Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

August 30, 2006


Host: Michael Grant

Arizona Education Update: Teacher Pay Part three of four


  • In 2006, the legislature passed a bill which would increase Arizona's teacher’s salaries ... but is it enough? We'll examine the policies and economics of teacher’s salaries in the Valley.
Guests:
  • Randy Pullen - Chairman, Protect Our City
  • Jake Jacobsen - President, Phoenix Law Enforcement Association
Category: Education

View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on Horizon we continue the week long series on education. We'll talk about Arizona teachers' current salary, where it ranks nationally. And an initiative that would require the City of Phoenix to enforce federal immigration laws. We'll take a look at Proposition 405. That's next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by contributions from the friends of Eight. Members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening, welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Teacher salary, a much talked about topic. Governor Napolitano considered it a priority in this year's budget negotiations. Nadine Arroyo gives us a glimpse at Arizona's teachers' pay raise.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Let's give a pay raise to every teacher in Arizona.

Nadine Arroyo:
In her 2006 State-of-the-State address, Governor Napolitano introduced several initiatives under the budget plan to improve teacher salaries. She proposed increasing teacher minimum base pay to $30,000 and giving all teachers a pay raise. By summer, after much negotiations, the governor and legislature came to an agreement. The allocated $100,000 in funds to boost teacher pay throughout the state. But is it enough? In today's education system when class size increases more and more each year greater numbers of statewide exams are administered and language is a barrier, teachers are expected to not only teach but also stay in par with increased professional demands. Surveys conducted by the American federation of teachers shows that in the last decade or so Arizona's average teacher salary is about $43,000. But the starting salary for a new teacher is 28,000. The 2005 study also shows that Arizona ranks 26th in the nation for teacher pay where the increase in average salary was lower than the national rate of inflation. Arizona legislators agree that pay raise is important, but some say only when it is earned. In other words, contingent on student performance. But many experts say increased teacher salary does not automatically constitute students achieving higher grade marks. It's the quality of the teacher. Another study conducted at the University of Missouri concluded teachers are paid quite fairly. They work 38-weeks a year, and like the students, have Spring and Fall breaks and are off on holidays. But some may disagree. In Arizona many teachers take second jobs to stay afloat. So could teacher pay be the reason for a shortage of teachers? Some experts say yes. Others say it's the state's fast-paced growth. And many agree, salary rates most often fail to reflect the professional qualifications and preparations teachers must endure.

Michael Grant:
The $100 million allocated for teacher pay raise under the 2007 budget has been distributed to Arizona school districts. Each district decided how those funds would be distributed as of July 1 of this year assuming the district decided that way teachers across the state received their raise. Teacher pay of course an ongoing issue in Arizona for many years, historically Arizona teachers have been paid below the national average while student growth in Arizona ranks among the fastest in the country. As a retrospective, let's take a look at a previous story from Producer Merry Lucero about the financial struggles teachers have faced.

Merry Lucero:
How rare are people who devote their lives to a career knowing they will be paid a fraction of their worth? Not as rare as you might think. They are thousands of Arizona teachers. Teachers like Ann Rifleman who with a Master's degree and 24-years in the same career has annual earnings in the high 40's and still struggles to make ends meet.

Ann Rifleman:
Living paycheck to paycheck is still a reality even after 24 years. It's difficult to save. I don't really have retirement on my screen right now, but I know it's ahead of me. And saving for that has been really difficult and has had to have a lot of planning. And I worry about what it's going to be like if I'm retired or if I'll ever be able to afford to retire.

Merry Lucero:
Donna Delgado has only been teaching for a year and is barely surviving on her income. She's a single mother of four and is still paying off her student loans.

Donna Delgado:
Well, it's kind of ironic that I'm part of the working poor. And I would like to, you know, not only be compensated for what I think is an important job but to be able to at least pay my basic bills and when I supply things in my classroom, to not have to choose between do I buy supplies for my classroom or do I put food on the table this week and how to do that balancing act for just the very basic essentials of life.

Merry Lucero:
Dr. Billie Enz heads the office that places teachers from ASU's College of Education. She says with starting salaries between 24 and $27,000 a year fewer graduates are entering the profession.

Billie Enz:
We had several students last year who graduated from our program with teaching degrees. And between the time the district was able to offer them a contract, they were offered other jobs working in businesses. They started at $29,000 and this year, at the end of their first year, they're going to be receiving a 4 to $5,000 bonus.

Merry Lucero:
Enz says the meager pay is also forcing current teachers to leave.

Billie Enz:
It takes about 5 to 7 years for a teacher to really reach full maturity as a strong professional. It's not something that you come out just ready to do. It's like a doctor. It takes time to practice that skill. It takes time to practice your craft. In the meantime, with the salaries being so low, they begin to get very discouraged. And so it just adds to their need leaving which adds to the teacher shortage.

Ann Rifleman:
People say go find another job. That's what's happening right now. People are retiring earlier and earlier because they can. They've been in the field as long as I have and they're eligible to retire and they're bailing and they're not going off to play golf. They're getting jobs that pay high so they have enough money to live on in retirement.

Merry Lucero:
There are some opportunities for extra income like running this after school program but teachers must take professional development classes and spend time after school preparing for course work and grading papers. So there is no time for a second job. And while most agree that teachers need a pay increase, the arguments are over how much and how to fund it. Attaching teacher salaries to student achievement has been suggested.

Billie Enz:
It is unfair to tie teacher salary to children's performance. Children in high needs areas are going to be performing lowly regardless of the effort and the energy the teacher puts into it.

Merry Lucero:
At the state Capitol, legislation to give teachers a raise has been introduced but will lawmakers pass it?

Ann Rifleman:
I've been a teacher for 24-years in a public school system. I have nothing but skepticism for the state legislature. And I've spent a lot of my time talking to my local legislators about the importance of public education and their investment. And they haven't been listening. And I'm frankly pretty disgusted with it, as are many of my colleagues.

Michael Grant:
Since that story originally aired, programs such as proceeds from Indian gaming have increased teacher pay. Proposition 301 of course implemented in the 2001-2002 school year, it increased the sales tax to put more money into education. Now at about $350 million a year, more than 90\% goes to teacher salaries and benefits among other teacher items. The Protect Our City initiative known as Proposition 405 would amend the Phoenix City charter to require all officials agencies and all personnel of the City of Phoenix to cooperate with and help federal authorities in enforcing immigration laws. The Phoenix City Council voted last week to put that initiative on the city's November ballot for voter approval assuming it survives a court challenge. Randy Pullen, Chairman of Protect Our City, and Jake Jacobsen, President of Phoenix Law Enforcement Association, recently talked about the issue on Horizonte.

José Cárdenas:
Randy, let's start with the current status of the initiative in terms of the signatures, what's going to happen and then I want to talk about what it actually does.

Randy Pullen:
Sure. Right now we have 15,052 signatures that were verified by the city clerk as valid. And the requirement was for 14,844. So we're over the requirement at this point it's been certified by the clerk and it's also been put on the ballot for November by the City Council. We are expecting it will be legal challenges to it. I already know that groups have taken copies of the signatures and are now checking those signatures, re-verifying the City Clerk's work.

José Cárdenas:
As I understand -- did you actually turn in 21,000 signatures total? That's the number that you see in the paper.

Randy Pullen:
Actually turned in about 23,000 by the end together, which is almost just 100 under or so.

José Cárdenas:
Tell us what the initiative actually does.

Randy Pullen:
Well, what the initiative actually does is essentially requires city agencies, officials and the police departments specifically to cooperate with immigration authorities. And it reverses a current order that's called 1.4.3 in the Phoenix Police Department that basically prohibits officers from contacting or cooperating with immigration authorities. And so it would do away with that order. It would allow in fact police officers to talk with and cooperate with ICE, which is immigration authorities in the United States.

José Cárdenas:
Now you see references to Phoenix as a sanctuary city. Is that the basis for that designation?

Randy Pullen:
That's correct. That special order 1.4.3 is equivalent of special order 40 in Los Angeles which is where it originally came from and it's probably 20 other major cities around the country. It's typically known as a sanctuary city.

José Cárdenas:
Now you've described, what is I understand the first part of the initiative in terms of allowing the sharing of information. The second half deals with entering into memorandum of understanding with Homeland Security. Tell us about that.

Randy Pullen:
Correct. Well, in order to act as immigration, effective immigration authorities, in other words be able to detain, check the status of an alien and in fact hold them for deportation, you in fact have to have an agreement with ICE, with Homeland Security. So this would require the city to enter into such an agreement with Homeland Security.

José Cárdenas:
Jake, the specific policy, the 1.4.3, what's the genesis of that? Why do we have it?

Jake Jacobsen:
Basically it helps us prioritize which emergency service we're going to respond to. And in essence, it's not a prohibition but it directs us don't make this your sole focus of contact.

Randy Pullen:
They are prohibited. It definitely says they are prohibited from doing that. There's no question about doing that.

José Cárdenas:
Prohibited from sharing information about immigration status?

Randy Pullen:
Yes.

José Cárdenas: With who?

Randy Pullen:
Homeland security, immigration authorities. Federal authorities.

José Cárdenas:
Is that your understanding, Jake, of the scope?


Jake Jacobsen:
In essence the prohibition is not designed to keep information from ICE but to keep the flow of information from the Hispanic community coming to the police department.

José Cárdenas:
Why is that?

Jake Jacobsen:
So we can be trusted. These are the eyes and ears of a great portion of our public out there whether they're illegal or not. There are a great many of them -- most of them are citizens of our country. And this order directs us not as specifically to go out and take on immigration issues. And quite honestly it's there to keep the flow of information coming from the Hispanic population.

Randy Pullen:
There's no facts to back that up. In fact, the facts are that crimes cleared, violent crimes cleared in Phoenix, the Hispanic community has about half the rate of the population in general in Phoenix. So in fact you're not getting much information from the Hispanic community, anyway. So to think that somehow by checking their immigration status is going to cause them to cooperate even less, I mean, that's ludicrous. There's no support for that.

José Cárdenas:
What's the clearance rate that you're referring to?

Randy Pullen:
The clearance rate for violent crimes in Phoenix essentially the clearance rate for Hispanic crimes where a Hispanic is involved is somewhere around 30, 31\%.

Jake Jacobsen:
As a victim or suspect?

Randy Pullen:
As a victim. Crimes involving Hispanics -- it doesn't matter. Crimes involving Hispanics would be a victim. Less than half of those compared to the overall rate are cleared. So that indicates that - and unless you want to make the argument that it's Whites doing most crime on Hispanics, which I don't believe is the case. It's usually Hispanics on Hispanics. They're not cooperating near to the degree that the rest of the community is cooperating.

José Cárdenas:
But isn't there a fear that they would cooperate even less? Is that the concern, Jake?

Jake Jacobsen: Absolutely. Some six years ago the city and department invested some $60,000 through Hispanic media relations people to contact the Hispanic community and let them know upfront we're more interested in solving your crimes and protecting you as potential victims or victims. Please come forward and share with us information that can help put criminals behind bars.

Randy Pullen:
That apparently doesn't work because they don't report the crimes.

José Cárdenas:
Jake, your organization is opposed to this particular initiative, is that right?

Jake Jacobsen:
Yes, sir, we are.

José Cárdenas:
Why is that?

Jake Jacobsen:
Well, you have to understand as a police officer we understand probably more so than the general public that illegal immigration is a very serious problem. There's no doubt about that. Our officers know that. What we have to make the public understand is we're a very finite resource. There's a very limited amount of officers. Of the just under 1500 rank and file officers that do first responder patrol work, on any given shift there's probably 300 or less actually out on the street. Three shifts, six precincts and so on. We have to prioritize what we respond to. The calls for service come in at a phenomenal rate. And I don't see our officers wanting to spend their time stopping someone and checking purely on their immigration status and then be required to detain them, which takes several hours as opposed to responding to true emergency calls.

Randy Pullen:
Well, you know, they say that but in fact last year the City of Phoenix made over 21,000 misdemeanor arrests in the city of Phoenix. And that's much higher than the felony arrests that were made. So if I would say they have the time to do 21,000 misdemeanor arrests they should be able to find a little bit of time to arrest an illegal alien now and then who has probably not only committed a misdemeanor being in the country, but is probably has false ID on them, likely to have that which is a felony. If they have some sort of a weapon or gun on them, that's a felony to have that with them.

José Cárdenas:
Because of their immigration status.

Randy Pullen:
Absolutely. Because of their status. That's correct.

Jake Jacobsen:
I think that you'll find from the misdemeanor arrests that Mr. Pullman is referring to, a great majority of those are warrant arrests, those issued by a court for failure to show up for one particular crime probation violations, whatever they might be. Yes, we will pick those up, process those prisoners in the jail. Those are misdemeanor arrests based mostly on warrants.

Randy Pullen:
Do you have facts? What are the facts on that? Do you have the numbers?

Jake Jacobsen:
Probably more readily available than yours.

José Cárdenas:
Let me ask this question, Randy. By its terms the second initiative requires the city to enter into a memorandum of understanding with Homeland Security. And that means that they would designate a number of officers to then have the ability to process immigration-related matters.

Randy Pullen:
Correct.

José Cárdenas:
How does this then effect the city of Phoenix police personnel who are not so designated and what would they do differently, assuming this passes than they do now?

Randy Pullen:
Well, without operations order 1.4.3 which basically prohibits them from cooperating or passing information on to ICE, they essentially have the right already under U.S. law, which is not even questionable at this point in time, to -- if they stop someone for probable cause for any sort of a crime and they start talking to them they can at that point ask them questions about their immigration status and what country they are from. And if they don't get what they believe are proper answers to that they have the ability right now to detain them.

José Cárdenas:
And should they choose not to do that, what would happen?

Randy Pullen:
If they choose not to detain them and let them go?

José Cárdenas:
Yes.

Randy Pullen:
Well, at that instant nothing would happen to them. But there's always the possibility that if in fact that they're not doing what this proposition requires, which is basically to cooperate and work with ICE to help solve immigration, illegal immigration problem here then they could be open to a lawsuit filed by an individual or by another group.

Jake Jacobsen:
So you're going to sue a police officer who picks up someone solely because they're in the country without proper documentation and yet chooses not to do anything with them because he's going to roll on an emergency call, a violent family fight, maybe a child found in a swimming pool, and you're going to sue a police officer for not enforcing this proposition?

Randy Pullen:
No.

Jake Jacobsen:
You told us that off camera. You told us that you would sue us if we didn't follow this.

Randy Pullen:
I said that you could do that. Let's point something out here. You as a Phoenix police officer, you take an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, Arizona and enforce the laws.

Jake Jacobsen: -
-Of the state of Arizona and the city of Phoenix.

Randy Pullen:
And that's a law and if you're not enforcing the law-- If this becomes law you should enforce that law. If you don't enforce it, well then you're not doing your job.

Jake Jacobsen:
Let's take it one step farther--

Randy Pullen:
You would also be subject to being-

Jake Jacobsen:
I pick up someone and I determine he doesn't have proper identification, he can't prove he's a citizen of the United States and I take him down and spend three or four hours processing him into the county jail which currently costs the citizens of the city of Phoenix $164 for everybody we wagon into that jail. Now in the month of July we arrested 1864 people. $299,000 the city of Phoenix spent housing prisoners in Sheriff Joe's jail. And of all of those people, they were criminals. They weren't picked up because they were here illegally, okay? What do you think the numbers might be if we devoted our time and resources and the citizens of Phoenix tax dollars into spending a minimum of $164 a day knowing on the backside is the immigration and custom enforcement service going to pick them up and take them off our hand? No. Sheriff Joe arrested 284 people a couple of month ago, made a big deal in the press about it. He managed to wrangle 50 or 60--

Randy Pullen:
He has no MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) with Homeland Security--

Jake Jacobsen:
He did it on his own because he realized immigration is an illegal problem.

Randy Pullen:
But he has no agreement with Homeland Security. That's why I'm saying they need to have an MOU--

Jake Jacobsen:
He got convictions on 16 or 17 of those people.

José Cárdenas:
Let me ask this question.

Randy Pullen:
Let me answer his question.

Jake Jacobsen:
16 or 17 people were convicted, but we had to let them go.
Randy Pullen: So what you're saying is that if there's a cost associated with dealing with illegal immigration in this country, that we can't afford that and we shouldn't do that, there for we're not going to enforce that law. Is that what you're telling me, Jake? It's not worth enforcing the law?

Jake Jacobsen:
What I'm telling you is let's spend that money--

Randy Pullen:
So which other laws don't you want to enforce?

Jake Jacobsen: -
-On housing violent criminals.

Randy Pullen:
Which other laws don't you want to enforce?

José Cárdenas:
Randy, let Jake answer your question now. You had your turn.

Jake Jacobsen: Let's spend that money incarcerating violent criminals. Not the person standing on the corner whose only crime is standing here being without the proper paperwork. No crime other than standing here looking for a little employment. Now does the citizens of Phoenix going to spend their money on that--

Randy Pullen:
Now let me just point out that the former chief of police of Phoenix--

Jake Jacobsen: -
-Or maybe picking up the serial shooters or maybe picking up the burglars.

Randy Pullen: --
The former chief of police of Phoenix-I've heard this and other people have heard him say this: attributed 80\% of violent crime to illegal aliens--

Jake Jacobsen:
And when you pinned him down he couldn't produce the figures.

Randy Pullen: --
That is not exactly a small problem. That's a big problem. But I'm willing to take his opinion--

José Cárdenas:
Gentlemen, if we all speak at the same time nobody is going to be able to hear.

Jake Jacobsen:
When you pinned him down, he couldn't produce the figures. He spoke out of school.

José Cárdenas:
We're talking about Chief Hurtt, is that right?

Jake Jacobsen:
That's true.

José Cárdenas:
Randy, other than Chief Hurtt--

Randy Pullen:
I wouldn't say that if he didn't have a pretty good feeling that that's what was going on.

Jake Jacobsen:
He couldn't back it up; he had to take it back.

Randy Pullen:
Let me back that up by saying that 95\%-- and this is a fact. Or excuse me, 95\% of arrest warrants out for murder in Los Angeles are illegal aliens is who they're looking for. Two-thirds--these are L.A. City's numbers -- two-thirds of outstanding warrant for arrests for violent crimes in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

Jake Jacobsen:
Then take your initiative to Los Angeles.

Randy Pullen:
We have the same problem here. You just don't document the numbers in Phoenix.

José Cárdenas: Now Randy, the only official analysis I've seen of the rising crime rate -- and there is a rising crime rate in Phoenix -- does not make that connection that you're talking about. It says the most you can determine is that the city has grown and the crime has grown and they don't know what the relationship is among the various factors.

Randy Pullen:
Well, let's point to first of all there is a report not too long ago in the "Arizona Republic" that Phoenix is the human trafficking center of the United States. Now, I would venture to say that that is being done by illegal aliens and crime gangs out of Mexico are getting them across the borders. Coyotes, we know where that's coming from. We know that in fact that the drugs coming across the border, which are being transported through Phoenix and then distributed around the country is coming because of the same issue. It's coming across the border with illegal aliens at the same time. They're the mules that bring it across. So what we have is -- I don't think there's anybody that's going to refute that this is a problem that revolves around the illegal alien problem we have here in Arizona.

José Cárdenas:
You and Russell Pearce appeared recently on the Lou Dobbs show. And he was quoted as saying that Phoenix is ranking as number one in crime was directly related to what he called an illegal alien invasion. Sounds like he's going a little bit further than you? Is that right? You would tie it to specific types of crimes?

Randy Pullen:
The statistics aren't being kept obviously. But I would tend to believe that I agree with Russell Pearce that there is a violent crime problem in Arizona, in Phoenix, that I think could be attributed to illegal aliens just like the problem in Los Angeles is attributed to illegal aliens right now. We don't have the statistics here but if we had the statistics I'd be willing to bet that they'd be relatively close.

José Cárdenas:
Jake?

Jake Jacobsen:
It can't be proven. This is being played on emotions. We understand that illegal immigration is a very serious problem. It's a very serious federal problem. And now the federal government because they are unwilling or unable to take proper steps to secure our borders are trying to force this on local jurisdictions. Local police officers that are here to protect the citizens of Phoenix from the most violent of human nature. There are no statistics that say that any portion of that, high or low, is attributed purely to illegal immigration. That's just bogus. It can't be shown.

Randy Pullen:
I'm amazed-

Jake Jacobsen:
It is a serious problem. We know that. Our officers know that. They see it daily. This is not the solution. To take our officers, already a limited resource, off the street and away from responding to the most violent of issues, the calls immediately need for service, to focus purely on someone who's there without the proper documentation is not the way to solve the problem.

José Cárdenas:
What is the way to solve the problem?

Jake Jacobsen:
Until we secure the borders. You can't expect me to empty the bucket unless somebody turns off the spigot. Secure the borders. Don't have us pay for half of a round trip ticket back to Mexico just to have them come back across the border. -

Randy Pullen:
You know, that's such a simplistic answer.

Jake Jacobsen:
It is redundant and it is a revolving door.

Randy Pullen:
That is a totally simplistic answer. And I am surprised you would still lay out the old saw about the federal government's responsibility. Because it's very clear under the 1996 Illegal
Immigration Reform Act. They intended for local law enforcement to be associated, involved with enforcement immigration laws. That's always been the facts. That's always been the way to solve the problem

Jake Jacobsen:
Can you change ICE's response to this issue?

Randy Pullen:
What you're saying is until we secure the border we can't do anything. Well that's not an acceptable answer to the voters of Phoenix.

Jake Jacobsen:
Can you change the immigration and custom enforcement's response to this initiative? If this initiative passes and our officers are mandated under threat of being sued to go out and start picking up people suspected of being here illegally, is it going to change the response of the immigration and custom enforcement service? We can book them all day long, Mr. Pullen, they're not going to take them off our hands.

Randy Pullen:
Well how do you know that?

Jake Jacobsen:
Mr. Sheriff Arpaio is going to open the door and let them out the back door.

Randy Pullen:
He doesn't have an MOU with the federal government. You have to get an MOU.

Jake Jacobsen:
Read ICE's policy on who they will come out and pick up.

Randy Pullen:
You don't know what you're talking about. You do not know what--

Jake Jacobsen:
Read ICE's policy. Murders, rapes, the high-- kind of the FBI top six list. Those are the ones they will come out and do. Now you mentioned coyotes. We will arrest coyotes at drop houses all day long because they are criminals in human smuggling.

Michael Grant:
Thank you very much for joining us on this Wednesday evening on Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by contributions from the friend of eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Protect Our City


  • A group that wants to require Phoenix police officers and other city employees to enforce federal immigration laws has collected enough signatures to put the measure to a public vote. Randy Pullen, chairman of Protect Our City and Jake Jacobsen, president of the Phoenix Law Enforcement Association weigh in on the issue.
Guests:
  • Randy Pullen - Chairman, Protect Our City
  • Jake Jacobsen - President, Phoenix Law Enforcement Association
Category: Immigration

View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on Horizon we continue the week long series on education. We'll talk about Arizona teachers' current salary, where it ranks nationally. And an initiative that would require the City of Phoenix to enforce federal immigration laws. We'll take a look at Proposition 405. That's next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by contributions from the friends of Eight. Members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening, welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Teacher salary, a much talked about topic. Governor Napolitano considered it a priority in this year's budget negotiations. Nadine Arroyo gives us a glimpse at Arizona's teachers' pay raise.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Let's give a pay raise to every teacher in Arizona.

Nadine Arroyo:
In her 2006 State-of-the-State address, Governor Napolitano introduced several initiatives under the budget plan to improve teacher salaries. She proposed increasing teacher minimum base pay to $30,000 and giving all teachers a pay raise. By summer, after much negotiations, the governor and legislature came to an agreement. The allocated $100,000 in funds to boost teacher pay throughout the state. But is it enough? In today's education system when class size increases more and more each year greater numbers of statewide exams are administered and language is a barrier, teachers are expected to not only teach but also stay in par with increased professional demands. Surveys conducted by the American federation of teachers shows that in the last decade or so Arizona's average teacher salary is about $43,000. But the starting salary for a new teacher is 28,000. The 2005 study also shows that Arizona ranks 26th in the nation for teacher pay where the increase in average salary was lower than the national rate of inflation. Arizona legislators agree that pay raise is important, but some say only when it is earned. In other words, contingent on student performance. But many experts say increased teacher salary does not automatically constitute students achieving higher grade marks. It's the quality of the teacher. Another study conducted at the University of Missouri concluded teachers are paid quite fairly. They work 38-weeks a year, and like the students, have Spring and Fall breaks and are off on holidays. But some may disagree. In Arizona many teachers take second jobs to stay afloat. So could teacher pay be the reason for a shortage of teachers? Some experts say yes. Others say it's the state's fast-paced growth. And many agree, salary rates most often fail to reflect the professional qualifications and preparations teachers must endure.

Michael Grant:
The $100 million allocated for teacher pay raise under the 2007 budget has been distributed to Arizona school districts. Each district decided how those funds would be distributed as of July 1 of this year assuming the district decided that way teachers across the state received their raise. Teacher pay of course an ongoing issue in Arizona for many years, historically Arizona teachers have been paid below the national average while student growth in Arizona ranks among the fastest in the country. As a retrospective, let's take a look at a previous story from Producer Merry Lucero about the financial struggles teachers have faced.

Merry Lucero:
How rare are people who devote their lives to a career knowing they will be paid a fraction of their worth? Not as rare as you might think. They are thousands of Arizona teachers. Teachers like Ann Rifleman who with a Master's degree and 24-years in the same career has annual earnings in the high 40's and still struggles to make ends meet.

Ann Rifleman:
Living paycheck to paycheck is still a reality even after 24 years. It's difficult to save. I don't really have retirement on my screen right now, but I know it's ahead of me. And saving for that has been really difficult and has had to have a lot of planning. And I worry about what it's going to be like if I'm retired or if I'll ever be able to afford to retire.

Merry Lucero:
Donna Delgado has only been teaching for a year and is barely surviving on her income. She's a single mother of four and is still paying off her student loans.

Donna Delgado:
Well, it's kind of ironic that I'm part of the working poor. And I would like to, you know, not only be compensated for what I think is an important job but to be able to at least pay my basic bills and when I supply things in my classroom, to not have to choose between do I buy supplies for my classroom or do I put food on the table this week and how to do that balancing act for just the very basic essentials of life.

Merry Lucero:
Dr. Billie Enz heads the office that places teachers from ASU's College of Education. She says with starting salaries between 24 and $27,000 a year fewer graduates are entering the profession.

Billie Enz:
We had several students last year who graduated from our program with teaching degrees. And between the time the district was able to offer them a contract, they were offered other jobs working in businesses. They started at $29,000 and this year, at the end of their first year, they're going to be receiving a 4 to $5,000 bonus.

Merry Lucero:
Enz says the meager pay is also forcing current teachers to leave.

Billie Enz:
It takes about 5 to 7 years for a teacher to really reach full maturity as a strong professional. It's not something that you come out just ready to do. It's like a doctor. It takes time to practice that skill. It takes time to practice your craft. In the meantime, with the salaries being so low, they begin to get very discouraged. And so it just adds to their need leaving which adds to the teacher shortage.

Ann Rifleman:
People say go find another job. That's what's happening right now. People are retiring earlier and earlier because they can. They've been in the field as long as I have and they're eligible to retire and they're bailing and they're not going off to play golf. They're getting jobs that pay high so they have enough money to live on in retirement.

Merry Lucero:
There are some opportunities for extra income like running this after school program but teachers must take professional development classes and spend time after school preparing for course work and grading papers. So there is no time for a second job. And while most agree that teachers need a pay increase, the arguments are over how much and how to fund it. Attaching teacher salaries to student achievement has been suggested.

Billie Enz:
It is unfair to tie teacher salary to children's performance. Children in high needs areas are going to be performing lowly regardless of the effort and the energy the teacher puts into it.

Merry Lucero:
At the state Capitol, legislation to give teachers a raise has been introduced but will lawmakers pass it?

Ann Rifleman:
I've been a teacher for 24-years in a public school system. I have nothing but skepticism for the state legislature. And I've spent a lot of my time talking to my local legislators about the importance of public education and their investment. And they haven't been listening. And I'm frankly pretty disgusted with it, as are many of my colleagues.

Michael Grant:
Since that story originally aired, programs such as proceeds from Indian gaming have increased teacher pay. Proposition 301 of course implemented in the 2001-2002 school year, it increased the sales tax to put more money into education. Now at about $350 million a year, more than 90\% goes to teacher salaries and benefits among other teacher items. The Protect Our City initiative known as Proposition 405 would amend the Phoenix City charter to require all officials agencies and all personnel of the City of Phoenix to cooperate with and help federal authorities in enforcing immigration laws. The Phoenix City Council voted last week to put that initiative on the city's November ballot for voter approval assuming it survives a court challenge. Randy Pullen, Chairman of Protect Our City, and Jake Jacobsen, President of Phoenix Law Enforcement Association, recently talked about the issue on Horizonte.

José Cárdenas:
Randy, let's start with the current status of the initiative in terms of the signatures, what's going to happen and then I want to talk about what it actually does.

Randy Pullen:
Sure. Right now we have 15,052 signatures that were verified by the city clerk as valid. And the requirement was for 14,844. So we're over the requirement at this point it's been certified by the clerk and it's also been put on the ballot for November by the City Council. We are expecting it will be legal challenges to it. I already know that groups have taken copies of the signatures and are now checking those signatures, re-verifying the City Clerk's work.

José Cárdenas:
As I understand -- did you actually turn in 21,000 signatures total? That's the number that you see in the paper.

Randy Pullen:
Actually turned in about 23,000 by the end together, which is almost just 100 under or so.

José Cárdenas:
Tell us what the initiative actually does.

Randy Pullen:
Well, what the initiative actually does is essentially requires city agencies, officials and the police departments specifically to cooperate with immigration authorities. And it reverses a current order that's called 1.4.3 in the Phoenix Police Department that basically prohibits officers from contacting or cooperating with immigration authorities. And so it would do away with that order. It would allow in fact police officers to talk with and cooperate with ICE, which is immigration authorities in the United States.

José Cárdenas:
Now you see references to Phoenix as a sanctuary city. Is that the basis for that designation?

Randy Pullen:
That's correct. That special order 1.4.3 is equivalent of special order 40 in Los Angeles which is where it originally came from and it's probably 20 other major cities around the country. It's typically known as a sanctuary city.

José Cárdenas:
Now you've described, what is I understand the first part of the initiative in terms of allowing the sharing of information. The second half deals with entering into memorandum of understanding with Homeland Security. Tell us about that.

Randy Pullen:
Correct. Well, in order to act as immigration, effective immigration authorities, in other words be able to detain, check the status of an alien and in fact hold them for deportation, you in fact have to have an agreement with ICE, with Homeland Security. So this would require the city to enter into such an agreement with Homeland Security.

José Cárdenas:
Jake, the specific policy, the 1.4.3, what's the genesis of that? Why do we have it?

Jake Jacobsen:
Basically it helps us prioritize which emergency service we're going to respond to. And in essence, it's not a prohibition but it directs us don't make this your sole focus of contact.

Randy Pullen:
They are prohibited. It definitely says they are prohibited from doing that. There's no question about doing that.

José Cárdenas:
Prohibited from sharing information about immigration status?

Randy Pullen:
Yes.

José Cárdenas: With who?

Randy Pullen:
Homeland security, immigration authorities. Federal authorities.

José Cárdenas:
Is that your understanding, Jake, of the scope?


Jake Jacobsen:
In essence the prohibition is not designed to keep information from ICE but to keep the flow of information from the Hispanic community coming to the police department.

José Cárdenas:
Why is that?

Jake Jacobsen:
So we can be trusted. These are the eyes and ears of a great portion of our public out there whether they're illegal or not. There are a great many of them -- most of them are citizens of our country. And this order directs us not as specifically to go out and take on immigration issues. And quite honestly it's there to keep the flow of information coming from the Hispanic population.

Randy Pullen:
There's no facts to back that up. In fact, the facts are that crimes cleared, violent crimes cleared in Phoenix, the Hispanic community has about half the rate of the population in general in Phoenix. So in fact you're not getting much information from the Hispanic community, anyway. So to think that somehow by checking their immigration status is going to cause them to cooperate even less, I mean, that's ludicrous. There's no support for that.

José Cárdenas:
What's the clearance rate that you're referring to?

Randy Pullen:
The clearance rate for violent crimes in Phoenix essentially the clearance rate for Hispanic crimes where a Hispanic is involved is somewhere around 30, 31\%.

Jake Jacobsen:
As a victim or suspect?

Randy Pullen:
As a victim. Crimes involving Hispanics -- it doesn't matter. Crimes involving Hispanics would be a victim. Less than half of those compared to the overall rate are cleared. So that indicates that - and unless you want to make the argument that it's Whites doing most crime on Hispanics, which I don't believe is the case. It's usually Hispanics on Hispanics. They're not cooperating near to the degree that the rest of the community is cooperating.

José Cárdenas:
But isn't there a fear that they would cooperate even less? Is that the concern, Jake?

Jake Jacobsen: Absolutely. Some six years ago the city and department invested some $60,000 through Hispanic media relations people to contact the Hispanic community and let them know upfront we're more interested in solving your crimes and protecting you as potential victims or victims. Please come forward and share with us information that can help put criminals behind bars.

Randy Pullen:
That apparently doesn't work because they don't report the crimes.

José Cárdenas:
Jake, your organization is opposed to this particular initiative, is that right?

Jake Jacobsen:
Yes, sir, we are.

José Cárdenas:
Why is that?

Jake Jacobsen:
Well, you have to understand as a police officer we understand probably more so than the general public that illegal immigration is a very serious problem. There's no doubt about that. Our officers know that. What we have to make the public understand is we're a very finite resource. There's a very limited amount of officers. Of the just under 1500 rank and file officers that do first responder patrol work, on any given shift there's probably 300 or less actually out on the street. Three shifts, six precincts and so on. We have to prioritize what we respond to. The calls for service come in at a phenomenal rate. And I don't see our officers wanting to spend their time stopping someone and checking purely on their immigration status and then be required to detain them, which takes several hours as opposed to responding to true emergency calls.

Randy Pullen:
Well, you know, they say that but in fact last year the City of Phoenix made over 21,000 misdemeanor arrests in the city of Phoenix. And that's much higher than the felony arrests that were made. So if I would say they have the time to do 21,000 misdemeanor arrests they should be able to find a little bit of time to arrest an illegal alien now and then who has probably not only committed a misdemeanor being in the country, but is probably has false ID on them, likely to have that which is a felony. If they have some sort of a weapon or gun on them, that's a felony to have that with them.

José Cárdenas:
Because of their immigration status.

Randy Pullen:
Absolutely. Because of their status. That's correct.

Jake Jacobsen:
I think that you'll find from the misdemeanor arrests that Mr. Pullman is referring to, a great majority of those are warrant arrests, those issued by a court for failure to show up for one particular crime probation violations, whatever they might be. Yes, we will pick those up, process those prisoners in the jail. Those are misdemeanor arrests based mostly on warrants.

Randy Pullen:
Do you have facts? What are the facts on that? Do you have the numbers?

Jake Jacobsen:
Probably more readily available than yours.

José Cárdenas:
Let me ask this question, Randy. By its terms the second initiative requires the city to enter into a memorandum of understanding with Homeland Security. And that means that they would designate a number of officers to then have the ability to process immigration-related matters.

Randy Pullen:
Correct.

José Cárdenas:
How does this then effect the city of Phoenix police personnel who are not so designated and what would they do differently, assuming this passes than they do now?

Randy Pullen:
Well, without operations order 1.4.3 which basically prohibits them from cooperating or passing information on to ICE, they essentially have the right already under U.S. law, which is not even questionable at this point in time, to -- if they stop someone for probable cause for any sort of a crime and they start talking to them they can at that point ask them questions about their immigration status and what country they are from. And if they don't get what they believe are proper answers to that they have the ability right now to detain them.

José Cárdenas:
And should they choose not to do that, what would happen?

Randy Pullen:
If they choose not to detain them and let them go?

José Cárdenas:
Yes.

Randy Pullen:
Well, at that instant nothing would happen to them. But there's always the possibility that if in fact that they're not doing what this proposition requires, which is basically to cooperate and work with ICE to help solve immigration, illegal immigration problem here then they could be open to a lawsuit filed by an individual or by another group.

Jake Jacobsen:
So you're going to sue a police officer who picks up someone solely because they're in the country without proper documentation and yet chooses not to do anything with them because he's going to roll on an emergency call, a violent family fight, maybe a child found in a swimming pool, and you're going to sue a police officer for not enforcing this proposition?

Randy Pullen:
No.

Jake Jacobsen:
You told us that off camera. You told us that you would sue us if we didn't follow this.

Randy Pullen:
I said that you could do that. Let's point something out here. You as a Phoenix police officer, you take an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States, Arizona and enforce the laws.

Jake Jacobsen: -
-Of the state of Arizona and the city of Phoenix.

Randy Pullen:
And that's a law and if you're not enforcing the law-- If this becomes law you should enforce that law. If you don't enforce it, well then you're not doing your job.

Jake Jacobsen:
Let's take it one step farther--

Randy Pullen:
You would also be subject to being-

Jake Jacobsen:
I pick up someone and I determine he doesn't have proper identification, he can't prove he's a citizen of the United States and I take him down and spend three or four hours processing him into the county jail which currently costs the citizens of the city of Phoenix $164 for everybody we wagon into that jail. Now in the month of July we arrested 1864 people. $299,000 the city of Phoenix spent housing prisoners in Sheriff Joe's jail. And of all of those people, they were criminals. They weren't picked up because they were here illegally, okay? What do you think the numbers might be if we devoted our time and resources and the citizens of Phoenix tax dollars into spending a minimum of $164 a day knowing on the backside is the immigration and custom enforcement service going to pick them up and take them off our hand? No. Sheriff Joe arrested 284 people a couple of month ago, made a big deal in the press about it. He managed to wrangle 50 or 60--

Randy Pullen:
He has no MOU (Memorandum of Understanding) with Homeland Security--

Jake Jacobsen:
He did it on his own because he realized immigration is an illegal problem.

Randy Pullen:
But he has no agreement with Homeland Security. That's why I'm saying they need to have an MOU--

Jake Jacobsen:
He got convictions on 16 or 17 of those people.

José Cárdenas:
Let me ask this question.

Randy Pullen:
Let me answer his question.

Jake Jacobsen:
16 or 17 people were convicted, but we had to let them go.
Randy Pullen: So what you're saying is that if there's a cost associated with dealing with illegal immigration in this country, that we can't afford that and we shouldn't do that, there for we're not going to enforce that law. Is that what you're telling me, Jake? It's not worth enforcing the law?

Jake Jacobsen:
What I'm telling you is let's spend that money--

Randy Pullen:
So which other laws don't you want to enforce?

Jake Jacobsen: -
-On housing violent criminals.

Randy Pullen:
Which other laws don't you want to enforce?

José Cárdenas:
Randy, let Jake answer your question now. You had your turn.

Jake Jacobsen: Let's spend that money incarcerating violent criminals. Not the person standing on the corner whose only crime is standing here being without the proper paperwork. No crime other than standing here looking for a little employment. Now does the citizens of Phoenix going to spend their money on that--

Randy Pullen:
Now let me just point out that the former chief of police of Phoenix--

Jake Jacobsen: -
-Or maybe picking up the serial shooters or maybe picking up the burglars.

Randy Pullen: --
The former chief of police of Phoenix-I've heard this and other people have heard him say this: attributed 80\% of violent crime to illegal aliens--

Jake Jacobsen:
And when you pinned him down he couldn't produce the figures.

Randy Pullen: --
That is not exactly a small problem. That's a big problem. But I'm willing to take his opinion--

José Cárdenas:
Gentlemen, if we all speak at the same time nobody is going to be able to hear.

Jake Jacobsen:
When you pinned him down, he couldn't produce the figures. He spoke out of school.

José Cárdenas:
We're talking about Chief Hurtt, is that right?

Jake Jacobsen:
That's true.

José Cárdenas:
Randy, other than Chief Hurtt--

Randy Pullen:
I wouldn't say that if he didn't have a pretty good feeling that that's what was going on.

Jake Jacobsen:
He couldn't back it up; he had to take it back.

Randy Pullen:
Let me back that up by saying that 95\%-- and this is a fact. Or excuse me, 95\% of arrest warrants out for murder in Los Angeles are illegal aliens is who they're looking for. Two-thirds--these are L.A. City's numbers -- two-thirds of outstanding warrant for arrests for violent crimes in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

Jake Jacobsen:
Then take your initiative to Los Angeles.

Randy Pullen:
We have the same problem here. You just don't document the numbers in Phoenix.

José Cárdenas: Now Randy, the only official analysis I've seen of the rising crime rate -- and there is a rising crime rate in Phoenix -- does not make that connection that you're talking about. It says the most you can determine is that the city has grown and the crime has grown and they don't know what the relationship is among the various factors.

Randy Pullen:
Well, let's point to first of all there is a report not too long ago in the "Arizona Republic" that Phoenix is the human trafficking center of the United States. Now, I would venture to say that that is being done by illegal aliens and crime gangs out of Mexico are getting them across the borders. Coyotes, we know where that's coming from. We know that in fact that the drugs coming across the border, which are being transported through Phoenix and then distributed around the country is coming because of the same issue. It's coming across the border with illegal aliens at the same time. They're the mules that bring it across. So what we have is -- I don't think there's anybody that's going to refute that this is a problem that revolves around the illegal alien problem we have here in Arizona.

José Cárdenas:
You and Russell Pearce appeared recently on the Lou Dobbs show. And he was quoted as saying that Phoenix is ranking as number one in crime was directly related to what he called an illegal alien invasion. Sounds like he's going a little bit further than you? Is that right? You would tie it to specific types of crimes?

Randy Pullen:
The statistics aren't being kept obviously. But I would tend to believe that I agree with Russell Pearce that there is a violent crime problem in Arizona, in Phoenix, that I think could be attributed to illegal aliens just like the problem in Los Angeles is attributed to illegal aliens right now. We don't have the statistics here but if we had the statistics I'd be willing to bet that they'd be relatively close.

José Cárdenas:
Jake?

Jake Jacobsen:
It can't be proven. This is being played on emotions. We understand that illegal immigration is a very serious problem. It's a very serious federal problem. And now the federal government because they are unwilling or unable to take proper steps to secure our borders are trying to force this on local jurisdictions. Local police officers that are here to protect the citizens of Phoenix from the most violent of human nature. There are no statistics that say that any portion of that, high or low, is attributed purely to illegal immigration. That's just bogus. It can't be shown.

Randy Pullen:
I'm amazed-

Jake Jacobsen:
It is a serious problem. We know that. Our officers know that. They see it daily. This is not the solution. To take our officers, already a limited resource, off the street and away from responding to the most violent of issues, the calls immediately need for service, to focus purely on someone who's there without the proper documentation is not the way to solve the problem.

José Cárdenas:
What is the way to solve the problem?

Jake Jacobsen:
Until we secure the borders. You can't expect me to empty the bucket unless somebody turns off the spigot. Secure the borders. Don't have us pay for half of a round trip ticket back to Mexico just to have them come back across the border. -

Randy Pullen:
You know, that's such a simplistic answer.

Jake Jacobsen:
It is redundant and it is a revolving door.

Randy Pullen:
That is a totally simplistic answer. And I am surprised you would still lay out the old saw about the federal government's responsibility. Because it's very clear under the 1996 Illegal
Immigration Reform Act. They intended for local law enforcement to be associated, involved with enforcement immigration laws. That's always been the facts. That's always been the way to solve the problem

Jake Jacobsen:
Can you change ICE's response to this issue?

Randy Pullen:
What you're saying is until we secure the border we can't do anything. Well that's not an acceptable answer to the voters of Phoenix.

Jake Jacobsen:
Can you change the immigration and custom enforcement's response to this initiative? If this initiative passes and our officers are mandated under threat of being sued to go out and start picking up people suspected of being here illegally, is it going to change the response of the immigration and custom enforcement service? We can book them all day long, Mr. Pullen, they're not going to take them off our hands.

Randy Pullen:
Well how do you know that?

Jake Jacobsen:
Mr. Sheriff Arpaio is going to open the door and let them out the back door.

Randy Pullen:
He doesn't have an MOU with the federal government. You have to get an MOU.

Jake Jacobsen:
Read ICE's policy on who they will come out and pick up.

Randy Pullen:
You don't know what you're talking about. You do not know what--

Jake Jacobsen:
Read ICE's policy. Murders, rapes, the high-- kind of the FBI top six list. Those are the ones they will come out and do. Now you mentioned coyotes. We will arrest coyotes at drop houses all day long because they are criminals in human smuggling.

Michael Grant:
Thank you very much for joining us on this Wednesday evening on Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

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Horizon is made possible by contributions from the friend of eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

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