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April 15, 2002

Host: Michael Grant
Topic: Update on Indian gaming issues
In-Studio Guests:
Senator Herb Guenther;
Senate President Randall Gnant

>> Michael: TONIGHT ON HORIZON, LAWMAKERS ENTER THEIR THIRD WEEK OF SPECIAL SESSION ON INDIAN GAMING. ON THE TABLE, ONE BILL TO APPROVE THE GOVERNOR'S NEW GAMING COMPACT. ANOTHER WOULD ADD DIFFERENT FORMS OF GAMBLING TO HORSE AND DOG TRACKS.

>>Michael: GOOD EVENING, I'M MICHAEL GRANT.

>>Michael: IN A LAWSUIT FILED BY RACETRACKS LAST YEAR, A FEDERAL JUDGE RULED ANY AGREEMENTS BETWEEN THE STATE OF ARIZONA AND INDIAN TRIBES HAVE TO BE APPROVED BY THE LEGISLATURE. GOVERNOR HULL CALLED A SPECIAL SESSION A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO TO GET LAWMAKERS TO APPROVE THE LATEST GAMING COMPACT NEGOTIATED BETWEEN THE STATE AND 17 INDIAN TRIBES. HERE ARE SOME HIGHLIGHTS OF THE COMPACT. THE AGREEMENT RAISES THE MINIMUM GAMBLING AGE TO 21 FROM 18. CAPS THE NUMBER OF SLOT MACHINES AT 15,000. GIVES TRIBES THE ABILITY TO TRANSFER SLOT MACHINES FROM RURAL TO URBAN CASINOS. ALLOWS TRIBES TO OPERATE BLACKJACK TABLES. GIVES THE STATE THE ABILITY TO MONITOR CARD ROOMS. FORCES TRIBES TO DISCLOSE EARNINGS AND PAY BETWEEN 1% TO 8% OF PROCEEDS TO THE STATE. ANOTHER BILL BEFORE LAWMAKERS WOULD ALLOW DOG AND HORSE TRACKS TO ADD A DIFFERENT FORM OF GAMING. SENATE CONCURRENT RESOLUTION 1001 WOULD ALLOW UP TO 1,000 VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS AT ARIZONA RACETRACKS. REQUIRES TRACKS TO PAY 30% OF PROCEEDS FROM THOSE TERMINALS TO THE STATE. ALLOWS INDIAN TRIBES TO TRANSFER SLOT MACHINES. REQUIRES TRIBES TO PAY BETWEEN 4% TO 12% OF PROCEEDS TO THE STATE. THAT BILL MUST BE APPROVED BY VOTERS IF PASSED BY THE LEGISLATURE TO BECOME LAW. JOINING ME NOW ARE THE SPONSORS OF THE TWO BILLS. SENATOR HERB GUENTHER OF TACNA IS CO-SPONSOR OF THE BILL TO APPROVE THE INDIAN GAMING CONTACT. SENATE PRESIDENT RANDALL GNANT IS CO-SPONSOR OF THE RACETRACK BILL. AND TACNA OF COURSE IS EAST OF YUMAN.

>>S. Randall Gnant: THAT'S RIGHT.

>> Michael: I KNEW THAT. WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE COMPACTS FOR QUITE SOMETIME. SO LET'S START WITH THE RACETRACK BILL. WHY IS THE RACETRACK BILL, WHICH HAS INDIAN GAMING COMPONENTS TO IT AS WELL, A BETTER SOLUTION THAN THE NEGOTIATED COMPACTS?

>>S. Randall Gnant: WELL, I'LL GIVE YOU TWO REASONS IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER. FIRST OF ALL, THE GOVERNOR'S BILL -- I'M SORRY, SENATOR GUENTHER'S BILL CALLS FOR A PERIOD OF UP TO 30 YEARS BEFORE IT CAN BE RENEGOTIATED. THIRTY YEARS IS A LONG TIME IN ARIZONA HISTORY, THAT'S BEFORE YOU WERE DOING THIS SHOW, MICHAEL.

>> Michael: JUST BARELY.

>>S. Randall Gnant: FACT OF THE MATTER IS YOU COULD BE BORN, GO TO SCHOOL, GO TO COLLEGE, GRADUATE, BECOME 25 YEARS OLD, RUN FOR THE LEGISLATURE AND BE IN YOUR SECOND TERM BEFORE YOU COULD MAKE ANY CHANGES TO THIS. THINK OF ARIZONA IN 1970 AND ARIZONA NOW. LOCKING IN FOR 30 YEARS TO ME IS ABSOLUTELY LUDICROUS. THE MAIN REASON I AM PROMOTING THE VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS AT THE TRACKS, QUITE FRANKLY, IS TO PROVIDE AN ADDITIONAL REVENUE STREAM TO THE STATE OF ARIZONA. QUITE FRANKLY, WE NEED THE MONEY. I SAID THIS MORNING TO THE GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE, THIS IS ABOUT MONEY. WE HAVE A LEVEL OF EXPENSES THAT CAN'T BE SUSTAINED BY THE REVENUES WE HAVE COMING IN. THIS IS A GOOD SOURCE OF GETTING THAT MONEY. I WOULD MUCH RATHER HAVE MONEY PAID VOLUNTARILY BY PEOPLE IN THE PROCESS OF LOOSING IT THAN TO HAVE TO GO AND PUT A TAX ON PEOPLE.

>> Michael: WHAT ABOUT THOSE POINTS? THIRTY YEARS IS TOO LONG AND WE NEED THE CASH?

>>S. Herb Guenther: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU'RE GOING TO REGULATE GAMING AND BUILD A FENCE AROUND IT AS WE WOULD BY LIMITING IT TO NATIVE AMERICAN TRIBES, IT'S A -- LONGER IS A GOOD THING, BECAUSE YOU HAVE SOME SURETY IN THE ABILITY TO CONTROL. SECOND OF ALL, THE LEGISLATURE AT ANY POINT IN TIME WOULD BE ABLE TO EXPAND GAMING, SHOULD THEY SO DESIRE. THERE WOULD BE NO LIMITATIONS ON THE EXPANSION OF GAMING BEYOND WHAT THE COMPACTS ARE NEGOTIATED. OF COURSE, THAT WOULD ACTIVATE DIFFERENT PROVISIONS IN THE COMPACT, BUT COULD YOU DO THAT.

>>S. Randall Gnant: YEAH, RIGHT, THE POISON PILL, SURE YOU CAN DO THAT.

>>S. Herb Guenther: YOU CERTAINLY CAN.

>> Michael: WELL, PERHAPS WE SHOULD EXPLAIN. IF THE LEGISLATURE -- THE QUID PRO QUO GOING ON HERE IS THE INDIAN TRIBES GET EXCLUSIVITY UNDER THE COMPACTS IN EXCHANGE FOR SHARING A PERCENTAGE OF THE PROCEEDS. IF THE LEGISLATURE AUTHORIZES MORE, IT BLOWS THE CAP OFF OF CERTAIN OF THOSE PROVISIONS.

>>S. Herb Guenther: THAT'S RIGHT, REVENUE SHARING IS OUT AND LIMITATIONS ON DEVICES ARE OUT.

>>S. Randall Gnant: SENATOR GUENTHER IS BEING AS DISINGENUOUS AS THE COMMERCIALS WE'VE BEEN HEARING ON BOTH SIDES, I WOULD ADMIT. 30 YEARS IS NOT A GOOD PERIOD OF TIME TO LOCK SOMETHING IN, SENATOR GUENTHER, IF IT'S A BAD DEAL. THIS IS A BAD DEAL. THIS IF IT GOES FORWARD WILL MAKE ALL FIELDS LOOK LIKE A CLERICAL ERROR, AND YOU KNOW THAT.

>>S. Herb Guenther: NO, IT ABSOLUTELY IS NOT. THIS IS -- IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN LIMITING GAMING IN ARIZONA, SO YOU DON'T HAVE GAMES ON EVERY CORNER IN EVERY NEIGHBORHOOD.

>>S. Randall Gnant: HERB, LET ME STOP YOU RIGHT THERE, THE GOVERNOR'S PROPOSAL ALLOWS FOR MORE CASINOS TO BE BUILT THAN RACETRACKS THAT WOULD HAVE LOTTERY TERMINALS. YOU TALK ABOUT AN EXPANSION OF GAMING --

>>S. Herb Guenther: IT IS A REDUCTION OF 28 TO 39 UNDER THE EXISTING GUIDELINES.

>>S. Randall Gnant: BUT NET MORE CASINOS WOULD BE ALLOWABLE UNDER THE GOVERNOR'S PLAN TODAY --

>>S. Herb Guenther: LET ME GO FOR THE SECOND POINT.

>> Michael: SURE.

>>S. Herb Guenther: THAT IS THE REVENUE. IF YOU WANT A TAX, PASS A TAX. PASS A TAX THAT'S FAIR ACROSS THE BOARD, NOT ONE THAT'S REGRESSIVE SUCH AS GAMING, AND CALL IT A TAX. THERE'S NO NEED TO RAISE REVENUES BY THIS FORM OF TAXATION.

>> Michael: WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER -- THE NEIGHBORHOODS ARE STARTING TO GET A LITTLE CONCERNED, AS YOU KNOW. THERE'S MOON VALLEY GROUP THAT IS NOT REAL HAPPY ABOUT HAVING A THOUSAND, WHAT REALLY AMOUNTS TO SLOT MACHINES, AT 19th AVENUE AND BELL.

>>S. Randall Gnant: COUNCILMEMBER BILLSON BLITZED HER DISTRICT WITH E-MAILS SAYING YOU'VE GOT TO SEND SENATOR GNANT AN E-MAIL TELLING HIM HOW BAD THIS WOULD BE. I GOT A WHOLE RAFT OF FOLKS WHO SAID I THINK THAT TURF PARADISE OUGHT TO HAVE VLTs TO SERVE AS AN ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT BOON TO THE NEIGHBORHOOD. BECAUSE LOST IN ALL OF THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT THE BILL IS THAT 20% OF THE TAKE FROM THESE VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS GO BACK INTO INCREASED PURSES. YOU COULD HAVE ARIZONA FOR THE FIRST TIME HAVING STAKES RACES. I MEAN, GOOD SERIOUS STAKES RACES. THAT BRINGS MORE HORSES TO ARIZONA. THAT BRINGS MORE TOURISTS TO ARIZONA. THAT BRINGS MORE GROOMS, MORE TRAINERS, MORE ALFALFA AND OATS. IT CAN BE SUBSTANTIAL AND SIGNIFICANT BENEFIT.

>> Michael: DO YOU BUY THE TRACKS' STORY ON THAT? THEIR INCOME HAS BEEN GOING UP OVER THE PAST SIX OR SEVEN YEARS. WHY AREN'T THEY INCREASING PURSES THEMSELVES?

>>S. Randall Gnant: THEIR INCOME HAS BEEN GOING UP. THEIR GROSS INCOME HAS BEEN GOING UP; THEIR NET INCOME HASN'T. BY THE WAY, IN TUCSON, THAT IS NOT EVEN THE CASE. WHERE THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO MAKE UP THE DIFFERENCE IS BY GOING TO SIMULCASTING FOR WHICH THEY GET A MUCH, MUCH LOWER PERCENT OF THE TAKE AND FOR WHICH THE BREEDERS AND THE BREEDERS PURSES, THAT FUND, GETS POCKET CHANGE. NOW, I'M NOT HERE TO SHELL FOR THE TRACKS. THEY CAN DO A GOOD ENOUGH JOB OF MAKING THEIR OWN CASE AS TO WHETHER THEY NEED THE MONEY TO EXIST, BUT DON'T FORGET OUR TRACKS ARE ALREADY IN A GAMING ENVIRONMENT. IT'S ALREADY HEAVILY REGULATED. AND THE ADDITION OF A MODEST NUMBER OF VLTs COULD BRING IN SIGNIFICANT AMOUNTS OF MONEY THAT WE NEED.

>> Michael: SENATOR GUENTHER, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT -- THERE ARE EXPANSIVE ELEMENTS TO THE NEGOTIATED COMPACT. CERTAINLY IT ALLOWS URBAN CASINOS TO DOUBLE. YOU INTRODUCED THE ELEMENT OF BLACKJACK TABLES WHICH YOU HAVE NOT HAD UP TO THIS POINT IN TIME. A LOT OF PEOPLE -- RURAL URBAN TRANSFERS. A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY, HEY, LISTEN, I CAN TOLERATE IT AT THE CURRENT LEVEL, WHY IS IT NECESSARY TO TAKE THIS A SIGNIFICANT STAGE UP?

>>S. Herb Guenther: WELL, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DEALING WITH 17 TRIBES OVER A TWO-YEAR NEGOTIATED PERIOD. AND THERE WAS A LOT OF GIVE AND TAKE ON BOTH THINGS. WE WANTED REVENUE SHARING. WE WANTED TO LIMIT THE GAMBLING AGE TO 21. WE WANTED GOOD, SOLID REGULATION OF ALL FORMS OF GAMING, AND WE WANTED THE ABILITY TO SET LIMITS ON WHAT IT IS WE ALLOWED. AND IN THOSE NEGOTIATING POINTS, THAT'S THE TRADE-OFFS THAT WERE MADE.

>> Michael: DID YOU HAVE TO OFFER THOSE TRADE-OFFS IN ORDER TO GET REVENUE SHARING FOR THE STATE?

>>S. Herb Guenther: I'M SURE IT WAS PART OF THE OVERALL TRADE-OFFS, BUT THE 15,000 MACHINES, WHICH IS 14,675, BUT WHO'S COUNTING, IS CONSISTENT WITH WHAT WAS PLANNED FOR ALL OF THE TRIBES STATEWIDE.

>> Michael: IT'S ALLOWING CONCENTRATION OF --

>>S. Herb Guenther: THAT'S TRUE. IT ALLOWS THE RURAL TRIBES TO SELL THE RIGHTS OF THEIR GAMING MACHINES TO OTHERS BECAUSE THEIR GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION PRECLUDES THEIR ABILITY TO USE IT.

>> Michael: SIMILARLY, SENATOR GNANT, I THINK WHAT CONCERNS PEOPLE ABOUT YOUR CONCURRENT RESOLUTION IS IF YOU ALLOW -- AND MAYBE AN ARBITRARY BOUNDARY FOR THE INDIAN RESERVATION, BUT IT'S STILL A LINE -- IF YOU ALLOW THE GAMING OFF THE RESERVATION TO THE HORSE AND DOG TRACKS, WHAT DO YOU SAY TO THE NEXT ENTITY, LET'S SAY THE RESORTS ALONG LINCOLN DRIVE, WHO SAY, I'M GETTING KILLED BY THESE SUBSIDIZED HOTEL ROOMS ON THE PIMAS' RESERVATION, AND I WANT GAMING, TOO. I WANT SLOT MACHINES, TOO.

>>S. Randall Gnant: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, MY PROPOSAL ONLY ALLOWS THE VIDEO LOTTERY TERMINALS IN AN ALREADY GAMING-REGULATED ENVIRONMENT. HOTELS AND MOTELS DON'T HAVE A GAMING REGULATED ENVIRONMENT. AND SECONDLY, THE SAME POISON PILL THAT IS IN SENATOR GUENTHER'S BILL IS IN MY BILL, WHICH SAYS, ESSENTIALLY, THIS IS IT. THIS IS THE LIMIT. GO HEAD.

>> Michael: BUT AT LEAST UP TO THIS POINT IN TIME, YOU'VE BEEN ABLE TO SAY TO EVERYBODY ELSE THAT'S NOT ON A RESERVATION, I'M SORRY, YOU MAY BE KILLED BY THIS THING, BUT IT STAYS ON THE RESERVATION. HAVEN'T YOU LOST THAT SAFE HARBOR ONCE YOU COME OFF FOR, LET'S SAY EVEN A COMPELLING REASON?

>>S. Randall Gnant: WE'RE NOT COMING OFF FOR 146 DIFFERENT SITES. THERE IS A MAXIMUM OF 10 PLACES IN THE STATE THAT HAVE GOT GAMING LICENSES THAT COULD QUALIFY FOR THIS, AND NO MORE THAN TWO IN ANY ONE COUNTY. THIS IS HARDLY A PROLIFERATION OF NEW PLACES TO GO TO GAME.

>> Michael: ALMOST OUT OF TIME. DOES THE COLORADO RIVER INITIATIVE BLOW THE -- IF IT GOES TO THE BALLOT, BLOW THE CAPS OFF BOTH PLANS, SENATOR GUENTHER?

>>S. Herb Guenther: NO, BECAUSE THE TRIBES WOULD -- IN THE COMPACT WOULD SIGN A PROVISION WHICH WOULD FORGO TAKING ADVANTAGE OF ANYTHING THAT IS SUBSTANTIALLY DIFFERENT THAN THE COMPACT.

>> Michael: WOULD IT BLOW YOURS?

>>S. Randall Gnant: I DON'T THINK SO. LET ME MAKE ONE FINAL POINT. SENATOR GUENTHER'S BILL, IF IT BECOMES LAW, IS IT. 30 YEARS, LOCKED IN, ALL SAID, ALL DONE. ALL I WANT TO DO IS PUT IT ON THE BALLOT TO LET THE PEOPLE VOTE. WHY ARE THEY SPENDING SO MUCH TIME AND SO MUCH EFFORT TO KEEP MY PROPOSAL FROM GOING TO THE PEOPLE TO GET A VOTE?

>>S. Herb Guenther: AND THE ANSWER IS WE WANT TO STAY WITH GOVERNMENTS AS HAVING EXCLUSIVITY WITH REGARD TO GAMING IN ARIZONA. AND ONCE YOU LET IT OUTSIDE THE GOVERNMENT ENTITY TO PRIVATE BUSINESSES, THERE IS NO STOPPING IT.

>>S. Randall Gnant: I'D HATE TO HAVE THE PEOPLE HAVING A SAY IN OUR GOVERNMENT, THAT WOULD BE TERRIBLE, HERB.

>>S. Herb Guenther: THEY ARE HAVING IT RIGHT NOW, RANDALL.

>> Michael: SENATOR HERB GUENTHER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US. SENATOR PRESIDENT RANDALL GNANT, OUR THANKS TO YOU AS WELL.

>> Michael: PHOENIX RECORD COMPANY CELEBRATED RECENTLY ITS 50th YEAR IN THE RECORDING INDUSTRY. CANYON RECORDS IS ONE OF THE OLDEST INDEPENDENT LABELS IN THE NATION. AS PAUL ATKINSON AND PHOTOGRAPHER RICHARD TORRUELLAS SHOW US, THE PHOENIX COMPANY WAS ONE OF THE FIRST TO RECORD AND MARKET NATIVE AMERICAN MUSIC. \M\M

>>Curtis Hamilton Young Bird: WE'RE THE MAIN CORE OF THIS CONCERT HERE, OUR DRUM BEAT IS NONSTOP.

>> Reporter: THE DRUM GROUP YOUNG BIRD IS IN SCOTTSDALE REHEARSING FOR A CONCERT CELEBRATING CANYON RECORDS' 50th ANNIVERSARY.

>> Curtis Hamilton Young Bird: CANYON RECORD IS LIKE THE NUMBER ONE NATIVE AMERICAN, YOU KNOW, RECORDING THAT EVERYBODY WOULD LIKE TO BE WITH.

>> Reporter: THE CONCERT FEATURES A HALF DOZEN OF THE 25 OR SO ACTIVE ARTISTS AND GROUPS ON THE CANYON RECORDS LABEL. ONE OF THE BETTER KNOWN CANYON ARTISTS IS ROBERT TREE CODY.

>> Robert Tree Cody: CANYON RECORDS HAS GIVEN MANY OTHER NATIVE AMERICAN ARTISANS THE OPPORTUNITY TO DISPLAY THE SKILLS THAT NATIVE AMERICA REALLY HAS TO OFFER TO THE WORLD.

>> Reporter: LIKE MANY OF THE ARTISTS ON THE CANYON RECORDS LABEL, CODY GREW UP LISTENING TO MUSIC PRODUCED BY THE PHOENIX-BASED COMPANY.

>> Robert Tree Cody: I'VE ALWAYS SAID TO MYSELF WHEN I WAS LITTLE, I WANT TO RECORD WITH CANYON. I WANT TO DO WHAT I CAN TO -- SOME DAY I'M GOING TO DO IT.

>> Reporter: THAT DAY CAME IN 1988.

>> Robert Tree Cody:I WALKED IN AND I SAID, WELL, GOOD AFTERNOON, GENTLEMEN. MY NAME IS ROBERT TREE CODY. I'M A NATIVE FLAUTIST, AND I'M DAMN GOOD.

>> Reporter: MANY CANYON ARTISTS ALSO APPROACHED THE RECORD COMPANY, WHILE OTHERS, LIKE THE OKLAHOMA GROUP YOUNG BIRD WERE SOUGHT OUT BY CANYON RECORDS.

>> Curtis Hamilton Young Bird: THEY APPROACHED US IN 1998, NOVEMBER, AND WE'VE BEEN TOGETHER AS A GROUP FOR ABOUT SIX MONTHS. SO IT WAS REALLY SHOCKING THAT SOMEONE CAME TO US THAT EARLY IN TIME. \M\M

>> Reporter: CANYON RECORDS GAVE NATIVE AMERICAN ARTISTS A STAGE, A STAGE THEY DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE.

>> Robert Tree Cody:: AND SO BY WORKING WITH CANYON RECORDS, THEY'VE OPENED MANY DOORS FOR A LOT OF NATIVE AMERICANS AND THEY HAVE SUCCEEDED WITH THIS. A FINE EXAMPLE OF SUCCESS IS R. CARLOS NAKAI, A RENOWNED NAVAJO FLAUTIST, UNBELIEVABLE FLAUTIST.

>> Reporter: R. CARLOS NAKAI WAS AN UNEMPLOYED SCHOOL TEACHER WHEN HE RECORDED SOME SONGS ON TAPE. HE HAD TO BEG THE HEARD MUSEUM TO LET HIM SELL HIS CASSETTES DURING AN INDIAN ART SHOW. NAKAI SOON GOT A CALL FROM CANYON RECORDS.

>> R. Carlos Nakai: PEOPLE WERE SAYING, THIS MAN IS CALLING YOU AND HE WANTS TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT YOUR RECORDING, AND I SAID, OH, NO, OBVIOUSRY I'VE INFRINGED ON SOMEBODY'S COPYRIGHT. BUT IT TURNED OUT THEY WANTED TO MARKET MY RECORDING INSTEAD.

>> Reporter: THAT RECORDING WAS RELEASED ON THE CANYON RECORD LABEL IN 1984. SINCE THEN, NAKAI HAS BECOME CANYON RECORD'S TOP ARTIST WITH MORE THAN 3 MILLION COPIES OF HIS MUSIC SOLD. NOT BAD FOR AN ART-OF-WORK TEACHER WHO ONCE PLEADED WITH INDIAN TRADING POSTS TO SELL HIS MUSIC.

>> R.Carlos Nakai: I THOUGHT, I'VE BEEN GOING ALL OVER THE PLACE TRYING TO FIND PEOPLE WHO WOULD TAKE THIS ON CONSIGNMENT, AND MOST OF THE TRADING POSTS ALL OVER THE FOUR CORNERS SAID, NAH, IT'S NOT TRADITIONAL, AND YOU ARE A NAVAJO AND A UTE, AND THEY NEVER PLAYED FLUTES, AND WE DON'T KNOW IF WE WANT IT. AND NOW I GO BACK TO GALLUP AND SANTA FE AND ALBUQUERQUE, CORTEZ AND DURANGO, AND THEY ALL HAVE MY MUSIC IN THEIR SHOPS. \M\M

>> Reporter: CANYON RECORDS GOT ITS START IN 1951, THANKS TO A NAVAJO SINGER NAMED ED LEE NATAY. THE PHOENIX LITTLE THEATER WANTED TO USE NATAY'S SONGS IN A PLAY AND ASKED PHOENIX FILM PRODUCER RAY BOLEY TO RECORD THE SINGER.

>> Robert Doyle: AFTER THE RECORDING OF NATAY, RAY WAS SO STRUCK BY THE BEAUTY OF NATAY'S SINGING, HE THOUGHT, WELL, WHY DON'T WE RELEASE AN ALBUM OF THIS MUSIC. NOW, BOLEY, DID NOT HAVE A RECORDING LABEL. HE WAS JUST SIMPLY MOVED BY THE ARTISTRY OF NATAY, AND LATER TRACKED HIM DOWN, THEN RELEASED AN ALBUM AT THE 1951 ARIZONA STATE FAIR. AND THAT WAS THE BEGINNING OF CANYON RECORDS.

>> Richard Haefer: RAY BOLEY, AFTER HE STARTED PRODUCING A FEW RECORDS HERE IN THE SOUTHWEST, OTHER INDIAN PEOPLE WOULD REALIZE THIS WAS HAPPENING BECAUSE HE WOULD GO TO PEOPLE WHERE THERE WAS INTERTRIBAL GATHERINGS. POW-WOWs, THINGS OF THAT NATURE, THE GALLUP INDIAN FAIR. \M\M

>> Richard Haefer: AND PRETTY SOON, INDIAN CULTURES FROM THE NORTHWEST, FROM CANADA, THE NORTHERN PLAINS, THE GREAT LAKES, PEOPLE WERE DRIVING DOWN TO PHOENIX OR SEEING HIM AT SOME KIND OF A POW-WOW EVENT AND SAYING WE WANT TO BE RECORDED TOO, CAN YOU RECORD US.

>> Reporter: BY THE 1970s, RAY BOLEY AND HIS WIFE HAD PUT AWAY THEIR FILM CAMERAS AND BEGAN RECORDING INDIAN MUSIC FULL TIME, BUT NOT ALL NATIVE AMERICANS WANTED THEIR SONGS RECORDED.

>> Robert Doyle: THERE WERE CERTAIN TRIBES THAT ABSOLUTELY DID NOT WANT TO RECORD, BECAUSE -- AND THEY HAD JUSTIFIABLE CONCERNS THAT THEY WOULD LOSE CONTROL OF IT. ONCE IT'S RECORDED, IT'S OUT OF THEIR CONTROL AN THEY DIDN'T WANT THAT. AND THE BOLEYS WOULD ALWAYS RESPECT THAT.

>> Reporter: ROBERT DOYLE BEGAN WORKING AT CANYON RECORDS IN THE EARLY 1980s WHILE FINISHING A MASTER'S DEGREE AT ASU.

>> Robert Doyle: WHEN I CAME TO WORK FOR RAY, IT WAS WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT I WOULD BE THE NEXT GENERATION AT CANYON.

>> Robert Doyle: TRILLING THESE LONGER NOTES, EVEN FINISHING UP WITH A FLUTTER TONGUE. THE BEGINNING IS OKAY BECAUSE IT'S NEW, BUT WE NEED A NEW FEEL. GIVE IT THE NAKAI MAGIC.

>> R. Carlos Nakai: A LITTLE MORE FEELING, OKAY.

>> Robert Doyle: FLARE, JUST FLARE IT.

>> Reporter: DOYLE TOOK OVER CANYON RECORDS WHEN THE BOLEYS RETIRED IN 1992.

>> Robert Doyle: '92 WAS A CRITICAL YEAR FOR NATIVE AMERICAN MUSIC IN GENERAL. IT WAS RIGHT WHEN GENERAL INTEREST IN NATIVE AMERICAN THEMES WAS DEVELOPING, FUELED BY SUCH THINGS AS "DANCES WITH WOLVES," AND THEN ALL OF THE BIG TELEVISION SPECIALS ON NATIVE AMERICANS. PEOPLE WERE BEGINNING TO TURN THEIR ATTENTION THERE.

>> Reporter: DOYLE MADE THE MOST OF THE OPPORTUNITY BY BRANDING THE GENRE OF MUSIC RECORDED BY CANYON RECORDS.

>> Robert Doyle: AND THAT REQUIRED INCREASING THE QUALITY OF OUR GRAPHICS AND OF OUR RECORDINGS BECAUSE WE WERE NO LONGER COMPETING AGAINST OTHER NATIVE AMERICAN-ORIENTED LABELS OR SMALL INDEPENDENTS, WE WERE REALLY COMPETING AGAINST THE MAJORS, AND SO OUR PRODUCT HAD TO BE EQUAL TO OR SOMETIMES SUPERIOR TO THEIRS TO SURVIVE IN THE MARKETPLACE. \M\M

>> Reporter: THE COMMITMENT TO QUALITY HASN'T GONE UNNOTICED. CANYON RECORDS ARTISTS HAVE RECEIVED NUMEROUS GRAMMY NOMINATIONS THE PAST FEW YEARS. THE DUO OF VERDELL PRIMEAU AND JOHHNY MIKE WON CANYON RECORDS FIRST GRAMMY AWARD IN 2002.

>> Robert Doyle: THE CRITICAL ACCLAIM IS MOST IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF AFFIRMING THE ARTISTS. AND THE IMPORTANCE OF SOMETHING LIKE THE GRAMMYS IS NOT SO MUCH THAT IT INCREASES OUR SALES, IS THAT IT BECOMES A VALIDATION FROM THE GREATER CULTURE TO THE NATIVE AMERICAN CULTURE SAYING YOU ARE IMPORTANT IN HOUR EYES. \M\M

>> Reporter: THE CELEBRATION OF CANYON RECORDS' 50th ANNIVERSARY IS NOT NECESSARILY ABOUT THE COMPANY, BUT ITS IMPACT ON NATIVE AMERICANS AND THEIR MUSIC.

>> Richard Haefer: AS FAR AS IN THE '50s AND '60s, IT WAS A MEANS OF VALIDATING, IF YOU WOULD, INDIAN IDENTITY IN SOME WAYS. SOMEONE IS PRODUCING OUR SOUNDS, WE CAN BUY OUR SOUNDS, WE CAN HEAR THEM. WE'RE REAL. WE'RE REAL AND WE'RE INTERESTED IN THIS MUSIC, AND OTHER PEOPLE ARE INTERESTED IN THE MUSIC AS WELL. \M\M

>> Reporter: THE SUCCESS OF CANYON RECORDS EXTENDS BEYOND THE NUMBER OF RECORDS SOLD.

>> R. Carlos Nakai: I THINK WORKING WITH THEM AND FINDING THAT THE TRUE HEART AND SOUL OF WHAT THEY ARE AS A RECORDING COMPANY IS NOT JUST IN MASS MARKETING A POPULAR MEDIA AT THE MOMENT, BUT TO DEMONSTRATE TO EVERYONE, ESPECIALLY THE INDIGENOUS TRIBES, THAT YOU'VE GOT TO RECORD WHAT REMAINS. YOU'VE GOT TO PUT IT DOWN IN VIABLE FORM, BECAUSE THE YOUNGER PEOPLE IN THE FUTURE ARE GOING TO NEED THIS INFORMATION DESPERATELY. \M\M

>> Reporter: IN 50 YEARS, CANYON RECORDS HAS PUT OUT MORE THAN 500 WORKS OF MUSIC. SOME OF THE SONGS NEW, OTHERS CENTURIES OLD.

>> Robert Doyle: IN A WAY, WE DON'T OWN THIS MUSIC. WE'RE ONLY CARETAKERS OF IT UNTIL IT GOES TO SOME OTHER PLACE. AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT KEEPS US GROUNDED AND WHAT IS THE BASIS OF OUR LONGEVITY AND HOPEFULLY OUR LONGEVITY WITH THE FUTURE. [ APPLAUSE ]

>> Michael: MUSIC OF A DIFFERENT SORT BEING PLAYED ON THE DECK OF A SHIP ON THIS DAY 90 YEARS AGO, APRIL 15, 1912, THE RMS TITANIC AND ABOUT 1500 PEOPLE ON BOARD MET THEIR DOOM. YOU NOW HAVE A RARE OPPORTUNITY TO SEE ARTIFACTS FROM THE SHIPWRECK AT THE ARIZONA SCIENCE CENTER IN DOWNTOWN PHOENIX. PRODUCER MERRY LUCERO AND VIDEOGRAPHER RICHARD TORRUELLAS TAKE YOU THERE.

>> Reporter: ENTER TITANIC, THE ARTIFACT EXHIBIT, AND IMMERSE YOURSELF IN ITS WORLD AS A PASSENGER EMBARKING THE ILL-FATED SHIP. AS A HISTORIAN CONNECTING WITH LIFE FROM THE PAST, AND AS A SCIENTIST OBSERVING BOTH OLD AND NEW TECHNOLOGY. STEPPING ON, FIRST THING YOU GET IS A BOARDING PASS. SHEILA GRINELL, PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE ARIZONA SCIENCE CENTER.

>> Sheila Grinell: WE HAND YOU A BOARDING PASS AND IT'S A FACSIMILE OF THE ACTUAL BOARDING PASS THAT THE WHITE STAR LINE HANDED OUT IN 1912. IT HAS THE NAME OF A PASSENGER AND THE CLASS, FIRST, SECOND, THIRD OR CREW. AND YOU HOLD ONTO IT AND LATER ON IN THE EXHIBITION AT THE VERY END, YOU CAN FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED TO YOUR PASSENGER.

>> Reporter: THERE'S A HISTORY LESSON. MORE FIRST CLASS PASSENGERS SURVIVED. SOME OF THE RICHEST PEOPLE IN THE WORLD SAILED THE TITANIC, BUT MOST WERE NOT.

>> Sheila Grinell: THE BULK OF THE PASSENGERS, WHICH WERE OVER 2000, WERE NOT THE MOST GLAMOROUS PEOPLE IN THE MORNING, THOUGH THEY WERE THERE. THEY WERE IMMIGRANTS. THEY WERE MY GREAT GRANDPARENTS.

>> Reporter: THERE ARE SETS OF LIVING AREAS AND ARTIFACTS FROM ALL THREE CLASSES, BUT THE TITANIC WAS A FLOATING STATUS SYMBOL, SEEN IN THIS RECREATION OF THE ELEGANT AND ENORMOUS GRAND STAIRCASE.

>> Reporter: JEWELRY, CLOTHING AND MANY PASSENGERS' PERSONAL POSSESSIONS ARE AMONG THE MOST INTERESTING OBJECTS ON DISPLAY. THERE IS SOMETHING EVERY VISITOR CAN CONNECT TO.

>> Sheila Grinell: THERE'S A MAN'S BOOT, AND YOU CAN SEE IT'S WORN. HIS FOOT SHAPED THAT SOLE. AND SOMETHING ABOUT THAT BOOT JUST GETS ME. I CAN VISUALIZE THE PERSON STANDING IN IT. AND IDENTIFY WITH WHAT HAPPENED. I THINK THAT PROBABLY THE PERSONAL CONTACT IS DIFFERENT FOR EVERYBODY, BUT THE BOOT REALLY SPEAKS TO ME.

>> Reporter: DISHES, FIXTURES AND ITEMS FROM THE SHIP'S DAILY LIFE HAVE BEEN RECOVERED AND PAINSTAKINGLY CONSERVED. SOME DISPLAYED JUST AS DIVERS DISCOVERED THEM. TOOLS AND MECHANICAL GEAR REMIND US OF THE MASSIVE MACHINERY THAT RAN THE SHIP, BUT THE MOST IMPRESSIVE MECHANICAL PIECE IS A 20-TON SECTION OF THE TITANIC'S HULL.

>> Sheila Grinell: THIS GIANT PIECE TELLS YOU TWO STORIES. ONE STORY IS ABOUT THE FORCES THAT RIPPED THE SHIP APART. IF YOU LOOK AT IT, YOU CAN SEE IT'S BENT AND IT'S CRACKED AND SCALLOPED. THAT'S WHERE THE RIVETS POPPED. WE THINK WE UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED BY LOOKING AT THE EVIDENCE. AND THEN THERE IS THE WHOLE HISTORICAL SIDE. THIS WAS PART OF THE TOP -- THE FIRST CLASS SECTION, AND IT HAD SQUARE PORTHOLES, AND IT HAS ROUND PORTHOLES. THE SQUARE PORTHOLES WERE WINDOWS, AND THE ROUND PORTHOLES WERE YOUR BATHROOM. THIS IS THE FIRST SHIP WHERE THEY HAD A PRIVATE BATHROOM FOR THE MOST ELEGANT CABINS.

>> Reporter: TO EXPERIENCE THE FREEZING WATER PASSENGERS FELL INTO, A WALL OF ICE TO TOUCH.

>> Sheila Grinell: THE PEOPLE WHO WERE DUMPED INTO THE OCEAN EXPERIENCED 28 DEGREE WATER, BECAUSE SALT WATER FREEZES AT A LOWER TEMPERATURE. IT'S STILL COLD, WET AND LIQUID AT THE TIME, AND IT'S A PIECE TO EMPATHIZE WITH THE PEOPLE AND TO UNDERSTAND A LITTLE BIT MORE ABOUT THE SCIENCE.

>> Reporter: THE SCIENCE OF THE RECOVERY EXPEDITIONS BY RMS TITANIC, INC., FROM 1987 IT TO 2000 YOU ARE PART OF THE EXHIBIT. MARINE ARCHEOLOGISTS, AQUANAUTS AND NAVAL ENGINEERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD COLLABORATED, BUT FINDING A LOCAL CONNECTION FOR THE EXHIBITION WAS A CHALLENGE HERE IN PHOENIX.

>> Sheila Grinell: WE LOOKED AND LOOKED AND LOOKED, AND ALL WE COULD FIND WAS THE HEADLINE FROM WHAT WAS CALLED "THE ARIZONA REPUBLICAN" THEN. YOU KNOW HOW SMALL PHOENIX WAS ON APRIL 15th, 1912? THERE WEREN'T TOO MANY PEOPLE HERE.

>> Reporter: BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN ARIZONANS CAN'T FEEL TIED TO THE TITANIC. IT MAY BE A ONCE-IN-A-LIFETIME OPPORTUNITY TO TOUCH THIS PIECE OF HISTORY.

>> Sheila Grinell: WHEN WE DID GO DOWN AND TAKE A LOOK ABOUT IT. IT'S DISINTEGRATING AT A VERY FAST RATE. THERE ARE BACTERIA THERE THAT EAT THE METAL, AND PRETTY SOON IT'LL BE GONE.

>> Reporter: YOU HAVE THROUGH JUNE 2nd TO EXPERIENCE THIS 12,000 SQUARE FOOT EXHIBITION, WHERE PHOTOGRAPHS AND ARTIFACTS FROM THE TITANIC WILL TAKE YOU BACK IN TIME AND STICK WITH YOU LONG AFTER YOU GO HOME.

>> Michael: ADMISSION TO TITANIC, THE ARTIFACT EXHIBIT, $16 FOR ADULTS, AND $14 FOR CHILDREN.

>>Michael: TUESDAY NIGHT ON HORIZON, AN ECONOMIC UPDATE. IS THE RECESSION OVER IN ARIZONA?

>> Michael: THANKS VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS MONDAY EVENING. I'M MICHAEL GRANT. HAVE A GOOD ONE. GOOD NIGHT.

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