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December 18, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topics:
Six-month anniversary of the Rodeo-Chediski fire
In-Studio Guests:
David Cummings, U.S. Forest Service,
Robert LaCapa, Bureau of Indian Affairs and director of the White Mountain Apache forestry program

>> Michael: Tonight on "Horizon," two human-caused forest fires grew to become the most devastating in state history. On this the six-month anniversary of the start of the Rodeo-Chediski fire, a look at how those hardest hit have recovered. Plus, why the race is on to salvage burnt timber before it is too late. Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon." A member of the White Mountain Apache tribe is accused of starting the rodeo fire June 18, two days late ear lost woman started another fire, the Chediski. The two fires merged within days and burned out of control for almost three weeks. At one point, the fire front stretched for 50 miles and had flames shooting hundreds of feet in the air. The Rodeo-Chediski fire forced the evacuation of an estimated 30,000 people, including residents of Show Low in eastern Arizona. By the time it was out, the fire had destroyed some 467,000 acres of forest, the majority on the White Mountain Apache reservation. The Rodeo-Chediski fire burned about 460 structures, no one was killed. It cost the federal government more than $48 million to suppress the fire and an additional $10 million was spent on emergency rehabilitation. The Rodeo-Chediski fire took its toll on the White Mountains in a number of ways. In the Heber Overgaard area alone, 291 homes were lost. Paul Atkinson and photographer Carol Lynde show us how the people have bounced back, but also how questions remain about the future of the area's forests.

>> Reporter: Danny Rogers is in the early stages of building a new house. He lost his home to the Rodeo-Chediski fire. Rogers hopes his house would be further along but a county inspector delayed his permits.

>> Danny Rogers: This foundation should have been done months ago. It's just -- it's been tough.

>> Reporter: Tough doesn't even begin to describe what Rogers and his family went through. This is what was left of their property after flames swept through this unincorporated area of Heber-Overgaard. The Rogers lost their home and just about everything else. Other neighbors suffered the same fate. But the blackened trees and shells of homes that littered the surrounding area six months ago have been replaced by new homes and cleared lots.

>> Rogers: Most people are, you know, come to terms with the fact it's happened and over with and done and moving on with their lives, building new houses. Like us, we're kind of excited to have a new house, but we could have lived our whole lives without this without a doubt. This will never be the same place, the property will never be the same, the forest will never be the same. As long as we live, it will never be the same place we moved to.

>> Reporter: Rogers and other residents feared property values would plummet after the fire. Not so, says real estate agent, Jim Burton.

>> Jim Burton: Our economy and our real estate market is real strong and under -- in the under $200,000 market. My business personally is up between 6 and 10% end of November this year versus end of November of 2001. The upper end market has slowed down a little bit but we attribute that more to the national economy, a meltdown of the stock market more than a forest fire.

>> Reporter: Construction booms at by sun ranch. Fire destroyed many of the cabins that back up to the edge of the Apache-Sitgreaves national forest. The remains of the charred cabins are gone. New homes in various phases of construction in their place. Blackened trees on forest land beyond the cabins serve as a reminder of a fire that charred the physical beauty of the rim country but could not break the spirit of the people who call it home.

>> Burton: I feel we're stronger as a community today than we were last year with no fire. It's brought us together. We're doing things that -- as a group we've never done before.

>> Reporter: Case in point, the community annually collects and distributes Christmas gifts for needy families. But has never seen the outpour young of support its Santa kids program enjoys this year.

>> Burton: It's amazing the amount of money and gifts and toys coming in from all over the state for Santa's kids program in Heber-Overgaard and the people in Heber-Overgaard to have the money to donate to this program that we are receiving. It's so much more than we had last year.

>> Reporter: The Heber-Overgaard area has also received more than $200,000 in donations for victims of the fire. Plus assistance from various charities. The people who live here will bounce back. The forest around them is another matter.

>> Burton: I'm not worried about the people. I'm not worried about the economy of the area. It will come back. And in fact it's strong now. We're not too worried about that. Some of the small jobs are not there, but that will come back. The future of the forest, it will take years before these big trees that got burned will ever come back again.

>> Reporter: A local company whose owners once logged timber cleans up along highway 260 several miles east of Heber Overgaard.

>> Dean Reidhead: I have lived here all my life and to see something like this, it kind of wipes -- blows your mind, wipes you out. You just didn't ever think it would happen.

>> Reporter: The Rodeo-Chediski fire left few trees alive along this section of road.

>> Reidhaed: What we basically did is we went through and cut everything that was burnt heavy with fire. If there was any green left in any of the trees or anything like that, we left those hoping they will live.

>> Reporter: For Dean, the work is bittersweet.

>> Reidhead: It always makes you feel good to kind of help clean up and stuff like that, but you always hate to see something like this, especially when -- in my opinion, it could have been prevented.

>> Reporter: The Rodeo-Chediski fire burned for almost three weeks, destroying 467,000 acres of timber. The majority on the White Mountain Apache reservation. Salvage efforts are already under way on Apache land. Minimal salvage work will soon begin on forest land to clear burned trees in recreation areas along trails and near homes.

>> Kate Klein: We are in the process right now of preparing some salvage timber sales. We hope to have those offered in the next few weeks, have the work approved and the sales offered in the next few weeks. So that will be the first phase of salvage.

>> Reporter: Before large scale salvage work can begin on federal lands, an environmental impact statement, or E.I.S., must be approved.

>> Klein: An E.I.S. can take us a year or two years to do, so we've been on a very accelerated schedule. We have a team that is dedicated full time to doing the analysis, and working quite a bit of overtime to get that done, and we're actually trying to complete that E.I.S. from the date of the fire it would be slightly less an year.

>> Reporter: The fact, it may take so long before burnt timber can be logged on federal land does not sit well with some local residents.

>> Reidhead: If that doesn't get -- take place pretty soon, by this time next year, a lot of this wood is going to be no good, especially the smaller diameter stuff that's already starting to blue, the value of it is going to go way down, and it's just not going to be worth that much.

>> Reporter: Government red tape kept Danny Rogers from being further along in building a new home to replace the one lost in the fire. When he looks at the nearby forest, he fears the same thing may prevent valuable timber from being salvaged.

>> Rogers: Would like to see some of the hurdles that the Forest Service is going through -- I mean, there's no sense in it. There's a lot of wasted resource out there, that's just going to rot by the time they get through the courts and the red tape.

>> Michael: Joining me is David coming of the U.S. Forest Service. Mr. Coming is the Rodeo-Chediski salvage manager, also here is Robert LaCapa of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Mr. LaCapa is the director of the White Mountain Apache forestry program. It does make you sad, David, has the -- and permanence probably too long a word, but has the face of the forest permanently been changed up there for our lifetimes?

>> David Cummings: Yes, it has. It will be hundreds of years probably before some of it will really come back to the way it was before the fire.

>> Michael: I got you. Robert, I seem to recall last time that we were talking you were focussing on immediate pressing concerns such as -- well, trying to make sure the soil didn't erode, things like that. I take it those activities continued for the summer?

>> Robert Lacapa: They continued, and the majority of them had been completed. We're about 50% complete on the mulching effort which we sort of adopted the Forest Service's approach on being able to do it in efficient manner. So we've got another 9,000 acres to be able to finish out that portion of it. We feel like we can get that early this spring.

>> Michael: Describe, Dave, the various forms that those efforts take, the immediate sort of restoration and preservation efforts that you do.

>> David: Right after the fire, fire teams were still in the area to do some rehab of the fire lines they built to help slow that fire down, so that was the initial work they did, they put in water bars along the roads to divert the water off those fire lines and went back through and seed add lot of that country. Then we have a burn area rehab team come in and do the immediate next step and that's going through and seeding the area, mulching certain parts of areas where they had sensitive soils, went through and mulched a lot of that country and they actually went in and cut down some of the trees that were potential -- were really damaged that could fall down and erode -- on a road for maybe somebody driving by. They moved a lot of that timber out also. They went through and worked on the roads. What happens, the fire came in June, and the monsoon season was soon to follow, which it did come in, and so then you have -- with no vegetation on the soil to hold that water back, we had quite a bit of flooding that occurred. So they went through and did a lot of road work to remove the culverts so when the debris comes down those drainages, it wouldn't get bound up against those culverts. So they actually moved those out and put low-water crossings in the roads so water could flow through freely without any damage there.

>> Michael: Robert, I remember talking with you about -- on the one hand you needed the water, we really need the water, but you didn't want a lot of water in the monsoon season and you really didn't get a lot of water.

>> Robert: We got two significant storms that knocked us out pretty bad and had a major effect on the town of Cibecue and had a minor effect on the town of CARIZZO. It had to evacuate two separate times before a lot of folks found other places to stay temporarily. Since then, they've been let back into their homes, which were really right down on the confluence of two drainages. The town of Cibecue did receive significant increase in water flow down near the community, and fortunately there was enough warning where a lot of the residents were aware of it. So they were able to just sort of let the water come and let it flow through.

>> Michael: On an area-wide basis, though, taking into account those incidents, it was not overall a particularly vigorous monsoon season?

>> Robert: No, not as much as we expected it to be. We didn't get as much as we thought we were going to get.

>> Michael: Dave, I realize you're not a meteorologist, but so far, at least we've had a couple of storms, I suppose -- are you guys hopeful that maybe you'll get some snowpack up there and get some moisture and those kinds of things?

>> David: That would be probably the best thing right now, start breaking down some of those effects of the drought and start breaking that cycle down. We do know there's some predictions of El Nino setting up and providing us quite a bit of moisture later in the winter but wait and see how that occurs.

>> Michael: We have got a map that we'll throw up here and I would like both of you to comment on. We think about the fire as a wall of flame, and certainly in many areas it was, but it really did not burn uniformly. Looking at this map, Robert, why don't you go first. Tell us what we're seeing here in terms of the burn areas.

>> Robert: Primarily I think what you're looking at is the burn intensity for the given areas that you have on the fire, it appears the areas that are in sort of a light pastel pink color, those areas probably were lower intensity burn than the areas in blue. Pretty much where that corresponds to the reservation lands, we see those areas have been a little more intensively managed, little bit of timber harvesting, thinning, also prescribed burning.

>> Michael: In fact, the tribes' forest management efforts were credited with a lot -- I know stories were told about there would be certain areas where the flames would be at 100 feet and would hit some of those areas and drop to 5 or 10, which is manageable. More of those kinds of efforts this spring or are you so focused on salvage and other operations that you really don't have to worry a lot right now about forest management?

>> Robert: We don't have -- we don't have the luxury of being able to worry about the forest management part of it. Our main focus is primarily still on the latter end of rehab and then also into our salvaging opportunities that we have going on now.

>> Michael: David, anything of significance, you know, on the map from the Forest Service perspective? It did burn -- it didn't burn uniformly.

>> David: Right. It was more of a mosaic burn, of course, and you can see where the flame fronts ran through the forest and left islands of green or underburned. A good portion was burned in one way or another. The green -- trees are still there because they are used to fires, a fire adaptive system. So fire can run underneath the trees and clean the forest floor but trees can survive and that that's where we see that mosaic pattern. The bigger flame fronts came through, yeah, the trees couldn't withstand that. Of course, they burned.

>> Michael: Robert, let's turn our attention to the salvage operations that are under way. What does that mean? What is a salvage operation and number two, what are you doing?

>> Robert: Primarily the salvage operation is removal of trees that are either dead or about to die and primarily we're focussing our efforts in the larger diameter material. The smaller diameter material, there's so much out there that you have to start somewhere, and primarily our focus is on the larger diameters, and that's where the volume is at, that's where pretty much the grade of lumber is. So we're really making a major effort in doing that. We've had about 240 million board feet that wave' sold off reservation to off reservation companies. In addition to that, we have an addition article 150 million board feet which was sold to the tribe which the tribe has their own milling facility, and so they're going to be able to take a portion of that and be able to mill it in their own mill.

>> Michael: Tell me what board feet means.

>> Robert: Board feet is primarily a measuring rule for more the lumber companies and more for the foresters on the ground. It primarily equates to volume that is equal to a board, a piece of board one inch thick by 12 inches by 12 inches.

>> Michael: And the number you gave me was 240 million?

>> Robert: 240 million board feet off reservation a total of 390 million to be sold both on reservation and off reservation. That is far in excess of what we can manage in a yearly basis. Our main operation, what we harvest in green timber per year, is about 60 million a year.

>> Michael: These obviously are damaged trees, but they are not so damaged that they don't -- they don't have some salvageable commercial quantities --

>> Robert: Correct a lot of them will have foliage that has been burnt, branches that have been burnt but the main stem or the bowl is still there, and it is still salvageable.

>> Michael: Now, David, what about salvage efforts on Forest Service lands? That takes longer, does it not?

>> David: Yes, we are working through that environmental analysis process right now, and soon to sign some documents here shortly to where we'll be able to start offering some salvage also. First areas we're looking at is treating the trees alongside the road, within the road corridors, along hiking trails, around the campgrounds, putting a buffer around campgrounds because when people come out -- hike around the campground, there is that area of concern. The utility corridors like power lines, along the right-of-way fences along the highway, like highway 260 going through the north side of the fire.

>> Michael: Why are you paying special attention to those?

>> David: It's a health and safety concern for public access to the forest. We want a pour -- a portion of the forest has been opened up, but not 100% yet. We want to get that forest opened up. It is kind of a playground area where public can come in and use the area. The other area of concern is what we call the wildland urban interfaces, kind of a buffer around the tribal land inholdings in that burn area and the towns next to the fire, too. We're looking at approaching 25 million board feet on this first offering and then later in the summer as we continue through the analysis for the greater area, we'll look at offering more salvage out there, and it's going to be probably -- there's potential for 100 million plus, something like that.

>> Michael: When you have this many acres of forest that are damaged and this many trees that are damaged, I'm having a hard time envisioning exactly what the environmental assessment would entail. I mean, these trees are pretty much goners. So what is it that's being assessed from an environmental standpoint?

>> David: The big issue is the soil condition. What can we do to save the soil? The monsoons came through last summer, the first thing that was washed away was the ash layer from the fire, from things that were burned. Then as soon as that was gone, now the rains are taking the topsoil away. We start losing that topsoil, it's going to take us longer to regenerate that forest and get it back into a growing condition again. So anything we can do to help slow that soil loss will improve the forest in the long run.

>> Michael: Understood, but is that a separate and distinct issue from whether or not you harvest or salvage these trees?

>> David: That's part of it.

>> Michael: So the trees might help in that effort?

>> David: Yeah, because when we put the trees -- some of the trees that we'll be putting down on the forest floor will be left there and they actually act as mini dams along the forest floor to help slow the erosion process down. The excess volume there will be removed. So we're looking at the soil issues, we're looking at still public safety issues and the wildlife issues for sure, leaving enough habitat for the species that are still trying to move back into that burned area.

>> Michael: Right. Robert, you mentioned moving most of this lumber out of state for processing?

>> Robert: Correct.

>> Michael: Is that just the function of the facilities not being there for --

>> Robert: That's correct. We've had a number of local bidders involved in the sales that we've had, but there had been at least several large companies that came out of state and were capable of being able to move the volume that needed to move in a short period of time that we're looking at which is about a year to a year-and-a-half. In addition to that, we were looking at much of the area, at least 50% of the volume that's coming off the sale areas, as being helicopter log, which has a tendency to be able to mitigate for some of the soil damaged properties that tractor logging would cause. So we have about 195 million that's going to be helicopter logged. So this will be a first for the tribe to be able to get a helicopter company in to be able to remove that. As a matter of fact, they at least have three ships coming in with an expected 13 more coming in, I believe, the first of January. So it's going to be significant for us to be able to get a lead on that and to get a handle on that. We've never been there before, and it's going to be a new experience for all of us at the agency.

>> Michael: David, there was an agreement with the state announced yesterday. What's about that?

>> David: We signed a memorandum of understanding with the State of Arizona to assist us in do young our assessments and work there -- doing our assessments and work there on the rehab of the burn area. Basically what they were -- worked out with them is that they would provide us some support and personnel, specialists, from like foresters coming in to help us, designate some of this timber, possibly some land surveyors, and also some agreements with them in the sense of helping with review of our documents, for instance, when we do archaeological survey work, we go through the state historical preservation officer. They agreed to help us expedite those reviews, and I think it was a good agreement. Because most of the work we do on national forestlands as federal employees, it's kind of unique to bring in someone from outside the government to help us with the processes.

>> Michael: You know, this fire was so huge in comparison to other fires, will it present its own unique set of circumstances and problems and solutions and those kind of things because of its size, or if you had a 50,000 acre fire is it just, you know, 10 times as big as the problem that a 50,000 acre fire would pose?

>> David: It was definitely a unique situation to have that many acres between both of our agencies to deal with that and to get your hands on it, in a manner of speaking, to figure out how to address that. Like you mentioned, a 50,000 acre burn, we have areas in there that some of those runs during the day would burn 50,000 acres in one day, and so we've got a lot of country there that has changed over to a new vegetative type. We have areas now that won't have any trees is that's going to come back in as a grassland type for a while. We have the intermix with the vegetation, green islands of timber that are still there that creates a new -- in way of wildlife, the new age effect where they use that boundary between the two types of vegetation.

>> Michael: In fact, Robert, there's sort of a series, an evolution that the forest will go through in coming back, correct?

>> Robert: Yes. It's going to be a long process, as David has already spoken to, but I think what's going to really -- we're going to see a lot of the brush and hopefully we'll be able to see some grasses coming up first, but we're already seeing some brush come up, and the Manzanita is a fire dependent species. That's going to be a species that's going to be coming up first.

>> Michael: Do you get different kinds of trees -- you get transitional kinds of trees until you build back up into the Ponderosa?

>> Robert: Yes, you do. Primarily the only reason we're going to have that is because pretty much most of the Ponderosa pine is gone within a particular area, so there is really no seed source. The only place you will get Ponderosa pine is where you come back in and plant trees. I know this year' we're getting ready to be able to plant 350,000 trees. We probably have at least 80% of that either purchased or growing in our own greenhouse. So by monsoon season next year, we'll be starting to put about 3,500 trees, we've never done that before, and I don't know anybody else that has and we talked about some of the things that's presenting itself as we go through here. This is a challenge and we don't know where to be -- if we're going to be able to do it.

>> Michael: I can't think of better guys to try to tackle it, Robert thank you very much for joining us. Jim Cummings, good to see you. Happy holidays to both of you. Thursday on "Horizon," an economic update. We'll look at what an up and down Wall Street and recession mean for your finances. Then on Friday, the local reporters talk about the week's top stories on the journalists roundtable. Thursday and Friday on "Horizon." Thank you very much for joining us this evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a pleasant one. Good night!