Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

August 27, 2007


Host: Steve Goldstein

One on One


  • In our regular Monday segment, former Democratic Congressman Sam Coppersmith debates the issues that affect Arizonans with Republican Sydney Hay.
Guests:
  • Sam Coppersmith - Coppersmith, Gordon, Schermer and Brockelman
  • Sydney Hay - Public affairs consultant and Conservative leader
  • Jay Golden - School of Sustainability, Arizona State University


View Transcript
>>Announcer:
Tonight on "Horizon," we begin a four-part series looking at the cost of teaching English to kids in English language learner programs. Two political types go head-to-head on issues that affect Arizona in our regular Monday feature one-on-one. And something that could keep us cooler on these hot summer days, how different pavements could reduce the urban heat effect: next on "Horizon."

>>Steve Goldstein:
Good evening I'm Steve Goldstein. Welcome to "Horizon." The Maricopa County Attorney's Office filed suit today against Arizona attorney general Terry Goddard claiming he's blocking an investigation by Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's office. The sheriff's office is looking into claims that the attorney general's office gave former state treasurer David Peterson a favorable criminal plea after the treasurer's office transferred $1.9 million in disputed funds to the attorney general's office. In a press conference today, county attorney Andrew Thomas and Sheriff Arpaio both said that the attorney general's office is potentially having a chilling effect on witnesses being interviewed in the investigation. Arpaio and Thomas said that's because Ed Novak, a criminal defense attorney hired to represent the attorney general's office, is present during interviews with the witnesses. Goddard's office released a statement saying it does not comment on grand jury investigations, but did say that Novak is representing the a.g.'s office, not Goddard. Goddard's actions angered the sheriff.

>>Joe Arpaio:
I'm a little aggravated. We have an investigation involving the former state treasurer and the attorney general. We're putting a lot of resources on this investigation for this type of activity to occur, we're being stonewalled it makes me very, very angry. We want to get to the bottom of this for the sake of the criminal justice system to get the results and not be stonewalled by attorneys, outside attorneys putting up a roadblock. I don't know what their reasons are. The only thing I want to do is get this investigation done. There's nothing to hide. If there's nothing to hide, why do we have attorneys involved?

>>Steve Goldstein:
In Tucson today, people challenging the adequacy of ELL funding asked the federal judge to force the legislature to hold a special session. Republican legislative leaders assured the judge that progress is underway in creating an instructional model for the program. The judge is considering finding the legislature in contempt of court for not adequately funding the programs. This is just the latest twist in a courtroom and legislative saga that has continued since 1992. Tonight, we begin a four-part series looking at the ELLs. issue called "the cost of teaching English." although this struggle began earlier, a significant event occurred in 2000 with the passage of proposition 203 which stated that ELLs should be educated in immersion programs during a temporary transition period which could be no longer than a year this law effectively limited how kids involved in such programs were taught. Larry Lemmons gives us this background.

>>Teacher:
I want to you look at this page.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Laurie Chavira's first grade class looks like any other class in this elementary school. This class is a structured English immersion class. English isn't the first language for these students. Observing the class, however, it wouldn't be obvious. There are currently over 100,000 students enrolled in English language learner programs in Arizona.

>>Mickey Gutier
We just closed off fiscal year 07 it's hovering about 139,600.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Mickey Gutierrez with the Arizona department of education is opening this training session for those that will be administering the English language learner assessment or azela. The azela measures English language proficiency for students. Students take the azela after filling out the primary home language other than English home language survey or float.

>>Mickey Gutier:
The kids come in, if they put something other than English on the home language survey, then that triggers the school to test the child with the azela. The child takes the azela test and if the kid scores pre-immersion or immersion or basic or intermediate on the azela, then they're placed into an English learner program with parental consent.

>>Larry Lemmons:
The structured English immersion class is the norm today, but it wasn't always so.

>>Jeff Macswan:
Starting back in the '90's, we had a variety of program options available. English as a second language. 70\% of kids were in that model. Bilingual education was another model. There was a variety of bilingual education called the bilingual maintenance model. 30\% of kids were in that bilingual program. That the primary way or the diversity of ways in which kids were taught prior to prop 203.

>>Larry Lemmons:
That initiative replaced bilingual education in Arizona schools with structured English immersion. Margaret Garcia-Dugan is currently the deputy's superintendent of public instruction. She was the principal at Glendale high school while promoting proposition 203. She says bilingual education was not serving the students adequately.

>>Margaret Garcia-Dugan:
what we were receiving in the '80's and '90's were students that come to us from the feeder elementary that had been in this country all of their elementary years or half of their elementary school years and they weren't proficient in English.

>>Jeff Macswan:
I have heard these stories but they're not documented of kids that start out in elementary school and by the time they're in high school, they don't know English. I find that very difficult to believe. I've asked for documentation for that. It's not been presented.

>>Larry Lemmons:
The current superintendent, Tom Horn, ran on a platform he would enforce proposition 203 which passed by 63\% of Arizona voters in 2000. Arizona has ranked near the bottom of all states in first student spending for several years. The Flores lawsuit in 1992 which to this day hasn't been settled claimed the civil rights of limited English proficient students had been violated because the state didn't adequately fund language programs. Clearly, there's disagreement as to whether or not there is sufficient money to pay for e.l.l. programs.

>>Margaret Garcia-Dugan:
All districts that have English language learners for the most part are what we call title one schools. They all have title one students which a lot of our e.l.l. students because of the very nature they can't speak, read and write English identifies them as a title one student by the federal government and we do receive money for those students in title one from the federal government as well as an entitlement also called title three for English language learners. So, do we have enough money? That's the big question. I believe if the money was just earmarked exactly for the classroom, all the way of the funds that we receive $355 and if we utilize the federal money as well to supplement, you should have enough money.

>>Larry Lemmons:
There's also disagreement to this day as to the effectiveness of bilingual education compared to the structured English immersion in effect today in most schools.

>>Jeff Macswan:
I did a study with colleagues looking into this. We had access to the state's language proficiency testing data. We were able to look at how kids did from one year to the next. We were interested in seeing for those kids who scored non-proficient at one point in time, a year later, we asked, how many of those kids became proficient? If s.c.i. is effective, it should be a high number. If s.c.i. is not effective, it'll be a low number. In fact it was 11\%. 11\% of those kids became efficient. We don't know because we don't have the data what the numbers looked like a year later, but you're clearly in a situation where kids, many, many kids, are going for years and years in an educational environment where they can't understand what's going on because for political reasons, the superintendent and others severely limit their access to instruction in their home language.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Despite controversies, structured English immersion is the law of Arizona. This first grade class appears to reflect the success of that program.

>>Margaret Garcia-Dugan:
Most of our students that come into Arizona as an English language learner, 61\% are k-3. If we're able to get those kids at an early age and teach them English, because their minds are like little sponges, they'll pick up English really quickly, there's no reason those kids shouldn't acquire enough English to be mainstreamed. I would think no more than a year and, ok, I'll give it maybe two years for some, but it shouldn't be the five to seven years that we were accustomed to seeing.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Proponents of bilingualism say it still should be available if enough waivers of structured English immersion is signed by parents.

>>Jeff Macswan:
By law, we could have and should have much more access to bilingual education. I would like to see a system where not just language minority kids have access to bilingualism but all kids have access to bilingualism.

>>Steve Goldstein:
Every Monday evening, we feature two political experts going one-on-one on issues that affect the state. Tonight, Sam Coppersmith of the law firm Coppersmith, Gordon, Schermer and Brockelman goes head-to-head with public affairs consultant and conservative leader Sydney Hay.

>>San Coppersmith:
Our first topic tonight, big news in Washington, the resignation of attorney general Alberto Gonzales. Sydney? Do either of us have anything nice to say about Alberto Gonzales?

>>Sydney Hay:
I'm not a big fan. When he was white house counsel, -- I think he was involved in getting federal judicial appointments through some judges that might want to interpret laws rather than write them from the bench. There were good judicial appointments he helped with but --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
But his last job was ok but this one --

>>Sydney Hay:
I have to search for something. There are a couple of things that are important to me. One is I hope President Bush when he chooses the replacement will choose an attorney general that's got greater respect for the second amendment liberties for American citizens because I think Alberto Gonzales was quite hostile to the individual right of people to keep and bear arms.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Why pick up that right as opposed to all the things in the Constitution he was hostile towards?

>>Sydney Hay:
That's the one that jumped out the most to me because maybe -- and maybe this is an example of something that goes beyond second amendment liberties, because he pushed really hard for congress to pass a law that would have given him the ability to pick and choose just really with whatever evidence he chose to decide an American citizen wasn't able to own or purchase a weapon with very -- just, just -- maybe just a spurious allegation that he might be a bad guy with no proof --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Why should that Constitutional right be treated any differently from the administration than any other ones whether it's right to counsel, right to habeas corpus, stopping people from abuse and inhumane treatment, holding people indefinitely without charge --

>>Sydney Hay:
How should we -- what's your solution been with how we should treat our terrorists that want us all dead?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
The judicial system in the Constitution stood the test of time. I'm willing to believe in the Constitution, not just one little piece of it.

>>Sydney Hay:
Another thing I'm not happy about --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Let me dump on him for a little while now. What I want to know before we go into the next topic is remember when all the team used to say when Janet Reno was the attorney general of the Clinton administration, the attorney general can't see himself or herself as the president's lawyer. You have to be independent. You have some sort of independent portfolio and you've got -- where did all those people go?

>>Sydney Hay:
Maybe that came from him being white house counsel where that was his job and then transferring to attorney general, I don't know. The border security issue with him is another thing I was disappointed with him on --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Is that him or the Bush administration?

>>Sydney Hay:
They have 12 years for -- oh, more than most murderers get. That's a problem for me. We have to move on. I'm getting the high sign. We have to move onto presidential politics. I know you and I are supporting men for the president of United States. People are calling in a second tier of presidents.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
I know Governor Bill Richardson who is governor of New Mexico. I knew him when I served in the House of Representatives. I'm supporting him. You're supporting Duncan Hunter. Both are free to dish, as we will with the front-runners.

>>Sydney Hay:
Exactly.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
What may turn out though is the big news that Florida on the democratic side, Florida --

>>Sydney Hay:
I thought you were going to dish on the front-runner and then you didn't do it. I want to know what you're going to think of Hillary Clinton or Obama?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
I think both of them would make -- I'm sorry to darn them with faint praise but either would be miles ahead of the current occupant of the office.

>>Sydney Hay:
What about as commander-in-chief? Are either qualified to be commander at chief while we're at war? That's what I like about bill Richardson from your field of candidates. He's the one that could step into the role without the tremendous learning curve but Obama?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Both Obama and Clinton certainly have the yards of experience than the current guy serving the champagne squadron. The Texas Air National Guard, I don't think, has proven to be great if you wanted -- the biggest thing about experience is the counterexample, Dick Cheney. I think it's severely overrated.

>>Sydney Hay:
Well --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
What about on the republican side?

>>Sydney Hay:
That's why I support Hunter. He's been an army ranger. He's been boots on the ground. As chairman of army services, he's executed a lot of the ability of our military to execute this war and other wars. So I think he's the guy that's ready to be commander-in-chief. As far as the top tier, I have some serious issues. I don't think Giuliani is as conservative as I'd like. Mitt Romney has flip-flopped on so many issues. If you're going to call Kerry a flip-flopper, you have to call Romney a flip-flopper. I'm not sure about Thompson. He plays a political guy on TV. Does that qualify him to be in the white house? I'm not sure it does.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
You mentioned war. Is there a country Duncan Hunter wouldn't attack?

>>Sydney Hay:
Come on we have a serious crisis in the world this jihadist mentality that wants us all dead when Ronald Reagan executed the cold war, his strategy was simple. We win, the Russians lose. That's what happened. But it was a situation where the Russians had all of their nuclear arsenal and we had all of our nuclear arsenal, but they didn't want to die anymore we did. These are the guys that want us dead. We like life. They have said openly they think they can beat us because they like death.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
You -- I don't know why you're so scared. You know? I don't understand what this whole thing about fear is. United States is extraordinarily powerful and our country could put up with an awful lot. We'll triumph in the long run. I don't think you understand the power of the United States and the power of our culture.

>>Sydney Hay:
What about our open border? We don't know what's coming in this country. We don't know what they're bringing with them.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
That's not a weakness. That's strength.

>>Sydney Hay:
Suitcase nuclear weapon? Aren't you concerned of something going off down in downtown phoenix that doesn't kill 3,000 people --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Why does the administration -- why doesn't the administration want to search all cargo ships? Why doesn't -- why don't you concentrate on those types of things if that's what you're worried about.

>>Sydney Hay:
We have to know what is coming into this country. You're right, the administration has failed. They've had a case of the slows in getting the border fence built when that law was passed last October. As slowly as they're going, it'll take them 40 years to get it done.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Iraq is totally off center from everything you've been talking about.

>>Sydney Hay:
Iraq is off center? I don't know what you mean! Iraq is -- if we would withdraw out of Iraq now, we'll leave in the middle east a giant training ground for al Qaeda. They will have a base of operation there unlike they have ever had. We have got to finish the job there. Do the job, built up the Iraqi army so they can defend that democratically elected government and then we can leave.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
You support government? Mlicki is the guy that's been elected? You're willing to support him?

>>Sydney Hay:
I support the Iraqi people. They've freely elected the government. Now they have to stand up a military with our help capable of protecting that government. It's not government I would have chosen. It's the government they chose. We can't abandon them now. We can't do that we need to leave at least a semblance of a democratic nation there in the Middle East. That'll be a huge victory for liberty throughout the world!

>>Sam Coppersmith:
It's a -- I think it's a myth. And I'll just quote Ronald Reagan at you. Reagan realized he pulled the American marines out of Beirut. Five years later, the sheriff agreement was signed. We don't have to be there it's a mistake.

>>Sydney Hay:
It's a different world today.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
We're done.

>>Sydney Hay:
That's it?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
That's it.

>>Steve Goldstein:
You probably know that one of the reasons it's so hot in the valley is because there's so much concrete. The pavement absorbs the heat during the day, so when night comes, it doesn't cool down as much as it would without pavement. ASU's school of sustainability is coming up with ways to reduce the urban heat effect. Larry Lemmons spoke with ASU's Jay Golden in our sustainability segment.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Dr. Golden, a friend of mine told me that growing up in Arizona really wasn't too bad. He was in a rural area and even though it was hot during the day in the summer, at night it really didn't cool off. The cool, desert nights were cooler back then because there was no urban heat effect. What is that?

>>Jay Golden: being here for over 20 years, I've experienced myself too. What happens is that as we down grow in this valley, we transition from native vegetation whether that's our barrel cactus or trees and we replace it with engineered materials for buildings and pavements, etc. And what happens is we retain that heat, so the sun provides us this warming effect. The materials themselves retain overnight. Instead of quickly releasing back into the atmosphere at night we find it stays warmer. In fact, not only through the night but into the early morning hours up to 14 degrees Fahrenheit difference between central phoenix and the adjacent rural area like casa grande national monument.

>>Larry Lemmons:
I was surprised when I moved out here. I walked outside at 10:00 at night and it was still 100 degrees outside. Oh, this is what it's like. What are you guys doing, then, at school of sustainability -- what sort of research are you doing to try to alleviate that?

>>Jay Golden:
Working on a number of fronts. First, we want to understand what are the problems associated with it? And then from there we can identify what are some mitigation strategies that the general public and communities can use? Those are basically right now three main initial programs. One is urban forestry or planting of trees. Though we have to be very careful how go that, because sometimes the pavements have a tendency to make the smallest of trees small growth and they don't last very long. Then there are the payments that are more porous. Then there are cooler roof materials. The coatings that could be used on roofs that activate by temperature, kind of like your glasses when you go outside. The u.v. hits it and changes color when you go outside. Then change colors. We're looking at a variety of opportunities to have our materials adapt to the environment more sustainable.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Pervious pavement too, can you tell us about that.

>>Jay Golden:
That could be a concrete pavement or asphalt pavement. We lose most of the sand. It has 20\% to 30\% voids in the material itself it allows water and moisture to go in. Just as importantly cools off rapidly at night. At some points also during the day. Many communities around the country from urban heat are requiring planting millions of trees or canopy coverage of the trees. You can't do that unless you think of the whole system. This pervious pavement is one such example.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Ecologically speaking, how does it affect the area? Would you need more water for the trees?

>>Jay Golden:
Certainly. You have to look at the water balance. Thermal electric power, coal requires a lot of water. We use more and more electricity with the air-conditioning. The other part of this we have to think of too, what happens, god forbid, when the electricity stops? Whether we overload the system or have the tree branch fall down on a 500 kV line somewhere in the state of Washington which happens. By adapting to the urban heat on we're protecting our community in the most vulnerable part of the community.

>>Larry Lemmons:
We only have 30 seconds. Can you tell us what is coming up in November you were telling me about?

>>Jay Golden:
The Arizona state university and the global institute of sustainability is hosting with the environmental protection agency, U.S. centers for disease control and the national weather service a three-day workshop on climate change and urban heat element and what could be done for it. We'll have mayors from cities around the country involved with that as well as the general public and the media itself and we look forward to being able to communicate all the different types of mitigation strategies and policies working around the country.

>>Larry Lemmons:
November what now?

>>Jay Golden:
14 through the 16.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Dr. Golden, thank you for joining us.

>>Jay Golden:
Thank you.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Continuing our series on teaching English in Arizona, we look back to the original case that began the English learners issue in our state. Those stories Tuesday on "Horizon."

>>Steve Goldstein:
Wednesday, we'll continue our series on English language learners with a look at how the drama played out in the legislature. Thursday, we'll examine our model being suggested for e.l.l. funding. Friday, join us for the journalists' roundtable.

>>Steve Goldstein:
That's "Horizon" for a Monday night. I'm Steve Goldstein. Thank you very much for watching. Hope to see you back here tomorrow night.

The Cost of Teaching English Part 1


Guests:
  • Sam Coppersmith - Coppersmith, Gordon, Schermer and Brockelman
  • Sydney Hay - Public affairs consultant and Conservative leader
  • Jay Golden - School of Sustainability, Arizona State University
Category: Education

View Transcript
>>Announcer:
Tonight on "Horizon," we begin a four-part series looking at the cost of teaching English to kids in English language learner programs. Two political types go head-to-head on issues that affect Arizona in our regular Monday feature one-on-one. And something that could keep us cooler on these hot summer days, how different pavements could reduce the urban heat effect: next on "Horizon."

>>Steve Goldstein:
Good evening I'm Steve Goldstein. Welcome to "Horizon." The Maricopa County Attorney's Office filed suit today against Arizona attorney general Terry Goddard claiming he's blocking an investigation by Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's office. The sheriff's office is looking into claims that the attorney general's office gave former state treasurer David Peterson a favorable criminal plea after the treasurer's office transferred $1.9 million in disputed funds to the attorney general's office. In a press conference today, county attorney Andrew Thomas and Sheriff Arpaio both said that the attorney general's office is potentially having a chilling effect on witnesses being interviewed in the investigation. Arpaio and Thomas said that's because Ed Novak, a criminal defense attorney hired to represent the attorney general's office, is present during interviews with the witnesses. Goddard's office released a statement saying it does not comment on grand jury investigations, but did say that Novak is representing the a.g.'s office, not Goddard. Goddard's actions angered the sheriff.

>>Joe Arpaio:
I'm a little aggravated. We have an investigation involving the former state treasurer and the attorney general. We're putting a lot of resources on this investigation for this type of activity to occur, we're being stonewalled it makes me very, very angry. We want to get to the bottom of this for the sake of the criminal justice system to get the results and not be stonewalled by attorneys, outside attorneys putting up a roadblock. I don't know what their reasons are. The only thing I want to do is get this investigation done. There's nothing to hide. If there's nothing to hide, why do we have attorneys involved?

>>Steve Goldstein:
In Tucson today, people challenging the adequacy of ELL funding asked the federal judge to force the legislature to hold a special session. Republican legislative leaders assured the judge that progress is underway in creating an instructional model for the program. The judge is considering finding the legislature in contempt of court for not adequately funding the programs. This is just the latest twist in a courtroom and legislative saga that has continued since 1992. Tonight, we begin a four-part series looking at the ELLs. issue called "the cost of teaching English." although this struggle began earlier, a significant event occurred in 2000 with the passage of proposition 203 which stated that ELLs should be educated in immersion programs during a temporary transition period which could be no longer than a year this law effectively limited how kids involved in such programs were taught. Larry Lemmons gives us this background.

>>Teacher:
I want to you look at this page.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Laurie Chavira's first grade class looks like any other class in this elementary school. This class is a structured English immersion class. English isn't the first language for these students. Observing the class, however, it wouldn't be obvious. There are currently over 100,000 students enrolled in English language learner programs in Arizona.

>>Mickey Gutier
We just closed off fiscal year 07 it's hovering about 139,600.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Mickey Gutierrez with the Arizona department of education is opening this training session for those that will be administering the English language learner assessment or azela. The azela measures English language proficiency for students. Students take the azela after filling out the primary home language other than English home language survey or float.

>>Mickey Gutier:
The kids come in, if they put something other than English on the home language survey, then that triggers the school to test the child with the azela. The child takes the azela test and if the kid scores pre-immersion or immersion or basic or intermediate on the azela, then they're placed into an English learner program with parental consent.

>>Larry Lemmons:
The structured English immersion class is the norm today, but it wasn't always so.

>>Jeff Macswan:
Starting back in the '90's, we had a variety of program options available. English as a second language. 70\% of kids were in that model. Bilingual education was another model. There was a variety of bilingual education called the bilingual maintenance model. 30\% of kids were in that bilingual program. That the primary way or the diversity of ways in which kids were taught prior to prop 203.

>>Larry Lemmons:
That initiative replaced bilingual education in Arizona schools with structured English immersion. Margaret Garcia-Dugan is currently the deputy's superintendent of public instruction. She was the principal at Glendale high school while promoting proposition 203. She says bilingual education was not serving the students adequately.

>>Margaret Garcia-Dugan:
what we were receiving in the '80's and '90's were students that come to us from the feeder elementary that had been in this country all of their elementary years or half of their elementary school years and they weren't proficient in English.

>>Jeff Macswan:
I have heard these stories but they're not documented of kids that start out in elementary school and by the time they're in high school, they don't know English. I find that very difficult to believe. I've asked for documentation for that. It's not been presented.

>>Larry Lemmons:
The current superintendent, Tom Horn, ran on a platform he would enforce proposition 203 which passed by 63\% of Arizona voters in 2000. Arizona has ranked near the bottom of all states in first student spending for several years. The Flores lawsuit in 1992 which to this day hasn't been settled claimed the civil rights of limited English proficient students had been violated because the state didn't adequately fund language programs. Clearly, there's disagreement as to whether or not there is sufficient money to pay for e.l.l. programs.

>>Margaret Garcia-Dugan:
All districts that have English language learners for the most part are what we call title one schools. They all have title one students which a lot of our e.l.l. students because of the very nature they can't speak, read and write English identifies them as a title one student by the federal government and we do receive money for those students in title one from the federal government as well as an entitlement also called title three for English language learners. So, do we have enough money? That's the big question. I believe if the money was just earmarked exactly for the classroom, all the way of the funds that we receive $355 and if we utilize the federal money as well to supplement, you should have enough money.

>>Larry Lemmons:
There's also disagreement to this day as to the effectiveness of bilingual education compared to the structured English immersion in effect today in most schools.

>>Jeff Macswan:
I did a study with colleagues looking into this. We had access to the state's language proficiency testing data. We were able to look at how kids did from one year to the next. We were interested in seeing for those kids who scored non-proficient at one point in time, a year later, we asked, how many of those kids became proficient? If s.c.i. is effective, it should be a high number. If s.c.i. is not effective, it'll be a low number. In fact it was 11\%. 11\% of those kids became efficient. We don't know because we don't have the data what the numbers looked like a year later, but you're clearly in a situation where kids, many, many kids, are going for years and years in an educational environment where they can't understand what's going on because for political reasons, the superintendent and others severely limit their access to instruction in their home language.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Despite controversies, structured English immersion is the law of Arizona. This first grade class appears to reflect the success of that program.

>>Margaret Garcia-Dugan:
Most of our students that come into Arizona as an English language learner, 61\% are k-3. If we're able to get those kids at an early age and teach them English, because their minds are like little sponges, they'll pick up English really quickly, there's no reason those kids shouldn't acquire enough English to be mainstreamed. I would think no more than a year and, ok, I'll give it maybe two years for some, but it shouldn't be the five to seven years that we were accustomed to seeing.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Proponents of bilingualism say it still should be available if enough waivers of structured English immersion is signed by parents.

>>Jeff Macswan:
By law, we could have and should have much more access to bilingual education. I would like to see a system where not just language minority kids have access to bilingualism but all kids have access to bilingualism.

>>Steve Goldstein:
Every Monday evening, we feature two political experts going one-on-one on issues that affect the state. Tonight, Sam Coppersmith of the law firm Coppersmith, Gordon, Schermer and Brockelman goes head-to-head with public affairs consultant and conservative leader Sydney Hay.

>>San Coppersmith:
Our first topic tonight, big news in Washington, the resignation of attorney general Alberto Gonzales. Sydney? Do either of us have anything nice to say about Alberto Gonzales?

>>Sydney Hay:
I'm not a big fan. When he was white house counsel, -- I think he was involved in getting federal judicial appointments through some judges that might want to interpret laws rather than write them from the bench. There were good judicial appointments he helped with but --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
But his last job was ok but this one --

>>Sydney Hay:
I have to search for something. There are a couple of things that are important to me. One is I hope President Bush when he chooses the replacement will choose an attorney general that's got greater respect for the second amendment liberties for American citizens because I think Alberto Gonzales was quite hostile to the individual right of people to keep and bear arms.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Why pick up that right as opposed to all the things in the Constitution he was hostile towards?

>>Sydney Hay:
That's the one that jumped out the most to me because maybe -- and maybe this is an example of something that goes beyond second amendment liberties, because he pushed really hard for congress to pass a law that would have given him the ability to pick and choose just really with whatever evidence he chose to decide an American citizen wasn't able to own or purchase a weapon with very -- just, just -- maybe just a spurious allegation that he might be a bad guy with no proof --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Why should that Constitutional right be treated any differently from the administration than any other ones whether it's right to counsel, right to habeas corpus, stopping people from abuse and inhumane treatment, holding people indefinitely without charge --

>>Sydney Hay:
How should we -- what's your solution been with how we should treat our terrorists that want us all dead?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
The judicial system in the Constitution stood the test of time. I'm willing to believe in the Constitution, not just one little piece of it.

>>Sydney Hay:
Another thing I'm not happy about --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Let me dump on him for a little while now. What I want to know before we go into the next topic is remember when all the team used to say when Janet Reno was the attorney general of the Clinton administration, the attorney general can't see himself or herself as the president's lawyer. You have to be independent. You have some sort of independent portfolio and you've got -- where did all those people go?

>>Sydney Hay:
Maybe that came from him being white house counsel where that was his job and then transferring to attorney general, I don't know. The border security issue with him is another thing I was disappointed with him on --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Is that him or the Bush administration?

>>Sydney Hay:
They have 12 years for -- oh, more than most murderers get. That's a problem for me. We have to move on. I'm getting the high sign. We have to move onto presidential politics. I know you and I are supporting men for the president of United States. People are calling in a second tier of presidents.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
I know Governor Bill Richardson who is governor of New Mexico. I knew him when I served in the House of Representatives. I'm supporting him. You're supporting Duncan Hunter. Both are free to dish, as we will with the front-runners.

>>Sydney Hay:
Exactly.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
What may turn out though is the big news that Florida on the democratic side, Florida --

>>Sydney Hay:
I thought you were going to dish on the front-runner and then you didn't do it. I want to know what you're going to think of Hillary Clinton or Obama?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
I think both of them would make -- I'm sorry to darn them with faint praise but either would be miles ahead of the current occupant of the office.

>>Sydney Hay:
What about as commander-in-chief? Are either qualified to be commander at chief while we're at war? That's what I like about bill Richardson from your field of candidates. He's the one that could step into the role without the tremendous learning curve but Obama?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Both Obama and Clinton certainly have the yards of experience than the current guy serving the champagne squadron. The Texas Air National Guard, I don't think, has proven to be great if you wanted -- the biggest thing about experience is the counterexample, Dick Cheney. I think it's severely overrated.

>>Sydney Hay:
Well --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
What about on the republican side?

>>Sydney Hay:
That's why I support Hunter. He's been an army ranger. He's been boots on the ground. As chairman of army services, he's executed a lot of the ability of our military to execute this war and other wars. So I think he's the guy that's ready to be commander-in-chief. As far as the top tier, I have some serious issues. I don't think Giuliani is as conservative as I'd like. Mitt Romney has flip-flopped on so many issues. If you're going to call Kerry a flip-flopper, you have to call Romney a flip-flopper. I'm not sure about Thompson. He plays a political guy on TV. Does that qualify him to be in the white house? I'm not sure it does.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
You mentioned war. Is there a country Duncan Hunter wouldn't attack?

>>Sydney Hay:
Come on we have a serious crisis in the world this jihadist mentality that wants us all dead when Ronald Reagan executed the cold war, his strategy was simple. We win, the Russians lose. That's what happened. But it was a situation where the Russians had all of their nuclear arsenal and we had all of our nuclear arsenal, but they didn't want to die anymore we did. These are the guys that want us dead. We like life. They have said openly they think they can beat us because they like death.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
You -- I don't know why you're so scared. You know? I don't understand what this whole thing about fear is. United States is extraordinarily powerful and our country could put up with an awful lot. We'll triumph in the long run. I don't think you understand the power of the United States and the power of our culture.

>>Sydney Hay:
What about our open border? We don't know what's coming in this country. We don't know what they're bringing with them.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
That's not a weakness. That's strength.

>>Sydney Hay:
Suitcase nuclear weapon? Aren't you concerned of something going off down in downtown phoenix that doesn't kill 3,000 people --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Why does the administration -- why doesn't the administration want to search all cargo ships? Why doesn't -- why don't you concentrate on those types of things if that's what you're worried about.

>>Sydney Hay:
We have to know what is coming into this country. You're right, the administration has failed. They've had a case of the slows in getting the border fence built when that law was passed last October. As slowly as they're going, it'll take them 40 years to get it done.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Iraq is totally off center from everything you've been talking about.

>>Sydney Hay:
Iraq is off center? I don't know what you mean! Iraq is -- if we would withdraw out of Iraq now, we'll leave in the middle east a giant training ground for al Qaeda. They will have a base of operation there unlike they have ever had. We have got to finish the job there. Do the job, built up the Iraqi army so they can defend that democratically elected government and then we can leave.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
You support government? Mlicki is the guy that's been elected? You're willing to support him?

>>Sydney Hay:
I support the Iraqi people. They've freely elected the government. Now they have to stand up a military with our help capable of protecting that government. It's not government I would have chosen. It's the government they chose. We can't abandon them now. We can't do that we need to leave at least a semblance of a democratic nation there in the Middle East. That'll be a huge victory for liberty throughout the world!

>>Sam Coppersmith:
It's a -- I think it's a myth. And I'll just quote Ronald Reagan at you. Reagan realized he pulled the American marines out of Beirut. Five years later, the sheriff agreement was signed. We don't have to be there it's a mistake.

>>Sydney Hay:
It's a different world today.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
We're done.

>>Sydney Hay:
That's it?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
That's it.

>>Steve Goldstein:
You probably know that one of the reasons it's so hot in the valley is because there's so much concrete. The pavement absorbs the heat during the day, so when night comes, it doesn't cool down as much as it would without pavement. ASU's school of sustainability is coming up with ways to reduce the urban heat effect. Larry Lemmons spoke with ASU's Jay Golden in our sustainability segment.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Dr. Golden, a friend of mine told me that growing up in Arizona really wasn't too bad. He was in a rural area and even though it was hot during the day in the summer, at night it really didn't cool off. The cool, desert nights were cooler back then because there was no urban heat effect. What is that?

>>Jay Golden: being here for over 20 years, I've experienced myself too. What happens is that as we down grow in this valley, we transition from native vegetation whether that's our barrel cactus or trees and we replace it with engineered materials for buildings and pavements, etc. And what happens is we retain that heat, so the sun provides us this warming effect. The materials themselves retain overnight. Instead of quickly releasing back into the atmosphere at night we find it stays warmer. In fact, not only through the night but into the early morning hours up to 14 degrees Fahrenheit difference between central phoenix and the adjacent rural area like casa grande national monument.

>>Larry Lemmons:
I was surprised when I moved out here. I walked outside at 10:00 at night and it was still 100 degrees outside. Oh, this is what it's like. What are you guys doing, then, at school of sustainability -- what sort of research are you doing to try to alleviate that?

>>Jay Golden:
Working on a number of fronts. First, we want to understand what are the problems associated with it? And then from there we can identify what are some mitigation strategies that the general public and communities can use? Those are basically right now three main initial programs. One is urban forestry or planting of trees. Though we have to be very careful how go that, because sometimes the pavements have a tendency to make the smallest of trees small growth and they don't last very long. Then there are the payments that are more porous. Then there are cooler roof materials. The coatings that could be used on roofs that activate by temperature, kind of like your glasses when you go outside. The u.v. hits it and changes color when you go outside. Then change colors. We're looking at a variety of opportunities to have our materials adapt to the environment more sustainable.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Pervious pavement too, can you tell us about that.

>>Jay Golden:
That could be a concrete pavement or asphalt pavement. We lose most of the sand. It has 20\% to 30\% voids in the material itself it allows water and moisture to go in. Just as importantly cools off rapidly at night. At some points also during the day. Many communities around the country from urban heat are requiring planting millions of trees or canopy coverage of the trees. You can't do that unless you think of the whole system. This pervious pavement is one such example.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Ecologically speaking, how does it affect the area? Would you need more water for the trees?

>>Jay Golden:
Certainly. You have to look at the water balance. Thermal electric power, coal requires a lot of water. We use more and more electricity with the air-conditioning. The other part of this we have to think of too, what happens, god forbid, when the electricity stops? Whether we overload the system or have the tree branch fall down on a 500 kV line somewhere in the state of Washington which happens. By adapting to the urban heat on we're protecting our community in the most vulnerable part of the community.

>>Larry Lemmons:
We only have 30 seconds. Can you tell us what is coming up in November you were telling me about?

>>Jay Golden:
The Arizona state university and the global institute of sustainability is hosting with the environmental protection agency, U.S. centers for disease control and the national weather service a three-day workshop on climate change and urban heat element and what could be done for it. We'll have mayors from cities around the country involved with that as well as the general public and the media itself and we look forward to being able to communicate all the different types of mitigation strategies and policies working around the country.

>>Larry Lemmons:
November what now?

>>Jay Golden:
14 through the 16.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Dr. Golden, thank you for joining us.

>>Jay Golden:
Thank you.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Continuing our series on teaching English in Arizona, we look back to the original case that began the English learners issue in our state. Those stories Tuesday on "Horizon."

>>Steve Goldstein:
Wednesday, we'll continue our series on English language learners with a look at how the drama played out in the legislature. Thursday, we'll examine our model being suggested for e.l.l. funding. Friday, join us for the journalists' roundtable.

>>Steve Goldstein:
That's "Horizon" for a Monday night. I'm Steve Goldstein. Thank you very much for watching. Hope to see you back here tomorrow night.

Urban Heat Effect


Guests:
  • Sam Coppersmith - Coppersmith, Gordon, Schermer and Brockelman
  • Sydney Hay - Public affairs consultant and Conservative leader
  • Jay Golden - School of Sustainability, Arizona State University
Category: Sustainability

View Transcript
>>Announcer:
Tonight on "Horizon," we begin a four-part series looking at the cost of teaching English to kids in English language learner programs. Two political types go head-to-head on issues that affect Arizona in our regular Monday feature one-on-one. And something that could keep us cooler on these hot summer days, how different pavements could reduce the urban heat effect: next on "Horizon."

>>Steve Goldstein:
Good evening I'm Steve Goldstein. Welcome to "Horizon." The Maricopa County Attorney's Office filed suit today against Arizona attorney general Terry Goddard claiming he's blocking an investigation by Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio's office. The sheriff's office is looking into claims that the attorney general's office gave former state treasurer David Peterson a favorable criminal plea after the treasurer's office transferred $1.9 million in disputed funds to the attorney general's office. In a press conference today, county attorney Andrew Thomas and Sheriff Arpaio both said that the attorney general's office is potentially having a chilling effect on witnesses being interviewed in the investigation. Arpaio and Thomas said that's because Ed Novak, a criminal defense attorney hired to represent the attorney general's office, is present during interviews with the witnesses. Goddard's office released a statement saying it does not comment on grand jury investigations, but did say that Novak is representing the a.g.'s office, not Goddard. Goddard's actions angered the sheriff.

>>Joe Arpaio:
I'm a little aggravated. We have an investigation involving the former state treasurer and the attorney general. We're putting a lot of resources on this investigation for this type of activity to occur, we're being stonewalled it makes me very, very angry. We want to get to the bottom of this for the sake of the criminal justice system to get the results and not be stonewalled by attorneys, outside attorneys putting up a roadblock. I don't know what their reasons are. The only thing I want to do is get this investigation done. There's nothing to hide. If there's nothing to hide, why do we have attorneys involved?

>>Steve Goldstein:
In Tucson today, people challenging the adequacy of ELL funding asked the federal judge to force the legislature to hold a special session. Republican legislative leaders assured the judge that progress is underway in creating an instructional model for the program. The judge is considering finding the legislature in contempt of court for not adequately funding the programs. This is just the latest twist in a courtroom and legislative saga that has continued since 1992. Tonight, we begin a four-part series looking at the ELLs. issue called "the cost of teaching English." although this struggle began earlier, a significant event occurred in 2000 with the passage of proposition 203 which stated that ELLs should be educated in immersion programs during a temporary transition period which could be no longer than a year this law effectively limited how kids involved in such programs were taught. Larry Lemmons gives us this background.

>>Teacher:
I want to you look at this page.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Laurie Chavira's first grade class looks like any other class in this elementary school. This class is a structured English immersion class. English isn't the first language for these students. Observing the class, however, it wouldn't be obvious. There are currently over 100,000 students enrolled in English language learner programs in Arizona.

>>Mickey Gutier
We just closed off fiscal year 07 it's hovering about 139,600.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Mickey Gutierrez with the Arizona department of education is opening this training session for those that will be administering the English language learner assessment or azela. The azela measures English language proficiency for students. Students take the azela after filling out the primary home language other than English home language survey or float.

>>Mickey Gutier:
The kids come in, if they put something other than English on the home language survey, then that triggers the school to test the child with the azela. The child takes the azela test and if the kid scores pre-immersion or immersion or basic or intermediate on the azela, then they're placed into an English learner program with parental consent.

>>Larry Lemmons:
The structured English immersion class is the norm today, but it wasn't always so.

>>Jeff Macswan:
Starting back in the '90's, we had a variety of program options available. English as a second language. 70\% of kids were in that model. Bilingual education was another model. There was a variety of bilingual education called the bilingual maintenance model. 30\% of kids were in that bilingual program. That the primary way or the diversity of ways in which kids were taught prior to prop 203.

>>Larry Lemmons:
That initiative replaced bilingual education in Arizona schools with structured English immersion. Margaret Garcia-Dugan is currently the deputy's superintendent of public instruction. She was the principal at Glendale high school while promoting proposition 203. She says bilingual education was not serving the students adequately.

>>Margaret Garcia-Dugan:
what we were receiving in the '80's and '90's were students that come to us from the feeder elementary that had been in this country all of their elementary years or half of their elementary school years and they weren't proficient in English.

>>Jeff Macswan:
I have heard these stories but they're not documented of kids that start out in elementary school and by the time they're in high school, they don't know English. I find that very difficult to believe. I've asked for documentation for that. It's not been presented.

>>Larry Lemmons:
The current superintendent, Tom Horn, ran on a platform he would enforce proposition 203 which passed by 63\% of Arizona voters in 2000. Arizona has ranked near the bottom of all states in first student spending for several years. The Flores lawsuit in 1992 which to this day hasn't been settled claimed the civil rights of limited English proficient students had been violated because the state didn't adequately fund language programs. Clearly, there's disagreement as to whether or not there is sufficient money to pay for e.l.l. programs.

>>Margaret Garcia-Dugan:
All districts that have English language learners for the most part are what we call title one schools. They all have title one students which a lot of our e.l.l. students because of the very nature they can't speak, read and write English identifies them as a title one student by the federal government and we do receive money for those students in title one from the federal government as well as an entitlement also called title three for English language learners. So, do we have enough money? That's the big question. I believe if the money was just earmarked exactly for the classroom, all the way of the funds that we receive $355 and if we utilize the federal money as well to supplement, you should have enough money.

>>Larry Lemmons:
There's also disagreement to this day as to the effectiveness of bilingual education compared to the structured English immersion in effect today in most schools.

>>Jeff Macswan:
I did a study with colleagues looking into this. We had access to the state's language proficiency testing data. We were able to look at how kids did from one year to the next. We were interested in seeing for those kids who scored non-proficient at one point in time, a year later, we asked, how many of those kids became proficient? If s.c.i. is effective, it should be a high number. If s.c.i. is not effective, it'll be a low number. In fact it was 11\%. 11\% of those kids became efficient. We don't know because we don't have the data what the numbers looked like a year later, but you're clearly in a situation where kids, many, many kids, are going for years and years in an educational environment where they can't understand what's going on because for political reasons, the superintendent and others severely limit their access to instruction in their home language.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Despite controversies, structured English immersion is the law of Arizona. This first grade class appears to reflect the success of that program.

>>Margaret Garcia-Dugan:
Most of our students that come into Arizona as an English language learner, 61\% are k-3. If we're able to get those kids at an early age and teach them English, because their minds are like little sponges, they'll pick up English really quickly, there's no reason those kids shouldn't acquire enough English to be mainstreamed. I would think no more than a year and, ok, I'll give it maybe two years for some, but it shouldn't be the five to seven years that we were accustomed to seeing.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Proponents of bilingualism say it still should be available if enough waivers of structured English immersion is signed by parents.

>>Jeff Macswan:
By law, we could have and should have much more access to bilingual education. I would like to see a system where not just language minority kids have access to bilingualism but all kids have access to bilingualism.

>>Steve Goldstein:
Every Monday evening, we feature two political experts going one-on-one on issues that affect the state. Tonight, Sam Coppersmith of the law firm Coppersmith, Gordon, Schermer and Brockelman goes head-to-head with public affairs consultant and conservative leader Sydney Hay.

>>San Coppersmith:
Our first topic tonight, big news in Washington, the resignation of attorney general Alberto Gonzales. Sydney? Do either of us have anything nice to say about Alberto Gonzales?

>>Sydney Hay:
I'm not a big fan. When he was white house counsel, -- I think he was involved in getting federal judicial appointments through some judges that might want to interpret laws rather than write them from the bench. There were good judicial appointments he helped with but --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
But his last job was ok but this one --

>>Sydney Hay:
I have to search for something. There are a couple of things that are important to me. One is I hope President Bush when he chooses the replacement will choose an attorney general that's got greater respect for the second amendment liberties for American citizens because I think Alberto Gonzales was quite hostile to the individual right of people to keep and bear arms.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Why pick up that right as opposed to all the things in the Constitution he was hostile towards?

>>Sydney Hay:
That's the one that jumped out the most to me because maybe -- and maybe this is an example of something that goes beyond second amendment liberties, because he pushed really hard for congress to pass a law that would have given him the ability to pick and choose just really with whatever evidence he chose to decide an American citizen wasn't able to own or purchase a weapon with very -- just, just -- maybe just a spurious allegation that he might be a bad guy with no proof --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Why should that Constitutional right be treated any differently from the administration than any other ones whether it's right to counsel, right to habeas corpus, stopping people from abuse and inhumane treatment, holding people indefinitely without charge --

>>Sydney Hay:
How should we -- what's your solution been with how we should treat our terrorists that want us all dead?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
The judicial system in the Constitution stood the test of time. I'm willing to believe in the Constitution, not just one little piece of it.

>>Sydney Hay:
Another thing I'm not happy about --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Let me dump on him for a little while now. What I want to know before we go into the next topic is remember when all the team used to say when Janet Reno was the attorney general of the Clinton administration, the attorney general can't see himself or herself as the president's lawyer. You have to be independent. You have some sort of independent portfolio and you've got -- where did all those people go?

>>Sydney Hay:
Maybe that came from him being white house counsel where that was his job and then transferring to attorney general, I don't know. The border security issue with him is another thing I was disappointed with him on --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Is that him or the Bush administration?

>>Sydney Hay:
They have 12 years for -- oh, more than most murderers get. That's a problem for me. We have to move on. I'm getting the high sign. We have to move onto presidential politics. I know you and I are supporting men for the president of United States. People are calling in a second tier of presidents.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
I know Governor Bill Richardson who is governor of New Mexico. I knew him when I served in the House of Representatives. I'm supporting him. You're supporting Duncan Hunter. Both are free to dish, as we will with the front-runners.

>>Sydney Hay:
Exactly.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
What may turn out though is the big news that Florida on the democratic side, Florida --

>>Sydney Hay:
I thought you were going to dish on the front-runner and then you didn't do it. I want to know what you're going to think of Hillary Clinton or Obama?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
I think both of them would make -- I'm sorry to darn them with faint praise but either would be miles ahead of the current occupant of the office.

>>Sydney Hay:
What about as commander-in-chief? Are either qualified to be commander at chief while we're at war? That's what I like about bill Richardson from your field of candidates. He's the one that could step into the role without the tremendous learning curve but Obama?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Both Obama and Clinton certainly have the yards of experience than the current guy serving the champagne squadron. The Texas Air National Guard, I don't think, has proven to be great if you wanted -- the biggest thing about experience is the counterexample, Dick Cheney. I think it's severely overrated.

>>Sydney Hay:
Well --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
What about on the republican side?

>>Sydney Hay:
That's why I support Hunter. He's been an army ranger. He's been boots on the ground. As chairman of army services, he's executed a lot of the ability of our military to execute this war and other wars. So I think he's the guy that's ready to be commander-in-chief. As far as the top tier, I have some serious issues. I don't think Giuliani is as conservative as I'd like. Mitt Romney has flip-flopped on so many issues. If you're going to call Kerry a flip-flopper, you have to call Romney a flip-flopper. I'm not sure about Thompson. He plays a political guy on TV. Does that qualify him to be in the white house? I'm not sure it does.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
You mentioned war. Is there a country Duncan Hunter wouldn't attack?

>>Sydney Hay:
Come on we have a serious crisis in the world this jihadist mentality that wants us all dead when Ronald Reagan executed the cold war, his strategy was simple. We win, the Russians lose. That's what happened. But it was a situation where the Russians had all of their nuclear arsenal and we had all of our nuclear arsenal, but they didn't want to die anymore we did. These are the guys that want us dead. We like life. They have said openly they think they can beat us because they like death.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
You -- I don't know why you're so scared. You know? I don't understand what this whole thing about fear is. United States is extraordinarily powerful and our country could put up with an awful lot. We'll triumph in the long run. I don't think you understand the power of the United States and the power of our culture.

>>Sydney Hay:
What about our open border? We don't know what's coming in this country. We don't know what they're bringing with them.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
That's not a weakness. That's strength.

>>Sydney Hay:
Suitcase nuclear weapon? Aren't you concerned of something going off down in downtown phoenix that doesn't kill 3,000 people --

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Why does the administration -- why doesn't the administration want to search all cargo ships? Why doesn't -- why don't you concentrate on those types of things if that's what you're worried about.

>>Sydney Hay:
We have to know what is coming into this country. You're right, the administration has failed. They've had a case of the slows in getting the border fence built when that law was passed last October. As slowly as they're going, it'll take them 40 years to get it done.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
Iraq is totally off center from everything you've been talking about.

>>Sydney Hay:
Iraq is off center? I don't know what you mean! Iraq is -- if we would withdraw out of Iraq now, we'll leave in the middle east a giant training ground for al Qaeda. They will have a base of operation there unlike they have ever had. We have got to finish the job there. Do the job, built up the Iraqi army so they can defend that democratically elected government and then we can leave.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
You support government? Mlicki is the guy that's been elected? You're willing to support him?

>>Sydney Hay:
I support the Iraqi people. They've freely elected the government. Now they have to stand up a military with our help capable of protecting that government. It's not government I would have chosen. It's the government they chose. We can't abandon them now. We can't do that we need to leave at least a semblance of a democratic nation there in the Middle East. That'll be a huge victory for liberty throughout the world!

>>Sam Coppersmith:
It's a -- I think it's a myth. And I'll just quote Ronald Reagan at you. Reagan realized he pulled the American marines out of Beirut. Five years later, the sheriff agreement was signed. We don't have to be there it's a mistake.

>>Sydney Hay:
It's a different world today.

>>Sam Coppersmith:
We're done.

>>Sydney Hay:
That's it?

>>Sam Coppersmith:
That's it.

>>Steve Goldstein:
You probably know that one of the reasons it's so hot in the valley is because there's so much concrete. The pavement absorbs the heat during the day, so when night comes, it doesn't cool down as much as it would without pavement. ASU's school of sustainability is coming up with ways to reduce the urban heat effect. Larry Lemmons spoke with ASU's Jay Golden in our sustainability segment.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Dr. Golden, a friend of mine told me that growing up in Arizona really wasn't too bad. He was in a rural area and even though it was hot during the day in the summer, at night it really didn't cool off. The cool, desert nights were cooler back then because there was no urban heat effect. What is that?

>>Jay Golden: being here for over 20 years, I've experienced myself too. What happens is that as we down grow in this valley, we transition from native vegetation whether that's our barrel cactus or trees and we replace it with engineered materials for buildings and pavements, etc. And what happens is we retain that heat, so the sun provides us this warming effect. The materials themselves retain overnight. Instead of quickly releasing back into the atmosphere at night we find it stays warmer. In fact, not only through the night but into the early morning hours up to 14 degrees Fahrenheit difference between central phoenix and the adjacent rural area like casa grande national monument.

>>Larry Lemmons:
I was surprised when I moved out here. I walked outside at 10:00 at night and it was still 100 degrees outside. Oh, this is what it's like. What are you guys doing, then, at school of sustainability -- what sort of research are you doing to try to alleviate that?

>>Jay Golden:
Working on a number of fronts. First, we want to understand what are the problems associated with it? And then from there we can identify what are some mitigation strategies that the general public and communities can use? Those are basically right now three main initial programs. One is urban forestry or planting of trees. Though we have to be very careful how go that, because sometimes the pavements have a tendency to make the smallest of trees small growth and they don't last very long. Then there are the payments that are more porous. Then there are cooler roof materials. The coatings that could be used on roofs that activate by temperature, kind of like your glasses when you go outside. The u.v. hits it and changes color when you go outside. Then change colors. We're looking at a variety of opportunities to have our materials adapt to the environment more sustainable.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Pervious pavement too, can you tell us about that.

>>Jay Golden:
That could be a concrete pavement or asphalt pavement. We lose most of the sand. It has 20\% to 30\% voids in the material itself it allows water and moisture to go in. Just as importantly cools off rapidly at night. At some points also during the day. Many communities around the country from urban heat are requiring planting millions of trees or canopy coverage of the trees. You can't do that unless you think of the whole system. This pervious pavement is one such example.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Ecologically speaking, how does it affect the area? Would you need more water for the trees?

>>Jay Golden:
Certainly. You have to look at the water balance. Thermal electric power, coal requires a lot of water. We use more and more electricity with the air-conditioning. The other part of this we have to think of too, what happens, god forbid, when the electricity stops? Whether we overload the system or have the tree branch fall down on a 500 kV line somewhere in the state of Washington which happens. By adapting to the urban heat on we're protecting our community in the most vulnerable part of the community.

>>Larry Lemmons:
We only have 30 seconds. Can you tell us what is coming up in November you were telling me about?

>>Jay Golden:
The Arizona state university and the global institute of sustainability is hosting with the environmental protection agency, U.S. centers for disease control and the national weather service a three-day workshop on climate change and urban heat element and what could be done for it. We'll have mayors from cities around the country involved with that as well as the general public and the media itself and we look forward to being able to communicate all the different types of mitigation strategies and policies working around the country.

>>Larry Lemmons:
November what now?

>>Jay Golden:
14 through the 16.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Dr. Golden, thank you for joining us.

>>Jay Golden:
Thank you.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Continuing our series on teaching English in Arizona, we look back to the original case that began the English learners issue in our state. Those stories Tuesday on "Horizon."

>>Steve Goldstein:
Wednesday, we'll continue our series on English language learners with a look at how the drama played out in the legislature. Thursday, we'll examine our model being suggested for e.l.l. funding. Friday, join us for the journalists' roundtable.

>>Steve Goldstein:
That's "Horizon" for a Monday night. I'm Steve Goldstein. Thank you very much for watching. Hope to see you back here tomorrow night.

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