Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

June 12, 2008


Host: Ted Simons

Employer Sanctions Ruling

  |   Video
  • Arizona's law that prohibits the intentional hiring of illegal immigrants gets a hearing before the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. Arizona Capitol Media Services reporter Howard Fischer will provide an update.
Guests:
  • Howard Fischer - Arizona Capital Media Services
Category: Immigration

View Transcript
>>>Larry Lemmons:
Good evening, welcome to "Horizon." I'm Larry Lemmons in for Ted Simons. The ninth circuit court of appeals in San Francisco held a hearing this morning on Arizona's employer sanctions law. Here by phone to tell us more about the court's hearing is Arizona Capital Media Services Reporter Howard Fischer. Howie, I was reading some of your dispatches from the front earlier today, and it sounded like the court was leaning a little bit on the state side.

>>Howard Fischer:
Exactly. The real problem becomes for the challengers that they have to convince a federal judge or in this case three federal judges that there is no way the state can in any way regulate employers and who they hire, particularly the issue of illegal immigration. Now, federal law does say generally immigration is a federal issue. But the law also says that the state may impose sanctions on employers' licenses, which is exactly what the Arizona law does. It says if you're found guilty of having knowingly hired undocumented workers, a state judge may suspend or revoke your license. Despite that, a variety of business and civil rights groups have sued, saying the state has stepped over its ground and so what's happened now is that these groups have challenged the law but I'll tell you, I was listening to the questions from the three judges today and they don't sound convinced that in fact Arizona has done anything illegal.

>>Larry Lemmons:
And, you know, as I said, yeah, I could really tell that from your article what. Did the people bringing the suit, how did they feel about being confronted in such a way by the judges?

>>Howard Fischer:
Well, it obviously depends on what you talk to. For example, I talked to attorney David Felton who represents some of the business groups, and he tried his spin, if you will, was to say well of course the judges are always going to pose sharp questions so they understand the issues, but I also talked to David Jones, president of the Arizona contractors association, and he said, well, it didn't exactly go very well for us today and in fact if the ninth circuit upholds the legality of the law which is what the judge did in phoenix last year, then I guess we have to go to the U.S. Supreme court.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Do you anticipate that, U.S. Supreme Court?

>>Howard Fischer:
Well, I think either way this will end up as a petition for review for the Supreme Court. There's just so much writing here. Obviously you have the backers of the bill, much crafted by Representative Russell Pearce, would believed that the state can only do so much to deal with illegal immigration. They can't cut up fences and cannot put up their own D.P.S. on the board, but they can say we're going to dry up the magnet. What's bringing people here are the jobs and it's very possible that 500,000 to 600,000 Arizona residents, which is perhaps one out of every six or seven, is here illegally and clearly holding jobs. His feeling is if we make it enough of a punishment for companies to knowingly hire illegals, as Russell likes to put it, when they close down the rides at Disneyland, the people go home. So obviously if the law is overturned, Russell and the state will appeal. If the law is upheld, the businesses who don't want to face what they call the death penalty of having their licenses suspended or revoked will appeal to the Supreme Court.

>>Larry Lemmons:
What about the argument that was mentioned that having this sort of employer sanctions law will create a vulcanization of immigration law, that you'll have different states with different laws that it will be very difficult for international or national companies.

>>Howard Fischer:
That's certainly a possibility but it's not unusual. Every state has different laws, for example, what's taxable. Labor laws are different in let's say California where I am now versus in Arizona, minimum wage laws, things like that. And so everything is different. Is it a big problem for a company to do that? I don't know. I mean, the fact is when you hire people, if you use the E-Verify Database the federal government has, you can go ahead and check if people are here illegally, and that's what the state law requires, if you don't use the E-Verify System and if you're found guilty, guess what, you're going to wind up in trouble.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Quickly, Howie, one more question. When can we expect a ruling?

>>Howard Fischer:
This could take weeks at least. We've been up here on the Flores case and the fact is that those English language learner case rulings tend to take two to three months. I think something this complex I think the judges will want to make sure they've got all their "T's" crossed and "I's" dotted because they know whoever loses will appeal to a higher court.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Thank you very much, Howie Fischer from Capitol Media Services.

John Dean/Barry Goldwater Jr. book

  |   Video
  • Watergate figure John Dean and Barry Goldwater Jr. have written a book about Barry Goldwater Senior. The two talk about their book and the late Senator Goldwater.
Guests:
  • Howard Fischer - Arizona Capital Media Services
  • Tom Boone - Republican State Representative, House majority leader
  • Phil Lopes - Democratic State Representative, House minority leader


View Transcript
>>>Larry Lemmons:
There's arguably no more iconic figure in Arizona history than Barry Goldwater. The late senator defined American conservatism for a generation and for more than 50 years he kept a journal. That's the source for a new book by his son, former Congressman Barry Goldwater Jr. And Watergate figure John Dean. "Pure Goldwater" reveals the senator's private thoughts on Richard Nixon and the Republican Party among other things. Ted Simons talked to Dean and Goldwater recently about their collaboration.

>>Ted Simons:
Good to have you both on the program. Thanks so much for joining us. Barry, before we get started on the book, you two guys have known each other quite a while, haven't you?

>>Barry Goldwater Jr:
We go back to high school in Virginia. We were roommates. We swam on the all American record breaking swimming team and we've been friends ever since. We served together in Washington, D.C., John was in the White House, and I was in Congress. And then John's now in California and I'm in Arizona but we stay in touch and we wrote this book, "Pure Goldwater," together.

>>Ted Simons:
Indeed. Let's get to the book. Based greatly on journals and private records from your father, where were these found? How long have you been aware that they existed?

>>John Dean:
I guess I'm the best source on that since I found them so to speak. The senator and I when Barry would call from time to time I'd say how's your dad doing now that he's out of the Senate. He'd say well he's bored at hell, why don't you call him and talk to him. He just enjoys talking to you and it would be good for him. So he and I were doing that and the senator had become very distressed in the early '90s, what happened to conservatism and the conservative movement he felt so responsible for. He said you know, John, I'd like to do a book to explain what's happening, explain my unhappiness with what's happening, because he could tell from my conversations I was equally as unhappy. So we started on a book based on our conversations which would be titled "Conservatives Without Conscience," a great play on his classic conscience of the conservative.

>>Barry Goldwater Jr.
Which you published later.

>>John Dean:
Which I did. His health got bad and I could tell it was going to be a burden to do the book at that time, so I said listen, senator, let's put this on the shelf and do it later when you're feeling better, and he didn't. But I picked up the book and in the course of our conversations the senator said, listen, there are a lot of papers that nobody seems to have looked at where I kept records of things and low and behold, when I went back to do the book I found this private journal he'd kept literally from the time Barry was born, his first son, until shortly before his death. Initially started on a portable typewriter, out in the hills of Arizona making records and notes and things and reactions, and then later when electronic dictation equipment came and he was a passenger in an airplane, occasionally when he's flying the airplane, he dictates his thoughts about Washington policy, politics, what have you. So while it's not consistent, it's not daily, much to his own chagrin, as he repeatedly says to himself, he does keep a diary that is a significant body of work. So I got the Arizona Historical Foundation to see if they couldn't sift it out because it was not well filed and they began finding these entries and when I found them I called Barry, I said listen, this stuff's pure gold. In fact it's pure Goldwater because it's not staff, not speech writers, not ghosts. This is your father's voice. And my wife, for example, Maureen, who had known the senator, when she first read the manuscript she said, you know, I really hear his voice. So that's why it's been a delight to do and we're getting the same feedback from others who have read the book now.

>>Ted Simons:
Barry, this is your father and these are things that were not released and I'm assuming that they were initially private. But I'm assuming that he knew that eventually this stuff would get out. But again, talking private diaries and journals, were you uncomfortable seeing the stuff get out?

>>Barry Goldwater Jr:
No, not at all. I think the world needs to hear from Senator Goldwater. They probably don't get enough of him, as to what America's about. He helped define the Republican Party back in the '60s and '70s, was one of its leaders, he defined it in terms of what a conservative is all about. And this is why later on when evangelicals began to redefine conservatism he got upset. But I think he would want people -- he was a public person, and he spoke and he wrote and he would have no problem.

>>Ted Simons:
Was there anything in the journals in the diaries, anything there that surprised you?

>>Barry Goldwater Jr:
Just, well, I was surprised that he even kept them. I had heard about it but I was surprised.

>>John Dean:
Your reactions to me, if I might, were when I told him that did you know your father had been offered the vice-presidency by Gerald Ford, something nobody ever recorded in history, and Barry said no, he never told the family lift probably told my mother Peggy but never told the family Ford -- the first person ford offer the vice-presidency to is Goldwater, he turns it down because he thinks he'll be more effective in the Senate. He thinks the party needs to be rebuilt. He thinks while he could be a good vice president, he tells Ford, you know, I think I could be more important to the party and the country as really staying where I am in the Senate.

>>Barry Goldwater Jr:
There's a lot of gems in this book "Pure Goldwater" that John and I have put together. He served under seven presidents, coming in with Eisenhower, when he became friendly with Richard Nixon, and started a lifelong friendship that resulted in total destruction because the president Nixon lied to him and disappointed him greatly, but he served under Eisenhower, he thought was a good president, but not very good at politics. He also felt Eisenhower was too much influenced by the eastern liberal establishment. John Kennedy and he were personal friends and there's a lot of their relationship in "Pure Goldwater."

>>John Dean:
He's not shy about saying even to his -- about his close friends because he would say the same to them that he was putting in his journal.

>>Ted Simons: Regarding J.F.K. was there not a point at which they both agreed that in '64 obviously never happened but that they would barnstorm together? Did I get that correct?

>>John Dean: That was the plan the he talks about it and in fact the Kennedy family later would talk about how the fact that the two of them planned to run against each other, lease an airplane, not go into the studios with makeup and television cameras, but rather get out and literally on the stumps at airports, draw the crowds out and just have a Lincoln-Douglas style debate which as you know is not staged, moderated questions, but an ongoing exchange where the two debating people take the debate where they want to go and into the subjects they think are important. And just think how that might have changed modern politics had they done that and because it would have been very, you know, very dramatic even then, and they, you know this is I think when Kennedy was assassinated is when Goldwater really didn't want to be president anymore.

>>Ted Simons:
His thoughts, Goldwater's thoughts by way of these diaries on Richard Nixon.

>>John Dean:
This was the big surprise to me is how much material was in there on Nixon and Watergate. This is probably the most voluminous at least of the material that has been preserved and maintained and we put a good bit in the book because his relationship with Nixon goes from '53 until long after Nixon's out of office and down in San Clemente and has after resign's, but his thinking on Watergate evolves, he asks me at one point over at Barry's house, after not long after the break-in and arrest, he says Nixon White House involved in this? I said to the best of my knowledge, no. That would be the same answer I would give him today. But he never pressed me and interesting thing did happen, before I testified I called Barry one time, I said listen, Barry, and I really need to talk to your dad. I'm not going to involve him in any way in this because I'm not going to compromise him but I need to talk to him because then he was the ranking member on the Senate Intelligence Committee, and I said I'm going to blow the president out of the water, right out of the oval office with my testimony if it ultimately is corroborated and I said I don't want to do something that will cause a national security problem, and so I need to know, so I talked to the senator about it and he said, john, he said, he said you go in there and tell the truth, just the way you know it, and blow the son of a bitch out of the office.

>>Ted Simons:
What is a Goldwater conservative?

>>Barry Goldwater Jr.
Well, these are core values that span history and it's based on the recognition of the individual, that this country was founded on freedom, freedom of the individual to express his own feelings, to climb his own ladder, to take care of himself, and a conservative believes that we as a nation function better if we allow this individual to be as free as possible, so if we recognize that we need government for certain things, but we want to limit that government and limit the regulations and the taxation on the creative genius of the individual, on the foreign policy side, a conservative believes that the constitution mandates that we keep a strong national defense, being prepared to defend our liberties. It's that simple.

>>John Dean:
You know, I actually learned more about his philosophy working on conservatives without conscience, where if you want to boil it down to a sound bite. He said a conservative is somebody who draws from the wisdom of the past and applies it to the present and the future.

>>Ted Simons:
You have written many becomes especially of late critical of folks who consider themselves conservatives now. Are they not Goldwater conservatives?

>>John Dean:
They certainly are not.

>>Ted Simons:
How come?

>>John Dean:
First, the leading example Barry alluded to is when the religious right became active in the Republican Party, initially it was Jimmy Carter who attracted the evangelical movement into politics. They decided they didn't like his politics but they wanted to stay and play, they helped elect Reagan and this time Goldwater begins having trouble with them, for example when Sandra Day O'Connor, his Arizona neighbor, friend, former legislator, good judge at that point, selected by -- I don't know exactly all the back room talk between Reagan and Goldwater on her selection process, but clearly she was his candidate. And when Falwell, Jerry Falwell of the religious right came out and said I think all good Christians should have reservations about voting for or approving Sandra Day O'Connor he famously said I think all good Christians should kick Jerry Falwell in the ass. As I clarified based on a later conversation, he actually didn't refer to that part of the anatomy. It was a little more to the front. But the press translated it. But so the press did sometimes modify and clean up some of his language.

>>Ted Simons:
Last question, we're running out of time, would Barry Goldwater today, your father, would he be a libertarian?

>>Barry Goldwater Jr:
I would think so.

>>Ted Simons:
What do you think John?

>>John Dean:
I think so too. You know, I found it repeatedly when we were digging through the papers and it comes up also on C.C. Goldwater's documentary of her grandfather, he calls himself a liberal. He said when history looks back at me they're going to call me a liberal and he's talking about classic liberalism.

>>Ted Simons:
We'll stop it right there. Fascinating stuff. Thank you both for joining us, we appreciate it.

>>John Dean:
Thank you.

state Budget

  |   Video
  • state representatives Tom Boone and Phil Lopes talk about the state budget and the lack of progress on it.
Guests:
  • Tom Boone - Republican State Representative, House majority leader
  • Phil Lopes - Democratic State Representative, House minority leader


View Transcript
>>>Larry Lemmons:
Well still no state budget for the fiscal year, some blame the continued absence of Senate President Tim Bee, campaigning for Congress, others say it's because Republicans want more cuts than Democrats and the governor are willing to accept. Here to talk about the state budge and other issues, Republican Representative Tom Boone, house majority leader, and Democratic Representative Leader Phil Lopes, minority leader in the House. Thank you for making the trip to Tempe to talk about the budget that's not happening so far. Representative Boone, where are we so far?

>>Tom Boone:
I think you introduced it as still no progress, no budget. And that's true. We're not finished yet. But I think we need to put it in perspective. When we came into the session, we came in with a current year budget problem in addition to a new year budget problem, new year next year '09, went from $600 million shortfall in august of this year up to 1.2 billion and then finally when we put together an '08 budget it was actually a solution that was $1.37 billion that actually is probably going to grow to around 1.4, 1.5. So it was a very complex solution because it was a moving target. Same for '09, our economy's deteriorating and we've been very deliberate in how we're going about solving the budget problems for '09. So you may not think there's progress because you don't see anything yet, but we're being very deliberate in our process and I think the Arizona people should expect that of us because we've made a lot of progress in areas like education, for example, increased funding and k12 into the classroom and don't want to undo those kind of things. So I want them to expect us to be deliberate in going about this, crafting a solution that works.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Sorry to interrupt. Representative Lopes, as representative Boone was saying, a moving target, do you agree with that?

>>Phil Lopes:
I do agree with that. But what we've done I think that makes sense given that moving target is we've set ourselves a number of what the deficit is. Now when we set that number, some months ago, that's now changed. But continuing to use that same number and understanding we'll have to make some adjustments as we go along is a normal part of this process.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Do you agree with some of the criticism coming from some quarters that the Senator Bee's absence has been causing perhaps an extension of his budget process?

>>Phil Lopes
What's caused the extension of the budget process is that the Republicans, Mr. Boone, is -- has taken some time that he thinks he needs in order to reach some consensus among his members, so I'm not sure I would blame any one thing for this delay. And the other part of it too is even when we do get together, it's very difficult to reach some consensus, and I know the public sometimes says, you know, why can't these guys just, you know, decide this thing, it should be fairly easy. Well, I would remind people who feel that way, to remember the last time the family tried to decide what movie to go to or what to have for dinner, it's not as easy as it seems from the outside.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Senator Bee's absence, is that a problem?

>>Tom Boone:
No, it hasn't been a problem at all. In fact Phil mentioned we had taken some time to go back to our members, and we've done that in both the House and Senate. And the reason for that is the changing number, you know, we did agree about $1.9 billion is what we're looking at in terms of agreed upon number at this point for '09. But we'll probably end up crafting a solution I would suspect like '08 that has some flexibility and quite honestly we've taken the time to poll members again because the basic difference if you will of opinion has been between the Democrats and the governor on one side, wanting more borrowing and not making spending reductions, and on the Republican side making more reductions to help balance our revenues and expenditures. I think that -- I think that there's no question in my mind that we'll be back at this at least one more time in '09, because there's just too many variables, too many things changing, and I think even to change a number like 1.9 now, I'm not so sure we need to do that, even because I think we all need to realize going into '09 we're going to be back at this at least one more time.

>>Larry Lemmons:
This might be a diverse, but I have read, Senator Jay and Carolyn Allen, both Republicans, were complaining about what they might see as the politicization of this process, rather than focusing on the budget. Republicans are focusing on getting Senator Bee elected.

>>Tom Boone:
Well, again, Senator Bee there's a lot of people running for office down there right now.

>>Phil Lopes:
Everybody.

>>Tom Boone:
Everybody. Nearly everybody's running for office. And I'm sure individuals think about, you know, their elections of course. But in terms of Senator Bee specifically, it has not held up our process in any way. We've gone on with our members and the Senate's gone on with our members, and there's many times that all of us aren't there for every single meeting, just happens that way. But the process goes on and it has gone on. It hasn't affected it one bit.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Representative Lopes, would you agree with Representative Boone, primarily Democrats and governor want to borrow money and Republicans want to cut spending?

>>Phil Lopes:
That is one way to describe it. But I think it's slightly more complex than that. It's both ideological than I think practical. The ideological part of it is that Democrats generally speaking want -- see this as a problem that needs to be solved. We have insufficient revenues for the programs that we want to keep and grow as Mr. Boone says, we've made some real progress in the last few years, and we want to keep that up. And so we see that as a problem that needs to be managed. And I would characterize the Republican position as one of pursuing an ideological agenda which is one of cutting the size of government. They see the cuts as ways of -- as a way to cut the size of government, which is an ideological position. We, on the other hand, are trying to fix this thing without making sacrifices that we have fought very hard over the last few years to achieve. So I think the delay is several things, both ideological and practical.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Go ahead. You want to comment on that?

>>Tom Boone:
I was just going to situate in terms of manage, of course, it's a management problem. We're going to have to manage the budget. But in so managing I think we need to recognize that if revenues continue to stagnate and or go down, I mean, expenditure levels have to go down. You simply can't continue to borrow and borrow and borrow, because there has to be a way in the foreseeable future of paying it back, otherwise you'd be managing the state basically into a situation where a huge tax increase is going to be necessary to even balance the budget. and that's what we want to avoid because we believe that would hurt the prosperity of Arizona significantly if that happens.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Excuse me.

>> Larry Lemmons:
We only have about 15 seconds, do you anticipate a summer session?

>>Phil Lopes:
No, I don't anticipate a summer session because it's an election year and we're all running for office. As we've pointed out. But I do expect that there may need to be a special session either later on this calendar year or early in the next session, because as Mr. Boone mentions, this is a moving target and we may have to come back and fix it some more.

>>Tom Boone:
We agree upon that.

>>Larry Lemmons:
Ok, Representative Lopes and Representative Boone, thanks for joining us.

>>Tom Boone:
Thank You.

>>Phil Lopes:
You're welcome.

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