Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

August 1, 2007


Host: Christina Estes

English Language Learner Models


Guests:
  • Bob Edwards - Mayor, Payson
  • Sam Streichman - Town attorney, Payson
Category: Education

View Transcript

>>Christina Estes:
Tonight on Horizon, find out what the Town of Payson is doing to stop businesses from hiring illegal immigrants. And a state task force wants your opinion on new plans for educating English Language Learners. Those stories are next on Horizon.

>>Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by contributions from the Friends of Eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Christina Estes:
Good evening, I'm Christina Estes. Welcome to Horizon. In 2006 the Hazelton, Pennsylvania Town Council passed an ordinance that penalized companies for hiring illegal immigrants. Late last week a federal judge called that ordinance unconstitutional. Similar ordinances have been approved by cities and towns all across the country, including one that went into effect on July 1 in Payson. I'll talk with the town's mayor and attorney in a moment. First David Majure has this report from Payson.

>>David Majure:
For many valley residents looking for a quick escape from the blistering summer heat, Payson, Arizona offers a refreshing retreat to a bit of calm, cool paradise. But according to town mayor Bob Edwards, Payson has a problem.

>>Bob Edwards:
We have a pretty large problem, as does all of Arizona, probably. But yes, there was a couple of developments that came in here that brought in a lot of apparently illegal workers a few years back. As a result we have a problem.

>>David Majure:
He says companies that hire illegal workers are making life difficult for employers who abide by the law.

>>Butch Klein:
Some of the businesses up here are filling their places up with folks who are willing to work for less than good wages because they are here illegally.


>>David Majure:
Butch Klein and Dennis Schwebs are owners of a Payson moving company. They say they simply can't compete with companies that hire undocumented workers.

>>Butch Klein:
That's all it is. We want to try to keep it where I have the same ability to bid a job as another fellow does. It happens not only through my business but also with the construction business. Up here it's huge, with the landscaping business it's huge. The fast food industry is totally, you know, in chaos over it. So, you know, it's hard for one fellow to bid one way when another fellow is getting so much of a break, because a lot of what we pay out are wages.

>>David Majure:
Complaints from local businesses caused the Payson town council to draft a new ordinance. It seeks to level the playing field by requiring employers to sign an affidavit, swearing to the best of their knowledge their employees are legal residents. A company that violates that promise will lose its business license. To get their license back it must fire the undocumented workers and pay a $500 fine.

>>Bob Edwards:
We catch them again, they will then pay a double fine. If we catch them again, then they're out of business in Payson. They'll have to go somewhere else to do business.

>>David Majure:
Simply put, three strikes and you're out.

>>David Majure:
Gloria Anaya calls the ordinance an injustice. She and her family own a Mexican restaurant in Payson. They've worked hard to build the business and she doesn't want to lose it. As far as she knows all her employees are in the country legally, but she says she's no immigration expert.

>>Gloria Anaya:
We aren't capable to see when people come ask us for work whether their documents are legal or not. We aren't going to distinguish. We don't know, so we give them jobs.

>>David Majure:
One thing Payson wants to avoid are the lawsuits facing other cities and towns across the U.S. that have passed similar ordinances. Then there are the unintended consequences of potential labor shortages and other economic and social problems that may or may not occur.

>>Bob Edwards:
Certainly there's going to be things that we haven't thought of, that's part of the game. But we have a council, I think, that's very real. I think it's one of the best councils we've had here. We'll bring it back if we've got problems and we'll deal with it. We aren't going to cause a cancer to happen in the town because of this. But we'll deal with it.

>>David Majure:
For one month now, Payson businesses have been dealing with the ordinance that went into effect July 1.

>>Butch Klein:
It's a terrible position to be put in. But businesses are also the ones that brought this problem on. And when you want to try and spike it a little bit and go for cheaper wages and you say, okay, I don't care about where these ten guys came from, you're part of the problem. You brought it on. So now you saddled that bronco. Let's see if you can ride it.

>>Christina Estes:
Joining me to talk more about the ordinance is Payson mayor Bob Edwards and town attorney Sam Streichman. Thank you both for being here. The ordinance went into effect July 1. So Sam, let's start with you. What have you done in terms of business outreach? The ordinance goes into effect July 1. What do you tell businesses and what do they do?

>>Sam Streichman:
We, through our clerk's office, advised by letter, by mail, actually, all of our businesses that this ordinance was becoming effective, and that upon the renewal of a business license, they were going to be required to file with us this affidavit that the licensing provisions call for.

>>Christina Estes:
Your town clerk tells us so far you've actually received 44 affidavits. Mayor Edwards, does that surprise you? This is a renewal process. So unless my business is up for renewal I don't need to fill out the affidavit. But you're getting folks who are.

>>Bob Edwards:
Actually they have to renew their license every year. So once a year has gone by we will have all of them sign it. They either have to sign an affidavit or they don't have a business license.

>>Christina Estes:
But there are some who do not yet have to sign that affidavit who are doing it. Does that surprise you?

>>Bob Edwards:
No, not really. I think when we sent the letter out I think some of them thought they had to do it right then. But it's not surprising. I suspected some of them to come back in.

>>Christina Estes:
What are you hearing and seeing among the town, business people and also employees since this ordinance took effect?

>>Bob Edwards:
When we passed it in April, immediately you started seeing some businesses kind of shuffling some staff in some cases. Rumors are that there have been some people who are no longer working that were working. Businesses are making those kinds of adjustments. And we had a period of time, from April to July, to give them that ability to do that. I think the businesses are conforming. I think they're coming around and I think they will. I think it will ultimately be something that will be effective.

>>Christina Estes:
Recently in the news, the town of Hazelton, Pennsylvania lost a big fight. A federal judge said, hey, what you're trying to do is unconstitutional. In a nutshell, the federal court said immigration is a federal issue, it's not a local issue. Therefore your ordinance is unconstitutional. Sam, talk about the difference with Payson versus Hazelton for folks who aren't familiar with Hazelton. Do you think you can beat a legal challenge?

>>Sam Streichman:
Yes, we do. But part of the reason for that is the whole Hazelton scenario played out while we were developing this ordinance. So we think we learned some lessons from that. Because before it was totally struck down, the courts enjoined the operation of the Hazelton ordinance so that Hazelton could never put it in effect. I don't believe it ever has been in effect. There are differences. And what we learned and how we learned to operate under the federal law, I think, helped us out. I think the proof of that pudding is that to my knowledge we've had very little complaint about our ordinance since it went into effect. And it's been in effect for about 30 days now.

>>Bob Edwards:
We had a threat from a fairly sizeable organization early on that if we put it in they'd take us to court. They haven't. Our law basically is pretty simple. It just says in order to do business in the town of Payson you have to hire people who are legally here in America. And it's not really much more difficult than that. And that's really -- we're trying to just make a level-playing ground for all the workers so that if somebody is bidding on a contract here and one's bidding on a contract over there, they're all paying taxes, they all have legal workers, and it's all fair.

>>Christina Estes:
And Sam, how is Payson's ordinance then different from Hazelton? They have more elements.

>>Sam Streichman:
They have more elements. And it's obvious that Hazelton's ordinance is directed at illegal immigration. It's called the Illegal Immigration Relief Act Ordinance. Ours is just amendments to our business license provisions. There are findings that are made in the Hazelton ordinance about the problems caused by illegal immigration. We don't presume to make those findings. We believe that the court is correct in the Hazelton case. That that's the province of the federal government or the state government but not us.

>>Bob Edwards:
We're not really trying to deal with illegal immigration. We're just leveling the playing ground. If you're going to do business in the town of Payson you simply have to have legal employees.

>>Christina Estes:
Doesn't the Hazelton ordinance, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't it result in the loss of a business license, which is what the Payson ordinance would do?

>>Sam Streichman:
It does, but in a different sort of a way. In Hazelton, if it went into effect, the businesses required to come through the city and to let the city know who its employees are. Then the city goes about testing those employees to determine if they're legal or illegal. And then the city makes a series of determinations whether a business license gets issued or gets revoked. We don't do that. We ask the business owner simply to come in and provide us with an affidavit that based on the information that owner has and to the best of that person's knowledge, the folks that they are employing are legal citizens, or people that are legally able to be employed.

>>Christina Estes:
So there's no follow-up. If I just say, here you go, here's my affidavit, yeah, everyone I have is legal. No one is checking?

>>Bob Edwards:
Well, yes, we do require licenses on cars and if somebody doesn't have a license we're going to obviously do some digging. If you sign an affidavit, if you lie on an affidavit that's a felony. Most business people are not going to risk that. But we are not requiring that they become I.N.S. agents and verify the data they have. If somebody turns in papers that are false, we aren't requiring the business person to somehow know that. One lady that was on in the earlier part of the show indicated that that was a fear. Well, that's not really a problem. Again, as Sam says, if they do it to the best of their knowledge that's all we're asking.

>>Christina Estes:
So tell me, please, what your experience has been since the ordinance took effect. Have you actually received complaints from anyone reporting a business may have undocumented workers?

>>Bob Edwards:
I don't believe we've had complaints, formal complaints, but we've seen a lot of activity on the part of business to change the way they're doing business. I think you're seeing them change some of their employees and that kind of thing.

>>Sam Streichman:
I think we had one that was a general complaint that wasn't specific to the effect that a certain business employed people who appeared to speak Spanish. That is not the sort of a complaint that we would have acted on if the state hadn't got into the field, which is another part of this problem. Because we would have required more specifics. And we wouldn't have been profiling. But in any event, now we wouldn't do anything in that situation because the state has adopted its own statute and has created a new procedure which results in Superior Court orders two businesses that they have to do certain things and they have to stop hiring persons who are not qualified to work.

>>Christina Estes:
Before we get into the state's Employer Sanctions Law, the Payson ordinance, as it stands right now, how does the enforcement angle work?

>>Sam Streichman:
We would have revoked a business license had we determined that a business employed a person who is not a United States citizen or otherwise lawfully in the United States.

>>Christina Estes:
That would be on the third offense?

>>Bob Edwards:
Yeah. Three strikes and out.

>>Christina Estes:
And then explain how the state Employer Sanctions Bill the governor recently signed, how does that effect the Payson ordinance?

>>Bob Edwards:
They basically pre-empted us on enforcement. We've sent them communications, asking that they rethink that, so that they let us deal with it. Because I think our method of dealing with it will be far more effective than theirs. Going to court is an involved process. Just pulling a license is not. And in our case, we'd pull a license and if they want to fight it they'd have to take us to court, which is the other way around. The state has to take them to court in order to pull a license. I think that's really going to not be as effective.

>>Christina Estes:
And how about you, Sam? Your opinion in terms of how the state Employer Sanctions Bill affects the Payson ordinance.

>>Sam Streichman:
I think there's a legal maxim called pre-emption. And I think what the state has done is to jump into the field with both feet. They've taken over the field in such a way that it is now inappropriate for a local community to try to do the same sort of thing that the state does. So for the time being, while the state has occupied the area, the way that a business would be put out of business would be under the state statute.

>>Christina Estes:
So does the Payson ordinance, I mean, is it ineffective as it is now, since we've got the state employer sanctions?

>>Bob Edwards:
No. I don't, we're seeing its effect already. The fact that somebody has to sign an affidavit, again, you're not going to sign an affidavit as a business person if you're lying on it. If you do, you're in serious trouble. So that piece stays in play. And so that's going to be very effective.



>>Christina Estes:
And you say you've noticed or at least heard from some folks that there have been some changes. Have you had any businesses refuse to sign the affidavit?

>>Bob Edwards:
Not to my knowledge yet.

>>Sam Streichman:
Not to my knowledge.

>>Christina Estes:
And how does somebody go about issuing a complaint or making a complaint?

>>Bob Edwards:
They basically just call the town hall.

>>Christina Estes:
And you guys will do what from that point? If I call and say, hey, I think this business has some undocumented workers.

>>Bob Edwards:
If we feel that it's a serious problem, that it's a real complaint, we now as I understand it, Sam, have to turn it over to the county attorney. Whereas before we would go out and investigate and if they truly did have employees without proper paperwork we would have pulled their license and fined them until they cured the problem.

>>Christina Estes:
And mayor, you said you sent a letter to the state saying, hey, our way is better than your way.

>>Bob Edwards:
Pretty much.

>> Christina Estes:
What sort of response have you received? Or what sort of response do you expect?


>>Bob Edwards:
We've received none. I hope they will listen to it. They are going into a special session to talk about it. I would think since we're as far as I know the only town in the state that's done this, I would think they would listen to us at least, take our view at least into account. So I'm thinking we'll get some results.

>> Christina Estes:
Any plans, Sam, to pop into the special session on the Employer Sanctions Bill, if it happens?

>>Sam Streichman:
I'll leave that to Bob. And I would assume there are.

>> Christina Estes:
Okay. Thank you both very much. Payson Mayor Bob Edwards, Town Attorney Sam Streichman. Thank you for joining us.

This week the state's English Language Learners task force is taking public comment on its draft models for educating English Language Learners. Yesterday Cary Pfeffer spoke with task force chairman Alan Maguire.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Alan, your mission, apparently you've accepted it, is to adopt research-based models of structured English immersion. In English, what does that mean?

>>Alan Maguire:
Well, first a little bit of background. The task force voted on June 14 to submit draft models to the joint legislative budget committee for their review. We're required by the law to do that at least 30 days prior to adoption. So these models are not final in any way, they have not been formally adopted, they're just drafts.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
In fact, tomorrow afternoon you have another hearing on this. But the idea is that you start the process and it ultimately ends up in a classroom.



>>Alan Maguire:
That's exactly right, yes. Last year, 2006, the legislature passed a very comprehensive bill, House Bill 2064 chapter 4. That laid out our process for us. It also laid out a number of restrictions and directions to the task force that said, these are things that have to be in your models. For example, the models are required to have four hours of English Language Development for every English Language Learner per day in the first year. They're required to have instruction in English. They're required to have a goal of having all the students learn English in a period not longer than one year, a very aggressive goal. So the legislature laid out a bunch of guidelines for us that said, your model has to look kind of like this.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Not a lot of wiggle room there.

>>Alan Maguire:
That's right. They did a lot of our work for us. But we also spent a long time talking to practitioners, talking to experts. We've had almost two dozen meetings now to listen and learn about this.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Even to take a step back, one step back, the idea is, this is to be a road map to get kids who aren't able to speak English to be able to speak English in as quick a period of time as possible.

>>Alan Maguire:
Exactly right. In order for children under the law to move into a regular, what we call a mainstream classroom, they have to be proficient in English. That proficiency is tested using a standard test. That test reflects English language proficiency standards for these students. So the goal of this process is to make them proficient so they can pass the test and move into the regular classroom.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
And really become mainstreamed as they say.

>>Alan Maguire:
And to be successful when they get there. That's the real key.


>>Cary Pfeffer:
Exactly. Based on that time schedule you outlined, when would the stuff you talked about actually end up in classrooms?

>>Alan Maguire:
Our responsibility is to produce the models. We have a proposal out there. We're going to take more testimony on that, probably act on it probably I'm thinking within the next month. Then we'll have to talk about implementation and training. There'll be requirements for training. This will be very new for teachers. One of the important ingredients in this process is something called the discrete skills inventory, which is really the recipe for a classroom teacher to help a kid become proficient on the standards. So we'll be getting into that probably in the next month or so. My expectation is that there'll be some progress made this year and more progress made next year.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
With the idea that it will probably be in the classrooms next year, for the school year next year?

>> Alan Maguire:
We haven't taken a position on that. I think you'll see some of it happen this year and more next year as the training rolls out and the classroom teachers become more and more skilled at this process.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
You touched on it a little bit. Let's talk a little bit about the process in layman's terms. What would it look like in a classroom?

>> Alan Maguire:
What will happen in the classroom is, they'll have four hours of English Language Development. By that we mean things like grammar and sentence structures and paragraph structures.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Only working on language skills during that four-hour period.

>>Alan Maguire:
Exactly. Very traditional, classic language school. Much like you would get if you took a class in French in high school. You'd learn past, present, future tense and all those things. So they'll have intense English language training, which is key because most kids are not getting four hours a day. They'll have more time on task. That will facilitate their progression. I think you'll see more of these kids spending more time on this topic both at the elementary level and high school level. The other thing that's very different about this approach is, as required by law, they are grouped by proficiency. So beginning learners will be together, more advanced learners will be together. That will also help them make more rapid progress.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
And when you're in this kind of a situation, obviously the focus becomes how many students are there in a class. And talk a little bit about what the road map looks like as far as that's concerned.

>>Alan Maguire:
Right. The law is clear that groupings of children in classrooms shall be based upon proficiency. So I think it's clear what will happen is we'll have narrower bands. Not all English Language Learners will be together. You'll have beginners together and more advanced together.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
But I mean, in classes of 20?

>>Alan Maguire:
We set some targets. The task force adopted on a preliminary basis some targets for beginning what we call pre-emergent and emergent students, a target of 20 children per classroom, maximum of 23. For more advanced E.L.L. students, what we call basic and intermediate students, it would be 25 as the target and 28 as the maximum.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Okay. Now, we have a pride in this state of having some local control on these kinds of decisions as well. Will local school districts have some flexibility in this?

>>Alan Maguire:
They'll have some. Again, the law was very prescriptive. But they will be able to ensure that the curriculum they use is consistent with the discrete skills inventory and the standards. So that will be important. And there's one thing that's important to understand about the sense of uniformity. One of the things that we find in the student population, or what we had extensive testimony on this, is that this is a very mobile population.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Right.

>>Alan Maguire:
The more uniform the curriculum is between districts and between schools, the easier it is for those students to move from one to another without losing progress. So we'll compensate for that mobility issue.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Again, the teacher process. The question that comes up, how specialized is the training, what's the amount of teacher training?

>>Alan Maguire:
Training will be essential to this program. There's really three components of the training. The first is general training. That will be for teachers, administrators, superintendents. How does this model work overall? What's the big picture kind of training. Then more importantly there will be specific training for teachers on the discrete skills inventory. What's the content, what are we teaching in the classroom. Then separate training on how do I do that? What techniques or methods do I use to convey that information in the discrete skills inventory. So extensive training probably lasting over a course of a year.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Part of that timeline ends up being factored in because the teachers need to be prepared.

>>Alan Maguire:
That's right.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Also when this topic comes up, the question is what does it cost? Not that you'll have a perfect answer there. But address that as much as you can.

>>Alan Maguire:
Fortunately the task force doesn't have to figure that answer out. We only have to figure out the process for figuring out the answer. The next thing the task force has to do on its list of responsibilities after it adopts models is to develop a budget form. That will be used by schools to figure incremental costs associated with teaching English Language Learners and subjecting out certain funding sources to come up with a net incremental cost. That is then funded from a special fund called the structured English Immersion Fund which would receive money from the legislature for that purpose.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
So that's part of the process.

>>Alan Maguire:
We won't know what all this costs until we actually apply them to the districts. It will look very different in different districts.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Exactly. Depending upon where they are geographically.

>>Alan Maguire:
And what percentage are English Language Learners. Do they have a high percentage or a low percentage, are they a K-8 school or K-5 school or high school? It will all be different.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
And again, tomorrow afternoon, you're looking for more public comments, right?

>>Alan Maguire:
At 1:30 at the state capitol.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Very good. You've got a big job. You are the English Language Learners task force chairman, Alan Maguire. Thanks for being here.

>>Alan Maguire:
Thank you very much.

>>Christina Estes:
And if you would like to comment on the draft models you'll have an opportunity tomorrow afternoon at the state capitol. The English Language Learners task force is holding a public hearing in house hearing room 3. That meeting starts at 1:30.

>>Announcer:
Arizona State University law professor Paul Bender sits down with Jose Cardenas on the next Horizon to look back at the recently completed U.S. Supreme Court session. We'll look at key rulings from the Justices. Who are the swing votes? And whether the court is moving to the right. That's Thursday at 7:00 on Horizon.

>>Christina Estes:
I'm Christina Estes. Have a great night.

Payson Immigration Ordinance


Guests:
  • Bob Edwards - Mayor, Payson
  • Sam Streichman - Town attorney, Payson
Category: Immigration

View Transcript

>>Christina Estes:
Tonight on Horizon, find out what the Town of Payson is doing to stop businesses from hiring illegal immigrants. And a state task force wants your opinion on new plans for educating English Language Learners. Those stories are next on Horizon.

>>Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by contributions from the Friends of Eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Christina Estes:
Good evening, I'm Christina Estes. Welcome to Horizon. In 2006 the Hazelton, Pennsylvania Town Council passed an ordinance that penalized companies for hiring illegal immigrants. Late last week a federal judge called that ordinance unconstitutional. Similar ordinances have been approved by cities and towns all across the country, including one that went into effect on July 1 in Payson. I'll talk with the town's mayor and attorney in a moment. First David Majure has this report from Payson.

>>David Majure:
For many valley residents looking for a quick escape from the blistering summer heat, Payson, Arizona offers a refreshing retreat to a bit of calm, cool paradise. But according to town mayor Bob Edwards, Payson has a problem.

>>Bob Edwards:
We have a pretty large problem, as does all of Arizona, probably. But yes, there was a couple of developments that came in here that brought in a lot of apparently illegal workers a few years back. As a result we have a problem.

>>David Majure:
He says companies that hire illegal workers are making life difficult for employers who abide by the law.

>>Butch Klein:
Some of the businesses up here are filling their places up with folks who are willing to work for less than good wages because they are here illegally.


>>David Majure:
Butch Klein and Dennis Schwebs are owners of a Payson moving company. They say they simply can't compete with companies that hire undocumented workers.

>>Butch Klein:
That's all it is. We want to try to keep it where I have the same ability to bid a job as another fellow does. It happens not only through my business but also with the construction business. Up here it's huge, with the landscaping business it's huge. The fast food industry is totally, you know, in chaos over it. So, you know, it's hard for one fellow to bid one way when another fellow is getting so much of a break, because a lot of what we pay out are wages.

>>David Majure:
Complaints from local businesses caused the Payson town council to draft a new ordinance. It seeks to level the playing field by requiring employers to sign an affidavit, swearing to the best of their knowledge their employees are legal residents. A company that violates that promise will lose its business license. To get their license back it must fire the undocumented workers and pay a $500 fine.

>>Bob Edwards:
We catch them again, they will then pay a double fine. If we catch them again, then they're out of business in Payson. They'll have to go somewhere else to do business.

>>David Majure:
Simply put, three strikes and you're out.

>>David Majure:
Gloria Anaya calls the ordinance an injustice. She and her family own a Mexican restaurant in Payson. They've worked hard to build the business and she doesn't want to lose it. As far as she knows all her employees are in the country legally, but she says she's no immigration expert.

>>Gloria Anaya:
We aren't capable to see when people come ask us for work whether their documents are legal or not. We aren't going to distinguish. We don't know, so we give them jobs.

>>David Majure:
One thing Payson wants to avoid are the lawsuits facing other cities and towns across the U.S. that have passed similar ordinances. Then there are the unintended consequences of potential labor shortages and other economic and social problems that may or may not occur.

>>Bob Edwards:
Certainly there's going to be things that we haven't thought of, that's part of the game. But we have a council, I think, that's very real. I think it's one of the best councils we've had here. We'll bring it back if we've got problems and we'll deal with it. We aren't going to cause a cancer to happen in the town because of this. But we'll deal with it.

>>David Majure:
For one month now, Payson businesses have been dealing with the ordinance that went into effect July 1.

>>Butch Klein:
It's a terrible position to be put in. But businesses are also the ones that brought this problem on. And when you want to try and spike it a little bit and go for cheaper wages and you say, okay, I don't care about where these ten guys came from, you're part of the problem. You brought it on. So now you saddled that bronco. Let's see if you can ride it.

>>Christina Estes:
Joining me to talk more about the ordinance is Payson mayor Bob Edwards and town attorney Sam Streichman. Thank you both for being here. The ordinance went into effect July 1. So Sam, let's start with you. What have you done in terms of business outreach? The ordinance goes into effect July 1. What do you tell businesses and what do they do?

>>Sam Streichman:
We, through our clerk's office, advised by letter, by mail, actually, all of our businesses that this ordinance was becoming effective, and that upon the renewal of a business license, they were going to be required to file with us this affidavit that the licensing provisions call for.

>>Christina Estes:
Your town clerk tells us so far you've actually received 44 affidavits. Mayor Edwards, does that surprise you? This is a renewal process. So unless my business is up for renewal I don't need to fill out the affidavit. But you're getting folks who are.

>>Bob Edwards:
Actually they have to renew their license every year. So once a year has gone by we will have all of them sign it. They either have to sign an affidavit or they don't have a business license.

>>Christina Estes:
But there are some who do not yet have to sign that affidavit who are doing it. Does that surprise you?

>>Bob Edwards:
No, not really. I think when we sent the letter out I think some of them thought they had to do it right then. But it's not surprising. I suspected some of them to come back in.

>>Christina Estes:
What are you hearing and seeing among the town, business people and also employees since this ordinance took effect?

>>Bob Edwards:
When we passed it in April, immediately you started seeing some businesses kind of shuffling some staff in some cases. Rumors are that there have been some people who are no longer working that were working. Businesses are making those kinds of adjustments. And we had a period of time, from April to July, to give them that ability to do that. I think the businesses are conforming. I think they're coming around and I think they will. I think it will ultimately be something that will be effective.

>>Christina Estes:
Recently in the news, the town of Hazelton, Pennsylvania lost a big fight. A federal judge said, hey, what you're trying to do is unconstitutional. In a nutshell, the federal court said immigration is a federal issue, it's not a local issue. Therefore your ordinance is unconstitutional. Sam, talk about the difference with Payson versus Hazelton for folks who aren't familiar with Hazelton. Do you think you can beat a legal challenge?

>>Sam Streichman:
Yes, we do. But part of the reason for that is the whole Hazelton scenario played out while we were developing this ordinance. So we think we learned some lessons from that. Because before it was totally struck down, the courts enjoined the operation of the Hazelton ordinance so that Hazelton could never put it in effect. I don't believe it ever has been in effect. There are differences. And what we learned and how we learned to operate under the federal law, I think, helped us out. I think the proof of that pudding is that to my knowledge we've had very little complaint about our ordinance since it went into effect. And it's been in effect for about 30 days now.

>>Bob Edwards:
We had a threat from a fairly sizeable organization early on that if we put it in they'd take us to court. They haven't. Our law basically is pretty simple. It just says in order to do business in the town of Payson you have to hire people who are legally here in America. And it's not really much more difficult than that. And that's really -- we're trying to just make a level-playing ground for all the workers so that if somebody is bidding on a contract here and one's bidding on a contract over there, they're all paying taxes, they all have legal workers, and it's all fair.

>>Christina Estes:
And Sam, how is Payson's ordinance then different from Hazelton? They have more elements.

>>Sam Streichman:
They have more elements. And it's obvious that Hazelton's ordinance is directed at illegal immigration. It's called the Illegal Immigration Relief Act Ordinance. Ours is just amendments to our business license provisions. There are findings that are made in the Hazelton ordinance about the problems caused by illegal immigration. We don't presume to make those findings. We believe that the court is correct in the Hazelton case. That that's the province of the federal government or the state government but not us.

>>Bob Edwards:
We're not really trying to deal with illegal immigration. We're just leveling the playing ground. If you're going to do business in the town of Payson you simply have to have legal employees.

>>Christina Estes:
Doesn't the Hazelton ordinance, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't it result in the loss of a business license, which is what the Payson ordinance would do?

>>Sam Streichman:
It does, but in a different sort of a way. In Hazelton, if it went into effect, the businesses required to come through the city and to let the city know who its employees are. Then the city goes about testing those employees to determine if they're legal or illegal. And then the city makes a series of determinations whether a business license gets issued or gets revoked. We don't do that. We ask the business owner simply to come in and provide us with an affidavit that based on the information that owner has and to the best of that person's knowledge, the folks that they are employing are legal citizens, or people that are legally able to be employed.

>>Christina Estes:
So there's no follow-up. If I just say, here you go, here's my affidavit, yeah, everyone I have is legal. No one is checking?

>>Bob Edwards:
Well, yes, we do require licenses on cars and if somebody doesn't have a license we're going to obviously do some digging. If you sign an affidavit, if you lie on an affidavit that's a felony. Most business people are not going to risk that. But we are not requiring that they become I.N.S. agents and verify the data they have. If somebody turns in papers that are false, we aren't requiring the business person to somehow know that. One lady that was on in the earlier part of the show indicated that that was a fear. Well, that's not really a problem. Again, as Sam says, if they do it to the best of their knowledge that's all we're asking.

>>Christina Estes:
So tell me, please, what your experience has been since the ordinance took effect. Have you actually received complaints from anyone reporting a business may have undocumented workers?

>>Bob Edwards:
I don't believe we've had complaints, formal complaints, but we've seen a lot of activity on the part of business to change the way they're doing business. I think you're seeing them change some of their employees and that kind of thing.

>>Sam Streichman:
I think we had one that was a general complaint that wasn't specific to the effect that a certain business employed people who appeared to speak Spanish. That is not the sort of a complaint that we would have acted on if the state hadn't got into the field, which is another part of this problem. Because we would have required more specifics. And we wouldn't have been profiling. But in any event, now we wouldn't do anything in that situation because the state has adopted its own statute and has created a new procedure which results in Superior Court orders two businesses that they have to do certain things and they have to stop hiring persons who are not qualified to work.

>>Christina Estes:
Before we get into the state's Employer Sanctions Law, the Payson ordinance, as it stands right now, how does the enforcement angle work?

>>Sam Streichman:
We would have revoked a business license had we determined that a business employed a person who is not a United States citizen or otherwise lawfully in the United States.

>>Christina Estes:
That would be on the third offense?

>>Bob Edwards:
Yeah. Three strikes and out.

>>Christina Estes:
And then explain how the state Employer Sanctions Bill the governor recently signed, how does that effect the Payson ordinance?

>>Bob Edwards:
They basically pre-empted us on enforcement. We've sent them communications, asking that they rethink that, so that they let us deal with it. Because I think our method of dealing with it will be far more effective than theirs. Going to court is an involved process. Just pulling a license is not. And in our case, we'd pull a license and if they want to fight it they'd have to take us to court, which is the other way around. The state has to take them to court in order to pull a license. I think that's really going to not be as effective.

>>Christina Estes:
And how about you, Sam? Your opinion in terms of how the state Employer Sanctions Bill affects the Payson ordinance.

>>Sam Streichman:
I think there's a legal maxim called pre-emption. And I think what the state has done is to jump into the field with both feet. They've taken over the field in such a way that it is now inappropriate for a local community to try to do the same sort of thing that the state does. So for the time being, while the state has occupied the area, the way that a business would be put out of business would be under the state statute.

>>Christina Estes:
So does the Payson ordinance, I mean, is it ineffective as it is now, since we've got the state employer sanctions?

>>Bob Edwards:
No. I don't, we're seeing its effect already. The fact that somebody has to sign an affidavit, again, you're not going to sign an affidavit as a business person if you're lying on it. If you do, you're in serious trouble. So that piece stays in play. And so that's going to be very effective.



>>Christina Estes:
And you say you've noticed or at least heard from some folks that there have been some changes. Have you had any businesses refuse to sign the affidavit?

>>Bob Edwards:
Not to my knowledge yet.

>>Sam Streichman:
Not to my knowledge.

>>Christina Estes:
And how does somebody go about issuing a complaint or making a complaint?

>>Bob Edwards:
They basically just call the town hall.

>>Christina Estes:
And you guys will do what from that point? If I call and say, hey, I think this business has some undocumented workers.

>>Bob Edwards:
If we feel that it's a serious problem, that it's a real complaint, we now as I understand it, Sam, have to turn it over to the county attorney. Whereas before we would go out and investigate and if they truly did have employees without proper paperwork we would have pulled their license and fined them until they cured the problem.

>>Christina Estes:
And mayor, you said you sent a letter to the state saying, hey, our way is better than your way.

>>Bob Edwards:
Pretty much.

>> Christina Estes:
What sort of response have you received? Or what sort of response do you expect?


>>Bob Edwards:
We've received none. I hope they will listen to it. They are going into a special session to talk about it. I would think since we're as far as I know the only town in the state that's done this, I would think they would listen to us at least, take our view at least into account. So I'm thinking we'll get some results.

>> Christina Estes:
Any plans, Sam, to pop into the special session on the Employer Sanctions Bill, if it happens?

>>Sam Streichman:
I'll leave that to Bob. And I would assume there are.

>> Christina Estes:
Okay. Thank you both very much. Payson Mayor Bob Edwards, Town Attorney Sam Streichman. Thank you for joining us.

This week the state's English Language Learners task force is taking public comment on its draft models for educating English Language Learners. Yesterday Cary Pfeffer spoke with task force chairman Alan Maguire.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Alan, your mission, apparently you've accepted it, is to adopt research-based models of structured English immersion. In English, what does that mean?

>>Alan Maguire:
Well, first a little bit of background. The task force voted on June 14 to submit draft models to the joint legislative budget committee for their review. We're required by the law to do that at least 30 days prior to adoption. So these models are not final in any way, they have not been formally adopted, they're just drafts.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
In fact, tomorrow afternoon you have another hearing on this. But the idea is that you start the process and it ultimately ends up in a classroom.



>>Alan Maguire:
That's exactly right, yes. Last year, 2006, the legislature passed a very comprehensive bill, House Bill 2064 chapter 4. That laid out our process for us. It also laid out a number of restrictions and directions to the task force that said, these are things that have to be in your models. For example, the models are required to have four hours of English Language Development for every English Language Learner per day in the first year. They're required to have instruction in English. They're required to have a goal of having all the students learn English in a period not longer than one year, a very aggressive goal. So the legislature laid out a bunch of guidelines for us that said, your model has to look kind of like this.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Not a lot of wiggle room there.

>>Alan Maguire:
That's right. They did a lot of our work for us. But we also spent a long time talking to practitioners, talking to experts. We've had almost two dozen meetings now to listen and learn about this.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Even to take a step back, one step back, the idea is, this is to be a road map to get kids who aren't able to speak English to be able to speak English in as quick a period of time as possible.

>>Alan Maguire:
Exactly right. In order for children under the law to move into a regular, what we call a mainstream classroom, they have to be proficient in English. That proficiency is tested using a standard test. That test reflects English language proficiency standards for these students. So the goal of this process is to make them proficient so they can pass the test and move into the regular classroom.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
And really become mainstreamed as they say.

>>Alan Maguire:
And to be successful when they get there. That's the real key.


>>Cary Pfeffer:
Exactly. Based on that time schedule you outlined, when would the stuff you talked about actually end up in classrooms?

>>Alan Maguire:
Our responsibility is to produce the models. We have a proposal out there. We're going to take more testimony on that, probably act on it probably I'm thinking within the next month. Then we'll have to talk about implementation and training. There'll be requirements for training. This will be very new for teachers. One of the important ingredients in this process is something called the discrete skills inventory, which is really the recipe for a classroom teacher to help a kid become proficient on the standards. So we'll be getting into that probably in the next month or so. My expectation is that there'll be some progress made this year and more progress made next year.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
With the idea that it will probably be in the classrooms next year, for the school year next year?

>> Alan Maguire:
We haven't taken a position on that. I think you'll see some of it happen this year and more next year as the training rolls out and the classroom teachers become more and more skilled at this process.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
You touched on it a little bit. Let's talk a little bit about the process in layman's terms. What would it look like in a classroom?

>> Alan Maguire:
What will happen in the classroom is, they'll have four hours of English Language Development. By that we mean things like grammar and sentence structures and paragraph structures.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Only working on language skills during that four-hour period.

>>Alan Maguire:
Exactly. Very traditional, classic language school. Much like you would get if you took a class in French in high school. You'd learn past, present, future tense and all those things. So they'll have intense English language training, which is key because most kids are not getting four hours a day. They'll have more time on task. That will facilitate their progression. I think you'll see more of these kids spending more time on this topic both at the elementary level and high school level. The other thing that's very different about this approach is, as required by law, they are grouped by proficiency. So beginning learners will be together, more advanced learners will be together. That will also help them make more rapid progress.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
And when you're in this kind of a situation, obviously the focus becomes how many students are there in a class. And talk a little bit about what the road map looks like as far as that's concerned.

>>Alan Maguire:
Right. The law is clear that groupings of children in classrooms shall be based upon proficiency. So I think it's clear what will happen is we'll have narrower bands. Not all English Language Learners will be together. You'll have beginners together and more advanced together.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
But I mean, in classes of 20?

>>Alan Maguire:
We set some targets. The task force adopted on a preliminary basis some targets for beginning what we call pre-emergent and emergent students, a target of 20 children per classroom, maximum of 23. For more advanced E.L.L. students, what we call basic and intermediate students, it would be 25 as the target and 28 as the maximum.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Okay. Now, we have a pride in this state of having some local control on these kinds of decisions as well. Will local school districts have some flexibility in this?

>>Alan Maguire:
They'll have some. Again, the law was very prescriptive. But they will be able to ensure that the curriculum they use is consistent with the discrete skills inventory and the standards. So that will be important. And there's one thing that's important to understand about the sense of uniformity. One of the things that we find in the student population, or what we had extensive testimony on this, is that this is a very mobile population.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Right.

>>Alan Maguire:
The more uniform the curriculum is between districts and between schools, the easier it is for those students to move from one to another without losing progress. So we'll compensate for that mobility issue.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Again, the teacher process. The question that comes up, how specialized is the training, what's the amount of teacher training?

>>Alan Maguire:
Training will be essential to this program. There's really three components of the training. The first is general training. That will be for teachers, administrators, superintendents. How does this model work overall? What's the big picture kind of training. Then more importantly there will be specific training for teachers on the discrete skills inventory. What's the content, what are we teaching in the classroom. Then separate training on how do I do that? What techniques or methods do I use to convey that information in the discrete skills inventory. So extensive training probably lasting over a course of a year.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Part of that timeline ends up being factored in because the teachers need to be prepared.

>>Alan Maguire:
That's right.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Also when this topic comes up, the question is what does it cost? Not that you'll have a perfect answer there. But address that as much as you can.

>>Alan Maguire:
Fortunately the task force doesn't have to figure that answer out. We only have to figure out the process for figuring out the answer. The next thing the task force has to do on its list of responsibilities after it adopts models is to develop a budget form. That will be used by schools to figure incremental costs associated with teaching English Language Learners and subjecting out certain funding sources to come up with a net incremental cost. That is then funded from a special fund called the structured English Immersion Fund which would receive money from the legislature for that purpose.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
So that's part of the process.

>>Alan Maguire:
We won't know what all this costs until we actually apply them to the districts. It will look very different in different districts.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Exactly. Depending upon where they are geographically.

>>Alan Maguire:
And what percentage are English Language Learners. Do they have a high percentage or a low percentage, are they a K-8 school or K-5 school or high school? It will all be different.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
And again, tomorrow afternoon, you're looking for more public comments, right?

>>Alan Maguire:
At 1:30 at the state capitol.

>>Cary Pfeffer:
Very good. You've got a big job. You are the English Language Learners task force chairman, Alan Maguire. Thanks for being here.

>>Alan Maguire:
Thank you very much.

>>Christina Estes:
And if you would like to comment on the draft models you'll have an opportunity tomorrow afternoon at the state capitol. The English Language Learners task force is holding a public hearing in house hearing room 3. That meeting starts at 1:30.

>>Announcer:
Arizona State University law professor Paul Bender sits down with Jose Cardenas on the next Horizon to look back at the recently completed U.S. Supreme Court session. We'll look at key rulings from the Justices. Who are the swing votes? And whether the court is moving to the right. That's Thursday at 7:00 on Horizon.

>>Christina Estes:
I'm Christina Estes. Have a great night.

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