David, I wonder also how large an element, and really how large an element of the tribe's ability to move something to the ballot and let's face it, they moved something to the ballot in California, Vegas came in heavy, in fact, I think that was a record amount of money spent on a ballot initiative over there, and California got about as close to Las Vegas style gambling as you can get. So to a certain extent, you may be negotiating for a position of fear as --

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: Keep in mind the wild card in all this is going to be the legislature, which has shown at least for my seven years here that they have the ability to screw up anything they touch and they will have to sign off on this and you also have a lawsuit penneding as well that dog and horse tracks have brought. You have a judge that's weighed in on the side of the tracks in the past. So there's lots of variables. To say this plan is fait accompli putting the cart before the horse.

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: There is an element of the agreement that I think sort of gets lost in the discussion that I think is worth mentioning. While David is correct that the number of slot machines in the Metro area would certainly increase, overall the number of slot machines don't increase, they come from arrangements, deals made between the rural tribes and the urban tribes, and that's important, because it gives that economic engine to tribes that wouldn't have had it otherwise, and that dovetails with the original intent of tribal gaming in the first place and that is that it's intended to spread the wealth.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: What's interesting, if you look at the statistics for unemployment in tribes in rural areas where casinos have not done very well, you could make a pretty good argument that all across the United States Indian gaming has doning for any tribe outside a Metro area. So I see what you're saying. But by the same token, you'd have to be concerned in you're a dog or horse track in the Phoenix Metro area that you are going to be sustain your way of life, your economic prosperity at all and they're not very prosperous to begin with. I don't know how you can compete --

>> CHIP SCUTARI: I think what David mentioned before like this is not fait accompli, you would have to be naive to think the tracks will sit back and take this. They're going to get something on the ballot or do something at the legislature. This is the first step in a long battle.

>> MICHAEL: Have I mentioned yet nice tie?

>> CHIP SCUTARI: Thank you very much.

>> MICHAEL: I really like that tie.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: You're the only one.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: You are definitely the only one.

>> I like that.

>> MICHAEL: It's a great tie.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: I appreciate that.

>> MICHAEL: Two to one -- in any event, certainly one of the difficulties this faces, I think the governor's press secretary Francie Noyes put it this way, it will be a up and down vote, legislature don't monkey around, don't go to 10% on revenues, don't go to not allowing rural transfers -- don't monkey witness, just go up or down on it. Normally the legislative response in that case is, well, ok, we'll just vote it down.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: They like those ultimatums in the governor's office. I haven't seen any evidence they've actually worked yet.

>> DOUG MACEACHERNI: have to tell you, you're right. That's not going to happen. But the fact is, it's a reflection every two years every really tough negotiation and for essentially a third party, in this case the legislature, to step in and say we're going to totally rework this deal, can I understand why the governor and Steve Hart from the gaming commission and some of those other people are saying please don't.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: I understand what they wanted to but this is probably the worst time at the legislature with the controversy of the employee pay raise, alt fuels, the governor taking the plane to Salt Lake City while she told state employees to hand in your cell phones and turn up the heat, even though it's about 95 degrees now Governor Hull hull right now has not too much clout to be -- she's operating from the position of kind of weakness here, and law -- I know certain lawmakers, even Republicans, who might do the opposite of what she tells them. So an up or down vote isn't going to fly.

>> MICHAEL: On the other hand, from a political standpoint, did the legislature really want to invite the kind of ballot chaos that this could lead to, if you had a full-scale war going on between the tracks and the Indian tribes, not so much in terms of that issue, but how it motivates other constituency and who it pulls out to the polls and injects a whole lot of elements of uncertainty into November thatize would not be there.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: The legislature loves the balloting process. It let's them abdicate their responsibility and kick any difficult issue to the voters of Arizona. I don't see why they would shy away this time.

>> MICHAEL: No argument on that point but if you completely toss this thing, put your hand in the fate of somebody else and let them do the crafting, they like more the -- we carefully crafted this thing --

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: They like the tough ones like the pickup truck bill or dogs in pickup truck bill.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: Remember, this is a huge election year. So people at the legislature are so nervous Nelly about everything. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they do what Arizona has always done and send it to the ballot like mental health, redistricting, prop 301. Seems like almost every tough decision is hoisted onto the voters of Arizona rather than being decided at the capitol.

>> MICHAEL: Representatives and senators lined up to drop the bill and I guess we'll find out in the next couple months.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: It's interesting who Governor Hull had drop the bills, representative Jim Carruthers, and Herb Guenther who are kind of pragmatic, get it done senators well respected in both houses.

>> MICHAEL: This week a state representative found himself in trouble for crafting a super story. Why did state representative James KRAFT apologize?

>> CHIP SCUTARI: I hate to sound corny but I guess parts of his resume had as many holes as Swiss cheese. I had to get one corny line in. But what really happened was representative James KRAFT of North Central Phoenix was in the ways and means committee, and he openly bragged about going to the Super Bowl and that the New England patriots owner was his cousin. Now, turns out the owner of the patriots, who is Bob KRAFT doesn't know this man, isn't related to him, he wasn't sitting in the owner's box. He even said something to the effect of-- you know, bragging ing to his colleagues, my wife saw my bald spot in the owner's box, and it turned out to be absolutely false and when our reporter Robbie Sherwood looked into it further found out his connection to the KRAFT family was tenuous at best. He had also said during last November and December special session, while lawmakers were worrying about how to settle a billion dollar deficit, that he was negotiating big deals for KRAFT, which also terms out not to be true.

>> MICHAEL: This is weird. Did he go to the Duke TULLY school of resume drafting.

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: I think he may have. I might have to opt out of this. I do live in his district, and during campaigning he left a box of KRAFT macaroni and cheese, and I have to tell you my daughter it a ate it.

>> MICHAEL: You're declaring a conflict.

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: I'm declaring a conflict.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: The other thing that will be interesting is he said he would get 40,000 boxes of KRAFT macaroni and cheese and walk his district. He has an uphill fight anyway. He has a nasty four-way primary with representative Deb Gullett and Steve May and representative TULLY who are all well respected. It will be interested to see fit hurts his political chances if he runs for reelection.

>> MICHAEL: Seriously, all kidding to one side, he did, in fact, circulate 12,000 box of KRAFT macaroni and cheese.

>> DOUG MACEARCHERN: We were doing the math earlier.

>> MICHAEL: That's a chunk of change if, in fact -- I mean, everybody assumed he got them for free. This is really a strange Torry. -- story.

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: It is. I would like to see one member of the KRAFT family somewhere say, yeah, he's a distant cousin. Robbie did a fabulous job re searching the story and there wasn't anybody in the family that said they had heard of them.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: I would like to see one member of the legislature step up and express a little outrage but would that require some intelligence and integrity and they are both short in -- in short supply.

>> MICHAEL: The employee rally was pretty vigorous.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: Yeah, a lot bigger than I thought. According to capitol rail birds who have been down there a long time, clearly Bob Scott -- he said that was the biggest, loudest rally can he recall since 1990 when people were rallying for the MLK holiday. I mean there's a thousand pretty upset, pretty passionate state employees who were Marching around the capital square yelling up that he 9th floor saying Governor Hull listen to us, signs saying propane Jane, plain Jane, state employees left out in the rain. That was my favorite one. It's a big issue, the state employees have been shafted during the roaring '90s and now they want a little piece of their raise. It's an interesting debate and could it play out for the next two or three weeks.

>> MICHAEL: Were you stunned when employee appreciation day got postponed?

>> CHIP SCUTARI: I was shocked. Couldn't believe it. How could they do that?

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: My favorite part of that was the unnamed AG administrator who said that in the entire office they had sold 11 tickets and three of those went to homeless people. The whole thing is very similar to when the -- when the Diamondbacks chose fan appreciation day to jack up ticket prices.

>> MICHAEL: Oh, that's right.

>> That worked very well.

>> Tough scenario.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: The thing about it, though, is with the exception of the thousand people that showed up at the rally, you know, I have been talking about this on the radio show somewhat, there is very little if any sympathy for state workers. The Senate Democrats, house Democrats to a certain extent have kind of -- they got their Marching orders from the state workers union. I can't imagine what they're thinking because the average Joe throughout who works in a private business who has seen a salary cut or layoffs or is dealing with the effects of recession, what does he care about about whether a state worker gets a 5% raise, quite honestly?

>> MICHAEL: In the meantime, I guess this is, what, day seven regular session held hostage. Are they making any progress or are they just at all stopped?

>> CHIP SCUTARI: No, basically on Thursday the Senate was ready to pass their budget plan and then two hours later Senate Democrats drew a line in the sand and said we want this 5% pay raise for state employees or we're not budging. So they quit until Monday, and looks like Monday they're going to start over again. The Senate Democrats' point is that we shouldn't just -- this shouldn't be an either/or proposition, there are other pots of money that could be used to solve this crisis and that for Governor Hull and house Republicans to say it's all about employee pay raise or pink slips is disingenuous and that's their point. They say they can find other must not ee and these employees deserve this money even though David doesn't care about the plight of the poor state workers.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: I would lay off 10% right now. Let's balance the budge oat their backs.

>> MICHAEL: Understood, but the issue does remain that it's $100 million gorilla which is 10% of the billion-dollar problem, as soon as they tie this one up that they've got to turn their attention to. Is senator Cirillo's proposal a compromise proposal to do 2 1/2 and lock it in at the end of the year, do you think that can gain traction.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: I think, including the house speaker, like the plan. It's kind of a -- some carrot to the state employees. I think as the week moves on that might gain steam. Otherwise, Senate Democrats are finally saying we'll wait until April 1st and state employees get the raise then. So it's really -- who is going to flinch first. Kind of like a showdown --

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: What else do those guys have to do, the Senate Democrats? Do they have any power? I must be unaware of it?

>> CHIP SCUTARI: Actually they do --

>> I understand.

>> MICHAEL: It's 15 --

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: Senator Gnant has told me about it, on several occasions, every time I see him.

>> MICHAEL: In the meantime, all sorts of regular session business sauce penned. I've got to believe that 65 days to do the budget, which was the legislative goal and for that matter, 100 days to get out of there, isn't looking real likely.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: Yeah, that's done. But the ironic thing about this is 2002 budget was about a $200 million problem. Now it's supposed to be the easy part. They are still stairing -- staring at a billion dollar deficit in '03. Who knows what will happen. I think this session will drag out until mid-june, but the '02 budget will be probably delayed two weeks, committee hearings will be delayed. But some people like David might say a standstill at thest state house is a good thing because no bills can be passed.

>> MICHAEL: There is something to be said for gridlock?

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: Every Arizona's best friend, Michael, there's no question.

>> MICHAEL: No gridlock on 200 inmates being released early?

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: I have to say, congratulations to our hosts at ASU for putting on this fine program but I find it fascinating -- this is a great case because apparently three ASU law professors, including the former Dean of the law school, these are guys that get paid with taxpayer money for the most part, they have worked vigorously on this case for several years against the interest of the Arizona tax payers to free a bunch of guys serving life sentences and stuff like that over an allegedly illegible signature and questionable tactics by the former governor Fife Symington, who obviously has a lot of experience with pardons, so I find it difficult to believe this went the way indict.

>> MICHAEL: As I understand it, the problem here was a very technical problem that the governor himself -- governor Symington at that time did not sigh the order?

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: Passed it along to an aide who signed it ill legibly.

>> MICHAEL: On his express instruction.

>> And not on gubernatorial stationery.

>> Michael: Would it have helped if they used the auto-signer?

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: Probably wouldn't have been a bad -- you know, obviously the former governor is making the case in the media over the past couple days this is liberal activist judges at work here, and, you know, Symington was never one for clemency for anybody except for him several. It's interesting to see how this will play out in the courts. Be more interesting to see if Janet Napolitano decides to step into the fray.

>> MICHAEL: Doug, at this point in time, the Attorney General has indicated, no, I don't think I'll get in that? The supreme court opinion seems rather clear.

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: That's wait I understand it.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: This is why some people who can't stand lawyers because people --

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: Some people? Most people.

>> MICHAEL: That's fair.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: Nothing against you, Michael.

>> MICHAEL: This week the Phoenix city council voted to get out of the Arizona Cardinals stadium sweepstakes, in part because of the requirement of a roll-out field. However, upon further review, Phoenix may get back in the hunt. Doug, why the sudden change of direction, possibly?

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: Well, it's hard to understand exactly what drove a 7-0 vote against the stadium in the first place. It's not as though they didn't know the stadium as configured with the roll-out field and, I guess, the parking structures they were after, wouldn't fit on the space they were looking for. The problem was trying to find some sort of arrangement with the Cardinals to expand the area, to get more land in order to make the whole thing work. It seemed as though -- the -- the councilmembers working from a lot of different agendas. Some were complaining they didn't know where their contribution of $60 million would be coming from in the first place. Others were saying they were upset over the tenor of conversations with the tourism and sports authority. Apparently there was a snotty letter exchanged. So it was out the door because of that. So they voted to bag the whole thing and not have a vote. Then they changed their mind.

>> MICHAEL: A few of them concerned because, of course, the residents down there, certain of them in the immediate vicinity and a couple of their advisory councils, have not exactly been nuts about this downtown stadium location.

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: No, they haven't been. And I think a lot of that is driven by the fact that everyone knew that this stadium as -- on this -- what was it, 23 acres of land? Really did not fit. And it would be a mammoth big bowl of concrete set on that narrow configuration. What they're talking about now is something that would be, I think, a lot more amenable to the neighborhood, something that they may even like?

>> MICHAEL: This is the downtown Phoenix partnership?

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: Depends on who you are talking to. Interesting dialogue here. If you talk to, say, the Mayor of Phoenix,'s driving these people back to the table. If you talk to the downtown Phoenix partnership and the business community, they're driving people to the table to talk over what their options may be. I understand they're in some pretty hot negotiations, whoever is driving to the table and they will be going after it all weekend.

>> MICHAEL: Is there any possibility of someone simply driving off the cliff?

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: Oh, that's always a possibility. But -- lightning may flash in a bottle. Something may come of it.

>> MICHAEL: Now, we had been told earlier that Wednesday, I think it was, was the absolute drop dead, we got to make a decision in order to get this on the May ballot to get funds approved, and then on Thursday, whoops, it turns out that that was not a deadline. That's like a soft deadline imposed by the TSA?

>> It's like one of those TSA deadlines.

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: That's the drop dead but don't hit the ground deadline. The actual put you in the ground deadline is -- apparently they had some leeway because they have to turn the ballot language over to the Justice Department for review, and this being an issue that doesn't tread specifically on civil rights issues, I guess the Justice Department -- they felt uncomfortable that justices would have time to review it.

>> MICHAEL: At least the concept going on, and I realize you get two or three different stories as you already indicated depending upon who you talk to, but is the thrust here, well, if the Cardinals would participate stronger financially in exchange for surrounding development rights -- yeah, I think what they're talking about is something very similar to what happened in Tempe. That the Cardinals would put -- bring the upfront money which is necessary because Phoenix frankly is not going to go over that threshold and so somebody's got to come up with the cash and the only person that I think standing there with big bucket full is bill Bidwill.

>> CHIP SCUTARI: Wait, this is the Arizona Cardinals we're talking about, right, that's been in the playoff once in 15 years? I just wanted to make sure who we are talking about.

>> MICHAEL: You were just clarifying.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: But he makes an interesting point. When you bring up -- This topic is death on the radio and it's death when I have written about in the newspaper. I'm amazed at the notion that this is somehow going to pass City of Phoenix voters if they're expected to foot any of the $60 million or any additional money. It seems to meet the Cardinals, not unlike the governor, have that reverse Midas touch at work and everything they touch disappears like water.

>> MICHAEL: For the general election, although and I certainly thought the same thing, I think they pulled off a 50 -- 52% of the vote.

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: Look at all the lying it took to the voters to do that. Going to be tough this time around.

>> MICHAEL: One of the distinctions, though, David, might be that this would be a very short time frame kind of election whereas you had a nice long ramp up period in the November --

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: I agree. The Cardinals would dump an enormous amount of money into the race, and "The Arizona Republic" editorial page would continue to carry their water and there wouldn't be a lot of "no" voters who would be prominent in terms of discourse --

>> MICHAEL: In the meantime, the 101/202 site is not exactly a juggernaut. They can't quite seem to knit all that together either.

>> DOUG MACEACHERN: My favorite characterization is by Mesa Mayor Keno Hawker who has never lost that deer-in-the-headlights look that says, I don't know I don't know where the money is coming from. And Neal Giuliano always looking over his shoulder going, oh, God, please help me shut him up. I don't know where that one is going either. But I suspect that while there are hot and heavy negotiations going on among -- that include the Cardinals for this downtown site, there are also commensurate discussions going on with some of the other sites, probably including the Mesa site.

>> MICHAEL: All right. We won't even talk about TSA deadlines because apparently --

>> DAVID LEIBOWITZ: It could change tomorrow.

>> MICHAEL: Panelists we're out of time. It was an interesting week. Thank you very much. To see a transcript of tonight's show, or to share your views or contact us, please visit the Channel 8 website at www.kaet.asu.edu, click on "Horizon" on the left side of the screen, and then follow the links. Monday on "Horizon," we'll tell you about skyrocketing home valuations and how you can appeal. Tuesday, several bills to regulate homeowners associations under the works. We'll tell you more about those. Wednesday we'll take an in-depth look at those new gaming compacts that David likes so much between Indian tribes and the state. That next week on "Horizon." Thanks very much for being here on a Friday. I'm Michael Grant. Have a good one. Good night.