Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

April 12, 2007


Host: Larry Lemmons

Gun running


  • Gun running to Mexico has increased. ATF Phoenix Special Agent in charge William Newell will talk about the problem.
Guests:
  • Bill Gregory - Former astronaut
  • Mark Kelly - Astronaut
  • William Newell - Special agent in charge, Phoenix A.T.F.


View Transcript
Larry Lemmons:
Tonight on "Horizon," a valley company will be building flight controls for the spacecraft which will soon replace the space shuttle. We'll talk to two astronauts about it.
Gun running to Mexico is increasing. Find out what's happening.
And meet Ron Paul, a republican congressman running for president who's well liked by members of another political party. That's coming up next on "Horizon."

Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by contributions from the friends of eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Larry Lemmons:
Good evening and welcome to "Horizon." I'm Larry Lemmons. In the news tonight, federal inspectors found problems at the Arizona state veteran home a month before state investigators found them. Investigators from the Department of Veterans Affairs visited the nursing home January 22 through 29 and found that staff was not answering call lights quickly. Federal investigators also found that one patient, who has a history of being drunk, left the central phoenix facility and had to be brought back by fire officials. However, the federal inspectors did not find problems as severe as the state inspectors.

Larry Lemmons:
Flight controls and the mission computer for the next generation of spacecraft will be built here in the valley by Honeywell aerospace. The controls will go in the new Orion crew exploration vehicle. Earlier I spoke with former astronaut Bill Gregory and astronaut Mark Kelly about the project.

Larry Lemmons:
So, Mark, Orion is the next generation of spacecraft for NASA. How is Orion and its mission different from the space shuttle?

Mark Kelly:
Well, space shuttle's been serving us for over 20 years. It's a very capable vehicle, able to take a big payload into orbit and a lot of stuff back home, too, land on the runway. Orion is different in that it's a capsule launched on top of a rocket that's going to take us to the space station but really just a crew. And then, with a Lunar Lander later, is going to take us back to the surface of the moon and get us home and ultimately could be used as part of a system that will get us to mars and back.

Larry Lemmons:
Going to the space station, it's wonderful, and I think we have that partnership with Russia as well to try to build that up, but I know that people have been wanting to go back to the moon. It provides a lot of inspiration, I think, for people. It's good for NASA, too.

Mark Kelly:
It's exciting, challenging, and the challenge in doing something that's that difficult, sending people to the moon, living there for a long period of time, is going to produce some incredible technological advancements for our nation and the entire planet.

Larry Lemmons:
So, bill, is the shuttle due to be phased out by 2010? Is that correct?

Bill Gregory:
Approximately 2010. That's correct. And it serves us well, and we'll never see that kind of capability again, but one of the aspects of Orion is the fact that it's going to be much safer mostly because it's a simpler operation.

Larry Lemmons:
How is Honeywell involved in that? I mean, what part will Honeywell play in building the Orion?

Bill Gregory:
Well, we're very proud to have the lead roll on avionics, and so we'll be designing the cockpit, the displays, the interactive devices which of course are what the astronauts are going to pay attention to and use, and so we're very proud of having that role. That is very exciting for our engineers to be doing this.

Larry Lemmons:
How did Phoenix and Honeywell get involved in that through lock we'd he'd martin?

Bill Gregory:
Actually Mike Coats, now the director of the Johnson space center, was the vice president at Lockheed Martin at the time, and he and I are both former astronauts, and we worked together to forge a deal and present is to each of our companies and went forward at that point.

Larry Lemmons:
The navigation system and mission computer: how is that going to be different? Is that going to be a step up also from the technology that had been available previously?

Bill Gregory:
Actually it's kind of interesting. Normally, in the past, we've also thought of NASA as providing the cutting edge technology. This time in fact, we're taking proven technology that we use every day in commercial airliners, and we're taking it -- making it for space. So we're kind of doing it in reverse. We're taken proven technology and taking it to orbit rather than bringing something down from orbit. And the reason that NASA is thrilled about this idea is it removes a lot of risk when it comes to cost and to schedule, because a lot of research and development work has already been done, number one, and number two, because it's a proven entity, there's a lot less risk that the schedule will be delayed.

Larry Lemmons:
That's really where it's going, it seems to me, much more private involvement and that sort of thing. I guess, in a sense, getting taxpayer approval sometimes is very difficult. It's a way of reaching out.

Mark Kelly:
It is. The space program, to do something as -- you know -- forward looking as -- you know -- putting people back on the moon and going on to mars, it's an expensive endeavor, but in the big scheme of things, I think that -- you know -- every dollar that we invest in the space program when we do something challenging like this is probably $10 that our economy is going to get back sometime in the future.

Larry Lemmons:
How is this for NASA astronauts now? I mean, you do have some sort of goal in the future. There was some question whether or not the shuttle was going to be taking off again, but now here is another plan. How is that for NASA astronauts? And I think you were saying, too, that you're going to be needing more astronauts. Aren't there some empty slots?

Mark Kelly:
I flew recently for the second return to flight mission after Columbia, and now I'm scheduled again for another flight pretty soon, pretty soon afterwards, and we're trying to fly -- you know -- we have about 16 more space shuttle flights before the end of the program. At the same time, we're in the process of ramping up the space station crew from three to six people, so we're going to be pretty busy in the astronaut office and quickly following the retirement. Shuttle we'll be flying Orion and the Aries spacecraft, so we do have a need for astronauts. I encourage anybody out there that's interested in math and science to follow that route if they're interested in a career as an astronaut.

Larry Lemmons:
I notice, bill, that the design of the Orion looks an awful lot like the old Apollo. We're I like, going back into that model again.

Bill Gregory:
We call it Apollo on steroids because it is a little bit bigger. As far as to the station, it will take six people, to the moon four people. When it goes to the moon, all four people will go to the surface. The part of orbiting the moon, what used to be called the command module that will be unmanned. Back in Apollo, we kept one person onboard and they tended to it, but with Orion, it will be unmanned, and the lunar surface module will be where all four astronauts go down to the surface. That's a unique philosophy.

Larry Lemmons:
I remember in the old days, the guy who stayed up there in the module --

Bill Gregory:
Oh, yeah. Poor Mike.

Larry Lemmons:
-- That was kind of horrible to be so close and not be able to touch that.

Bill Gregory:
Right. And we appreciate the fact that NASA's so confident in our avionics that they're willing to leave that untended vehicle knowing full well that, when they come back up on the ascent stage, it will be waiting for them

Mark Kelly:
Sure we want to do that?

Bill Gregory:
Yes.

Larry Lemons:
How close are we to completing the space station to such a degree where it is going to be a really viable launching site for that kind of thing?

Mark Kelly:
I take up the last big laboratory to the space station next April. I'll be on that mission that brings that up, and that's the last big habitable volume, and then it's considered pretty much a fully operational space station. We're going to use it for years and use it to test out the Orion spacecraft and actually use it to service the space station in the beginning of the Orion program before we're ready to go on to the moon.

Larry Lemmons:
Mark Kelly, bill Gregory, thanks so much for joining us today.

Mark Kelly:
You're welcome.

Bill Gregory:
You're welcome.

Larry Lemmons:
Good luck.

Bill Gregory:
Thanks.

Mark Kelly:
Thanks

Larry Lemmons:
The bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms reports more guns are flowing from north to south, ending up in the hands of Mexican criminal syndicates. I'll talk to the special agent in charge of the Phoenix bureau of the A.T.F. about gun running to Mexico, but first Mike Sauceda introduces us to the subject.

Mike Sauceda:
Tom Magnan, a special agent with the bureau of alcohol, tock back co, and firearms, shows us where some of the seized weapons are kept.

Tom Magnan:
There's an iron river of guns that flows from the United States into Mexico. These organizations want this type of fire power, not just limited to firearms. They need the ammunition obviously to load and work with the guns. They're violence has to be fueled, supported through threats and intimidation. How is that done? Through threats of violence and having the fire power to back it up. A.T.F. views this as a significant threat, and we're working very closely with our federal and state partners to obviously interdict any outbound loads of firearms in an attempt to try to stem and stop the firearms trafficking. You're running into assault rifles such as these ak-47's or Norenkos aks's. This is extremely, extremely lethal. This is --

Mike Sauceda:
The increased gun seizures including very lethal weapons. The rifles in the black cases were seized in one home. They contain military style M-16's. Magnon can't give us numbers.

Tom Magnan:
Unfortunately I can't go into specific numbers. We're prohibited from sharing that outside law enforcement. The numbers are significant by the loads enter interdicting here with A.T.F. resources. Also we're able to get a good gauge on how many guns are being traced on those that are recovered in crimes in Mexico. Of those guns that are being traced to origin countries such as the United States.

Mike Sauceda:
The weapons going to Mexico are purchased legally here by people who buy them and then sell them to smugglers. There are tough penalties for those straw man purchasers.

Tom Magnun:
There's significant federal penalties, not to exceed more than 10 years in prison, and a substantial fine. Obviously the U.S. attorney's office here and A.T.F. will fully prosecute those type of criminal investigations in pursuit of this crime of criminal investigations against any types of trafficking.

Mike Sauceda:
The guns are purchased at flea markets and gun shows. Like specialty guns for the crime bosses --

Tom Magnun:
Some of the custom guns that we're running into are these 38 supers. Somebody in the United States is going to pay up to $7000 per gun.

Mike Sauceda:
The weapons, more suited to a battlefield, are put to action not only in Mexico but also on this side of the border.

Tom Magnun:
The violence isn't just limited to what's happening in Mexico. These organizations are making their money where? Through their illegal activities in the border crossing and the crime they're committing over here also. Tucson sector, Yuma sector seeing significant increases in violence amongst their border patrol and amongst ice. Again, just because the guns are heading south doesn't mean that that crime is limited south of the border.

Mike Sauceda:
U.S. authorities are working with Mexican authorities to stop the iron river flowing into Mexico.

Tom Magnun:
We're working very closely with the Mexican authorities. There are several programs that A.T.F. is participating in with respect to any crime guns being used in Mexico. Aggressively try to trace those guns to show where these criminal organizations are obtaining their guns, and those guns are coming back to be traced was a source of supply as Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, various states around the country but more prevalent we're showing more of a significant -- significant resource as where they're obtaining the guns are the border states.

Larry Lemmons:
Here with more on gun running is William Newell, the special agent in charge of the phoenix A.T.F. thanks, bill, very much for coming down here.

William Newell:
Thank you, Larry.

Larry Lemmons:
Where are these guys getting the guns here in this country, and who's getting them?

William Newell:
From various sources. From licensed dealers, from flea markets, gun shows. They buy them in myriad ways, and in Mexico they buy them mainly in the border states like California, Arizona, Texas, and New Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
Clearly it's all legal, whoever is buying these guns.

William Newell:
Not necessarily. There's what we call straw purchases which is individuals who will go in to buy a gun from a licensed dealer or a licensed dealer doing business at a gun show for somebody else who can't legally buy a gun, so it's called a straw purchase.

Larry Lemmons:
Could you describe that a little more?

William Newell:
In many ways, it's people who are duped or who knowingly buy guns from people who are prohibited. People coming in from Mexico can't legally buy a gun or convicted felons. They'll find a relative or friend to go into a gun store, lie on the form and commit a federal felony so that that person who's waiting outside can get the gun and illegally traffic is down to Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
You were saying there could be somebody sitting on a bench which where out there who could approach them.

William Newell:
Right. There's all different kinds of schemes that are used. Mostly sensed dealers are doing business legally, but there are those dealers who aren't, and they're of concern to us because they're putting guns on the streets not only here but in other countries such as Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
There there's a par -- if there's a particular dealer with guns that you trace back to them, do you do something to them?

William Newell:
Sure. We try to get them into compliance. They may not know all the regulations. If we know they're doing something legally and knowingly and willfully violating the law, we're going to investigate they will criminally. All throughout the border, all throughout the United States, there's not only international firearms trafficking, there's domestic from New York and Boston, what have you. Of course, here on the border, it's primarily Mexico -- to Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
Do you have any numbers, any about what the volume is going across the border?

William Newell:
It's thousands of guns a year, and we don't really know exactly the numbers because many times we won't know when that gun was trafficked illegally unless it's recovered in a crime and then traced.

Larry Lemmons:
How do you know where they're coming across? I mean, are there more in Texas? Are there more in Texas, New Mexico? California? You said the border states.

William Newell:
Most of the firearms trace in Mexico and points south into South America, Latin America come from your border states. Texas is predominantly the largest because they have the largest population along the border. Then Arizona, California, New Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
These guns in the video looked pretty vicious this.

William Newell:
Right.

Larry Lemmons:
What does this mean to law enforcement?

William Newell:
Well, it's a serious concern to law enforcement in the United States as well as a serious concern to Mexico. The new administration, President Calderon, is taking it very seriously. We're working with that administration like we've never worked before. You see your violent drug cartels, human smuggling cartels who are arming themselves with a high-power, high-capacity weapon. Those are major concern to us.

Larry Lemmons:
Who is bringing them across? Coyotes and things like that? What sort of crimes are being committed with these weapons?

William Newell:
Places like Loredo, those are your high power weapons. Most of the coyotes won't take those weapons. They'll take smaller handguns because they're lighter. But your Mexican drug cartels are ones that will invest heavily in the high powered, high quality firearms.

Larry Lemmons:
And of course those firearms are worse a lot more across the border.

William Newell:
You buy a gun in the U.S. for $500; you can easily sell it for $4000, $5000 in Mexico. The higher quality gun, the higher price it will come in Mexico if you sell it.

Larry Lemmons:
Thanks very much, Bill Newell, for coming by and visits us today and talking about -- this is a scare rear problem than I think we realized.

William Newell:
Well, we're doing our best to address it and working with not only U.S. law enforcement and Mexican law enforcement. So we're doing our best.

Larry Lemmons:
Thanks, sir.

William Newell:
Thanks You.

Larry Lemmons:
Texas Republican Congressman Ron Paul may not be a household name, but he'd like to change that. Paul is running for president as a Republican although he has heavy Libertarian leanings. Mike Sauceda talked to Paul about his candidacy.

Mike Sauceda:
Congressman Paul, thank you for joining us on "Horizon" tonight.

Ron Paul:
Thank you. It's good to be here.

Mike Sauceda:
Tell us where you're at with the campaign. You've officially announced you have the exploratory committee?

Ron Paul:
Yes. I became an official candidate a few weeks ago, and things are going quite well.

Mike Sauceda:
And you're running as a republican.

Ron Paul:
As a Republican. And the Republican primary. And there's a pretty good contest going on.

Mike Sauceda:
It seems like a lot of libertarians like you.

Ron Paul:
Yes. I haven't identified with libertarianism. I was the libertarian candidate in 1988, and a lot of people identify with libertarianism, especially in Arizona. They don't shy away from the word, because it really means that we believe in liberty and the constitution as a pretty good defense of liberty. We bring strict constitutional lists together with libertarian leaning people who want to get the governments off their backs and out of their lives. There's a fertile field for that philosophy.

Mike Sauceda:
Is that your main point in this race that you'd like to have us follow the constitution and shrink government?

Ron Paul:
I think that's what I have the authority to do. You know, I could argue the case that maybe the government shouldn't be doing a, b, and c, but if it's in the constitution, I don't have a strong argument against it. I believe in very limited government, but that's what the constitution says. So whether it has to do with domestic welfare policy entitlement system, education, medical care or in for policy, there is very little room for the kind of things that we're doing worldwide as well as domestically. Of course my conviction is that we're moving toward a bankruptcy, because our appetite is too big for our government, and we don't have enough productivity in this country anymore to sustain it, so therefore we have to keep borrowing a lot of money. And to continue to run our programs, we have to borrow almost $3 billion a day from foreigners just to maintain our military operation as well as our entitlement system. I'm working on the assumption -- and many others agree -- that this can't last. It will come to an end.

Mike Sauceda:
What do you think we should do about Iraq? Should we get out? And if so, how and when?

Ron Paul:
I think we should get out and get out as soon as possible e which means weeks, not years, and save a lot of money, save hundreds of billions of dollars by avoiding a claim that the token victory that has been achieved has been achieved. Saddam Hussein is gone. We're not a very good arbitrator of peace in that country. As long as we're there, the more fighting I think is going to go on. So, yes, it's going to be messy even after we leave, but the mess is not because we're leaving. The mess is because we went. So if we went in, caused trouble, the sooner we get out, the better. And I think the American people are asking for that, demanding it. And yet so far even since the election there's no real signs that we're moving in that direction. Even the democrats, who have more or less received this mandate to do something about Iraq, have continued to support the war and the financing of the war. They're giving the president more than he even asked for to fight the war. And I think it's time we had a different kind of leadership that says it is not in our national interest. We're going to be stronger by coming home rather than staying there just draining our resources and losing so many personnel both by men and women being killed as well as so many being wounded.

Mike Sauceda:
In 1988, you ran on the libertarian ticket for president. Tell us about how that race differs from the race now. And I think a lot of it has to do with the web.

Ron Paul:
Yeah. That is true. First off, it's very difficult to compete in a third party, because of the laws biased against us. And Ross Perot to a degree overcame some of that because he had 10's if not hundreds of millions of dollars that he could pump into his campaign. And to get on ballots, it's very, very difficult. Today is very different. First off, I'm running as a republican, which puts me in a different position. You get more credible interviewing and get to be in the debates. But it is a lot different also because of what you suggest, and that is the use of the internet. The internet really didn't exist to any extent in 1988, and yet now it is just amazing how people are watching the internet. So you can gather up supporters and you can spread a message. You can raise money. And hopefully that will translate into votes and a successful campaign.

Mike Sauceda:
Is there a Ron Paul "You Tube" video out there yet?

Ron Paul:
There is. And there's lots of activity on the internet that I have trouble keeping up with, but it all seems to be very beneficial.

Mike Sauceda:
Are you in this race to win or maybe inject some ideas?

Ron Paul:
Oh, I think both. I think you can be in a race to win, because if you go in and you don't want to win or don't expect there's the slightest possibility, you run a different type of campaign, so I'm also very realistic and know what the odds are. You also want to have an impact. So if you don't have that victory which is a possibility, then you also might be able to persuade people to think about the important issues. And I think that's why an individual like myself is important enough to tell the truth to the American people, what's agency goal on, what they're facing up to, the kind of foreign policy we have, kind of monetary policy we have, talk about getting rid of the I.R.S. and the federal reserve system, talk about why it's not necessary for our national seniority to be involved in the united nations. All these issues -- you know -- resound pretty well with a lot of people in this country, more so than ever before. So I would say that there's reason to be pleasantly surprised about the reception that we're going to get.

Mike Sauceda:
Let's talk about an issue that's not only big here in Arizona but throughout the nation, and that is illegal immigration. What would you do about illegal immigration?

Ron Paul:
Well, there are several things. I have some legislation that I've introduced to try to make the point of what I think should be done. I do not support amnesty. I won't think we should ever reward illegal immigration but we shouldn't be opposed time congratulations. At the same time, I also would change or clarify I believe a misunderstanding that all you have to do is step across a border and have a baby and then become an automatic citizen and qualify for all the welfare benefits. So he would try to de-emphasize the incentives to come.

Mike Sauceda:
Do you think there's a conflict between your hard stance or immigration and the libertarian stance on some other issues like the drug war or prostitution where it seems to be more to legalize these activities?

Ron Paul:
I would say, with the libertarians, I'm not for certainly any national laws dealing with drug control, internet control, what people read on prostitution. That is, to me, a state issue dealing with the abortion issue also. I do disagree generally with libertarians, because a large number of them aren't right to life, and I believe life is precious. I don't believe I can protect your personal liberty if I don't protect all life. But I think it's a state issue, and it should be protected at the state level.

Mike Sauceda:
Congressman Paul, thank you for being on "Horizon." good luck with your presidential run.

Ron Paul:
Thank you. Very nice to be here.

Larry Lemmons:
Thanks very much for joining us on this Thursday edition of "Horizon." I'm Larry Lemmons. Join us tomorrow night for the "Journalists' Roundtable." we'll be talking about President Bush's visit to the border in Yuma and also Senator John McCain's presidential campaign. That's tomorrow night on "Horizon." Good night.

Orion Spacecraft


  • A new spacecraft called the Orion will soon replace the Space Shuttle. Some components for the new space vehicle will be built here in the Valley by Honeywell Aerospace. Astronaut Mark Kelly and Former Astronaut Bill Gregory talk about the new space vehicle and the parts being built for it in the Valley.
Guests:
  • Bill Gregory - Former astronaut
  • Mark Kelly - Astronaut
  • William Newell - Special agent in charge, Phoenix A.T.F.
Category: Science

View Transcript
Larry Lemmons:
Tonight on "Horizon," a valley company will be building flight controls for the spacecraft which will soon replace the space shuttle. We'll talk to two astronauts about it.
Gun running to Mexico is increasing. Find out what's happening.
And meet Ron Paul, a republican congressman running for president who's well liked by members of another political party. That's coming up next on "Horizon."

Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by contributions from the friends of eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Larry Lemmons:
Good evening and welcome to "Horizon." I'm Larry Lemmons. In the news tonight, federal inspectors found problems at the Arizona state veteran home a month before state investigators found them. Investigators from the Department of Veterans Affairs visited the nursing home January 22 through 29 and found that staff was not answering call lights quickly. Federal investigators also found that one patient, who has a history of being drunk, left the central phoenix facility and had to be brought back by fire officials. However, the federal inspectors did not find problems as severe as the state inspectors.

Larry Lemmons:
Flight controls and the mission computer for the next generation of spacecraft will be built here in the valley by Honeywell aerospace. The controls will go in the new Orion crew exploration vehicle. Earlier I spoke with former astronaut Bill Gregory and astronaut Mark Kelly about the project.

Larry Lemmons:
So, Mark, Orion is the next generation of spacecraft for NASA. How is Orion and its mission different from the space shuttle?

Mark Kelly:
Well, space shuttle's been serving us for over 20 years. It's a very capable vehicle, able to take a big payload into orbit and a lot of stuff back home, too, land on the runway. Orion is different in that it's a capsule launched on top of a rocket that's going to take us to the space station but really just a crew. And then, with a Lunar Lander later, is going to take us back to the surface of the moon and get us home and ultimately could be used as part of a system that will get us to mars and back.

Larry Lemmons:
Going to the space station, it's wonderful, and I think we have that partnership with Russia as well to try to build that up, but I know that people have been wanting to go back to the moon. It provides a lot of inspiration, I think, for people. It's good for NASA, too.

Mark Kelly:
It's exciting, challenging, and the challenge in doing something that's that difficult, sending people to the moon, living there for a long period of time, is going to produce some incredible technological advancements for our nation and the entire planet.

Larry Lemmons:
So, bill, is the shuttle due to be phased out by 2010? Is that correct?

Bill Gregory:
Approximately 2010. That's correct. And it serves us well, and we'll never see that kind of capability again, but one of the aspects of Orion is the fact that it's going to be much safer mostly because it's a simpler operation.

Larry Lemmons:
How is Honeywell involved in that? I mean, what part will Honeywell play in building the Orion?

Bill Gregory:
Well, we're very proud to have the lead roll on avionics, and so we'll be designing the cockpit, the displays, the interactive devices which of course are what the astronauts are going to pay attention to and use, and so we're very proud of having that role. That is very exciting for our engineers to be doing this.

Larry Lemmons:
How did Phoenix and Honeywell get involved in that through lock we'd he'd martin?

Bill Gregory:
Actually Mike Coats, now the director of the Johnson space center, was the vice president at Lockheed Martin at the time, and he and I are both former astronauts, and we worked together to forge a deal and present is to each of our companies and went forward at that point.

Larry Lemmons:
The navigation system and mission computer: how is that going to be different? Is that going to be a step up also from the technology that had been available previously?

Bill Gregory:
Actually it's kind of interesting. Normally, in the past, we've also thought of NASA as providing the cutting edge technology. This time in fact, we're taking proven technology that we use every day in commercial airliners, and we're taking it -- making it for space. So we're kind of doing it in reverse. We're taken proven technology and taking it to orbit rather than bringing something down from orbit. And the reason that NASA is thrilled about this idea is it removes a lot of risk when it comes to cost and to schedule, because a lot of research and development work has already been done, number one, and number two, because it's a proven entity, there's a lot less risk that the schedule will be delayed.

Larry Lemmons:
That's really where it's going, it seems to me, much more private involvement and that sort of thing. I guess, in a sense, getting taxpayer approval sometimes is very difficult. It's a way of reaching out.

Mark Kelly:
It is. The space program, to do something as -- you know -- forward looking as -- you know -- putting people back on the moon and going on to mars, it's an expensive endeavor, but in the big scheme of things, I think that -- you know -- every dollar that we invest in the space program when we do something challenging like this is probably $10 that our economy is going to get back sometime in the future.

Larry Lemmons:
How is this for NASA astronauts now? I mean, you do have some sort of goal in the future. There was some question whether or not the shuttle was going to be taking off again, but now here is another plan. How is that for NASA astronauts? And I think you were saying, too, that you're going to be needing more astronauts. Aren't there some empty slots?

Mark Kelly:
I flew recently for the second return to flight mission after Columbia, and now I'm scheduled again for another flight pretty soon, pretty soon afterwards, and we're trying to fly -- you know -- we have about 16 more space shuttle flights before the end of the program. At the same time, we're in the process of ramping up the space station crew from three to six people, so we're going to be pretty busy in the astronaut office and quickly following the retirement. Shuttle we'll be flying Orion and the Aries spacecraft, so we do have a need for astronauts. I encourage anybody out there that's interested in math and science to follow that route if they're interested in a career as an astronaut.

Larry Lemmons:
I notice, bill, that the design of the Orion looks an awful lot like the old Apollo. We're I like, going back into that model again.

Bill Gregory:
We call it Apollo on steroids because it is a little bit bigger. As far as to the station, it will take six people, to the moon four people. When it goes to the moon, all four people will go to the surface. The part of orbiting the moon, what used to be called the command module that will be unmanned. Back in Apollo, we kept one person onboard and they tended to it, but with Orion, it will be unmanned, and the lunar surface module will be where all four astronauts go down to the surface. That's a unique philosophy.

Larry Lemmons:
I remember in the old days, the guy who stayed up there in the module --

Bill Gregory:
Oh, yeah. Poor Mike.

Larry Lemmons:
-- That was kind of horrible to be so close and not be able to touch that.

Bill Gregory:
Right. And we appreciate the fact that NASA's so confident in our avionics that they're willing to leave that untended vehicle knowing full well that, when they come back up on the ascent stage, it will be waiting for them

Mark Kelly:
Sure we want to do that?

Bill Gregory:
Yes.

Larry Lemons:
How close are we to completing the space station to such a degree where it is going to be a really viable launching site for that kind of thing?

Mark Kelly:
I take up the last big laboratory to the space station next April. I'll be on that mission that brings that up, and that's the last big habitable volume, and then it's considered pretty much a fully operational space station. We're going to use it for years and use it to test out the Orion spacecraft and actually use it to service the space station in the beginning of the Orion program before we're ready to go on to the moon.

Larry Lemmons:
Mark Kelly, bill Gregory, thanks so much for joining us today.

Mark Kelly:
You're welcome.

Bill Gregory:
You're welcome.

Larry Lemmons:
Good luck.

Bill Gregory:
Thanks.

Mark Kelly:
Thanks

Larry Lemmons:
The bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms reports more guns are flowing from north to south, ending up in the hands of Mexican criminal syndicates. I'll talk to the special agent in charge of the Phoenix bureau of the A.T.F. about gun running to Mexico, but first Mike Sauceda introduces us to the subject.

Mike Sauceda:
Tom Magnan, a special agent with the bureau of alcohol, tock back co, and firearms, shows us where some of the seized weapons are kept.

Tom Magnan:
There's an iron river of guns that flows from the United States into Mexico. These organizations want this type of fire power, not just limited to firearms. They need the ammunition obviously to load and work with the guns. They're violence has to be fueled, supported through threats and intimidation. How is that done? Through threats of violence and having the fire power to back it up. A.T.F. views this as a significant threat, and we're working very closely with our federal and state partners to obviously interdict any outbound loads of firearms in an attempt to try to stem and stop the firearms trafficking. You're running into assault rifles such as these ak-47's or Norenkos aks's. This is extremely, extremely lethal. This is --

Mike Sauceda:
The increased gun seizures including very lethal weapons. The rifles in the black cases were seized in one home. They contain military style M-16's. Magnon can't give us numbers.

Tom Magnan:
Unfortunately I can't go into specific numbers. We're prohibited from sharing that outside law enforcement. The numbers are significant by the loads enter interdicting here with A.T.F. resources. Also we're able to get a good gauge on how many guns are being traced on those that are recovered in crimes in Mexico. Of those guns that are being traced to origin countries such as the United States.

Mike Sauceda:
The weapons going to Mexico are purchased legally here by people who buy them and then sell them to smugglers. There are tough penalties for those straw man purchasers.

Tom Magnun:
There's significant federal penalties, not to exceed more than 10 years in prison, and a substantial fine. Obviously the U.S. attorney's office here and A.T.F. will fully prosecute those type of criminal investigations in pursuit of this crime of criminal investigations against any types of trafficking.

Mike Sauceda:
The guns are purchased at flea markets and gun shows. Like specialty guns for the crime bosses --

Tom Magnun:
Some of the custom guns that we're running into are these 38 supers. Somebody in the United States is going to pay up to $7000 per gun.

Mike Sauceda:
The weapons, more suited to a battlefield, are put to action not only in Mexico but also on this side of the border.

Tom Magnun:
The violence isn't just limited to what's happening in Mexico. These organizations are making their money where? Through their illegal activities in the border crossing and the crime they're committing over here also. Tucson sector, Yuma sector seeing significant increases in violence amongst their border patrol and amongst ice. Again, just because the guns are heading south doesn't mean that that crime is limited south of the border.

Mike Sauceda:
U.S. authorities are working with Mexican authorities to stop the iron river flowing into Mexico.

Tom Magnun:
We're working very closely with the Mexican authorities. There are several programs that A.T.F. is participating in with respect to any crime guns being used in Mexico. Aggressively try to trace those guns to show where these criminal organizations are obtaining their guns, and those guns are coming back to be traced was a source of supply as Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, various states around the country but more prevalent we're showing more of a significant -- significant resource as where they're obtaining the guns are the border states.

Larry Lemmons:
Here with more on gun running is William Newell, the special agent in charge of the phoenix A.T.F. thanks, bill, very much for coming down here.

William Newell:
Thank you, Larry.

Larry Lemmons:
Where are these guys getting the guns here in this country, and who's getting them?

William Newell:
From various sources. From licensed dealers, from flea markets, gun shows. They buy them in myriad ways, and in Mexico they buy them mainly in the border states like California, Arizona, Texas, and New Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
Clearly it's all legal, whoever is buying these guns.

William Newell:
Not necessarily. There's what we call straw purchases which is individuals who will go in to buy a gun from a licensed dealer or a licensed dealer doing business at a gun show for somebody else who can't legally buy a gun, so it's called a straw purchase.

Larry Lemmons:
Could you describe that a little more?

William Newell:
In many ways, it's people who are duped or who knowingly buy guns from people who are prohibited. People coming in from Mexico can't legally buy a gun or convicted felons. They'll find a relative or friend to go into a gun store, lie on the form and commit a federal felony so that that person who's waiting outside can get the gun and illegally traffic is down to Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
You were saying there could be somebody sitting on a bench which where out there who could approach them.

William Newell:
Right. There's all different kinds of schemes that are used. Mostly sensed dealers are doing business legally, but there are those dealers who aren't, and they're of concern to us because they're putting guns on the streets not only here but in other countries such as Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
There there's a par -- if there's a particular dealer with guns that you trace back to them, do you do something to them?

William Newell:
Sure. We try to get them into compliance. They may not know all the regulations. If we know they're doing something legally and knowingly and willfully violating the law, we're going to investigate they will criminally. All throughout the border, all throughout the United States, there's not only international firearms trafficking, there's domestic from New York and Boston, what have you. Of course, here on the border, it's primarily Mexico -- to Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
Do you have any numbers, any about what the volume is going across the border?

William Newell:
It's thousands of guns a year, and we don't really know exactly the numbers because many times we won't know when that gun was trafficked illegally unless it's recovered in a crime and then traced.

Larry Lemmons:
How do you know where they're coming across? I mean, are there more in Texas? Are there more in Texas, New Mexico? California? You said the border states.

William Newell:
Most of the firearms trace in Mexico and points south into South America, Latin America come from your border states. Texas is predominantly the largest because they have the largest population along the border. Then Arizona, California, New Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
These guns in the video looked pretty vicious this.

William Newell:
Right.

Larry Lemmons:
What does this mean to law enforcement?

William Newell:
Well, it's a serious concern to law enforcement in the United States as well as a serious concern to Mexico. The new administration, President Calderon, is taking it very seriously. We're working with that administration like we've never worked before. You see your violent drug cartels, human smuggling cartels who are arming themselves with a high-power, high-capacity weapon. Those are major concern to us.

Larry Lemmons:
Who is bringing them across? Coyotes and things like that? What sort of crimes are being committed with these weapons?

William Newell:
Places like Loredo, those are your high power weapons. Most of the coyotes won't take those weapons. They'll take smaller handguns because they're lighter. But your Mexican drug cartels are ones that will invest heavily in the high powered, high quality firearms.

Larry Lemmons:
And of course those firearms are worse a lot more across the border.

William Newell:
You buy a gun in the U.S. for $500; you can easily sell it for $4000, $5000 in Mexico. The higher quality gun, the higher price it will come in Mexico if you sell it.

Larry Lemmons:
Thanks very much, Bill Newell, for coming by and visits us today and talking about -- this is a scare rear problem than I think we realized.

William Newell:
Well, we're doing our best to address it and working with not only U.S. law enforcement and Mexican law enforcement. So we're doing our best.

Larry Lemmons:
Thanks, sir.

William Newell:
Thanks You.

Larry Lemmons:
Texas Republican Congressman Ron Paul may not be a household name, but he'd like to change that. Paul is running for president as a Republican although he has heavy Libertarian leanings. Mike Sauceda talked to Paul about his candidacy.

Mike Sauceda:
Congressman Paul, thank you for joining us on "Horizon" tonight.

Ron Paul:
Thank you. It's good to be here.

Mike Sauceda:
Tell us where you're at with the campaign. You've officially announced you have the exploratory committee?

Ron Paul:
Yes. I became an official candidate a few weeks ago, and things are going quite well.

Mike Sauceda:
And you're running as a republican.

Ron Paul:
As a Republican. And the Republican primary. And there's a pretty good contest going on.

Mike Sauceda:
It seems like a lot of libertarians like you.

Ron Paul:
Yes. I haven't identified with libertarianism. I was the libertarian candidate in 1988, and a lot of people identify with libertarianism, especially in Arizona. They don't shy away from the word, because it really means that we believe in liberty and the constitution as a pretty good defense of liberty. We bring strict constitutional lists together with libertarian leaning people who want to get the governments off their backs and out of their lives. There's a fertile field for that philosophy.

Mike Sauceda:
Is that your main point in this race that you'd like to have us follow the constitution and shrink government?

Ron Paul:
I think that's what I have the authority to do. You know, I could argue the case that maybe the government shouldn't be doing a, b, and c, but if it's in the constitution, I don't have a strong argument against it. I believe in very limited government, but that's what the constitution says. So whether it has to do with domestic welfare policy entitlement system, education, medical care or in for policy, there is very little room for the kind of things that we're doing worldwide as well as domestically. Of course my conviction is that we're moving toward a bankruptcy, because our appetite is too big for our government, and we don't have enough productivity in this country anymore to sustain it, so therefore we have to keep borrowing a lot of money. And to continue to run our programs, we have to borrow almost $3 billion a day from foreigners just to maintain our military operation as well as our entitlement system. I'm working on the assumption -- and many others agree -- that this can't last. It will come to an end.

Mike Sauceda:
What do you think we should do about Iraq? Should we get out? And if so, how and when?

Ron Paul:
I think we should get out and get out as soon as possible e which means weeks, not years, and save a lot of money, save hundreds of billions of dollars by avoiding a claim that the token victory that has been achieved has been achieved. Saddam Hussein is gone. We're not a very good arbitrator of peace in that country. As long as we're there, the more fighting I think is going to go on. So, yes, it's going to be messy even after we leave, but the mess is not because we're leaving. The mess is because we went. So if we went in, caused trouble, the sooner we get out, the better. And I think the American people are asking for that, demanding it. And yet so far even since the election there's no real signs that we're moving in that direction. Even the democrats, who have more or less received this mandate to do something about Iraq, have continued to support the war and the financing of the war. They're giving the president more than he even asked for to fight the war. And I think it's time we had a different kind of leadership that says it is not in our national interest. We're going to be stronger by coming home rather than staying there just draining our resources and losing so many personnel both by men and women being killed as well as so many being wounded.

Mike Sauceda:
In 1988, you ran on the libertarian ticket for president. Tell us about how that race differs from the race now. And I think a lot of it has to do with the web.

Ron Paul:
Yeah. That is true. First off, it's very difficult to compete in a third party, because of the laws biased against us. And Ross Perot to a degree overcame some of that because he had 10's if not hundreds of millions of dollars that he could pump into his campaign. And to get on ballots, it's very, very difficult. Today is very different. First off, I'm running as a republican, which puts me in a different position. You get more credible interviewing and get to be in the debates. But it is a lot different also because of what you suggest, and that is the use of the internet. The internet really didn't exist to any extent in 1988, and yet now it is just amazing how people are watching the internet. So you can gather up supporters and you can spread a message. You can raise money. And hopefully that will translate into votes and a successful campaign.

Mike Sauceda:
Is there a Ron Paul "You Tube" video out there yet?

Ron Paul:
There is. And there's lots of activity on the internet that I have trouble keeping up with, but it all seems to be very beneficial.

Mike Sauceda:
Are you in this race to win or maybe inject some ideas?

Ron Paul:
Oh, I think both. I think you can be in a race to win, because if you go in and you don't want to win or don't expect there's the slightest possibility, you run a different type of campaign, so I'm also very realistic and know what the odds are. You also want to have an impact. So if you don't have that victory which is a possibility, then you also might be able to persuade people to think about the important issues. And I think that's why an individual like myself is important enough to tell the truth to the American people, what's agency goal on, what they're facing up to, the kind of foreign policy we have, kind of monetary policy we have, talk about getting rid of the I.R.S. and the federal reserve system, talk about why it's not necessary for our national seniority to be involved in the united nations. All these issues -- you know -- resound pretty well with a lot of people in this country, more so than ever before. So I would say that there's reason to be pleasantly surprised about the reception that we're going to get.

Mike Sauceda:
Let's talk about an issue that's not only big here in Arizona but throughout the nation, and that is illegal immigration. What would you do about illegal immigration?

Ron Paul:
Well, there are several things. I have some legislation that I've introduced to try to make the point of what I think should be done. I do not support amnesty. I won't think we should ever reward illegal immigration but we shouldn't be opposed time congratulations. At the same time, I also would change or clarify I believe a misunderstanding that all you have to do is step across a border and have a baby and then become an automatic citizen and qualify for all the welfare benefits. So he would try to de-emphasize the incentives to come.

Mike Sauceda:
Do you think there's a conflict between your hard stance or immigration and the libertarian stance on some other issues like the drug war or prostitution where it seems to be more to legalize these activities?

Ron Paul:
I would say, with the libertarians, I'm not for certainly any national laws dealing with drug control, internet control, what people read on prostitution. That is, to me, a state issue dealing with the abortion issue also. I do disagree generally with libertarians, because a large number of them aren't right to life, and I believe life is precious. I don't believe I can protect your personal liberty if I don't protect all life. But I think it's a state issue, and it should be protected at the state level.

Mike Sauceda:
Congressman Paul, thank you for being on "Horizon." good luck with your presidential run.

Ron Paul:
Thank you. Very nice to be here.

Larry Lemmons:
Thanks very much for joining us on this Thursday edition of "Horizon." I'm Larry Lemmons. Join us tomorrow night for the "Journalists' Roundtable." we'll be talking about President Bush's visit to the border in Yuma and also Senator John McCain's presidential campaign. That's tomorrow night on "Horizon." Good night.

Presidential Candidate


  • Texas Congressman Ron Paul is running for President as a Republican. However, Paul has strong support from Libertarians because of his views. Paul will talk about his candidacy and where he stands on the issues.
Guests:
  • Bill Gregory - Former astronaut
  • Mark Kelly - Astronaut
  • William Newell - Special agent in charge, Phoenix A.T.F.
Category: Elections

View Transcript
Larry Lemmons:
Tonight on "Horizon," a valley company will be building flight controls for the spacecraft which will soon replace the space shuttle. We'll talk to two astronauts about it.
Gun running to Mexico is increasing. Find out what's happening.
And meet Ron Paul, a republican congressman running for president who's well liked by members of another political party. That's coming up next on "Horizon."

Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by contributions from the friends of eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Larry Lemmons:
Good evening and welcome to "Horizon." I'm Larry Lemmons. In the news tonight, federal inspectors found problems at the Arizona state veteran home a month before state investigators found them. Investigators from the Department of Veterans Affairs visited the nursing home January 22 through 29 and found that staff was not answering call lights quickly. Federal investigators also found that one patient, who has a history of being drunk, left the central phoenix facility and had to be brought back by fire officials. However, the federal inspectors did not find problems as severe as the state inspectors.

Larry Lemmons:
Flight controls and the mission computer for the next generation of spacecraft will be built here in the valley by Honeywell aerospace. The controls will go in the new Orion crew exploration vehicle. Earlier I spoke with former astronaut Bill Gregory and astronaut Mark Kelly about the project.

Larry Lemmons:
So, Mark, Orion is the next generation of spacecraft for NASA. How is Orion and its mission different from the space shuttle?

Mark Kelly:
Well, space shuttle's been serving us for over 20 years. It's a very capable vehicle, able to take a big payload into orbit and a lot of stuff back home, too, land on the runway. Orion is different in that it's a capsule launched on top of a rocket that's going to take us to the space station but really just a crew. And then, with a Lunar Lander later, is going to take us back to the surface of the moon and get us home and ultimately could be used as part of a system that will get us to mars and back.

Larry Lemmons:
Going to the space station, it's wonderful, and I think we have that partnership with Russia as well to try to build that up, but I know that people have been wanting to go back to the moon. It provides a lot of inspiration, I think, for people. It's good for NASA, too.

Mark Kelly:
It's exciting, challenging, and the challenge in doing something that's that difficult, sending people to the moon, living there for a long period of time, is going to produce some incredible technological advancements for our nation and the entire planet.

Larry Lemmons:
So, bill, is the shuttle due to be phased out by 2010? Is that correct?

Bill Gregory:
Approximately 2010. That's correct. And it serves us well, and we'll never see that kind of capability again, but one of the aspects of Orion is the fact that it's going to be much safer mostly because it's a simpler operation.

Larry Lemmons:
How is Honeywell involved in that? I mean, what part will Honeywell play in building the Orion?

Bill Gregory:
Well, we're very proud to have the lead roll on avionics, and so we'll be designing the cockpit, the displays, the interactive devices which of course are what the astronauts are going to pay attention to and use, and so we're very proud of having that role. That is very exciting for our engineers to be doing this.

Larry Lemmons:
How did Phoenix and Honeywell get involved in that through lock we'd he'd martin?

Bill Gregory:
Actually Mike Coats, now the director of the Johnson space center, was the vice president at Lockheed Martin at the time, and he and I are both former astronauts, and we worked together to forge a deal and present is to each of our companies and went forward at that point.

Larry Lemmons:
The navigation system and mission computer: how is that going to be different? Is that going to be a step up also from the technology that had been available previously?

Bill Gregory:
Actually it's kind of interesting. Normally, in the past, we've also thought of NASA as providing the cutting edge technology. This time in fact, we're taking proven technology that we use every day in commercial airliners, and we're taking it -- making it for space. So we're kind of doing it in reverse. We're taken proven technology and taking it to orbit rather than bringing something down from orbit. And the reason that NASA is thrilled about this idea is it removes a lot of risk when it comes to cost and to schedule, because a lot of research and development work has already been done, number one, and number two, because it's a proven entity, there's a lot less risk that the schedule will be delayed.

Larry Lemmons:
That's really where it's going, it seems to me, much more private involvement and that sort of thing. I guess, in a sense, getting taxpayer approval sometimes is very difficult. It's a way of reaching out.

Mark Kelly:
It is. The space program, to do something as -- you know -- forward looking as -- you know -- putting people back on the moon and going on to mars, it's an expensive endeavor, but in the big scheme of things, I think that -- you know -- every dollar that we invest in the space program when we do something challenging like this is probably $10 that our economy is going to get back sometime in the future.

Larry Lemmons:
How is this for NASA astronauts now? I mean, you do have some sort of goal in the future. There was some question whether or not the shuttle was going to be taking off again, but now here is another plan. How is that for NASA astronauts? And I think you were saying, too, that you're going to be needing more astronauts. Aren't there some empty slots?

Mark Kelly:
I flew recently for the second return to flight mission after Columbia, and now I'm scheduled again for another flight pretty soon, pretty soon afterwards, and we're trying to fly -- you know -- we have about 16 more space shuttle flights before the end of the program. At the same time, we're in the process of ramping up the space station crew from three to six people, so we're going to be pretty busy in the astronaut office and quickly following the retirement. Shuttle we'll be flying Orion and the Aries spacecraft, so we do have a need for astronauts. I encourage anybody out there that's interested in math and science to follow that route if they're interested in a career as an astronaut.

Larry Lemmons:
I notice, bill, that the design of the Orion looks an awful lot like the old Apollo. We're I like, going back into that model again.

Bill Gregory:
We call it Apollo on steroids because it is a little bit bigger. As far as to the station, it will take six people, to the moon four people. When it goes to the moon, all four people will go to the surface. The part of orbiting the moon, what used to be called the command module that will be unmanned. Back in Apollo, we kept one person onboard and they tended to it, but with Orion, it will be unmanned, and the lunar surface module will be where all four astronauts go down to the surface. That's a unique philosophy.

Larry Lemmons:
I remember in the old days, the guy who stayed up there in the module --

Bill Gregory:
Oh, yeah. Poor Mike.

Larry Lemmons:
-- That was kind of horrible to be so close and not be able to touch that.

Bill Gregory:
Right. And we appreciate the fact that NASA's so confident in our avionics that they're willing to leave that untended vehicle knowing full well that, when they come back up on the ascent stage, it will be waiting for them

Mark Kelly:
Sure we want to do that?

Bill Gregory:
Yes.

Larry Lemons:
How close are we to completing the space station to such a degree where it is going to be a really viable launching site for that kind of thing?

Mark Kelly:
I take up the last big laboratory to the space station next April. I'll be on that mission that brings that up, and that's the last big habitable volume, and then it's considered pretty much a fully operational space station. We're going to use it for years and use it to test out the Orion spacecraft and actually use it to service the space station in the beginning of the Orion program before we're ready to go on to the moon.

Larry Lemmons:
Mark Kelly, bill Gregory, thanks so much for joining us today.

Mark Kelly:
You're welcome.

Bill Gregory:
You're welcome.

Larry Lemmons:
Good luck.

Bill Gregory:
Thanks.

Mark Kelly:
Thanks

Larry Lemmons:
The bureau of alcohol, tobacco, and firearms reports more guns are flowing from north to south, ending up in the hands of Mexican criminal syndicates. I'll talk to the special agent in charge of the Phoenix bureau of the A.T.F. about gun running to Mexico, but first Mike Sauceda introduces us to the subject.

Mike Sauceda:
Tom Magnan, a special agent with the bureau of alcohol, tock back co, and firearms, shows us where some of the seized weapons are kept.

Tom Magnan:
There's an iron river of guns that flows from the United States into Mexico. These organizations want this type of fire power, not just limited to firearms. They need the ammunition obviously to load and work with the guns. They're violence has to be fueled, supported through threats and intimidation. How is that done? Through threats of violence and having the fire power to back it up. A.T.F. views this as a significant threat, and we're working very closely with our federal and state partners to obviously interdict any outbound loads of firearms in an attempt to try to stem and stop the firearms trafficking. You're running into assault rifles such as these ak-47's or Norenkos aks's. This is extremely, extremely lethal. This is --

Mike Sauceda:
The increased gun seizures including very lethal weapons. The rifles in the black cases were seized in one home. They contain military style M-16's. Magnon can't give us numbers.

Tom Magnan:
Unfortunately I can't go into specific numbers. We're prohibited from sharing that outside law enforcement. The numbers are significant by the loads enter interdicting here with A.T.F. resources. Also we're able to get a good gauge on how many guns are being traced on those that are recovered in crimes in Mexico. Of those guns that are being traced to origin countries such as the United States.

Mike Sauceda:
The weapons going to Mexico are purchased legally here by people who buy them and then sell them to smugglers. There are tough penalties for those straw man purchasers.

Tom Magnun:
There's significant federal penalties, not to exceed more than 10 years in prison, and a substantial fine. Obviously the U.S. attorney's office here and A.T.F. will fully prosecute those type of criminal investigations in pursuit of this crime of criminal investigations against any types of trafficking.

Mike Sauceda:
The guns are purchased at flea markets and gun shows. Like specialty guns for the crime bosses --

Tom Magnun:
Some of the custom guns that we're running into are these 38 supers. Somebody in the United States is going to pay up to $7000 per gun.

Mike Sauceda:
The weapons, more suited to a battlefield, are put to action not only in Mexico but also on this side of the border.

Tom Magnun:
The violence isn't just limited to what's happening in Mexico. These organizations are making their money where? Through their illegal activities in the border crossing and the crime they're committing over here also. Tucson sector, Yuma sector seeing significant increases in violence amongst their border patrol and amongst ice. Again, just because the guns are heading south doesn't mean that that crime is limited south of the border.

Mike Sauceda:
U.S. authorities are working with Mexican authorities to stop the iron river flowing into Mexico.

Tom Magnun:
We're working very closely with the Mexican authorities. There are several programs that A.T.F. is participating in with respect to any crime guns being used in Mexico. Aggressively try to trace those guns to show where these criminal organizations are obtaining their guns, and those guns are coming back to be traced was a source of supply as Arizona, Texas, New Mexico, various states around the country but more prevalent we're showing more of a significant -- significant resource as where they're obtaining the guns are the border states.

Larry Lemmons:
Here with more on gun running is William Newell, the special agent in charge of the phoenix A.T.F. thanks, bill, very much for coming down here.

William Newell:
Thank you, Larry.

Larry Lemmons:
Where are these guys getting the guns here in this country, and who's getting them?

William Newell:
From various sources. From licensed dealers, from flea markets, gun shows. They buy them in myriad ways, and in Mexico they buy them mainly in the border states like California, Arizona, Texas, and New Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
Clearly it's all legal, whoever is buying these guns.

William Newell:
Not necessarily. There's what we call straw purchases which is individuals who will go in to buy a gun from a licensed dealer or a licensed dealer doing business at a gun show for somebody else who can't legally buy a gun, so it's called a straw purchase.

Larry Lemmons:
Could you describe that a little more?

William Newell:
In many ways, it's people who are duped or who knowingly buy guns from people who are prohibited. People coming in from Mexico can't legally buy a gun or convicted felons. They'll find a relative or friend to go into a gun store, lie on the form and commit a federal felony so that that person who's waiting outside can get the gun and illegally traffic is down to Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
You were saying there could be somebody sitting on a bench which where out there who could approach them.

William Newell:
Right. There's all different kinds of schemes that are used. Mostly sensed dealers are doing business legally, but there are those dealers who aren't, and they're of concern to us because they're putting guns on the streets not only here but in other countries such as Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
There there's a par -- if there's a particular dealer with guns that you trace back to them, do you do something to them?

William Newell:
Sure. We try to get them into compliance. They may not know all the regulations. If we know they're doing something legally and knowingly and willfully violating the law, we're going to investigate they will criminally. All throughout the border, all throughout the United States, there's not only international firearms trafficking, there's domestic from New York and Boston, what have you. Of course, here on the border, it's primarily Mexico -- to Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
Do you have any numbers, any about what the volume is going across the border?

William Newell:
It's thousands of guns a year, and we don't really know exactly the numbers because many times we won't know when that gun was trafficked illegally unless it's recovered in a crime and then traced.

Larry Lemmons:
How do you know where they're coming across? I mean, are there more in Texas? Are there more in Texas, New Mexico? California? You said the border states.

William Newell:
Most of the firearms trace in Mexico and points south into South America, Latin America come from your border states. Texas is predominantly the largest because they have the largest population along the border. Then Arizona, California, New Mexico.

Larry Lemmons:
These guns in the video looked pretty vicious this.

William Newell:
Right.

Larry Lemmons:
What does this mean to law enforcement?

William Newell:
Well, it's a serious concern to law enforcement in the United States as well as a serious concern to Mexico. The new administration, President Calderon, is taking it very seriously. We're working with that administration like we've never worked before. You see your violent drug cartels, human smuggling cartels who are arming themselves with a high-power, high-capacity weapon. Those are major concern to us.

Larry Lemmons:
Who is bringing them across? Coyotes and things like that? What sort of crimes are being committed with these weapons?

William Newell:
Places like Loredo, those are your high power weapons. Most of the coyotes won't take those weapons. They'll take smaller handguns because they're lighter. But your Mexican drug cartels are ones that will invest heavily in the high powered, high quality firearms.

Larry Lemmons:
And of course those firearms are worse a lot more across the border.

William Newell:
You buy a gun in the U.S. for $500; you can easily sell it for $4000, $5000 in Mexico. The higher quality gun, the higher price it will come in Mexico if you sell it.

Larry Lemmons:
Thanks very much, Bill Newell, for coming by and visits us today and talking about -- this is a scare rear problem than I think we realized.

William Newell:
Well, we're doing our best to address it and working with not only U.S. law enforcement and Mexican law enforcement. So we're doing our best.

Larry Lemmons:
Thanks, sir.

William Newell:
Thanks You.

Larry Lemmons:
Texas Republican Congressman Ron Paul may not be a household name, but he'd like to change that. Paul is running for president as a Republican although he has heavy Libertarian leanings. Mike Sauceda talked to Paul about his candidacy.

Mike Sauceda:
Congressman Paul, thank you for joining us on "Horizon" tonight.

Ron Paul:
Thank you. It's good to be here.

Mike Sauceda:
Tell us where you're at with the campaign. You've officially announced you have the exploratory committee?

Ron Paul:
Yes. I became an official candidate a few weeks ago, and things are going quite well.

Mike Sauceda:
And you're running as a republican.

Ron Paul:
As a Republican. And the Republican primary. And there's a pretty good contest going on.

Mike Sauceda:
It seems like a lot of libertarians like you.

Ron Paul:
Yes. I haven't identified with libertarianism. I was the libertarian candidate in 1988, and a lot of people identify with libertarianism, especially in Arizona. They don't shy away from the word, because it really means that we believe in liberty and the constitution as a pretty good defense of liberty. We bring strict constitutional lists together with libertarian leaning people who want to get the governments off their backs and out of their lives. There's a fertile field for that philosophy.

Mike Sauceda:
Is that your main point in this race that you'd like to have us follow the constitution and shrink government?

Ron Paul:
I think that's what I have the authority to do. You know, I could argue the case that maybe the government shouldn't be doing a, b, and c, but if it's in the constitution, I don't have a strong argument against it. I believe in very limited government, but that's what the constitution says. So whether it has to do with domestic welfare policy entitlement system, education, medical care or in for policy, there is very little room for the kind of things that we're doing worldwide as well as domestically. Of course my conviction is that we're moving toward a bankruptcy, because our appetite is too big for our government, and we don't have enough productivity in this country anymore to sustain it, so therefore we have to keep borrowing a lot of money. And to continue to run our programs, we have to borrow almost $3 billion a day from foreigners just to maintain our military operation as well as our entitlement system. I'm working on the assumption -- and many others agree -- that this can't last. It will come to an end.

Mike Sauceda:
What do you think we should do about Iraq? Should we get out? And if so, how and when?

Ron Paul:
I think we should get out and get out as soon as possible e which means weeks, not years, and save a lot of money, save hundreds of billions of dollars by avoiding a claim that the token victory that has been achieved has been achieved. Saddam Hussein is gone. We're not a very good arbitrator of peace in that country. As long as we're there, the more fighting I think is going to go on. So, yes, it's going to be messy even after we leave, but the mess is not because we're leaving. The mess is because we went. So if we went in, caused trouble, the sooner we get out, the better. And I think the American people are asking for that, demanding it. And yet so far even since the election there's no real signs that we're moving in that direction. Even the democrats, who have more or less received this mandate to do something about Iraq, have continued to support the war and the financing of the war. They're giving the president more than he even asked for to fight the war. And I think it's time we had a different kind of leadership that says it is not in our national interest. We're going to be stronger by coming home rather than staying there just draining our resources and losing so many personnel both by men and women being killed as well as so many being wounded.

Mike Sauceda:
In 1988, you ran on the libertarian ticket for president. Tell us about how that race differs from the race now. And I think a lot of it has to do with the web.

Ron Paul:
Yeah. That is true. First off, it's very difficult to compete in a third party, because of the laws biased against us. And Ross Perot to a degree overcame some of that because he had 10's if not hundreds of millions of dollars that he could pump into his campaign. And to get on ballots, it's very, very difficult. Today is very different. First off, I'm running as a republican, which puts me in a different position. You get more credible interviewing and get to be in the debates. But it is a lot different also because of what you suggest, and that is the use of the internet. The internet really didn't exist to any extent in 1988, and yet now it is just amazing how people are watching the internet. So you can gather up supporters and you can spread a message. You can raise money. And hopefully that will translate into votes and a successful campaign.

Mike Sauceda:
Is there a Ron Paul "You Tube" video out there yet?

Ron Paul:
There is. And there's lots of activity on the internet that I have trouble keeping up with, but it all seems to be very beneficial.

Mike Sauceda:
Are you in this race to win or maybe inject some ideas?

Ron Paul:
Oh, I think both. I think you can be in a race to win, because if you go in and you don't want to win or don't expect there's the slightest possibility, you run a different type of campaign, so I'm also very realistic and know what the odds are. You also want to have an impact. So if you don't have that victory which is a possibility, then you also might be able to persuade people to think about the important issues. And I think that's why an individual like myself is important enough to tell the truth to the American people, what's agency goal on, what they're facing up to, the kind of foreign policy we have, kind of monetary policy we have, talk about getting rid of the I.R.S. and the federal reserve system, talk about why it's not necessary for our national seniority to be involved in the united nations. All these issues -- you know -- resound pretty well with a lot of people in this country, more so than ever before. So I would say that there's reason to be pleasantly surprised about the reception that we're going to get.

Mike Sauceda:
Let's talk about an issue that's not only big here in Arizona but throughout the nation, and that is illegal immigration. What would you do about illegal immigration?

Ron Paul:
Well, there are several things. I have some legislation that I've introduced to try to make the point of what I think should be done. I do not support amnesty. I won't think we should ever reward illegal immigration but we shouldn't be opposed time congratulations. At the same time, I also would change or clarify I believe a misunderstanding that all you have to do is step across a border and have a baby and then become an automatic citizen and qualify for all the welfare benefits. So he would try to de-emphasize the incentives to come.

Mike Sauceda:
Do you think there's a conflict between your hard stance or immigration and the libertarian stance on some other issues like the drug war or prostitution where it seems to be more to legalize these activities?

Ron Paul:
I would say, with the libertarians, I'm not for certainly any national laws dealing with drug control, internet control, what people read on prostitution. That is, to me, a state issue dealing with the abortion issue also. I do disagree generally with libertarians, because a large number of them aren't right to life, and I believe life is precious. I don't believe I can protect your personal liberty if I don't protect all life. But I think it's a state issue, and it should be protected at the state level.

Mike Sauceda:
Congressman Paul, thank you for being on "Horizon." good luck with your presidential run.

Ron Paul:
Thank you. Very nice to be here.

Larry Lemmons:
Thanks very much for joining us on this Thursday edition of "Horizon." I'm Larry Lemmons. Join us tomorrow night for the "Journalists' Roundtable." we'll be talking about President Bush's visit to the border in Yuma and also Senator John McCain's presidential campaign. That's tomorrow night on "Horizon." Good night.

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