Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

May 31, 2005


Host: Michael Grant

Native American education


  • For over a century, attempts to meet the educational needs of Native American students have been unsuccessful and despite legislation and numerous government programs, much still needs to be done. We'll look back at Native American education and what some educational facilities are doing now.
Guests:
  • Terry Goddard - Arizona Attorney General
  • Tom Horne - Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction
  • Ken Bennett - Senate President


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon", apparent evidence that children from Mexico are crossing the border to attend Arizona schools. A look at Native American education and what's being done to improve it. And Republican legislators are fuming over the governor's vetoes. Those stories are coming up.

>> "Horizon" is made possible by the Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon". An investigation conducted by the Arizona Department of Education has turned up video apparently showing children crossing the Mexican border to attend school in Arizona. We'll show excerpts from that video later in the program. But first, the latest on the Colorado City Unified School District. Joining us to talk about that, the Arizona Attorney General, Terry Goddard, and the Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction, Tom Horne. Gentlemen, thanks for coming.

>> Terri Goddard:
Good to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, why the search warrant last week on Colorado City?

>> Terry Goddard:
a number of reasons but one of the primary was to make sure that when the new law that establishes a receivership for school districts that are in serious financial trouble goes in effect on August 12, we want to make sure all the records are available, assuming the board of education a points as we will petition them to do, a points a receiver for this financially troubled district, we want to make sure the records are there and the receiver is able to start with everything that they need to do the job and to straighten out a real financial mess.

>> Michael Grant:
Not necessarily anything you could have done about it, but obviously they have seen this storm coming for quite some time, you had to move a bill through the legislature.

>> Terry Goddard:
This had all of the stealth of an elephant moving through a cornfield.

>> Michael Grant:
Do you have assurance that in fact you captured the right universe of information or maybe some stuff went out the back door in March?

>> Terry Goddard:
Possible when the legislature was debating this, they saw the writing on the wall, decided to alter documents. I don't know, I can't speculate that. I can tell you our search warrant netted a tremendous amount of material. We're inventorying that.

>> Michael Grant:
Computers.

>> Terry Goddard:
Computers, we'll be able to tell if those computer memories have been wiped. We have good forensics. If it appears there has been destruction we'll have evidence of that. But frankly, I don't think so. Every indication was what we had hoped, they were truly surprised.

>> Michael Grant:
The law approved allows the department of education to step in on fiscal matters, in other words to assume really fiscal control.

>> Tom Horne:
We go to the state board and ask them to appoint a receiver and I've asked Terry as my lawyer to prepare the case.

>> Terry Goddard:
And we're doing it now. We've had our lawyers working. We don't want to waste a minute. The signs have been so egregious, teachers not being paid, allegations of school property being used for private purposes. We think the evidence we have will allow us to confirm or deny most if not all of the allegations.

>> Michael Grant:
You'll do this however through a trustee or receiver and that receiver will be invested with various powers, including but not limited to, I understand, the power to hire and fire.

>> Tom Horne:
Yes, and would be able to essentially take over the district and straighten it out.

>> Michael Grant:
How much information do you have on what's been going wrong up there at this point in time?

>> Terry Goddard:
Before the search warrant was executed, relatively little. There was information which I think you would normally expect to be coming out of any public body, simply was not forth coming from Colorado City.

>> Michael Grant:
The purchase of the plane being the highest profile item. The concern being that those public resources are being used for personal benefit by some school officials.

>> Terry Goddard:
You mentioned the plane, we do have evidence that the plane, payment on the plane were made punctually, when they knew payments to teachers were going to go into default. You really have to question the financial priorities in this particular area. No other school district to my knowledge in Arizona has its own plane. Granted they are a long way from everybody else but this seems excessive when in financial extremes.

>> Tom Horne:
I don't know if your viewers are aware but the teachers' paychecks were bouncing.

>> Terry Goddard:
They, I think, meet the four corners of the new statute the legislature enacted.

>> Michael Grant:
All of that will move into action in mid August, the law takes effect August 12?

>> Terry Goddard:
That's right, and we'll have the petition as soon as Superintendent Tom and the Board of Education is ready to hear it.

>> Michael Grant:
The Arizona Department of Education conducted an investigation into allegations that children are crossing the border at Lukeville to attend Arizona schools. What you are about to see is video shot May 23rd and 25th of this month at the border crossing. The voice you will hear is that of the investigator.

>> Gary Wilbank:
This is Gary, I'm recording the opening of the gate at the Lukeville, at 6:01 a.m. There's the border patrol officers, they're unlocking the gate. Morning. Okay, we have just seen the children that were let out of the car. They are now coming across. Two kids. Three kids. They've got backpacks on. Here come some more children. There's one, two, three, four, five, six kids. Walking across the border. Right now there's two school buses that have positioned themselves at the edge of town. It's May 25, about 6:17. I have been sitting at the border. There is no activity of crossing of any children as of yet. Another car has pulled up here, also. Mexican plates. Children boarding the buses. There they are. One, two, three -- a number of children. A group of children. There's a lot more kids today than there were the other day. For some reason. The buses have number one and number town on them. They have Pima County schools. There's another car that's letting people out. They're blocking off, I can't see. It's one child got off. That may be a local person, I don't know. This is a Hummer with a Mexican plate. The trucks are getting ready to leave. Number two is leaving first. Leaving right now at 6:43. There it goes. That's the end of the buses. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Tom, explain to me your interpretation of what we just saw.

>> Tom Horne:
In order for us to pay state aid for students out of taxpayer funds, of Arizona taxpayers, the students have to be residents of Arizona, people who live in Arizona presumably pay taxes in Arizona. Students who are residents in Mexico regardless of citizenship should go to school in Mexico or if they want to go to school in Arizona should pay tuition. The owners of that Hummer we saw here could probably afford to pay the tuition. But Arizona taxpayers under current law do not pay state aid for people who are not resident of Arizona. Here we saw students coming from Mexico where they live to pick up a bus that, the buses among them take 85 students to school in Ajo so I've taken the position that -- I'm the public official charged with distributing state aid. I'm not going to distribute state aid to students who are not residents of Arizona. We went to addresses of a trailer park, investigators saw the spaces were empty and they had used utility receipts which the county superintendent accepted as evidence of residence and the trailer park admitted they give the receipts.

>> Michael Grant:
The school district says they are not Mexican children in terms of citizen ship, they are children of border guards and others that they are U.S. citizens, what do you think.

>> Tom Horne:
Citizenship is not the issue, the issue is residents. People who reside in Phoenix but are not citizens, children of people who are not here legally get an education under federal law. If they're residents of Mexico, they're not entitled to have an education paid for by Arizona taxpayers. >>

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, are you going to take any action?

>> Terry Goddard:
The superintendent is correct, we can't pay the state stipend. We've been talking about the film and other investigative activities, what they are going to require of the superintendent. She is the one who certifies these students that they're out of district. They are not in the Ajo district if they're in the Lukeville area. She certifies if they can come in. She did an initial, as superintendent Horne said, she checked rent receipts, and they sent mail to the address, whatever it was, that was given. If that mail doesn't return there's a presumption that the kids live at that address. What I think we saw in the film was a rebutting of that presumption. That may be what they told you but it doesn't look like that is true. So she is now, I'm told, in the process of increasing the investigation. They now have reasonable suspicion to increase their investigative requests. That I believe is, what I was told today they were going to initiate.

>> Tom Horne:
I asked her to do home visits to see if people were living at the addresses that were given. She initially refused, but she said if the attorney general says it's okay, she would do it, so she's coming around.

>> Terry Goddard:
I have to convey one request that the film and the investigative report and so on, I'm very anxious to see that and try to identify what students are involved in that crossing.

>> Michael Grant:
If you don't get it, call our producers.

>> Terry Goddard:
I'm relying on my client here and then the right steps will be taken. Other counties have a similar problem and have done a very aggressive job of investigating the home addresses. If students do come from Mexico to this country, they exercise their right to charge.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry Goddard, thank you for joining us, Tom Horne, appreciate it.

>> Tom Horne:
Thank you, Mike.

>> Michael Grant:
For over a century, many attempts to meet the educational needs of Native American students have been unsuccessful despite legislation and numerous government programs, much still needs to be done. Here's a look back at Native American education and what some educational facilities are doing now.


>> Larry Lemmons:
The history of Indian education begins with an effort to a simulate Indian children into mainstream American society. Over the years, educators expected Native American students to fit into a system that was not only foreign to them but in direct conflict with the ways of their people.

>> David Beaulieu:
Its not Indian children specifically being the pop culture, being sort of empty vessels, and in order to have an influence they needed to be removed from the influences of that culture, of the community, the society the in which they were born. Removed from the influence of their parents. Particularly elderly members of their community. And taken off to go to school. Government implemented that in a lot of ways but the major feature was the development of what was called the off reservation boarding school.

>> Larry Lemmons:
These schools systematically separated Indian children from their culture. Once away from their homes their hair was cut, they were forbidden to speak traditional language and their tribal identities were eliminated.

>> David Beaulieu:
It reacted against the idea of having a sameness across the entire curriculum. They recognized Indian people were different in different communities, had different cultures and that a curriculum uniform for all these various communities and all these individuals and students didn't make sense.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The report which was critical of government Indian policies overall, felt that no Indian school met educational requirements. It also found that contrary to the opinion of the time, Indians were capable of an education and should receive all the benefits of one. But, decades later, another report which evolved out of concern for native Americans by Senator Robert Kennedy found that Indian education still had a long way to go.

>> David Beaulieu:
It was through his efforts that they formed what was called a Senate subcommittee on Indian education. That subcommittee held its own hearings and it ultimately moved to develop a series of, a report actually and recommendations, the final report set the tone for what was to occur from that point. And the final report labeled Indian education, a national tragedy, a national challenge. Whatever was going on was not responding to the needs of Indian people and it certainly wasn't working.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The Kennedy report found that on average Indian students were one to two years behind their non-Indian counterparts and found that 60\% would not graduate from high school and indeed most were expected to fail. The report sparked renewed interest in creating reform and several years later the Indian Education Act of 1972 was passed. Although many innovative programs were generated under the act, progress has continued to be slow.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think we have a long ways to go as far as academically getting our Native American students ready to enter the work force and enter into four year colleges and universities.

>> Larry Lemmons:
In an effort to better serve Native American, the Phoenix Union High School District offers programs based on age-old traditions.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
In the Phoenix Union High School District, we have culture camps that we use to bring forward some of the social interactive styles of learning in a natural environment up in the mountains. Native people a lot of times learn through social interaction with their extended family. If the social interaction is brought forward to the classroom, then that acquisition of college of how young people learn will be a lot more relevant. They will pick things up at a quicker pace.

>> Larry Lemmons:
At Phoenix College, another innovative district program, they bring the Navajo language to the students.

>> Jennifer Wheeler:
They are excited coming into the program. We try to do activities that include family participation as well as community activities. They get a lot of the culture. We include the government, Navajo government in our lessons. I think offing this Navajo course serves as a very nice supplemental education.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Approximately 90\% of native American students in the United States are attending public schools and with more native Americans living off the reservation, an increasing number of students will be attending schools off the reservation as well.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think what our educators, our administrators and teachers need to understand that they're going to see more native American youngsters in their classrooms. And that these young people are coming in with different worldviews, different ways to learn, different ways to acquire knowledge. And they have quite a bit to offer society and discussions in classrooms, as well.

>> Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano set a veto record this year, surpassing Jane Hull's 28 bills in 2001 with her own 58. Republican leaders say the vetoes were a breach of trust. A special session might be coming up this summer, but Republicans say future negotiations will be hampered. Joining us now to talk about the next step, the president of the Senate, Ken Bennett, and the House Speaker Jim Weiers. Gentlemen.

>> Ken Bennett:
Michael, good evening.

>> Michael Grant:
Have you calmed down yet?

>> Ken Bennett:
Calmed down. We respect the authority of the governor to veto bills. The fact that she vetoed a bunch of bills this year is not the problem. The problem is that on one specific bill that she and the speaker and I sat in my office on May the 4 or 5, whenever we reached the budget agreement, she had two bills that she was really needing, wanting, asking for. We told her that in order to get the support for those two bills, that was all-day kindergarten and the Phoenix Medical School, that in order to get the support out of the Republican caucuses for those two bills so important to her that we requested and she agreed to sign a bill for what's called corporate tuition tax credit, corporations could donate to a fund that provides scholarships to students. We agreed on those three bills. A week later when we sent the budget up at the end of the session, she signed the two bills that we agreed with her and vetoed the one that we had requested. In the ensuing days, there were allegations or claims of misunderstanding or whatever, but for several days after the agreement she defended the fact that she had agreed to this one bill in exchange for the two bills that she had asked the speaker and I to help get the support for. There was a series of events that actually Jim goes through pretty well, one day it was defending it, the next day was wondering whether she understood it, even though her budget official signed on it, the next day it was a further thing, pretty soon.

>> Jim Weiers:
The point that brings me to the point of fervor, the first excuse was I did what I did, and she was defending obviously to the left of the base of the strong support of hers and made no excuses. I did what I needed to do to get what I needed to get. Everybody got something but it's in a position where nobody is going to be happy. In the end, everybody is going to say something, I didn't like something.

>> Michael Grant:
She says that one of the terms of that deal was a sunset provision. Not a review provision. I'm told one of those legislative bodies agreed with her. One of the legislative agencies agreed it was supposed to be a sunset.

>> Jim Weiers:
I've been asked that question. What did I think, what did I understand it to be? Now it's not what I wanted it to be, it's not what I thought it should be, not what it could be, it's what it was. The language was as clear as you possibly could get. I think there were six narrations to that particular amendment. In each one of those, that never changed. There was never any question, there was never any conversation. There were lots of changes that came about within the final draft of the amendment, that was not one of them. To say that's what I thought it was, that's what it was. When you look at the original legislation, it's not exactly hidden in the bill.

>> Michael Grant:
George Cunningham signed off on that. He said it was an oversight, he read it too fast.

>> Jim Weirs:
Oh, no. That bill, like I said, six iterations. I believe, that particular amendment, there was more oversight. Just scrutiny, fine-tuning than anything. It wasn't something that was just missed. First we heard like Ken says, first, I'm defending what I did. Next is, I didn't quite understand it, it's not what I understood it to be. Third was that it was changed by the leadership at the last minute, making accusation that we went back on our word. And the fourth, always my favorite, tied in to the connection of the Florez. And up to the point her first remarks, her first stance was the correct one.

>> Michael Grant:
I want to get to that, senator, because that's the second issue and we're running out of time. The governor said you breached a deal to work with Democrats to find a solution for the Florez English language learners.

>> Ken Bennett:
It was in my conference room where we committed to the governor that we would address the Florez Bill English Language Learners. But it was never was tied to the budget, all day kindergarten, corporation tuition tax credit and the Phoenix medical school. We agreed later in my conference room that we would not finish the session without addressing the Florez bill but we never agreed after months and months of negotiating the budget that we would turn the entire budget over to yes or no by the minority leadership on one completely unrelated bill. We said we would address that bill, both sides gave and that was never tied to the corporation tuition tax credit.

>> Michael Grant:
We're almost out of time. I know you met with both caucuses today. Is there a special session planned?

>> Ken Bennett:
None at this point. We await the governor's call. We sent up a Florez bill that we think addresses the requirements of the court that she vetoed and played judge and governor simultaneously. We will not have the opportunity to go to the court since she vetoed it. We think the ball is in her court to propose an alternative. On the corporation tuition tax credit, we remain here asking her to keep her word.

>> Michael Grant:
Mr. Weiers thanks for joining us. Ken Bennett, thanks to you, as well.

>> Merry Lucero:
The new state department of health services talks about health care policy issues facing Arizona in 2005 and beyond. Plus, a unique, new 3-D theater environment enables researchers and scientists to provide information to public policy makers. Wednesday on "Horizon"

>> Michael Grant:
Thursday, Governor Janet Napolitano will be with us for her monthly conversation. Friday, join us for the Journalists Roundtable. Thanks for being here on a Tuesday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

Native American education


  • A look at the history of Native-American education in Arizona and a discussion of current education issues affecting Native Americans.
Guests:
  • Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard -
  • Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruct -
  • Senate President Ken Bennett -


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon", apparent evidence that children from Mexico are crossing the border to attend Arizona schools. A look at Native American education and what's being done to improve it. And Republican legislators are fuming over the governor's vetoes. Those stories are coming up.

>> "Horizon" is made possible by the Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon". An investigation conducted by the Arizona Department of Education has turned up video apparently showing children crossing the Mexican border to attend school in Arizona. We'll show excerpts from that video later in the program. But first, the latest on the Colorado City Unified School District. Joining us to talk about that, the Arizona Attorney General, Terry Goddard, and the Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction, Tom Horne. Gentlemen, thanks for coming.

>> Terri Goddard:
Good to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, why the search warrant last week on Colorado City?

>> Terry Goddard:
a number of reasons but one of the primary was to make sure that when the new law that establishes a receivership for school districts that are in serious financial trouble goes in effect on August 12, we want to make sure all the records are available, assuming the board of education a points as we will petition them to do, a points a receiver for this financially troubled district, we want to make sure the records are there and the receiver is able to start with everything that they need to do the job and to straighten out a real financial mess.

>> Michael Grant:
Not necessarily anything you could have done about it, but obviously they have seen this storm coming for quite some time, you had to move a bill through the legislature.

>> Terry Goddard:
This had all of the stealth of an elephant moving through a cornfield.

>> Michael Grant:
Do you have assurance that in fact you captured the right universe of information or maybe some stuff went out the back door in March?

>> Terry Goddard:
Possible when the legislature was debating this, they saw the writing on the wall, decided to alter documents. I don't know, I can't speculate that. I can tell you our search warrant netted a tremendous amount of material. We're inventorying that.

>> Michael Grant:
Computers.

>> Terry Goddard:
Computers, we'll be able to tell if those computer memories have been wiped. We have good forensics. If it appears there has been destruction we'll have evidence of that. But frankly, I don't think so. Every indication was what we had hoped, they were truly surprised.

>> Michael Grant:
The law approved allows the department of education to step in on fiscal matters, in other words to assume really fiscal control.

>> Tom Horne:
We go to the state board and ask them to appoint a receiver and I've asked Terry as my lawyer to prepare the case.

>> Terry Goddard:
And we're doing it now. We've had our lawyers working. We don't want to waste a minute. The signs have been so egregious, teachers not being paid, allegations of school property being used for private purposes. We think the evidence we have will allow us to confirm or deny most if not all of the allegations.

>> Michael Grant:
You'll do this however through a trustee or receiver and that receiver will be invested with various powers, including but not limited to, I understand, the power to hire and fire.

>> Tom Horne:
Yes, and would be able to essentially take over the district and straighten it out.

>> Michael Grant:
How much information do you have on what's been going wrong up there at this point in time?

>> Terry Goddard:
Before the search warrant was executed, relatively little. There was information which I think you would normally expect to be coming out of any public body, simply was not forth coming from Colorado City.

>> Michael Grant:
The purchase of the plane being the highest profile item. The concern being that those public resources are being used for personal benefit by some school officials.

>> Terry Goddard:
You mentioned the plane, we do have evidence that the plane, payment on the plane were made punctually, when they knew payments to teachers were going to go into default. You really have to question the financial priorities in this particular area. No other school district to my knowledge in Arizona has its own plane. Granted they are a long way from everybody else but this seems excessive when in financial extremes.

>> Tom Horne:
I don't know if your viewers are aware but the teachers' paychecks were bouncing.

>> Terry Goddard:
They, I think, meet the four corners of the new statute the legislature enacted.

>> Michael Grant:
All of that will move into action in mid August, the law takes effect August 12?

>> Terry Goddard:
That's right, and we'll have the petition as soon as Superintendent Tom and the Board of Education is ready to hear it.

>> Michael Grant:
The Arizona Department of Education conducted an investigation into allegations that children are crossing the border at Lukeville to attend Arizona schools. What you are about to see is video shot May 23rd and 25th of this month at the border crossing. The voice you will hear is that of the investigator.

>> Gary Wilbank:
This is Gary, I'm recording the opening of the gate at the Lukeville, at 6:01 a.m. There's the border patrol officers, they're unlocking the gate. Morning. Okay, we have just seen the children that were let out of the car. They are now coming across. Two kids. Three kids. They've got backpacks on. Here come some more children. There's one, two, three, four, five, six kids. Walking across the border. Right now there's two school buses that have positioned themselves at the edge of town. It's May 25, about 6:17. I have been sitting at the border. There is no activity of crossing of any children as of yet. Another car has pulled up here, also. Mexican plates. Children boarding the buses. There they are. One, two, three -- a number of children. A group of children. There's a lot more kids today than there were the other day. For some reason. The buses have number one and number town on them. They have Pima County schools. There's another car that's letting people out. They're blocking off, I can't see. It's one child got off. That may be a local person, I don't know. This is a Hummer with a Mexican plate. The trucks are getting ready to leave. Number two is leaving first. Leaving right now at 6:43. There it goes. That's the end of the buses. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Tom, explain to me your interpretation of what we just saw.

>> Tom Horne:
In order for us to pay state aid for students out of taxpayer funds, of Arizona taxpayers, the students have to be residents of Arizona, people who live in Arizona presumably pay taxes in Arizona. Students who are residents in Mexico regardless of citizenship should go to school in Mexico or if they want to go to school in Arizona should pay tuition. The owners of that Hummer we saw here could probably afford to pay the tuition. But Arizona taxpayers under current law do not pay state aid for people who are not resident of Arizona. Here we saw students coming from Mexico where they live to pick up a bus that, the buses among them take 85 students to school in Ajo so I've taken the position that -- I'm the public official charged with distributing state aid. I'm not going to distribute state aid to students who are not residents of Arizona. We went to addresses of a trailer park, investigators saw the spaces were empty and they had used utility receipts which the county superintendent accepted as evidence of residence and the trailer park admitted they give the receipts.

>> Michael Grant:
The school district says they are not Mexican children in terms of citizen ship, they are children of border guards and others that they are U.S. citizens, what do you think.

>> Tom Horne:
Citizenship is not the issue, the issue is residents. People who reside in Phoenix but are not citizens, children of people who are not here legally get an education under federal law. If they're residents of Mexico, they're not entitled to have an education paid for by Arizona taxpayers. >>

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, are you going to take any action?

>> Terry Goddard:
The superintendent is correct, we can't pay the state stipend. We've been talking about the film and other investigative activities, what they are going to require of the superintendent. She is the one who certifies these students that they're out of district. They are not in the Ajo district if they're in the Lukeville area. She certifies if they can come in. She did an initial, as superintendent Horne said, she checked rent receipts, and they sent mail to the address, whatever it was, that was given. If that mail doesn't return there's a presumption that the kids live at that address. What I think we saw in the film was a rebutting of that presumption. That may be what they told you but it doesn't look like that is true. So she is now, I'm told, in the process of increasing the investigation. They now have reasonable suspicion to increase their investigative requests. That I believe is, what I was told today they were going to initiate.

>> Tom Horne:
I asked her to do home visits to see if people were living at the addresses that were given. She initially refused, but she said if the attorney general says it's okay, she would do it, so she's coming around.

>> Terry Goddard:
I have to convey one request that the film and the investigative report and so on, I'm very anxious to see that and try to identify what students are involved in that crossing.

>> Michael Grant:
If you don't get it, call our producers.

>> Terry Goddard:
I'm relying on my client here and then the right steps will be taken. Other counties have a similar problem and have done a very aggressive job of investigating the home addresses. If students do come from Mexico to this country, they exercise their right to charge.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry Goddard, thank you for joining us, Tom Horne, appreciate it.

>> Tom Horne:
Thank you, Mike.

>> Michael Grant:
For over a century, many attempts to meet the educational needs of Native American students have been unsuccessful despite legislation and numerous government programs, much still needs to be done. Here's a look back at Native American education and what some educational facilities are doing now.


>> Larry Lemmons:
The history of Indian education begins with an effort to a simulate Indian children into mainstream American society. Over the years, educators expected Native American students to fit into a system that was not only foreign to them but in direct conflict with the ways of their people.

>> David Beaulieu:
Its not Indian children specifically being the pop culture, being sort of empty vessels, and in order to have an influence they needed to be removed from the influences of that culture, of the community, the society the in which they were born. Removed from the influence of their parents. Particularly elderly members of their community. And taken off to go to school. Government implemented that in a lot of ways but the major feature was the development of what was called the off reservation boarding school.

>> Larry Lemmons:
These schools systematically separated Indian children from their culture. Once away from their homes their hair was cut, they were forbidden to speak traditional language and their tribal identities were eliminated.

>> David Beaulieu:
It reacted against the idea of having a sameness across the entire curriculum. They recognized Indian people were different in different communities, had different cultures and that a curriculum uniform for all these various communities and all these individuals and students didn't make sense.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The report which was critical of government Indian policies overall, felt that no Indian school met educational requirements. It also found that contrary to the opinion of the time, Indians were capable of an education and should receive all the benefits of one. But, decades later, another report which evolved out of concern for native Americans by Senator Robert Kennedy found that Indian education still had a long way to go.

>> David Beaulieu:
It was through his efforts that they formed what was called a Senate subcommittee on Indian education. That subcommittee held its own hearings and it ultimately moved to develop a series of, a report actually and recommendations, the final report set the tone for what was to occur from that point. And the final report labeled Indian education, a national tragedy, a national challenge. Whatever was going on was not responding to the needs of Indian people and it certainly wasn't working.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The Kennedy report found that on average Indian students were one to two years behind their non-Indian counterparts and found that 60\% would not graduate from high school and indeed most were expected to fail. The report sparked renewed interest in creating reform and several years later the Indian Education Act of 1972 was passed. Although many innovative programs were generated under the act, progress has continued to be slow.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think we have a long ways to go as far as academically getting our Native American students ready to enter the work force and enter into four year colleges and universities.

>> Larry Lemmons:
In an effort to better serve Native American, the Phoenix Union High School District offers programs based on age-old traditions.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
In the Phoenix Union High School District, we have culture camps that we use to bring forward some of the social interactive styles of learning in a natural environment up in the mountains. Native people a lot of times learn through social interaction with their extended family. If the social interaction is brought forward to the classroom, then that acquisition of college of how young people learn will be a lot more relevant. They will pick things up at a quicker pace.

>> Larry Lemmons:
At Phoenix College, another innovative district program, they bring the Navajo language to the students.

>> Jennifer Wheeler:
They are excited coming into the program. We try to do activities that include family participation as well as community activities. They get a lot of the culture. We include the government, Navajo government in our lessons. I think offing this Navajo course serves as a very nice supplemental education.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Approximately 90\% of native American students in the United States are attending public schools and with more native Americans living off the reservation, an increasing number of students will be attending schools off the reservation as well.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think what our educators, our administrators and teachers need to understand that they're going to see more native American youngsters in their classrooms. And that these young people are coming in with different worldviews, different ways to learn, different ways to acquire knowledge. And they have quite a bit to offer society and discussions in classrooms, as well.

>> Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano set a veto record this year, surpassing Jane Hull's 28 bills in 2001 with her own 58. Republican leaders say the vetoes were a breach of trust. A special session might be coming up this summer, but Republicans say future negotiations will be hampered. Joining us now to talk about the next step, the president of the Senate, Ken Bennett, and the House Speaker Jim Weiers. Gentlemen.

>> Ken Bennett:
Michael, good evening.

>> Michael Grant:
Have you calmed down yet?

>> Ken Bennett:
Calmed down. We respect the authority of the governor to veto bills. The fact that she vetoed a bunch of bills this year is not the problem. The problem is that on one specific bill that she and the speaker and I sat in my office on May the 4 or 5, whenever we reached the budget agreement, she had two bills that she was really needing, wanting, asking for. We told her that in order to get the support for those two bills, that was all-day kindergarten and the Phoenix Medical School, that in order to get the support out of the Republican caucuses for those two bills so important to her that we requested and she agreed to sign a bill for what's called corporate tuition tax credit, corporations could donate to a fund that provides scholarships to students. We agreed on those three bills. A week later when we sent the budget up at the end of the session, she signed the two bills that we agreed with her and vetoed the one that we had requested. In the ensuing days, there were allegations or claims of misunderstanding or whatever, but for several days after the agreement she defended the fact that she had agreed to this one bill in exchange for the two bills that she had asked the speaker and I to help get the support for. There was a series of events that actually Jim goes through pretty well, one day it was defending it, the next day was wondering whether she understood it, even though her budget official signed on it, the next day it was a further thing, pretty soon.

>> Jim Weiers:
The point that brings me to the point of fervor, the first excuse was I did what I did, and she was defending obviously to the left of the base of the strong support of hers and made no excuses. I did what I needed to do to get what I needed to get. Everybody got something but it's in a position where nobody is going to be happy. In the end, everybody is going to say something, I didn't like something.

>> Michael Grant:
She says that one of the terms of that deal was a sunset provision. Not a review provision. I'm told one of those legislative bodies agreed with her. One of the legislative agencies agreed it was supposed to be a sunset.

>> Jim Weiers:
I've been asked that question. What did I think, what did I understand it to be? Now it's not what I wanted it to be, it's not what I thought it should be, not what it could be, it's what it was. The language was as clear as you possibly could get. I think there were six narrations to that particular amendment. In each one of those, that never changed. There was never any question, there was never any conversation. There were lots of changes that came about within the final draft of the amendment, that was not one of them. To say that's what I thought it was, that's what it was. When you look at the original legislation, it's not exactly hidden in the bill.

>> Michael Grant:
George Cunningham signed off on that. He said it was an oversight, he read it too fast.

>> Jim Weirs:
Oh, no. That bill, like I said, six iterations. I believe, that particular amendment, there was more oversight. Just scrutiny, fine-tuning than anything. It wasn't something that was just missed. First we heard like Ken says, first, I'm defending what I did. Next is, I didn't quite understand it, it's not what I understood it to be. Third was that it was changed by the leadership at the last minute, making accusation that we went back on our word. And the fourth, always my favorite, tied in to the connection of the Florez. And up to the point her first remarks, her first stance was the correct one.

>> Michael Grant:
I want to get to that, senator, because that's the second issue and we're running out of time. The governor said you breached a deal to work with Democrats to find a solution for the Florez English language learners.

>> Ken Bennett:
It was in my conference room where we committed to the governor that we would address the Florez Bill English Language Learners. But it was never was tied to the budget, all day kindergarten, corporation tuition tax credit and the Phoenix medical school. We agreed later in my conference room that we would not finish the session without addressing the Florez bill but we never agreed after months and months of negotiating the budget that we would turn the entire budget over to yes or no by the minority leadership on one completely unrelated bill. We said we would address that bill, both sides gave and that was never tied to the corporation tuition tax credit.

>> Michael Grant:
We're almost out of time. I know you met with both caucuses today. Is there a special session planned?

>> Ken Bennett:
None at this point. We await the governor's call. We sent up a Florez bill that we think addresses the requirements of the court that she vetoed and played judge and governor simultaneously. We will not have the opportunity to go to the court since she vetoed it. We think the ball is in her court to propose an alternative. On the corporation tuition tax credit, we remain here asking her to keep her word.

>> Michael Grant:
Mr. Weiers thanks for joining us. Ken Bennett, thanks to you, as well.

>> Merry Lucero:
The new state department of health services talks about health care policy issues facing Arizona in 2005 and beyond. Plus, a unique, new 3-D theater environment enables researchers and scientists to provide information to public policy makers. Wednesday on "Horizon"

>> Michael Grant:
Thursday, Governor Janet Napolitano will be with us for her monthly conversation. Friday, join us for the Journalists Roundtable. Thanks for being here on a Tuesday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

Republican leadership's reaction to Gover


Guests:
  • Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard -
  • Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruct -
  • Senate President Ken Bennett -


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon", apparent evidence that children from Mexico are crossing the border to attend Arizona schools. A look at Native American education and what's being done to improve it. And Republican legislators are fuming over the governor's vetoes. Those stories are coming up.

>> "Horizon" is made possible by the Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon". An investigation conducted by the Arizona Department of Education has turned up video apparently showing children crossing the Mexican border to attend school in Arizona. We'll show excerpts from that video later in the program. But first, the latest on the Colorado City Unified School District. Joining us to talk about that, the Arizona Attorney General, Terry Goddard, and the Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction, Tom Horne. Gentlemen, thanks for coming.

>> Terri Goddard:
Good to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, why the search warrant last week on Colorado City?

>> Terry Goddard:
a number of reasons but one of the primary was to make sure that when the new law that establishes a receivership for school districts that are in serious financial trouble goes in effect on August 12, we want to make sure all the records are available, assuming the board of education a points as we will petition them to do, a points a receiver for this financially troubled district, we want to make sure the records are there and the receiver is able to start with everything that they need to do the job and to straighten out a real financial mess.

>> Michael Grant:
Not necessarily anything you could have done about it, but obviously they have seen this storm coming for quite some time, you had to move a bill through the legislature.

>> Terry Goddard:
This had all of the stealth of an elephant moving through a cornfield.

>> Michael Grant:
Do you have assurance that in fact you captured the right universe of information or maybe some stuff went out the back door in March?

>> Terry Goddard:
Possible when the legislature was debating this, they saw the writing on the wall, decided to alter documents. I don't know, I can't speculate that. I can tell you our search warrant netted a tremendous amount of material. We're inventorying that.

>> Michael Grant:
Computers.

>> Terry Goddard:
Computers, we'll be able to tell if those computer memories have been wiped. We have good forensics. If it appears there has been destruction we'll have evidence of that. But frankly, I don't think so. Every indication was what we had hoped, they were truly surprised.

>> Michael Grant:
The law approved allows the department of education to step in on fiscal matters, in other words to assume really fiscal control.

>> Tom Horne:
We go to the state board and ask them to appoint a receiver and I've asked Terry as my lawyer to prepare the case.

>> Terry Goddard:
And we're doing it now. We've had our lawyers working. We don't want to waste a minute. The signs have been so egregious, teachers not being paid, allegations of school property being used for private purposes. We think the evidence we have will allow us to confirm or deny most if not all of the allegations.

>> Michael Grant:
You'll do this however through a trustee or receiver and that receiver will be invested with various powers, including but not limited to, I understand, the power to hire and fire.

>> Tom Horne:
Yes, and would be able to essentially take over the district and straighten it out.

>> Michael Grant:
How much information do you have on what's been going wrong up there at this point in time?

>> Terry Goddard:
Before the search warrant was executed, relatively little. There was information which I think you would normally expect to be coming out of any public body, simply was not forth coming from Colorado City.

>> Michael Grant:
The purchase of the plane being the highest profile item. The concern being that those public resources are being used for personal benefit by some school officials.

>> Terry Goddard:
You mentioned the plane, we do have evidence that the plane, payment on the plane were made punctually, when they knew payments to teachers were going to go into default. You really have to question the financial priorities in this particular area. No other school district to my knowledge in Arizona has its own plane. Granted they are a long way from everybody else but this seems excessive when in financial extremes.

>> Tom Horne:
I don't know if your viewers are aware but the teachers' paychecks were bouncing.

>> Terry Goddard:
They, I think, meet the four corners of the new statute the legislature enacted.

>> Michael Grant:
All of that will move into action in mid August, the law takes effect August 12?

>> Terry Goddard:
That's right, and we'll have the petition as soon as Superintendent Tom and the Board of Education is ready to hear it.

>> Michael Grant:
The Arizona Department of Education conducted an investigation into allegations that children are crossing the border at Lukeville to attend Arizona schools. What you are about to see is video shot May 23rd and 25th of this month at the border crossing. The voice you will hear is that of the investigator.

>> Gary Wilbank:
This is Gary, I'm recording the opening of the gate at the Lukeville, at 6:01 a.m. There's the border patrol officers, they're unlocking the gate. Morning. Okay, we have just seen the children that were let out of the car. They are now coming across. Two kids. Three kids. They've got backpacks on. Here come some more children. There's one, two, three, four, five, six kids. Walking across the border. Right now there's two school buses that have positioned themselves at the edge of town. It's May 25, about 6:17. I have been sitting at the border. There is no activity of crossing of any children as of yet. Another car has pulled up here, also. Mexican plates. Children boarding the buses. There they are. One, two, three -- a number of children. A group of children. There's a lot more kids today than there were the other day. For some reason. The buses have number one and number town on them. They have Pima County schools. There's another car that's letting people out. They're blocking off, I can't see. It's one child got off. That may be a local person, I don't know. This is a Hummer with a Mexican plate. The trucks are getting ready to leave. Number two is leaving first. Leaving right now at 6:43. There it goes. That's the end of the buses. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Tom, explain to me your interpretation of what we just saw.

>> Tom Horne:
In order for us to pay state aid for students out of taxpayer funds, of Arizona taxpayers, the students have to be residents of Arizona, people who live in Arizona presumably pay taxes in Arizona. Students who are residents in Mexico regardless of citizenship should go to school in Mexico or if they want to go to school in Arizona should pay tuition. The owners of that Hummer we saw here could probably afford to pay the tuition. But Arizona taxpayers under current law do not pay state aid for people who are not resident of Arizona. Here we saw students coming from Mexico where they live to pick up a bus that, the buses among them take 85 students to school in Ajo so I've taken the position that -- I'm the public official charged with distributing state aid. I'm not going to distribute state aid to students who are not residents of Arizona. We went to addresses of a trailer park, investigators saw the spaces were empty and they had used utility receipts which the county superintendent accepted as evidence of residence and the trailer park admitted they give the receipts.

>> Michael Grant:
The school district says they are not Mexican children in terms of citizen ship, they are children of border guards and others that they are U.S. citizens, what do you think.

>> Tom Horne:
Citizenship is not the issue, the issue is residents. People who reside in Phoenix but are not citizens, children of people who are not here legally get an education under federal law. If they're residents of Mexico, they're not entitled to have an education paid for by Arizona taxpayers. >>

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, are you going to take any action?

>> Terry Goddard:
The superintendent is correct, we can't pay the state stipend. We've been talking about the film and other investigative activities, what they are going to require of the superintendent. She is the one who certifies these students that they're out of district. They are not in the Ajo district if they're in the Lukeville area. She certifies if they can come in. She did an initial, as superintendent Horne said, she checked rent receipts, and they sent mail to the address, whatever it was, that was given. If that mail doesn't return there's a presumption that the kids live at that address. What I think we saw in the film was a rebutting of that presumption. That may be what they told you but it doesn't look like that is true. So she is now, I'm told, in the process of increasing the investigation. They now have reasonable suspicion to increase their investigative requests. That I believe is, what I was told today they were going to initiate.

>> Tom Horne:
I asked her to do home visits to see if people were living at the addresses that were given. She initially refused, but she said if the attorney general says it's okay, she would do it, so she's coming around.

>> Terry Goddard:
I have to convey one request that the film and the investigative report and so on, I'm very anxious to see that and try to identify what students are involved in that crossing.

>> Michael Grant:
If you don't get it, call our producers.

>> Terry Goddard:
I'm relying on my client here and then the right steps will be taken. Other counties have a similar problem and have done a very aggressive job of investigating the home addresses. If students do come from Mexico to this country, they exercise their right to charge.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry Goddard, thank you for joining us, Tom Horne, appreciate it.

>> Tom Horne:
Thank you, Mike.

>> Michael Grant:
For over a century, many attempts to meet the educational needs of Native American students have been unsuccessful despite legislation and numerous government programs, much still needs to be done. Here's a look back at Native American education and what some educational facilities are doing now.


>> Larry Lemmons:
The history of Indian education begins with an effort to a simulate Indian children into mainstream American society. Over the years, educators expected Native American students to fit into a system that was not only foreign to them but in direct conflict with the ways of their people.

>> David Beaulieu:
Its not Indian children specifically being the pop culture, being sort of empty vessels, and in order to have an influence they needed to be removed from the influences of that culture, of the community, the society the in which they were born. Removed from the influence of their parents. Particularly elderly members of their community. And taken off to go to school. Government implemented that in a lot of ways but the major feature was the development of what was called the off reservation boarding school.

>> Larry Lemmons:
These schools systematically separated Indian children from their culture. Once away from their homes their hair was cut, they were forbidden to speak traditional language and their tribal identities were eliminated.

>> David Beaulieu:
It reacted against the idea of having a sameness across the entire curriculum. They recognized Indian people were different in different communities, had different cultures and that a curriculum uniform for all these various communities and all these individuals and students didn't make sense.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The report which was critical of government Indian policies overall, felt that no Indian school met educational requirements. It also found that contrary to the opinion of the time, Indians were capable of an education and should receive all the benefits of one. But, decades later, another report which evolved out of concern for native Americans by Senator Robert Kennedy found that Indian education still had a long way to go.

>> David Beaulieu:
It was through his efforts that they formed what was called a Senate subcommittee on Indian education. That subcommittee held its own hearings and it ultimately moved to develop a series of, a report actually and recommendations, the final report set the tone for what was to occur from that point. And the final report labeled Indian education, a national tragedy, a national challenge. Whatever was going on was not responding to the needs of Indian people and it certainly wasn't working.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The Kennedy report found that on average Indian students were one to two years behind their non-Indian counterparts and found that 60\% would not graduate from high school and indeed most were expected to fail. The report sparked renewed interest in creating reform and several years later the Indian Education Act of 1972 was passed. Although many innovative programs were generated under the act, progress has continued to be slow.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think we have a long ways to go as far as academically getting our Native American students ready to enter the work force and enter into four year colleges and universities.

>> Larry Lemmons:
In an effort to better serve Native American, the Phoenix Union High School District offers programs based on age-old traditions.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
In the Phoenix Union High School District, we have culture camps that we use to bring forward some of the social interactive styles of learning in a natural environment up in the mountains. Native people a lot of times learn through social interaction with their extended family. If the social interaction is brought forward to the classroom, then that acquisition of college of how young people learn will be a lot more relevant. They will pick things up at a quicker pace.

>> Larry Lemmons:
At Phoenix College, another innovative district program, they bring the Navajo language to the students.

>> Jennifer Wheeler:
They are excited coming into the program. We try to do activities that include family participation as well as community activities. They get a lot of the culture. We include the government, Navajo government in our lessons. I think offing this Navajo course serves as a very nice supplemental education.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Approximately 90\% of native American students in the United States are attending public schools and with more native Americans living off the reservation, an increasing number of students will be attending schools off the reservation as well.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think what our educators, our administrators and teachers need to understand that they're going to see more native American youngsters in their classrooms. And that these young people are coming in with different worldviews, different ways to learn, different ways to acquire knowledge. And they have quite a bit to offer society and discussions in classrooms, as well.

>> Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano set a veto record this year, surpassing Jane Hull's 28 bills in 2001 with her own 58. Republican leaders say the vetoes were a breach of trust. A special session might be coming up this summer, but Republicans say future negotiations will be hampered. Joining us now to talk about the next step, the president of the Senate, Ken Bennett, and the House Speaker Jim Weiers. Gentlemen.

>> Ken Bennett:
Michael, good evening.

>> Michael Grant:
Have you calmed down yet?

>> Ken Bennett:
Calmed down. We respect the authority of the governor to veto bills. The fact that she vetoed a bunch of bills this year is not the problem. The problem is that on one specific bill that she and the speaker and I sat in my office on May the 4 or 5, whenever we reached the budget agreement, she had two bills that she was really needing, wanting, asking for. We told her that in order to get the support for those two bills, that was all-day kindergarten and the Phoenix Medical School, that in order to get the support out of the Republican caucuses for those two bills so important to her that we requested and she agreed to sign a bill for what's called corporate tuition tax credit, corporations could donate to a fund that provides scholarships to students. We agreed on those three bills. A week later when we sent the budget up at the end of the session, she signed the two bills that we agreed with her and vetoed the one that we had requested. In the ensuing days, there were allegations or claims of misunderstanding or whatever, but for several days after the agreement she defended the fact that she had agreed to this one bill in exchange for the two bills that she had asked the speaker and I to help get the support for. There was a series of events that actually Jim goes through pretty well, one day it was defending it, the next day was wondering whether she understood it, even though her budget official signed on it, the next day it was a further thing, pretty soon.

>> Jim Weiers:
The point that brings me to the point of fervor, the first excuse was I did what I did, and she was defending obviously to the left of the base of the strong support of hers and made no excuses. I did what I needed to do to get what I needed to get. Everybody got something but it's in a position where nobody is going to be happy. In the end, everybody is going to say something, I didn't like something.

>> Michael Grant:
She says that one of the terms of that deal was a sunset provision. Not a review provision. I'm told one of those legislative bodies agreed with her. One of the legislative agencies agreed it was supposed to be a sunset.

>> Jim Weiers:
I've been asked that question. What did I think, what did I understand it to be? Now it's not what I wanted it to be, it's not what I thought it should be, not what it could be, it's what it was. The language was as clear as you possibly could get. I think there were six narrations to that particular amendment. In each one of those, that never changed. There was never any question, there was never any conversation. There were lots of changes that came about within the final draft of the amendment, that was not one of them. To say that's what I thought it was, that's what it was. When you look at the original legislation, it's not exactly hidden in the bill.

>> Michael Grant:
George Cunningham signed off on that. He said it was an oversight, he read it too fast.

>> Jim Weirs:
Oh, no. That bill, like I said, six iterations. I believe, that particular amendment, there was more oversight. Just scrutiny, fine-tuning than anything. It wasn't something that was just missed. First we heard like Ken says, first, I'm defending what I did. Next is, I didn't quite understand it, it's not what I understood it to be. Third was that it was changed by the leadership at the last minute, making accusation that we went back on our word. And the fourth, always my favorite, tied in to the connection of the Florez. And up to the point her first remarks, her first stance was the correct one.

>> Michael Grant:
I want to get to that, senator, because that's the second issue and we're running out of time. The governor said you breached a deal to work with Democrats to find a solution for the Florez English language learners.

>> Ken Bennett:
It was in my conference room where we committed to the governor that we would address the Florez Bill English Language Learners. But it was never was tied to the budget, all day kindergarten, corporation tuition tax credit and the Phoenix medical school. We agreed later in my conference room that we would not finish the session without addressing the Florez bill but we never agreed after months and months of negotiating the budget that we would turn the entire budget over to yes or no by the minority leadership on one completely unrelated bill. We said we would address that bill, both sides gave and that was never tied to the corporation tuition tax credit.

>> Michael Grant:
We're almost out of time. I know you met with both caucuses today. Is there a special session planned?

>> Ken Bennett:
None at this point. We await the governor's call. We sent up a Florez bill that we think addresses the requirements of the court that she vetoed and played judge and governor simultaneously. We will not have the opportunity to go to the court since she vetoed it. We think the ball is in her court to propose an alternative. On the corporation tuition tax credit, we remain here asking her to keep her word.

>> Michael Grant:
Mr. Weiers thanks for joining us. Ken Bennett, thanks to you, as well.

>> Merry Lucero:
The new state department of health services talks about health care policy issues facing Arizona in 2005 and beyond. Plus, a unique, new 3-D theater environment enables researchers and scientists to provide information to public policy makers. Wednesday on "Horizon"

>> Michael Grant:
Thursday, Governor Janet Napolitano will be with us for her monthly conversation. Friday, join us for the Journalists Roundtable. Thanks for being here on a Tuesday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

Republican leadership's reaction to Governor's vetoes


  • Governor Napolitano set a veto record this year, surpassing Jane Hull's 28 bills in 2001 with her own 58. Republican leaders say the vetoes were a breach of trust. Republicans say future negotiations will be hampered.
Guests:
  • Terry Goddard - Arizona Attorney General
  • Tom Horne - Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction
  • Ken Bennett - Senate President


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon", apparent evidence that children from Mexico are crossing the border to attend Arizona schools. A look at Native American education and what's being done to improve it. And Republican legislators are fuming over the governor's vetoes. Those stories are coming up.

>> "Horizon" is made possible by the Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon". An investigation conducted by the Arizona Department of Education has turned up video apparently showing children crossing the Mexican border to attend school in Arizona. We'll show excerpts from that video later in the program. But first, the latest on the Colorado City Unified School District. Joining us to talk about that, the Arizona Attorney General, Terry Goddard, and the Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction, Tom Horne. Gentlemen, thanks for coming.

>> Terri Goddard:
Good to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, why the search warrant last week on Colorado City?

>> Terry Goddard:
a number of reasons but one of the primary was to make sure that when the new law that establishes a receivership for school districts that are in serious financial trouble goes in effect on August 12, we want to make sure all the records are available, assuming the board of education a points as we will petition them to do, a points a receiver for this financially troubled district, we want to make sure the records are there and the receiver is able to start with everything that they need to do the job and to straighten out a real financial mess.

>> Michael Grant:
Not necessarily anything you could have done about it, but obviously they have seen this storm coming for quite some time, you had to move a bill through the legislature.

>> Terry Goddard:
This had all of the stealth of an elephant moving through a cornfield.

>> Michael Grant:
Do you have assurance that in fact you captured the right universe of information or maybe some stuff went out the back door in March?

>> Terry Goddard:
Possible when the legislature was debating this, they saw the writing on the wall, decided to alter documents. I don't know, I can't speculate that. I can tell you our search warrant netted a tremendous amount of material. We're inventorying that.

>> Michael Grant:
Computers.

>> Terry Goddard:
Computers, we'll be able to tell if those computer memories have been wiped. We have good forensics. If it appears there has been destruction we'll have evidence of that. But frankly, I don't think so. Every indication was what we had hoped, they were truly surprised.

>> Michael Grant:
The law approved allows the department of education to step in on fiscal matters, in other words to assume really fiscal control.

>> Tom Horne:
We go to the state board and ask them to appoint a receiver and I've asked Terry as my lawyer to prepare the case.

>> Terry Goddard:
And we're doing it now. We've had our lawyers working. We don't want to waste a minute. The signs have been so egregious, teachers not being paid, allegations of school property being used for private purposes. We think the evidence we have will allow us to confirm or deny most if not all of the allegations.

>> Michael Grant:
You'll do this however through a trustee or receiver and that receiver will be invested with various powers, including but not limited to, I understand, the power to hire and fire.

>> Tom Horne:
Yes, and would be able to essentially take over the district and straighten it out.

>> Michael Grant:
How much information do you have on what's been going wrong up there at this point in time?

>> Terry Goddard:
Before the search warrant was executed, relatively little. There was information which I think you would normally expect to be coming out of any public body, simply was not forth coming from Colorado City.

>> Michael Grant:
The purchase of the plane being the highest profile item. The concern being that those public resources are being used for personal benefit by some school officials.

>> Terry Goddard:
You mentioned the plane, we do have evidence that the plane, payment on the plane were made punctually, when they knew payments to teachers were going to go into default. You really have to question the financial priorities in this particular area. No other school district to my knowledge in Arizona has its own plane. Granted they are a long way from everybody else but this seems excessive when in financial extremes.

>> Tom Horne:
I don't know if your viewers are aware but the teachers' paychecks were bouncing.

>> Terry Goddard:
They, I think, meet the four corners of the new statute the legislature enacted.

>> Michael Grant:
All of that will move into action in mid August, the law takes effect August 12?

>> Terry Goddard:
That's right, and we'll have the petition as soon as Superintendent Tom and the Board of Education is ready to hear it.

>> Michael Grant:
The Arizona Department of Education conducted an investigation into allegations that children are crossing the border at Lukeville to attend Arizona schools. What you are about to see is video shot May 23rd and 25th of this month at the border crossing. The voice you will hear is that of the investigator.

>> Gary Wilbank:
This is Gary, I'm recording the opening of the gate at the Lukeville, at 6:01 a.m. There's the border patrol officers, they're unlocking the gate. Morning. Okay, we have just seen the children that were let out of the car. They are now coming across. Two kids. Three kids. They've got backpacks on. Here come some more children. There's one, two, three, four, five, six kids. Walking across the border. Right now there's two school buses that have positioned themselves at the edge of town. It's May 25, about 6:17. I have been sitting at the border. There is no activity of crossing of any children as of yet. Another car has pulled up here, also. Mexican plates. Children boarding the buses. There they are. One, two, three -- a number of children. A group of children. There's a lot more kids today than there were the other day. For some reason. The buses have number one and number town on them. They have Pima County schools. There's another car that's letting people out. They're blocking off, I can't see. It's one child got off. That may be a local person, I don't know. This is a Hummer with a Mexican plate. The trucks are getting ready to leave. Number two is leaving first. Leaving right now at 6:43. There it goes. That's the end of the buses. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Tom, explain to me your interpretation of what we just saw.

>> Tom Horne:
In order for us to pay state aid for students out of taxpayer funds, of Arizona taxpayers, the students have to be residents of Arizona, people who live in Arizona presumably pay taxes in Arizona. Students who are residents in Mexico regardless of citizenship should go to school in Mexico or if they want to go to school in Arizona should pay tuition. The owners of that Hummer we saw here could probably afford to pay the tuition. But Arizona taxpayers under current law do not pay state aid for people who are not resident of Arizona. Here we saw students coming from Mexico where they live to pick up a bus that, the buses among them take 85 students to school in Ajo so I've taken the position that -- I'm the public official charged with distributing state aid. I'm not going to distribute state aid to students who are not residents of Arizona. We went to addresses of a trailer park, investigators saw the spaces were empty and they had used utility receipts which the county superintendent accepted as evidence of residence and the trailer park admitted they give the receipts.

>> Michael Grant:
The school district says they are not Mexican children in terms of citizen ship, they are children of border guards and others that they are U.S. citizens, what do you think.

>> Tom Horne:
Citizenship is not the issue, the issue is residents. People who reside in Phoenix but are not citizens, children of people who are not here legally get an education under federal law. If they're residents of Mexico, they're not entitled to have an education paid for by Arizona taxpayers. >>

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, are you going to take any action?

>> Terry Goddard:
The superintendent is correct, we can't pay the state stipend. We've been talking about the film and other investigative activities, what they are going to require of the superintendent. She is the one who certifies these students that they're out of district. They are not in the Ajo district if they're in the Lukeville area. She certifies if they can come in. She did an initial, as superintendent Horne said, she checked rent receipts, and they sent mail to the address, whatever it was, that was given. If that mail doesn't return there's a presumption that the kids live at that address. What I think we saw in the film was a rebutting of that presumption. That may be what they told you but it doesn't look like that is true. So she is now, I'm told, in the process of increasing the investigation. They now have reasonable suspicion to increase their investigative requests. That I believe is, what I was told today they were going to initiate.

>> Tom Horne:
I asked her to do home visits to see if people were living at the addresses that were given. She initially refused, but she said if the attorney general says it's okay, she would do it, so she's coming around.

>> Terry Goddard:
I have to convey one request that the film and the investigative report and so on, I'm very anxious to see that and try to identify what students are involved in that crossing.

>> Michael Grant:
If you don't get it, call our producers.

>> Terry Goddard:
I'm relying on my client here and then the right steps will be taken. Other counties have a similar problem and have done a very aggressive job of investigating the home addresses. If students do come from Mexico to this country, they exercise their right to charge.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry Goddard, thank you for joining us, Tom Horne, appreciate it.

>> Tom Horne:
Thank you, Mike.

>> Michael Grant:
For over a century, many attempts to meet the educational needs of Native American students have been unsuccessful despite legislation and numerous government programs, much still needs to be done. Here's a look back at Native American education and what some educational facilities are doing now.


>> Larry Lemmons:
The history of Indian education begins with an effort to a simulate Indian children into mainstream American society. Over the years, educators expected Native American students to fit into a system that was not only foreign to them but in direct conflict with the ways of their people.

>> David Beaulieu:
Its not Indian children specifically being the pop culture, being sort of empty vessels, and in order to have an influence they needed to be removed from the influences of that culture, of the community, the society the in which they were born. Removed from the influence of their parents. Particularly elderly members of their community. And taken off to go to school. Government implemented that in a lot of ways but the major feature was the development of what was called the off reservation boarding school.

>> Larry Lemmons:
These schools systematically separated Indian children from their culture. Once away from their homes their hair was cut, they were forbidden to speak traditional language and their tribal identities were eliminated.

>> David Beaulieu:
It reacted against the idea of having a sameness across the entire curriculum. They recognized Indian people were different in different communities, had different cultures and that a curriculum uniform for all these various communities and all these individuals and students didn't make sense.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The report which was critical of government Indian policies overall, felt that no Indian school met educational requirements. It also found that contrary to the opinion of the time, Indians were capable of an education and should receive all the benefits of one. But, decades later, another report which evolved out of concern for native Americans by Senator Robert Kennedy found that Indian education still had a long way to go.

>> David Beaulieu:
It was through his efforts that they formed what was called a Senate subcommittee on Indian education. That subcommittee held its own hearings and it ultimately moved to develop a series of, a report actually and recommendations, the final report set the tone for what was to occur from that point. And the final report labeled Indian education, a national tragedy, a national challenge. Whatever was going on was not responding to the needs of Indian people and it certainly wasn't working.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The Kennedy report found that on average Indian students were one to two years behind their non-Indian counterparts and found that 60\% would not graduate from high school and indeed most were expected to fail. The report sparked renewed interest in creating reform and several years later the Indian Education Act of 1972 was passed. Although many innovative programs were generated under the act, progress has continued to be slow.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think we have a long ways to go as far as academically getting our Native American students ready to enter the work force and enter into four year colleges and universities.

>> Larry Lemmons:
In an effort to better serve Native American, the Phoenix Union High School District offers programs based on age-old traditions.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
In the Phoenix Union High School District, we have culture camps that we use to bring forward some of the social interactive styles of learning in a natural environment up in the mountains. Native people a lot of times learn through social interaction with their extended family. If the social interaction is brought forward to the classroom, then that acquisition of college of how young people learn will be a lot more relevant. They will pick things up at a quicker pace.

>> Larry Lemmons:
At Phoenix College, another innovative district program, they bring the Navajo language to the students.

>> Jennifer Wheeler:
They are excited coming into the program. We try to do activities that include family participation as well as community activities. They get a lot of the culture. We include the government, Navajo government in our lessons. I think offing this Navajo course serves as a very nice supplemental education.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Approximately 90\% of native American students in the United States are attending public schools and with more native Americans living off the reservation, an increasing number of students will be attending schools off the reservation as well.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think what our educators, our administrators and teachers need to understand that they're going to see more native American youngsters in their classrooms. And that these young people are coming in with different worldviews, different ways to learn, different ways to acquire knowledge. And they have quite a bit to offer society and discussions in classrooms, as well.

>> Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano set a veto record this year, surpassing Jane Hull's 28 bills in 2001 with her own 58. Republican leaders say the vetoes were a breach of trust. A special session might be coming up this summer, but Republicans say future negotiations will be hampered. Joining us now to talk about the next step, the president of the Senate, Ken Bennett, and the House Speaker Jim Weiers. Gentlemen.

>> Ken Bennett:
Michael, good evening.

>> Michael Grant:
Have you calmed down yet?

>> Ken Bennett:
Calmed down. We respect the authority of the governor to veto bills. The fact that she vetoed a bunch of bills this year is not the problem. The problem is that on one specific bill that she and the speaker and I sat in my office on May the 4 or 5, whenever we reached the budget agreement, she had two bills that she was really needing, wanting, asking for. We told her that in order to get the support for those two bills, that was all-day kindergarten and the Phoenix Medical School, that in order to get the support out of the Republican caucuses for those two bills so important to her that we requested and she agreed to sign a bill for what's called corporate tuition tax credit, corporations could donate to a fund that provides scholarships to students. We agreed on those three bills. A week later when we sent the budget up at the end of the session, she signed the two bills that we agreed with her and vetoed the one that we had requested. In the ensuing days, there were allegations or claims of misunderstanding or whatever, but for several days after the agreement she defended the fact that she had agreed to this one bill in exchange for the two bills that she had asked the speaker and I to help get the support for. There was a series of events that actually Jim goes through pretty well, one day it was defending it, the next day was wondering whether she understood it, even though her budget official signed on it, the next day it was a further thing, pretty soon.

>> Jim Weiers:
The point that brings me to the point of fervor, the first excuse was I did what I did, and she was defending obviously to the left of the base of the strong support of hers and made no excuses. I did what I needed to do to get what I needed to get. Everybody got something but it's in a position where nobody is going to be happy. In the end, everybody is going to say something, I didn't like something.

>> Michael Grant:
She says that one of the terms of that deal was a sunset provision. Not a review provision. I'm told one of those legislative bodies agreed with her. One of the legislative agencies agreed it was supposed to be a sunset.

>> Jim Weiers:
I've been asked that question. What did I think, what did I understand it to be? Now it's not what I wanted it to be, it's not what I thought it should be, not what it could be, it's what it was. The language was as clear as you possibly could get. I think there were six narrations to that particular amendment. In each one of those, that never changed. There was never any question, there was never any conversation. There were lots of changes that came about within the final draft of the amendment, that was not one of them. To say that's what I thought it was, that's what it was. When you look at the original legislation, it's not exactly hidden in the bill.

>> Michael Grant:
George Cunningham signed off on that. He said it was an oversight, he read it too fast.

>> Jim Weirs:
Oh, no. That bill, like I said, six iterations. I believe, that particular amendment, there was more oversight. Just scrutiny, fine-tuning than anything. It wasn't something that was just missed. First we heard like Ken says, first, I'm defending what I did. Next is, I didn't quite understand it, it's not what I understood it to be. Third was that it was changed by the leadership at the last minute, making accusation that we went back on our word. And the fourth, always my favorite, tied in to the connection of the Florez. And up to the point her first remarks, her first stance was the correct one.

>> Michael Grant:
I want to get to that, senator, because that's the second issue and we're running out of time. The governor said you breached a deal to work with Democrats to find a solution for the Florez English language learners.

>> Ken Bennett:
It was in my conference room where we committed to the governor that we would address the Florez Bill English Language Learners. But it was never was tied to the budget, all day kindergarten, corporation tuition tax credit and the Phoenix medical school. We agreed later in my conference room that we would not finish the session without addressing the Florez bill but we never agreed after months and months of negotiating the budget that we would turn the entire budget over to yes or no by the minority leadership on one completely unrelated bill. We said we would address that bill, both sides gave and that was never tied to the corporation tuition tax credit.

>> Michael Grant:
We're almost out of time. I know you met with both caucuses today. Is there a special session planned?

>> Ken Bennett:
None at this point. We await the governor's call. We sent up a Florez bill that we think addresses the requirements of the court that she vetoed and played judge and governor simultaneously. We will not have the opportunity to go to the court since she vetoed it. We think the ball is in her court to propose an alternative. On the corporation tuition tax credit, we remain here asking her to keep her word.

>> Michael Grant:
Mr. Weiers thanks for joining us. Ken Bennett, thanks to you, as well.

>> Merry Lucero:
The new state department of health services talks about health care policy issues facing Arizona in 2005 and beyond. Plus, a unique, new 3-D theater environment enables researchers and scientists to provide information to public policy makers. Wednesday on "Horizon"

>> Michael Grant:
Thursday, Governor Janet Napolitano will be with us for her monthly conversation. Friday, join us for the Journalists Roundtable. Thanks for being here on a Tuesday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

school district controversies


  • An investigation conducted by the Arizona Department of Education has turned up video apparently showing children crossing the Mexican border to attend school in Arizona.
Guests:
  • Terry Goddard - Arizona Attorney General
  • Tom Horne - Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction
  • Ken Bennett - Senate President


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon", apparent evidence that children from Mexico are crossing the border to attend Arizona schools. A look at Native American education and what's being done to improve it. And Republican legislators are fuming over the governor's vetoes. Those stories are coming up.

>> "Horizon" is made possible by the Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon". An investigation conducted by the Arizona Department of Education has turned up video apparently showing children crossing the Mexican border to attend school in Arizona. We'll show excerpts from that video later in the program. But first, the latest on the Colorado City Unified School District. Joining us to talk about that, the Arizona Attorney General, Terry Goddard, and the Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction, Tom Horne. Gentlemen, thanks for coming.

>> Terri Goddard:
Good to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, why the search warrant last week on Colorado City?

>> Terry Goddard:
a number of reasons but one of the primary was to make sure that when the new law that establishes a receivership for school districts that are in serious financial trouble goes in effect on August 12, we want to make sure all the records are available, assuming the board of education a points as we will petition them to do, a points a receiver for this financially troubled district, we want to make sure the records are there and the receiver is able to start with everything that they need to do the job and to straighten out a real financial mess.

>> Michael Grant:
Not necessarily anything you could have done about it, but obviously they have seen this storm coming for quite some time, you had to move a bill through the legislature.

>> Terry Goddard:
This had all of the stealth of an elephant moving through a cornfield.

>> Michael Grant:
Do you have assurance that in fact you captured the right universe of information or maybe some stuff went out the back door in March?

>> Terry Goddard:
Possible when the legislature was debating this, they saw the writing on the wall, decided to alter documents. I don't know, I can't speculate that. I can tell you our search warrant netted a tremendous amount of material. We're inventorying that.

>> Michael Grant:
Computers.

>> Terry Goddard:
Computers, we'll be able to tell if those computer memories have been wiped. We have good forensics. If it appears there has been destruction we'll have evidence of that. But frankly, I don't think so. Every indication was what we had hoped, they were truly surprised.

>> Michael Grant:
The law approved allows the department of education to step in on fiscal matters, in other words to assume really fiscal control.

>> Tom Horne:
We go to the state board and ask them to appoint a receiver and I've asked Terry as my lawyer to prepare the case.

>> Terry Goddard:
And we're doing it now. We've had our lawyers working. We don't want to waste a minute. The signs have been so egregious, teachers not being paid, allegations of school property being used for private purposes. We think the evidence we have will allow us to confirm or deny most if not all of the allegations.

>> Michael Grant:
You'll do this however through a trustee or receiver and that receiver will be invested with various powers, including but not limited to, I understand, the power to hire and fire.

>> Tom Horne:
Yes, and would be able to essentially take over the district and straighten it out.

>> Michael Grant:
How much information do you have on what's been going wrong up there at this point in time?

>> Terry Goddard:
Before the search warrant was executed, relatively little. There was information which I think you would normally expect to be coming out of any public body, simply was not forth coming from Colorado City.

>> Michael Grant:
The purchase of the plane being the highest profile item. The concern being that those public resources are being used for personal benefit by some school officials.

>> Terry Goddard:
You mentioned the plane, we do have evidence that the plane, payment on the plane were made punctually, when they knew payments to teachers were going to go into default. You really have to question the financial priorities in this particular area. No other school district to my knowledge in Arizona has its own plane. Granted they are a long way from everybody else but this seems excessive when in financial extremes.

>> Tom Horne:
I don't know if your viewers are aware but the teachers' paychecks were bouncing.

>> Terry Goddard:
They, I think, meet the four corners of the new statute the legislature enacted.

>> Michael Grant:
All of that will move into action in mid August, the law takes effect August 12?

>> Terry Goddard:
That's right, and we'll have the petition as soon as Superintendent Tom and the Board of Education is ready to hear it.

>> Michael Grant:
The Arizona Department of Education conducted an investigation into allegations that children are crossing the border at Lukeville to attend Arizona schools. What you are about to see is video shot May 23rd and 25th of this month at the border crossing. The voice you will hear is that of the investigator.

>> Gary Wilbank:
This is Gary, I'm recording the opening of the gate at the Lukeville, at 6:01 a.m. There's the border patrol officers, they're unlocking the gate. Morning. Okay, we have just seen the children that were let out of the car. They are now coming across. Two kids. Three kids. They've got backpacks on. Here come some more children. There's one, two, three, four, five, six kids. Walking across the border. Right now there's two school buses that have positioned themselves at the edge of town. It's May 25, about 6:17. I have been sitting at the border. There is no activity of crossing of any children as of yet. Another car has pulled up here, also. Mexican plates. Children boarding the buses. There they are. One, two, three -- a number of children. A group of children. There's a lot more kids today than there were the other day. For some reason. The buses have number one and number town on them. They have Pima County schools. There's another car that's letting people out. They're blocking off, I can't see. It's one child got off. That may be a local person, I don't know. This is a Hummer with a Mexican plate. The trucks are getting ready to leave. Number two is leaving first. Leaving right now at 6:43. There it goes. That's the end of the buses. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Tom, explain to me your interpretation of what we just saw.

>> Tom Horne:
In order for us to pay state aid for students out of taxpayer funds, of Arizona taxpayers, the students have to be residents of Arizona, people who live in Arizona presumably pay taxes in Arizona. Students who are residents in Mexico regardless of citizenship should go to school in Mexico or if they want to go to school in Arizona should pay tuition. The owners of that Hummer we saw here could probably afford to pay the tuition. But Arizona taxpayers under current law do not pay state aid for people who are not resident of Arizona. Here we saw students coming from Mexico where they live to pick up a bus that, the buses among them take 85 students to school in Ajo so I've taken the position that -- I'm the public official charged with distributing state aid. I'm not going to distribute state aid to students who are not residents of Arizona. We went to addresses of a trailer park, investigators saw the spaces were empty and they had used utility receipts which the county superintendent accepted as evidence of residence and the trailer park admitted they give the receipts.

>> Michael Grant:
The school district says they are not Mexican children in terms of citizen ship, they are children of border guards and others that they are U.S. citizens, what do you think.

>> Tom Horne:
Citizenship is not the issue, the issue is residents. People who reside in Phoenix but are not citizens, children of people who are not here legally get an education under federal law. If they're residents of Mexico, they're not entitled to have an education paid for by Arizona taxpayers. >>

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, are you going to take any action?

>> Terry Goddard:
The superintendent is correct, we can't pay the state stipend. We've been talking about the film and other investigative activities, what they are going to require of the superintendent. She is the one who certifies these students that they're out of district. They are not in the Ajo district if they're in the Lukeville area. She certifies if they can come in. She did an initial, as superintendent Horne said, she checked rent receipts, and they sent mail to the address, whatever it was, that was given. If that mail doesn't return there's a presumption that the kids live at that address. What I think we saw in the film was a rebutting of that presumption. That may be what they told you but it doesn't look like that is true. So she is now, I'm told, in the process of increasing the investigation. They now have reasonable suspicion to increase their investigative requests. That I believe is, what I was told today they were going to initiate.

>> Tom Horne:
I asked her to do home visits to see if people were living at the addresses that were given. She initially refused, but she said if the attorney general says it's okay, she would do it, so she's coming around.

>> Terry Goddard:
I have to convey one request that the film and the investigative report and so on, I'm very anxious to see that and try to identify what students are involved in that crossing.

>> Michael Grant:
If you don't get it, call our producers.

>> Terry Goddard:
I'm relying on my client here and then the right steps will be taken. Other counties have a similar problem and have done a very aggressive job of investigating the home addresses. If students do come from Mexico to this country, they exercise their right to charge.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry Goddard, thank you for joining us, Tom Horne, appreciate it.

>> Tom Horne:
Thank you, Mike.

>> Michael Grant:
For over a century, many attempts to meet the educational needs of Native American students have been unsuccessful despite legislation and numerous government programs, much still needs to be done. Here's a look back at Native American education and what some educational facilities are doing now.


>> Larry Lemmons:
The history of Indian education begins with an effort to a simulate Indian children into mainstream American society. Over the years, educators expected Native American students to fit into a system that was not only foreign to them but in direct conflict with the ways of their people.

>> David Beaulieu:
Its not Indian children specifically being the pop culture, being sort of empty vessels, and in order to have an influence they needed to be removed from the influences of that culture, of the community, the society the in which they were born. Removed from the influence of their parents. Particularly elderly members of their community. And taken off to go to school. Government implemented that in a lot of ways but the major feature was the development of what was called the off reservation boarding school.

>> Larry Lemmons:
These schools systematically separated Indian children from their culture. Once away from their homes their hair was cut, they were forbidden to speak traditional language and their tribal identities were eliminated.

>> David Beaulieu:
It reacted against the idea of having a sameness across the entire curriculum. They recognized Indian people were different in different communities, had different cultures and that a curriculum uniform for all these various communities and all these individuals and students didn't make sense.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The report which was critical of government Indian policies overall, felt that no Indian school met educational requirements. It also found that contrary to the opinion of the time, Indians were capable of an education and should receive all the benefits of one. But, decades later, another report which evolved out of concern for native Americans by Senator Robert Kennedy found that Indian education still had a long way to go.

>> David Beaulieu:
It was through his efforts that they formed what was called a Senate subcommittee on Indian education. That subcommittee held its own hearings and it ultimately moved to develop a series of, a report actually and recommendations, the final report set the tone for what was to occur from that point. And the final report labeled Indian education, a national tragedy, a national challenge. Whatever was going on was not responding to the needs of Indian people and it certainly wasn't working.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The Kennedy report found that on average Indian students were one to two years behind their non-Indian counterparts and found that 60\% would not graduate from high school and indeed most were expected to fail. The report sparked renewed interest in creating reform and several years later the Indian Education Act of 1972 was passed. Although many innovative programs were generated under the act, progress has continued to be slow.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think we have a long ways to go as far as academically getting our Native American students ready to enter the work force and enter into four year colleges and universities.

>> Larry Lemmons:
In an effort to better serve Native American, the Phoenix Union High School District offers programs based on age-old traditions.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
In the Phoenix Union High School District, we have culture camps that we use to bring forward some of the social interactive styles of learning in a natural environment up in the mountains. Native people a lot of times learn through social interaction with their extended family. If the social interaction is brought forward to the classroom, then that acquisition of college of how young people learn will be a lot more relevant. They will pick things up at a quicker pace.

>> Larry Lemmons:
At Phoenix College, another innovative district program, they bring the Navajo language to the students.

>> Jennifer Wheeler:
They are excited coming into the program. We try to do activities that include family participation as well as community activities. They get a lot of the culture. We include the government, Navajo government in our lessons. I think offing this Navajo course serves as a very nice supplemental education.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Approximately 90\% of native American students in the United States are attending public schools and with more native Americans living off the reservation, an increasing number of students will be attending schools off the reservation as well.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think what our educators, our administrators and teachers need to understand that they're going to see more native American youngsters in their classrooms. And that these young people are coming in with different worldviews, different ways to learn, different ways to acquire knowledge. And they have quite a bit to offer society and discussions in classrooms, as well.

>> Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano set a veto record this year, surpassing Jane Hull's 28 bills in 2001 with her own 58. Republican leaders say the vetoes were a breach of trust. A special session might be coming up this summer, but Republicans say future negotiations will be hampered. Joining us now to talk about the next step, the president of the Senate, Ken Bennett, and the House Speaker Jim Weiers. Gentlemen.

>> Ken Bennett:
Michael, good evening.

>> Michael Grant:
Have you calmed down yet?

>> Ken Bennett:
Calmed down. We respect the authority of the governor to veto bills. The fact that she vetoed a bunch of bills this year is not the problem. The problem is that on one specific bill that she and the speaker and I sat in my office on May the 4 or 5, whenever we reached the budget agreement, she had two bills that she was really needing, wanting, asking for. We told her that in order to get the support for those two bills, that was all-day kindergarten and the Phoenix Medical School, that in order to get the support out of the Republican caucuses for those two bills so important to her that we requested and she agreed to sign a bill for what's called corporate tuition tax credit, corporations could donate to a fund that provides scholarships to students. We agreed on those three bills. A week later when we sent the budget up at the end of the session, she signed the two bills that we agreed with her and vetoed the one that we had requested. In the ensuing days, there were allegations or claims of misunderstanding or whatever, but for several days after the agreement she defended the fact that she had agreed to this one bill in exchange for the two bills that she had asked the speaker and I to help get the support for. There was a series of events that actually Jim goes through pretty well, one day it was defending it, the next day was wondering whether she understood it, even though her budget official signed on it, the next day it was a further thing, pretty soon.

>> Jim Weiers:
The point that brings me to the point of fervor, the first excuse was I did what I did, and she was defending obviously to the left of the base of the strong support of hers and made no excuses. I did what I needed to do to get what I needed to get. Everybody got something but it's in a position where nobody is going to be happy. In the end, everybody is going to say something, I didn't like something.

>> Michael Grant:
She says that one of the terms of that deal was a sunset provision. Not a review provision. I'm told one of those legislative bodies agreed with her. One of the legislative agencies agreed it was supposed to be a sunset.

>> Jim Weiers:
I've been asked that question. What did I think, what did I understand it to be? Now it's not what I wanted it to be, it's not what I thought it should be, not what it could be, it's what it was. The language was as clear as you possibly could get. I think there were six narrations to that particular amendment. In each one of those, that never changed. There was never any question, there was never any conversation. There were lots of changes that came about within the final draft of the amendment, that was not one of them. To say that's what I thought it was, that's what it was. When you look at the original legislation, it's not exactly hidden in the bill.

>> Michael Grant:
George Cunningham signed off on that. He said it was an oversight, he read it too fast.

>> Jim Weirs:
Oh, no. That bill, like I said, six iterations. I believe, that particular amendment, there was more oversight. Just scrutiny, fine-tuning than anything. It wasn't something that was just missed. First we heard like Ken says, first, I'm defending what I did. Next is, I didn't quite understand it, it's not what I understood it to be. Third was that it was changed by the leadership at the last minute, making accusation that we went back on our word. And the fourth, always my favorite, tied in to the connection of the Florez. And up to the point her first remarks, her first stance was the correct one.

>> Michael Grant:
I want to get to that, senator, because that's the second issue and we're running out of time. The governor said you breached a deal to work with Democrats to find a solution for the Florez English language learners.

>> Ken Bennett:
It was in my conference room where we committed to the governor that we would address the Florez Bill English Language Learners. But it was never was tied to the budget, all day kindergarten, corporation tuition tax credit and the Phoenix medical school. We agreed later in my conference room that we would not finish the session without addressing the Florez bill but we never agreed after months and months of negotiating the budget that we would turn the entire budget over to yes or no by the minority leadership on one completely unrelated bill. We said we would address that bill, both sides gave and that was never tied to the corporation tuition tax credit.

>> Michael Grant:
We're almost out of time. I know you met with both caucuses today. Is there a special session planned?

>> Ken Bennett:
None at this point. We await the governor's call. We sent up a Florez bill that we think addresses the requirements of the court that she vetoed and played judge and governor simultaneously. We will not have the opportunity to go to the court since she vetoed it. We think the ball is in her court to propose an alternative. On the corporation tuition tax credit, we remain here asking her to keep her word.

>> Michael Grant:
Mr. Weiers thanks for joining us. Ken Bennett, thanks to you, as well.

>> Merry Lucero:
The new state department of health services talks about health care policy issues facing Arizona in 2005 and beyond. Plus, a unique, new 3-D theater environment enables researchers and scientists to provide information to public policy makers. Wednesday on "Horizon"

>> Michael Grant:
Thursday, Governor Janet Napolitano will be with us for her monthly conversation. Friday, join us for the Journalists Roundtable. Thanks for being here on a Tuesday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

school district controversies


  • The Arizona Attorney General is investigating reports of possible financial mismanagement in the Colorado City School District and the Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction says his investigation has confirmed allegations that Mexico residents are attending Arizona schools. Both Terry Goddard and Tom Horne will discuss these issues.
Guests:
  • Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard -
  • Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruct -
  • Senate President Ken Bennett -


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon", apparent evidence that children from Mexico are crossing the border to attend Arizona schools. A look at Native American education and what's being done to improve it. And Republican legislators are fuming over the governor's vetoes. Those stories are coming up.

>> "Horizon" is made possible by the Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon". An investigation conducted by the Arizona Department of Education has turned up video apparently showing children crossing the Mexican border to attend school in Arizona. We'll show excerpts from that video later in the program. But first, the latest on the Colorado City Unified School District. Joining us to talk about that, the Arizona Attorney General, Terry Goddard, and the Arizona Superintendent of Public Instruction, Tom Horne. Gentlemen, thanks for coming.

>> Terri Goddard:
Good to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, why the search warrant last week on Colorado City?

>> Terry Goddard:
a number of reasons but one of the primary was to make sure that when the new law that establishes a receivership for school districts that are in serious financial trouble goes in effect on August 12, we want to make sure all the records are available, assuming the board of education a points as we will petition them to do, a points a receiver for this financially troubled district, we want to make sure the records are there and the receiver is able to start with everything that they need to do the job and to straighten out a real financial mess.

>> Michael Grant:
Not necessarily anything you could have done about it, but obviously they have seen this storm coming for quite some time, you had to move a bill through the legislature.

>> Terry Goddard:
This had all of the stealth of an elephant moving through a cornfield.

>> Michael Grant:
Do you have assurance that in fact you captured the right universe of information or maybe some stuff went out the back door in March?

>> Terry Goddard:
Possible when the legislature was debating this, they saw the writing on the wall, decided to alter documents. I don't know, I can't speculate that. I can tell you our search warrant netted a tremendous amount of material. We're inventorying that.

>> Michael Grant:
Computers.

>> Terry Goddard:
Computers, we'll be able to tell if those computer memories have been wiped. We have good forensics. If it appears there has been destruction we'll have evidence of that. But frankly, I don't think so. Every indication was what we had hoped, they were truly surprised.

>> Michael Grant:
The law approved allows the department of education to step in on fiscal matters, in other words to assume really fiscal control.

>> Tom Horne:
We go to the state board and ask them to appoint a receiver and I've asked Terry as my lawyer to prepare the case.

>> Terry Goddard:
And we're doing it now. We've had our lawyers working. We don't want to waste a minute. The signs have been so egregious, teachers not being paid, allegations of school property being used for private purposes. We think the evidence we have will allow us to confirm or deny most if not all of the allegations.

>> Michael Grant:
You'll do this however through a trustee or receiver and that receiver will be invested with various powers, including but not limited to, I understand, the power to hire and fire.

>> Tom Horne:
Yes, and would be able to essentially take over the district and straighten it out.

>> Michael Grant:
How much information do you have on what's been going wrong up there at this point in time?

>> Terry Goddard:
Before the search warrant was executed, relatively little. There was information which I think you would normally expect to be coming out of any public body, simply was not forth coming from Colorado City.

>> Michael Grant:
The purchase of the plane being the highest profile item. The concern being that those public resources are being used for personal benefit by some school officials.

>> Terry Goddard:
You mentioned the plane, we do have evidence that the plane, payment on the plane were made punctually, when they knew payments to teachers were going to go into default. You really have to question the financial priorities in this particular area. No other school district to my knowledge in Arizona has its own plane. Granted they are a long way from everybody else but this seems excessive when in financial extremes.

>> Tom Horne:
I don't know if your viewers are aware but the teachers' paychecks were bouncing.

>> Terry Goddard:
They, I think, meet the four corners of the new statute the legislature enacted.

>> Michael Grant:
All of that will move into action in mid August, the law takes effect August 12?

>> Terry Goddard:
That's right, and we'll have the petition as soon as Superintendent Tom and the Board of Education is ready to hear it.

>> Michael Grant:
The Arizona Department of Education conducted an investigation into allegations that children are crossing the border at Lukeville to attend Arizona schools. What you are about to see is video shot May 23rd and 25th of this month at the border crossing. The voice you will hear is that of the investigator.

>> Gary Wilbank:
This is Gary, I'm recording the opening of the gate at the Lukeville, at 6:01 a.m. There's the border patrol officers, they're unlocking the gate. Morning. Okay, we have just seen the children that were let out of the car. They are now coming across. Two kids. Three kids. They've got backpacks on. Here come some more children. There's one, two, three, four, five, six kids. Walking across the border. Right now there's two school buses that have positioned themselves at the edge of town. It's May 25, about 6:17. I have been sitting at the border. There is no activity of crossing of any children as of yet. Another car has pulled up here, also. Mexican plates. Children boarding the buses. There they are. One, two, three -- a number of children. A group of children. There's a lot more kids today than there were the other day. For some reason. The buses have number one and number town on them. They have Pima County schools. There's another car that's letting people out. They're blocking off, I can't see. It's one child got off. That may be a local person, I don't know. This is a Hummer with a Mexican plate. The trucks are getting ready to leave. Number two is leaving first. Leaving right now at 6:43. There it goes. That's the end of the buses. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Tom, explain to me your interpretation of what we just saw.

>> Tom Horne:
In order for us to pay state aid for students out of taxpayer funds, of Arizona taxpayers, the students have to be residents of Arizona, people who live in Arizona presumably pay taxes in Arizona. Students who are residents in Mexico regardless of citizenship should go to school in Mexico or if they want to go to school in Arizona should pay tuition. The owners of that Hummer we saw here could probably afford to pay the tuition. But Arizona taxpayers under current law do not pay state aid for people who are not resident of Arizona. Here we saw students coming from Mexico where they live to pick up a bus that, the buses among them take 85 students to school in Ajo so I've taken the position that -- I'm the public official charged with distributing state aid. I'm not going to distribute state aid to students who are not residents of Arizona. We went to addresses of a trailer park, investigators saw the spaces were empty and they had used utility receipts which the county superintendent accepted as evidence of residence and the trailer park admitted they give the receipts.

>> Michael Grant:
The school district says they are not Mexican children in terms of citizen ship, they are children of border guards and others that they are U.S. citizens, what do you think.

>> Tom Horne:
Citizenship is not the issue, the issue is residents. People who reside in Phoenix but are not citizens, children of people who are not here legally get an education under federal law. If they're residents of Mexico, they're not entitled to have an education paid for by Arizona taxpayers. >>

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, are you going to take any action?

>> Terry Goddard:
The superintendent is correct, we can't pay the state stipend. We've been talking about the film and other investigative activities, what they are going to require of the superintendent. She is the one who certifies these students that they're out of district. They are not in the Ajo district if they're in the Lukeville area. She certifies if they can come in. She did an initial, as superintendent Horne said, she checked rent receipts, and they sent mail to the address, whatever it was, that was given. If that mail doesn't return there's a presumption that the kids live at that address. What I think we saw in the film was a rebutting of that presumption. That may be what they told you but it doesn't look like that is true. So she is now, I'm told, in the process of increasing the investigation. They now have reasonable suspicion to increase their investigative requests. That I believe is, what I was told today they were going to initiate.

>> Tom Horne:
I asked her to do home visits to see if people were living at the addresses that were given. She initially refused, but she said if the attorney general says it's okay, she would do it, so she's coming around.

>> Terry Goddard:
I have to convey one request that the film and the investigative report and so on, I'm very anxious to see that and try to identify what students are involved in that crossing.

>> Michael Grant:
If you don't get it, call our producers.

>> Terry Goddard:
I'm relying on my client here and then the right steps will be taken. Other counties have a similar problem and have done a very aggressive job of investigating the home addresses. If students do come from Mexico to this country, they exercise their right to charge.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry Goddard, thank you for joining us, Tom Horne, appreciate it.

>> Tom Horne:
Thank you, Mike.

>> Michael Grant:
For over a century, many attempts to meet the educational needs of Native American students have been unsuccessful despite legislation and numerous government programs, much still needs to be done. Here's a look back at Native American education and what some educational facilities are doing now.


>> Larry Lemmons:
The history of Indian education begins with an effort to a simulate Indian children into mainstream American society. Over the years, educators expected Native American students to fit into a system that was not only foreign to them but in direct conflict with the ways of their people.

>> David Beaulieu:
Its not Indian children specifically being the pop culture, being sort of empty vessels, and in order to have an influence they needed to be removed from the influences of that culture, of the community, the society the in which they were born. Removed from the influence of their parents. Particularly elderly members of their community. And taken off to go to school. Government implemented that in a lot of ways but the major feature was the development of what was called the off reservation boarding school.

>> Larry Lemmons:
These schools systematically separated Indian children from their culture. Once away from their homes their hair was cut, they were forbidden to speak traditional language and their tribal identities were eliminated.

>> David Beaulieu:
It reacted against the idea of having a sameness across the entire curriculum. They recognized Indian people were different in different communities, had different cultures and that a curriculum uniform for all these various communities and all these individuals and students didn't make sense.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The report which was critical of government Indian policies overall, felt that no Indian school met educational requirements. It also found that contrary to the opinion of the time, Indians were capable of an education and should receive all the benefits of one. But, decades later, another report which evolved out of concern for native Americans by Senator Robert Kennedy found that Indian education still had a long way to go.

>> David Beaulieu:
It was through his efforts that they formed what was called a Senate subcommittee on Indian education. That subcommittee held its own hearings and it ultimately moved to develop a series of, a report actually and recommendations, the final report set the tone for what was to occur from that point. And the final report labeled Indian education, a national tragedy, a national challenge. Whatever was going on was not responding to the needs of Indian people and it certainly wasn't working.

>> Larry Lemmons:
The Kennedy report found that on average Indian students were one to two years behind their non-Indian counterparts and found that 60\% would not graduate from high school and indeed most were expected to fail. The report sparked renewed interest in creating reform and several years later the Indian Education Act of 1972 was passed. Although many innovative programs were generated under the act, progress has continued to be slow.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think we have a long ways to go as far as academically getting our Native American students ready to enter the work force and enter into four year colleges and universities.

>> Larry Lemmons:
In an effort to better serve Native American, the Phoenix Union High School District offers programs based on age-old traditions.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
In the Phoenix Union High School District, we have culture camps that we use to bring forward some of the social interactive styles of learning in a natural environment up in the mountains. Native people a lot of times learn through social interaction with their extended family. If the social interaction is brought forward to the classroom, then that acquisition of college of how young people learn will be a lot more relevant. They will pick things up at a quicker pace.

>> Larry Lemmons:
At Phoenix College, another innovative district program, they bring the Navajo language to the students.

>> Jennifer Wheeler:
They are excited coming into the program. We try to do activities that include family participation as well as community activities. They get a lot of the culture. We include the government, Navajo government in our lessons. I think offing this Navajo course serves as a very nice supplemental education.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Approximately 90\% of native American students in the United States are attending public schools and with more native Americans living off the reservation, an increasing number of students will be attending schools off the reservation as well.

>> Ted Ironshaw Hibbler:
I think what our educators, our administrators and teachers need to understand that they're going to see more native American youngsters in their classrooms. And that these young people are coming in with different worldviews, different ways to learn, different ways to acquire knowledge. And they have quite a bit to offer society and discussions in classrooms, as well.

>> Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano set a veto record this year, surpassing Jane Hull's 28 bills in 2001 with her own 58. Republican leaders say the vetoes were a breach of trust. A special session might be coming up this summer, but Republicans say future negotiations will be hampered. Joining us now to talk about the next step, the president of the Senate, Ken Bennett, and the House Speaker Jim Weiers. Gentlemen.

>> Ken Bennett:
Michael, good evening.

>> Michael Grant:
Have you calmed down yet?

>> Ken Bennett:
Calmed down. We respect the authority of the governor to veto bills. The fact that she vetoed a bunch of bills this year is not the problem. The problem is that on one specific bill that she and the speaker and I sat in my office on May the 4 or 5, whenever we reached the budget agreement, she had two bills that she was really needing, wanting, asking for. We told her that in order to get the support for those two bills, that was all-day kindergarten and the Phoenix Medical School, that in order to get the support out of the Republican caucuses for those two bills so important to her that we requested and she agreed to sign a bill for what's called corporate tuition tax credit, corporations could donate to a fund that provides scholarships to students. We agreed on those three bills. A week later when we sent the budget up at the end of the session, she signed the two bills that we agreed with her and vetoed the one that we had requested. In the ensuing days, there were allegations or claims of misunderstanding or whatever, but for several days after the agreement she defended the fact that she had agreed to this one bill in exchange for the two bills that she had asked the speaker and I to help get the support for. There was a series of events that actually Jim goes through pretty well, one day it was defending it, the next day was wondering whether she understood it, even though her budget official signed on it, the next day it was a further thing, pretty soon.

>> Jim Weiers:
The point that brings me to the point of fervor, the first excuse was I did what I did, and she was defending obviously to the left of the base of the strong support of hers and made no excuses. I did what I needed to do to get what I needed to get. Everybody got something but it's in a position where nobody is going to be happy. In the end, everybody is going to say something, I didn't like something.

>> Michael Grant:
She says that one of the terms of that deal was a sunset provision. Not a review provision. I'm told one of those legislative bodies agreed with her. One of the legislative agencies agreed it was supposed to be a sunset.

>> Jim Weiers:
I've been asked that question. What did I think, what did I understand it to be? Now it's not what I wanted it to be, it's not what I thought it should be, not what it could be, it's what it was. The language was as clear as you possibly could get. I think there were six narrations to that particular amendment. In each one of those, that never changed. There was never any question, there was never any conversation. There were lots of changes that came about within the final draft of the amendment, that was not one of them. To say that's what I thought it was, that's what it was. When you look at the original legislation, it's not exactly hidden in the bill.

>> Michael Grant:
George Cunningham signed off on that. He said it was an oversight, he read it too fast.

>> Jim Weirs:
Oh, no. That bill, like I said, six iterations. I believe, that particular amendment, there was more oversight. Just scrutiny, fine-tuning than anything. It wasn't something that was just missed. First we heard like Ken says, first, I'm defending what I did. Next is, I didn't quite understand it, it's not what I understood it to be. Third was that it was changed by the leadership at the last minute, making accusation that we went back on our word. And the fourth, always my favorite, tied in to the connection of the Florez. And up to the point her first remarks, her first stance was the correct one.

>> Michael Grant:
I want to get to that, senator, because that's the second issue and we're running out of time. The governor said you breached a deal to work with Democrats to find a solution for the Florez English language learners.

>> Ken Bennett:
It was in my conference room where we committed to the governor that we would address the Florez Bill English Language Learners. But it was never was tied to the budget, all day kindergarten, corporation tuition tax credit and the Phoenix medical school. We agreed later in my conference room that we would not finish the session without addressing the Florez bill but we never agreed after months and months of negotiating the budget that we would turn the entire budget over to yes or no by the minority leadership on one completely unrelated bill. We said we would address that bill, both sides gave and that was never tied to the corporation tuition tax credit.

>> Michael Grant:
We're almost out of time. I know you met with both caucuses today. Is there a special session planned?

>> Ken Bennett:
None at this point. We await the governor's call. We sent up a Florez bill that we think addresses the requirements of the court that she vetoed and played judge and governor simultaneously. We will not have the opportunity to go to the court since she vetoed it. We think the ball is in her court to propose an alternative. On the corporation tuition tax credit, we remain here asking her to keep her word.

>> Michael Grant:
Mr. Weiers thanks for joining us. Ken Bennett, thanks to you, as well.

>> Merry Lucero:
The new state department of health services talks about health care policy issues facing Arizona in 2005 and beyond. Plus, a unique, new 3-D theater environment enables researchers and scientists to provide information to public policy makers. Wednesday on "Horizon"

>> Michael Grant:
Thursday, Governor Janet Napolitano will be with us for her monthly conversation. Friday, join us for the Journalists Roundtable. Thanks for being here on a Tuesday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

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