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December 26, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
Arizona's political cartoonists review their work for 2002
In-Studio Guests:
Steve Benson, "The Arizona Republic;"
Brian Ferrington, "The Arizona Republic;"
Mike Ritter, "Tribune" newspapers.

>> Reporter: They are the men behind the pens. They take the news and force it through the point of a pen with the results that can inform, incite or make you laugh. They are political cartoonists. Tonight meet cartoonists Steve Benson of "The Arizona republic". Brian Ferrington of "The Republic," and Tribune cartoonist Mike Ritter.

>> Michael: Good evening, welcome to a special edition of "Horizon." I'm Michael Grant. Here to showcase their wit and cartoons are Steve Benson of "The Arizona Republic," Brian Ferrington of "The Republic," and "Tribune" newspaper cartoonist, Mike Ritter. Gentlemen, we've got to stop meeting like this.

>> Michael: Okay. Before we get to the cartoons, Steve, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being most awesome subject matter year for a cartoonist, how do you rank 2002.

>> Steve Benson: It's been a tough year in a way because we're still in kind of the aftermath of 9/11. But the tough years are more challenging years and the more challenging years, the better you can do in your work. Thanks to Mr. Ashcraft, I'd say it's been a great year.

>> Steve: You get people concerned about security and threats abroad and I think that their humor gene dissipates in direct proportion to threats facing the nation.

>> Michael: Brian, good year, bad year?

>> Brian Fairrington: It's been a good year. A lot of good subjects. A lot of carry-over from 9/11. That'll continue for next few years. The war is going on. It's been a good year for subject matter, definitely. Very interesting and a lot of different factions in terms of the issues and so on.

>> Michael: The election always helps some.

>> Brian: Absolutely.

>> Michael: You know, hurts the rest of the country but helps political cartoons.

>> Mike, what do you think?

>> Mike Ritter: It's been the best year for cartooning since I've been in the business, honestly. We've had good issues, unlike last year when everybody was walking on glass, bombing buildings was bad. This year, there were weighty issues as opposed to sex in the White House and things like that. Important issues that people really disagreed on, issues of war and peace. Issues of what does it mean to be an American. What does our security and freedoms mean. Those are great issues. There have been some great cartoons done by the people at this table and in the business as a whole.

>> Michael: I thought DNA testing on blue dresses was pretty good.

>> Mike: Once you've drawn a DNA spattered blue dress that's all --

>> Steve: You got to do that? Who is your editor?

>> Mike: What day is it?

>> Michael: Let's move to weapons inspections, a major subject du jour. Steve, knock, knock?

>> Steve: Who's there? U.N. U.N.who? U.N. big trouble. Saddam understands that Bush is going to attack him anyway. I do believe he has cooperated in a reasonable degree. The Whitehouse says, well, there are problems with the 10,000 page report, but they won't tell us what the problems are. And I'm all for, you know, getting into Iraq and making sure that he's complying with U.N. mandates, but the fix is in, folks, let's roll.

>> Michael: What's the reference to CIA cash right under Saddam?

>> Steve: Oh, well, Mr. Rumsfeld and Mr. Saddam go back a long ways. They were good buddies in the 1980s. The U.S. was funneling money to Iraq to help the Iraqis against Iran. We created our own monsters. Put the battery clamps on his studs and zap him up because we're the one that charged the battery.

>> Michael: Brian, I don't think you think that Saddam is going to be completely open and forthcoming on this?

>> Brian: No, not at all. He's going to continue to do what they've done before, and that's shift things around and, you know -- but I think -- like Steve said, he sees the writing on the wall. Unless -- unless in his life there is a miracle, I think war is inevitable. Like they said today, why would he want to cooperate? Because the writing is on the wall.

>> Michael: It's a nice lamp. I like the lamp.

>> Brian: You can get those at Macy's actually.

>> Brian: A lot like your hair.

>> Michael: Target.

>> Michael: I call this next one Mike's maze.

>> Mike: This was fun to draw, but I have to disagree with my friend and colleague. I don't believe that Saddam is complying. I think although I want to hear more details, in fact I'm doing a cartoon for next week of Bush standing at a podium saying "I'm thinking of a violation between 1 and 10." Our government does need to come out and be more specific, but there are things that we knew he had in '98 that suddenly aren't there anymore, and they are unaccounted for in this report. We're going to find out where the omissions are in this report. And he's not cooperating.

>> Michael: Is it possible he sent them to North Korea?

>> Mike: I think personally they are in Canada.

>> Steve: If we had Yemen deliver them to Iraq, we would give them a pass.

>> Michael: All right. Now, "spOILING for a fight," Steve?

>> Steve: Well, it's clear to me that ultimately -- let's get things straight here. I'm not in favor of terrorism, for the record, okay? I'm not in favor of slaughtering 3,000 innocent people.

>> Michael: You want to get that off the table?

>> Steve: Get that off the table. Why are we intruding in the political and domestic affairs of other countries? Because they have what we want, raw materials. As one war protester said on a sign the other day, what is our oil doing under their sand? That's the bottom line. That's why we're there, to stabilize the Middle East and tell the Iraqis what kind of government we want for them.

>> Brian: For the record, Steve is the only one that drives an SUV, by the way.

>> Steve: I don't drive an SUV, I drive a Jeep Wrangler.

>> Brian: That gets what kind the gas mileage?

>> Steve: 22 on the highway.

>> Michael: You traded in the Hummer?

>> Steve: Yeah. I'd like to hum "give peace a chance" if I could.

>> Michael: The point is George W. is playing to an empty house?

>> Brian: Right. He hasn't got Allied support besides Britain. If we changed our mind, they would change their mind, too. So -- but I think we're going to do it anyway. I think he's preaching to an empty house in terms of trying to get people on the bandwagon and other countries, but it's not going to matter. We're going to do it solo.

>> Michael: Tony Blair has been distracted by his problem with his wife recently.

>> Brian: Exactly.

>> Steve: the linchpin is Luxembourg. Once we pull them in, we're going for it.

>> Michael: And Mike, you're sounding kind of a similar theme in this cartoon. Are you trying to figure out what we're doing, I guess?

>> Mike: This cartoon was done earlier this year. As I said earlier, I think our government has not made a good enough explanation why we need to go in there, if in fact that's what we're going to do. We have to do that. We have to bring the U.N. and the rest of the world with us and we have to make the case. I am not so certain -- I'm concerned about the repercussions of this war and what this could mean in the long run, but I'm also very disturbed by those who simply dismiss Saddam as, well, he's just a different form of government or that it's just all about oil, as I drive to work, it's all about oil, our damn dependence on oil. He is a threat to our economy and the entire region. Yeah, if he has his weapons, we need to know about it. If we're going to go in there, if this is going to happen, our government has got to make a better case for it. And they haven't done that yet.

>> Steve: Let me get this straight. Our national security is so important in terms of oil, that we need to send our young men and women to die to keep gas at $1.29 a gallon?

>> Mike: I don't want to walk to work.

>> Mike: Just as I said 11 years ago, yeah, I think stability in the Middle East and the repercussions -- all wars are about the economy.

>> Steve: Uh-huh.

>> Mike: That's what's so horrible about them.

>> Michael: I'm not sure about that point, but I want to know where you're buying gas. The cheapest I can get is $1.43.

>> Steve: Out in Gilbert, you have to make your own.

>> Michael: Obviously some controversy about where precisely the royal family of Saudi Arabia falls.

>> Steve: We have it at the highest levels of the Saudi government that they are funneling money through their charities to terrorist groups like Al-Qaeda. We seem to be accepting of that, and it's amazing what kinds of "sons of riches," so to speak, we will go to bed with in order to advance our own territorial ambitions.

>> Michael: Mike, you've got the same theme.

>> Mike: This is the same concept.

>> Mike: It is true. We don't hold our allies, you know, our expedient allies, and you are right about our complicity in helping Saddam. These are all true. I guess where I have a hard time understanding your general foreign policy is that it seems somewhat completely isolationist. We shouldn't make friends with anyone who isn't pure and we shouldn't criticize another government? I guess I've had trouble finding an overarching concept.

>> Steve: Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds. You are a lawyer. He just set me up for a straw man, can we object over this?

>> Michael: I don't think so. I'd have to overrule it if you did object. So really, it would --

>> Mike: Pacifists are only interested in peace for the next five minutes.

>> Steve: I'm not a pacifist. I'm in favor of self-defense in the immediate threat of --

>> Mike: You used that word in the last war.

>> Michael: He's a Jeffersonian in that regard.

>> Steve: I don't believe -- I believe that if we have an immediate threat to our national security and survival, then we certainly should use lethal force. I see neither one of those applying in this case.

>> Michael: At the risk of getting back to cartoons, Brian, let's go to the classroom and some simple math in relation to this equation.

>> Brian: One of the underlying reasons why the Arab world doesn't like us is because of our support of Israel. That's clear. And they don't see a distinction between the two countries. A lot of them feel we're just one big --

>> Michael: Happy family.

>> - Brian: ideology wrapped up against them. I don't believe that, but they do.

>> Michael: When you do a cartoon like this -- and I'll ask this question about another subject too -- does your E-mail, voice mail spike?

>> Brian: It does, particularly from Arab Americans who want to, you know, send me a 10-paragraph E-mail about how wrong I am and they don't believe that or educate me on the evils of Israel and why they believe that. And so you get that, absolutely.

>> Michael: Steve, the martyr bombings over there, I just --

>> Steve: I don't see the Palestinian Arab leadership being particularly concerned about the long-term interests or longevity per se of their people. I mean, when you get the Palestinian Authority in complicity with Iraq in paying thousands of dollars to families whose children are martyred, I don't think this bodes well for long-term stability, for the interests of the people there. Unfortunately, these children are being used by extremists in the Palestinian leadership to advance their own cause and that is anti-Israeli.

>> Michael: Congratulations Mike, you are in full agreement with Steve --

>> Mike: I so often am, too.

>> Michael: -- on this subject. Do either one of you want to take back your cartoon?

>> Steve: Not at all. I look to my elders for guidance.

>> Michael: "Congratulations, it's a martyr." All right, let's shift to homeland security and, Mike, in fact, I think all three of you will sound essentially the same theme, that being are we sacrificing liberty for security.

>> Mike: I think we absolutely are. I think we are on a bullet train towards that. And it scares me tremendously. I can't tell you how many times I'm sure the same is true with the "Republic" that people get saying I've got nothing to hide, let them come on in and search my computer, search -- and it's terrifying. That's where this came from. My favorite touch is the rubber glove.

>> Michael: Brian, you've got the same, obviously, large eye looking --

>> Brian: Right. I think part of the homeland security bill is the -- they can gather together all personal information. They say it's for, you know, anti-terrorist measures, but you know, the common American citizen, they can have all of their information gathered together in one database, and if anybody were to get a hold of that, I mean, anybody that reads into that, it makes you uneasy. It's hard to argue why the government is dead set on doing that.

>> Michael: A loose paraphrase, Steve, if you are willing to sacrifice security for freedom, you end up with neither?

>> Steve: Right. Ben Franklin said that, I believe. But sure, we've got Ashcroft who wants to basically throw the Constitution, you know, into the dumpster. His people in the Justice Department put an $8,000 purple curtain over the "Spirit of Justice" statue which was bare breasted in front of which Ashcroft was giving his born-again sermons on the need for homeland security.

>> Michael: It's the official site for the Justice Department press conference.

>> Steve: Now it's the official blue curtain over what used to be an attractive sight.

>> Steve: That happened in the '20s or '30s.

>> Michael: That's right.

>> Steve: So when you've got over a thousand people in jail right now with no charges against them and indefinite detention, I think the Constitution is really on the rocks.

>> Mike: He is the best thing to happen to cartooning since Nixon, John Ashcroft.

>> Michael: Steve, this was another area I wanted to ask each of you whether or not your E-mails and voice mails spike when you run a cartoon like this about Bishop O'Brien.

>> Steve: You know, I anticipated that we would get a lot of negative response from it from Catholics across the country on this general issue of priestly pedophilia, but what I think is very telling is that I'm not getting a whole lot of negative response. The reason is, the Catholic church doesn't have a leg to stand on here. There is absolutely no excuse for this cover-up. I think it borders on criminal culpability. Even the most faithful are at a loss for a good defense here, even with you as their attorney. Especially with you as their attorney.

>> Michael: That's right. It goes without saying.

>> Michael: Brian, this is a hard-hitting cartoon, but --

>> Brian: Like Steve said, I was surprised I didn't get a few E-mails here, but not what you have received outside of the scandal, I think that the public is just -- like Steve said, the Catholic church doesn't have a leg to stand on, and the public is sick of it. It's not seen as criticisms, it's taking the priests out to the woodshed for a good spanking, no pun intended.

>> Steve: They would like that, actually.

>> Brian: Yeah, they would like that.

>> Michael: Mike, the Vatican's solution to this problem, a cold shower?

>> Mike: A cold shower. This was earlier in the year when they were really, really stonewalling before they convened the --

>> Steve: This is a brilliant cartoon, when you take two completely opposite physical objects and meld them together.

>> Steve: It's like cartoonist on the brain.

>> Mike: I actually did a cartoon about O'Brien earlier this week. I got a lot of calls. There is something about them very specific. Just from the words they used, "blasphemer", things like that. I can tell it's from the remnant. It's from the absolute die -- the ones who really want to pretend it's not there. The vast majority of the Catholic laity is revolted by this. And they are clipping these out.

>> Michael: Let's pick up a few election 2002 cartoons. I love this cartoon, just the art of it. My feeling is that the Rs feel about Pelosi, the same way the Ds feel about Trent Lott.

>> Mike: The Democrats are just forgive him. They want to see him in forever just like the Republicans were very excited to see Pelosi to take his position. They want the hardliners to say see what the other side is putting forth.

>> Michael: I get the impression that you had a lot of fun drawing her face.

>> Mike: Oh, yeah, caricatures just come together.

>> Mike: I messed up, I realized on Thanksgiving day that I had drawn the skeleton completely wrong, so...

>> Michael: Oh, really?

>> Michael: It'll be our secret.

>> Mike: Not anymore.

>> Michael: Brian, this goes back to that rash of signage that --

>> Brian: The Governor's race, I thought whether or not Janet pegged signs in the dirt herself, I thought bringing your religion into the whole thing was ridiculous, the other guy, what's his name? The guy that tried to drag religion into it.

>> Dick Mahoney.

>> Brian: I thought it was cheap. So I had a little fun. I had trouble getting this in the paper. This came out the same week that the Republic backed Napolitano.

>> Michael: This was a good cut.

>> Steve: The Democrats made the tactical error of trying to portray themselves as moderate Republicans. If they are going to come across as moderate Republicans, we've already got a moderate Republican in the Whitehouse, so, the populists didn't see a need to make a definite shift. Democrats ought to stake out a position deep left and center, fight for it, stand by it, and say that they are for the people on civil rights, on social rights and make no excuses for it. Otherwise, they are just Jell-O.

>> Michael: Rodeo-Chediski fire, I assume this cartoon came out at the time the U.S. Attorney's office decided not to prosecute.

>> Steve: Mr. Charlton came to the conclusion that Ms. Elliott had in fact told the truth. She was genuinely lost. It would be difficult to fault her for setting a signal fire. When the TV helicopter pilot came to rescue her, she said, what about that fire, is someone going to take care of it. Nobody looked at it for another two hours, and by that time it was out of control. If you are out in the wild and you are abandoned and distressed, what is so unreasonable about setting a signal fire? All of these people want her head and the rest of her body.

>> Brian: What's so unreasonable about destroying the environment?

>> Steve: She's not criminally culpable for it.

>> Brian: Tell that to somebody when you back into them. You have to be responsible.

>> Brian: Didn't she light love letters?

>> Steve: No, that was in Colorado. I'm glad you are up on the news.

>> Mike: I will give more credit to someone trying to save their life than someone who is holding a bizarre Pagan ritual against their ex-boyfriend.

>> Michael: You're going back to the '60s and '70s for the portrayal here. Did you spend a lot of ink on these cartoons?

>> Mike: A lot of ink. I used a good friend of ours, clay Bennett, as a model, another cartoonist, but this was basically talking about forest management. There is a certain element in the environmental world that doesn't want to touch the forest at all. And they've got the forest tied up in any kind of thinning, any kind of management that would help prevent these out-of-control fires. They are not going to allow it because they don't want man treading in there at all. The result is this out-of-control growth such as this fellow's hair here.

>> Michael: Steve, you and Brian taking different approaches on the smoking ban in Tempe. Your cartoon?

>> Steve: I'm of the position that these are public facilities. They are licensed by the Health Department. If you are going to run a facility that's open to the public, then you have to comply by certain health laws and allowing for this to be kind of the gag central and tumor city is just something that I don't think that is in the long-term interests of the municipalities.

>> Michael: Too much of an impact on small businesses is your point?

>> Brian: Unlike Steve, I don't believe bars are a totally public place. They discriminate. They don't allow certain adults. They don't allow 18, 19 and 20-year-olds, and they allowed 21-year-old adults. Children aren't allowed in bars. I agree that smoking bans should be in restaurants, but in bars, I think it's silly, particularly on Mill Avenue when they are having financial problems as it is. To put this on, it's really ridiculous.

>> Michael: The Ted Williams thing was just bizarre, Steve. This is a bizarre cartoon.

>> Steve: It's brilliant. Doing cartoons on Ted Williams' bizarreness is redundant. He is reposing peacefully in some Scottsdale refrigerator and you've got his son who can't make it in the big leagues trying to use his dead dad to line his own pockets. It's unbelievable, but on late night TV, I swear to goodness, the Ted Williams bobble head doll.

>> Michael: I love the cable con TV.

>> Steve: That was a nice touch.

>> Michael: Mike, this one right around the possible, which did not foolish baseball strike.

>> Mike: We can go to war as long as we still have our baseball. And this pretty much speaks for itself. I have a real hard time shedding a tear over the labor woes of multi-millionaires.

>> Michael: And I think most fans are right there with you. And finally, returning to the Ted Williams theme, Brian?

>> Brian: Ultimate baseball memorabilia, I've got to have one for Christmas, you know, it's one of those issues, particularly -- what made this issue so great is it was a national issue but it was in our back yard. It was fun to do, and --

>> Steve: In fact, Ted Williams is buried in your back yard.

>> Brain: He's buried in my back yard, yeah.

>> Michael: The fact that it stares back at you is a little creepy.

>> Michael: On that creepy note, Brian Ferrington, thanks for joining us. Mike Ritter, good to see you. Steve Benson, always a pleasure.

>> Steve: Good to be here with the cartoonist Munsters.

>> Michael: Have a great 2003.

>> Michael: Our thanks to you as well for joining us on this edition of "Horizon." I hope you're having a happy holiday season. I'm Michael Grant. Have a good one. Good night.