Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

October 26, 2006


Host: Michael Grant

shadegg/Paine Debate


  • A debate between the candidates in U.S. Congressional District 3. Republican incumbent John Shadegg debates the issues with Democratic challenger Herb Paine.
Guests:
  • John Shadegg - U. S. Congressman, Republican incumbent
Category: Elections

View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on Horizon, immigration, one of many issues that will occupy the time of lawmakers after the election. A debate tonight on the race for U.S. Congressional District 3, Republican incumbent John Shadegg facing off with Democratic challenger Herb Paine. That's next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by contributions from the friends of Eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Tonight Horizon presents a debate between the two candidates for the United States congressional district seat 3. Before we begin, here is a quick biography of both.

Larry Lemmons:
Shadegg has represented Arizona's third congressional district since 1994. He has served as chairman of the Republican study committee and chairman of the house policy committee. He received a B.A. And law degree from the University of Arizona. He is married and has two children. Herb Paine is president of Paine consulting services. Previously, he was executive director of United Way of California. He has a bachelor's from Boston University and a master's from Johns Hopkins School of advanced international studies, specializing in American foreign policy, soviet affairs and international economics. He is married and has a daughter.

Michael Grant:
We did invite the Libertarian candidate, Mark Yanonne, to participate in tonight's debate, but he declined. Joining me now to talk about issues that will be preoccupying the next Congressman from District 3, the Republican incumbent Representative John Shadegg, and his Democratic challenger Herb Paine. In a spirit of full and fair disclosure, Mr. Paine is a member of the Eight community advisory board. Each candidate will have one minute to make an opening statement. The order of presentation chosen randomly before the show. Congressman Shadegg, you are first.

John Shadegg:
Michael, thank you very much. I want to thank you and Horizon and channel eight for making this opportunity available to us and I want to thank my opponent, Herb Paine. I think this is a vitally important election. For our nation and I think it's critical that we debate the issues facing the nation. I think that that is essential for a democracy and I appreciate the opportunity to have that discussion. This election I think is particularly important. It will affect not just Arizona, but our nation and indeed the world. Radical Islamic terrorists have made their intentions clear. They have launched a war against the United States and they intend to destroy us and all that we stand for. They began attacking the United States and Americans long before September 11 and they continued that attack and attempted to attack this country since then. My position differs quite dramatically from my opponent's on the issue of the War on Terror, and I look forward to discussing that issue and others here tonight.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Paine, thanks for being here. Your opening statement.

Herb Paine:
Thank you, Michael, and thank you, Congressman. I am glad we have this opportunity to debate this evening. The people in this district in the third congressional district deserve the opportunity to hear the differences between the Congressman and myself. We don't get as much attention as Mr. Shadegg's neighbor, Mr. Hayworth and that means that the citizens of our district haven't really had a chance to hear much in the press or the media about what differentiates us but there is a great deal that differentiates us and I am hopeful this evening, we will use this debate for the purpose for which it's intended and that is to demonstrate to the voters of this district that there is a clear choice, the choice between someone who has been in Washington nearly a dozen years, and has failed to represent the interests of this district. Who has, for all intents and purposes, supported the administration's course of action without question. And I look forward to the opportunity this evening to discuss these and other issues with Mr. Shadegg.

Michael Grant:
You know, if it's any consolation nobody gets as much attention as J.D. Hayworth so I wouldn't feel real bad about it. Let's go to immigration first. And I want to try to focus this a little bit because it tends to be an issue that can get kind of nebulous and fuzzy. Let me focus on three key issues. And ask you what you would do in relation to each. Let's go, Mr. Paine, first, with sanctions against employers. Should they be toughened? And if so, how?

Herb Paine:
We already have laws on the books to impose sanctions against employers who hire knowingly people who have come here illegally. It is a matter of executing and implementing laws that already exist. And it raises the question of why, after 11 years, with Republican majority in congress and in the senate, we have yet to see real progress made in addressing the issue of immigration. Look, this is a problem that could have been solved if the will had existed to address it. And it hasn't been. It is a supply-demand issue, primarily contributed to by the desire of the American government and employers to secure labor at a suppressed cost.

Michael Grant:
So no stiffened sanctions, just better enforcement of the ones we got?

Herb Paine:
I think that's right.

Michael Grant:
All right. Congressman Shadegg, what do you think about that?

John Shadegg:
We clearly need to stiffen the sanctions but first we need to make it possible for employers to understand who's here lawfully and who isn't. The first step in the process is securing the border. The second step in the process is ending the magnet that draws them across and a part of that magnet, Michael, is illegal employment. But right now employers cannot find out who's here lawfully. We have to enable them to find out who's here lawfully by making that data available and punish employers who continue to hire illegal workers. But the magnet knelt is a huge issue. My opponent, for example, has called for a nationalized healthcare plan under which the American taxpayers would provide free healthcare to every illegal alien in the United States. That is a magnet that will draw people across and is just dead wrong. And one of many magnets that draws them across in addition to gaining illegal employment.

Herb Paine:
Mr. -- Congressman, you know that's not so. I haven't called for healthcare for illegal aliens. What I have basically argued in this issue is that this is a problem that, if we had had the desire to solve it, would have been solved. Think about it. It has been neither in the interests of the federal government of Mexico or the federal government of the United States nor the American employers in this country to solve this problem. We have -- I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Michael Grant:
What about the healthcare proposal, though? He's just flat wrong when he says that is what you would support?

Herb Paine:
Absolutely wrong.

John Shadegg:
Mr. Paine, you really ought to read the legislation you endorsed. This is a memo, fax sent out of your campaign on Sunday of this week on the 22nd, it says Herb Paine encourages all our readers to review and support the national health insurance act, HR 676 introduced by John Conyers. I have read the bill itself but I will read you the summary because it's exactly the same. It says, under this legislation, Medicare would be extended to any so all individuals residing in the United States would receive high quality and affordable healthcare. I asked others to read the legislation. It says, and indeed Mr. Conyers says in, on his website, he says not only all people residing in the United States but he says every person living in or visiting the United States. Mr. Paine, that's what the legislation you supported calls for. That's free legal care for every illegal alien.

Herb Paine:
The quick response is the Conyers legislation deserves attention as one option in a range of options that we need address in this country regarding accessibility and afford ability of healthcare. As Mr. Shadegg knows, not every provision within a piece of legislation is a provision that he or I would necessarily support. But we do know this the current system is broken, that Medicare is perhaps one of the most efficient opportunities to provide those who are unable to secure adequate healthcare, and so I don't think it's appropriate to put that up when, in fact, we have had 11 years of the Republican congress and a Republican administration that has failed to provide a solution to the problem of an out of control healthcare system in the United States.

Michael Grant:
Let me try to get back to the second, I think, major outstanding issue on immigration. What do you do with people who want to come here lawfully to work? It's been referred to obviously, Congressman Shadegg, as a guest worker program. How do you feel about it? And how should we implement it?

John Shadegg:
Michael, I support an approach that deals with three different aspects of this issue. Number one, you have to control the border physically. Number two, you have to stop the magnet of illegal jobs so you have to make it possible for employers to deny people jobs. But if they are not lawfully in the United States. But the third part of this is that we need the work force. In the agriculture industry, and many other industries we simply do not have enough workers in the United States. When I was a kid growing up in phoenix we had what was called the Brazero program. You remember it yourself. It worked very well. People came lawfully across the border. They worked. They worked for a period of time. They sent money home and when the work was done they went back home. That's a part of an overall solution. And you can't do this without that and it also relieved tension on the border itself.

Michael Grant:
The kind of numbers, though, that have been kicked around, are we creating a permanent subclass? Do we need that many workers coming over?

John Shadegg:
I think that the key, a very critical question is how many workers we do need. I will tell you we do need some workers. There were $2 million worth of melons plowed under in Yuma this year because we had no one to pick them. I have had some people say to knee me, I don't care but the problem is if we don't grow those melons here in the United States, because we don't allow work force to come in to grow them, then, that crop will go out of the United States and it will do economic damage. I think we have to have a balanced program and a temporary worker program just narrow enough to fill jobs that need to be filled is a part of that solution.

Michael Grant:
Guest worker program?

Herb Paine:
No, I think we need to manage the flow of labor from Latin American countries. I have made a proposal that the Arizona republic has itself called innovative. It suggests that we manage the flow of migrant labor by establishing work and clearing centers in those countries from which we get the bulk of our migrant labor, that we watch the jobs with the labor source that's available. That in those centers, we do the necessary clearance checks, the necessary security checks, provide the identification card, increased the number of visas available. This is a better alternative for those who wish to have jobs here for which jobs are available, than trying to cross the desert and risking their lives. But we also know that while we can manage that and create a temporary worker program, based upon such controls, that this problem will never be solved, certainly not by a fence, until we get tough with and direct with our neighbors to the south and insist that countries like Mexico invest in their population and invest in capital formation and economic development.

Michael Grant:
All right. Final issue and then I want to get to the War on Terror. I don't want to charge it. Whatever you want to call it. A pathway to citizenship, I doubt you want to call it amnesty but what do we do about an estimated eight to 10 million here who are here unlawfully?

Herb Paine: I am against amnesty. But we have a mess. A dilemma that's been the result of a failure of this administration and this Congress to tackle the problem of immigration. We have got to deal with people who have made a contribution to this economy and to the society. But we cannot give them a blank check for citizenship. We have alternatives. Either to create a program of attrition as some have suggested, which means precluding the ability of people who are working here to take advantage of our healthcare systems and our educational system. We have to appreciate the burden that that imposes upon our system. But we must ensure that those who have been here long enough have a pathway to citizenship as long as they learn thousand speak English, pass certain tests, pay certain fines and get to the back of the line.

Michael Grant:
Pathway to citizenship for those here?

John Shadegg:
No.

Michael Grant:
Or not?

John Shadegg:
No. We need to create a mechanism whereby we can deal with the people that are already unlawfully here but we can't reward them, Michael, for having come. I am a little troubled by Mr. Paine's answer to these questions. He says this is simple and this administration is just not done the job, and then he doesn't have a direct answer to it. He just now said, don't let them take advantage of the healthcare system. This is the eligibility provision of the bill he supports and it says, in the eligibility, statutory language, all individuals residing in the United States get government funded healthcare. It seems to me you could not it have both ways, Mr. Paine. You can't both say I support this bill for nationalized healthcare but, oh, boy the way, I don't want it to give to it Illegals when it clear lease gives it to Illegals. Are you saying you are wrong? Supporting this bill?

Herb Paine:
I have read the piece of legislation. I think the general context of promoting access and afford ability is right but I also know that as a nation, we have got to look at bills like Conyers, we have got to look at the genius and the wisdom of every other industrialized nation in this world that has created some form of health insurance coverage to provide for all of their citizens. We have a humanity dilemma here.

Michael Grant:
We need to move on. I want to get to the war in Iraq. I believe the Iraqi government, Congressman Shadegg, said something today about it expects to be fully functional in 12 to 18 months is it time to establish time line to get the United States out of Iraq?

John Shadegg:
Michael, I have been to Iraq three times. I have been to Afghanistan two times. I have talked with American soldiers every time I have been there and Arizona soldiers. I want them to come home at the earliest possible moment. But if you establish a time line, as my opponent has called for, you are sending a signal to the terrorists, here's when we can defeat you. Just lay low until that point in time. My opponent has called for an immediate withdrawal of all troops from Iraq. I believe that is an irresponsible position to take. I believe we have to win the War on Terror. I believe we have to confront the terrorists wherever they are around the world and defeat them and if we don't defeat them, there, we will have to meet them here. And this is an issue where we have a very, very bright line of difference between us.

Michael Grant:
And I want to go to Mr. Paine in just a minute, but I think a growing number of Americans aren't sure that the war in Iraq is, in fact, the War on Terror.

John Shadegg:
Actually, I think that they are being told that, but if you listen to Al-Qaeda, if you listen to the statements of Osama Bin Laden, he has said point blank, the center of the War on Terror is in Iraq. If you listen to Ayman Al-Zawahiri, he has said the center of the war is in Iraq, we defeat the Americans there and then use Iraq as a base of operations. I carry around an article written by first lieutenant Pegseth who served in Iraq and he says, which I happen to agree with, that we are fighting that war not to lose it. That is different than fighting it to win it. I think the American people are right not to support a war where we are not clearly winning that war. I have criticized the president directly at this point and talked to him face to face. We have to defeat the terrorists wherever we confront them and even the national intelligence estimate now says that the center of the War on Terror is in Iraq, and it says if they defeat us, the entire world will become more dangerous. And it says if we defeat them there the entire world will be safer.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Paine, do you support an immediate troop withdrawal?

Herb Paine:
I believe that we need to do this. One of the jobs of a Congressman is to hold the executive branch accountable and what this congress and Mr. Shadegg and have yet failed to do is to direct the defense department to formulate a strategy for the withdrawal of our troops, safer than when they went in. We are -- the result of our presence in Iraq is a disinvestment in resources in this country. He has talked about facing up to the president and the reality is you haven't been very effective with him. Because the president of the United States, Mr. Bush has continued a policy that has failed in the beginning, we were told that we would be greeted as liberators, that the war would be over in a jiffy. That oil would pay for the costs.

Michael Grant:
The war was over in a jiffy. We're just having a heck of a time getting out of there.

Herb Paine:
We now have three years worth of option in a country that is in the verge of chaos. What we need to do is this, Michael, which I don't believe the Congressman or this administration has presented. We need to direct the defense department to formulate a strategy for withdrawal. We need to work with the Iraqi government and powers in, regional powers in the area to ensure stability within Iraq, economic development.

Michael Grant:
Firm time line for that?

Herb Paine:
Yes. We need to --

Michael Grant: We are going --

Herb Paine: Back channel as much as we can. They need to know and not rely upon the continued presence of the United States there. By every criterion of this administration itself, we have failed in the war against what they call terror. When, in fact, there are multiple arenas in this conflicted.

Michael Grant:
Let me try to get, we are almost out of time. I do want to touch on --

John Shadegg:
You asked him if you supported immediate withdrawal. In his answer to the Arizona republic, I didn't hear an answer to that question. But in his answer to the Arizona republic survey he called for an immediate withdrawal from Iraq. I think that's an extreme position. I think it's a dangerous position and I don't think it's a mainstream position in America.

Michael Grant:
There is no logical way to segue to this. The tax cuts, Congressman Shadegg, I suspect that you -- you support making them permanent. Correct?

John Shadegg:
I absolutely support making them permanent. They have, in fact, reduced the tax burden of all Americans and they have reduced the tax burdens of those who earn the least the most. And they have actually increased the tax burden on the wealthiest of Americans. Prior to the 2003 tax cuts, the wealthiest Americans paid 34\% of all taxes. Following those in 2004, the wealthiest Americans paid 37\% of all taxes. My opponent favors raising taxes, federal taxes. He said so in his republic survey. It's an issue on which we clearly disagree and an issue on which I think John F. Kennedy was right, a rising tide lifts all boats. Economic prosperity that has come out of these tax cuts, the reduction in the deficit, it's been cut in half in three years early. I think absolutely I support extending them.

Herb Paine:
We see --

Michael Grant:
You don't?

Herb Paine:
We see it differently. I think after the one or 2\% of the wealthiest in America have had the benefit of the tax cut all I'm really interested in is seeing that we make an adjustment, that the middle class in our country get the benefit of tax cuts as well. I walk the district regularly. I have walked to thousands of homes and I wish the Congressman could walk with me to hear what the people in this district feel. What you say sounds good in Washington. But it doesn't sound good to the people here. The reality is that we have a $10 trillion national debt. We have got a $700 billion trade deficit. We are two-thirds right world owns more of us than owen ourselves. There's a growing disparity between rich and poor and the people in this district want to know that part of the benefits of these tax cuts will trickle down to them and they are not feeling it.

Michael Grant:
All right. Gentlemen, we are out of time for this debate between the candidates running for Arizona's third congressional district. Each candidate will be given one minute for a closing statement. The order was chosen by a coin toss. Not actually but I thought I would say and Mr. Paine, you go first.

Herb Paine:
Thank you, Michael. Once again I appreciate the opportunity for us to have had this chance to have an exchange. It is what I trust will be the beginning of a series of conversations because can't in a half hour cover all of the facts. Mr. Shadegg has made a point of referencing a number of my positions without accurately reflecting their true essence. But I will tell you this. That there is a fundamental question that I get wherever I go throughout this campaign and it is why is Mr. Shadegg so reluctant to bring dollars back to this district. I-17 is the best example where I have talked with local legislators, with public officials, with citizens of the district who still don't understand that I can't explain why Mr. Shadegg refuses to return dollars and to support investments in this district. All I can say at the end of this is, I thank you and Congressman Shadegg, I hope that we can do another one of these debates and I would ask you if you are available next Monday, so we can continue this conversation. I think it's important that the people of this district have a chance to hear more between us.

Michael Grant:
Congressman Shadegg, you can talk about that after the show.

John Shadegg:
A rather lengthy one minute. I want to thank you for this opportunity and for the debate as I said at the outset I think it's very important. I want to thank Mr. Paine for participating in this campaign and for bringing this, these issues to do people of Arizona. This is a critically important election for this nation. And my opponent and I disagree dramatically on many issues. I am sorry he just said I haven't accurately portrayed his position. I urge you to go on w www.az.central.com. Look at his legislation that I cited in an email out of his campaign. America has great challenges to face and it has been a tremendous privilege for me to serve in the United States congress. I have fought for lower taxes, less spending, less government regulation, and for congressional accountability and reform. I am going to continue to fight those if I have the privilege of getting your vote for support. I ran for majority leader of my party of a campaign of less spending and more accountability at federal level. I have been in the lead on that issue and I would like a chance to keep leading in that issue.

Michael Grant:
Congressman John Shadegg, thank you joins us. Mr. Herb Paine, thank you as well. No other local television show provides you with the in-depth comprehensive coverage Horizon does. You can learn more about elections on our website and here's more on that.

Mike Sauceda:
To get to the Horizon vote 2006 website, go to the eight website at www.azpbs.org. Once you are there click on vote 2006. That will take you to our Horizon vote 2006 home page, which is loaded with features to help you as you prepare to cast your ballot. One of the most prominent features is top videos. The top videos feature you can view past Horizon election shows. The five tabs on the upper part of the screen allow to you access all the information you need on the propositions, statewide races, the U.S. Senate race, congressional races and clean elections debates. For example, if you click on the proposition tab, you will get a list of propositions that will appear on the November ballot. Click on one of the propositions, such as prop 100, and you will get links to the text of the proposed amendment, analysis by the legislative counsel, arguments for and against the measure, official ballot language and dates of town halls on the measure. On the Horizon vote 2006 website you can access online videos, RSS feeds, podcasts and the Cronkite eight poll. A couple of other features you will want to check out. My ballot, a printable form to remind you of your choices as you vote. You can also check out when to watch Horizon election coverage.

Michael Grant:
Thank you very much for joining us this evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

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