Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

May 19, 2005


Host: Michael Grant

Macbeth


  • And "Macbeth" is playing at the Arizona Theater Company. We'll give you a preview of the show.
Guests:
  • Mike Hutchinson - City Manager, Mesa
  • Clint Bolick - Strategic litigation counsel, Institute for Justice


View Transcript
>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," the Riverview project in Mesa has been approved by voters there. We'll talk to Mesa's city manager about the next steps for the project. The United States Supreme Court has ruled that wine sales across state lines are permitted. We'll talk to a lawyer who assisted in the case. And "Macbeth" is playing at the Arizona Theater Company. We'll give you a preview of the show. More on those topics, next, on "Horizon."


>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friend of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.


>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon." A merger deal between America West Airlines and U.S. Airways has taken off, but it's a long way from landing. The two airlines announced today a complex $1.5 billion deal, which would create the nation's fifth largest carrier. But for the next two or three years, the airlines will continue to operate separately. The deal would keep the headquarters in Tempe, but the name of the merged company would be U.S. Airways. America West chairman and CEO Doug Parker will run the airline. Parker said the motivation for the deal is to create the first full-service, nationwide, low-cost airline. The deal still faces many hurdles, including the approvals of the Federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board, which is still owed $1 billion from loans to both airlines after September 11th. The combined airlines have 38,000 employees, a number likely to shrink with consolidation. It was a smooth liftoff for the Riverview project in Mesa. Voters approved three propositions by a 56\% to 44\% margin, giving about $80 million in tax rebates to Kimco Developers and De Rito Partners Development. Foes of the project had put the measures on the ballot in an effort to stop it. The developers will build a retail project on a 250-acre site at Dobson Road and the Loop 202. The retail project will include a Bass Pro Shop, a Wal-Mart and theaters. Here now to tell us what's next for the Riverview project is Mike Hutchinson, Mesa's city manager. It's good to see you again.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Good to see you Mike.


>> Michael Grant:
Bass Pro, they just set people's hearts on fire if you are an outdoors guy?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
They are big. I didn't know a lot about them until two years ago when we were introduced to them, and they are in an expansion mode throughout the country, and it really is a unique shopping experience for all kinds of sports people. They start out in the hunting and fishing area, but they now have some other lines that they promote, and it really is a destination for people coming, traveling in our area and certainly throughout the State of Arizona.


>> Michael Grant:
That was the way it was described to me, sort of as a destination Disneyland for outdoor enthusiasts and you said as well, they are also into other sports as well?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yeah, it's amazing. They have the flagship store in Missouri, and then they built -- the newest one just opened in Las Vegas. They are expanding throughout the country, and really, we think we'll be an attraction, as I said, for people that travel to Mesa throughout the State of Arizona. That's one of the reasons why we're interested in them. We want people to come to our community and to shop and eat and dine and stay.


>> Michael Grant:
And have fun. Mike, I've got to tell you, if you had given me this hypothetical, big subsidies in Scottsdale put to a vote, big subsidies in Mesa put to a vote, which one is going to pass, I would have said, I don't know, is there a question here? Now, what the heck happened that Mesa voters put thumbs up on this, and Scottsdale voters say just absolutely no way to big box stores at Los Arcos?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
I think one of the appeals is it really is more than just a big box center. It has the Bass Pro component, but it has a theater complex with a theater district, which will include restaurants and other businesses, plus of the major retail piece, which will include some big boxes, and then there is an auto piece and on the far east side of the site, there is some land for industrial-commercial development. So it really is a bigger project.


>> Michael Grant:
Mesa had taken a run at the stadium location in that general area. Was the local attitude toward this project significantly different than with the local attitude had been toward the stadium project a couple three years ago?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yes, there was intensive debate about whether or not the Cardinals' stadium would be an asset. It was split, but some people thought it wouldn't be. But this project has the, I would say widespread support from immediate neighbors, and in the northwest section of the community, and they were very active in this recent campaign, talking about the need for those types of amenities in their part of the community, their support of it. They like the opportunities for jobs, their families, for people to come into that area. So really a positive response from the neighbors. I've got to credit the developers. They worked very carefully with the neighbors through the zoning process to make sure it was something that they would be proud of and would be designed properly and be an asset for the community.


>> Michael Grant:
I didn't follow the campaign closely, but I understand one of the other issues raised by the opponents is this will be a death knell for fiesta mall on southern. Did that play heavily as well?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It was brought up as part of the campaign. It was a heated campaign, lots of ideas and issues thrown both ways.


>> Michael Grant:
Divided father and son from time to time.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yes, in the Rose family, but we've done a lot of work in the last couple of years with the Fiesta Mall owners. Now they have a new owner, Westcor. That area will transition. There will be different uses there, but with the Fiesta Mall still being a strong mall with the community college going to expand, the hospital in that area, we think the future is very bright, and we are, as a city, going to be an active partner with the business community to help ensure that.


>> Michael Grant:
Is the political side of this over? I read a story today, I will be the first to admit to you, I didn't fully understand what was going on, but as I understand it, an initiative drive is now being written up in the city's charter to prohibit subsidies. Have I got that somewhere right?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yes, we were surprised to hear about that, too. Apparently there is some suggestion it will be retroactive to this particular project, which there may be some legal issues with that. We haven't really done any full legal exploration of that, yet, because it was just discussed in the media today, but, you know, it's an interesting twist, and it's an interesting issue.


>> Michael Grant:
Let's assume that it goes forward. What is the timetable -- give me the major benchmarks anticipated here.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It's really exciting, because the developer is really poised to go. I drove by the site coming over here tonight from Mesa, and there are earth movers on the site and they are starting to do some of the initial grading work for the theater and the theater district, and so that's really the first phase. The Cinemark who will be the theater owner and operator is hopefully going to break ground on their theater in July or August. They hope to be open the first quarter of next year. That'll be followed by the restaurants and other amenities to the district. The Bass Pro folks are starting in their design work. They do a very intensive design effort with the community, so they've started those preliminary issues and going through the zoning process. There has been some interest on the industrial-commercial piece that's started. So I think things will move quickly. We're poised as city staff to go as fast as we can to help the developer go through the process. It's a big project, but one that we think will pay a lot of dividends for our city.


>> Michael Grant:
Some question about whether or not Wal-Mart will actually be there?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Well, I think they'll be there. They have an older store about a mile south on Main Street that they've talked about -- that they need a larger facility, a super Wal-Mart. So my sense is they'll be in the project, but they haven't made those final lease agreements yet. They are still talking to a variety of potential tenets, but my sense is Wal-Mart will be part of the project.


>> Michael Grant:
Now, this is Dobson, Mike, and the 202. Give me a proximity location in relation to Dobson and the 202. Southwest?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It's just south of the 202. As you get off Dobson Road on both sides -- you get off 202 at Dobson, on both sides of Dobson will be the project. Immediately to the west will be the auto mall part of the project, and then to the east will be the Bass Pro, the theater district and other retail. It's a large site, about 240 acres, so it'll take them several years to get all of the development.


>> Michael Grant:
It's called "Riverview" is that figuratively speaking or is there a literal component.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
You are pretty close to the river.


>> Michael Grant:
Well, yeah.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It was flowing again recently. But you know, we have a park down there by the name of Riverview Park and we have a golf course named Riverview golf course that have been long-standing amenities for those.


>> Michael Grant:
But absent the release from the Salt River Project, there is no plans to, for example, do a Mesa town lake similar to Tempe Town Lake?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
No plans, Mike. It's an evolving project.


>> Michael Grant:
I understand. You could probably have another vote on whether or not you want a Mesa town lake. Mike Hutchinson, appreciate your stopping by and talking about it. I guess we'll keep an eye on that initiative movement and a couple of legal issues surrounding it.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Thanks, Mike.


>> Michael Grant:
It's now legal to sell wines across state lines, that, after a ruling this week by the United States Supreme Court. We'll talk to a lawyer, who assisted in the ruling, but first, more about the decision.


>> Mike Sauceda:
The United States Supreme Court ruled on Monday that wine can be purchased directly from out of state vineyards. The purchase of out of state wines has grown because of Internet sales in a 5-4 decision the Supreme Court overturned laws in New York and Michigan which supporters said were meant to protect local wineries. Arizona is among 24 states that have laws that bar interstate wine shipments. In the opinion, the court said that states have broad opinion to regulate the sale of liquor, however, the Court ruled that the regulatory powers do not extend to barring interstate sales of wine while allowing sales within a state. The court said that those state bans are discriminatory and anti-competitive. The court made the decision based on 21st amendment, which ended prohibition and granted states the power to regulate alcohol sales. Although the ruling applies to wine, it is expected it will apply to beer and to liquor.


>> Michael Grant:
Here now to tell us more about the wine ruling is Clint Bolick. Bolick is the strategic litigation counsel for the Washington, D.C.-based Institute for Justice. The Institute for Justice represented winery owners in Virginia and California, as well as New York consumers. Well, Clint, congratulations on the case.


>> Clint Bolick:
Thank you, let the good wines roll.


>> Michael Grant:
What role did the Institute for Justice play in the case?


>> Clint Bolick:
We filed the lawsuit against the state of New York, which is the second largest wine consuming state in the country, and we took the case all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court last December I argued that case.


>> Michael Grant:
This is a tension between the 21st amendment to the United States constitution, which is the one that repealed prohibition, and the interstate commerce clause. Why don't you take it from there and kind of set up what was happening?


>> Clint Bolick:
Well, we would not have had a constitution if there was no commerce clause guaranteeing free trade among the states, but when the prohibition was lifted, the States were given broad authority over alcohol distribution. So those two constitutional provisions clashed, and they led to a 5-4 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court.


>> Michael Grant:
And a very interesting makeup in the 5 and 4.


>> Clint Bolick:
Absolutely unprecedented. Conservatives and liberals on both sides of the divide.


>> Michael Grant:
Now, now states can still -- this was saying, yes, states have broad power to regulate all aspects of liquor transactions, sale, distribution, that kind of thing, but if the State does it discriminatorily, it's not an appropriate exercise of state power under the 21st amendment and instead violates the interstate commerce clause. So if you allow wine to be shipped, you can't favor your in-state winery over out of state wineries, but a state could still just prohibit it across the board, right?


>> Clint Bolick:
That's right. States can regulate alcohol however they wish but by one set of rules, not by two.


>> Michael Grant:
Now, what did the dissent -- intuitively, that seems to me to be the correct results, but you obviously had four Supreme Court justices disagreeing with me and obviously disagreeing with you. What did the dissent offer as justification for no, that would be okay?


>> Clint Bolick:
Really just saying that 21st amendment is clear in its amendment. It gives primary authority to the states, so whatever they do, even if it's outright economic protectionism and Mike, that's what's going on here, is protection for the middleman, the liquor distributors who control the distribution of alcohol in these states, even that's okay, and obviously, the 5 and the majority said, no, listen, the 21st amendment does give the states broad power to protect public health against underage access but this has nothing to do with those objectives. This has everything to do about protecting an inefficient bloated profit-taking monopoly.


>> Michael Grant:
Let me cycle back to the point you made just a couple of seconds ago, that this really was a protection for the distributors. Explain that a little bit more.


>> Clint Bolick:
Well, in most states, most alcohol is distributed by middlemen, distributors who, in the case of wine, take 30\% of the cost of every bottle of wine. For small wineries that simply doesn't work. There are over three thousand wineries in the United States today and there is not remotely enough shelf space. If you visit a little winery in California and you try to find it when you come back here to Arizona, good luck, no way are you going to find it.


>> Michael Grant:
Sure.


>> Clint Bolick:
So the distributors, though, they want every drop of wine to flow through their profit-taking grasp, and so they sustain these laws, and they fight against the direct shipment of wine to consumers through the Internet or from direct orders from the winery.


>> Michael Grant:
I suspect the answer to this question is a little bit of both, but I'll ask it anyway. Is there also a component involved here of just simply a state trying to protect its own domestic or promote its own domestic industry?


>> Clint Bolick:
Absolutely. That's why you have two sets of rules in so many states. The states often want to protect their liquor distributors, but they also want to protect their own wine industry. Today every single state has wineries, including, of course, Arizona, and so the states want to promote that. So the way they accomplish both objectives is to say in-state wineries can ship to consumers but not out of state wineries.


>> Michael Grant:
You were telling me that New York -- I would think New York is the very last state to have a winery, but apparently you were saying they have a couple of wine growing regions?


>> Clint Bolick:
It's a flourishing wine production state, over 100 wineries in the state of New York. They want to sell to people in other states, you know, people come visit the finger lakes or whatever, and they want to order New York wine, and they can't sell it. So they were on our side. The only people really against us in these lawsuits, aside from the states themselves, were the liquor distributors.


>> Michael Grant:
So generally, and in particular, many of the small wineries, very supportive of it, because they won't have the kind of muscle that -- I'm going to toss out -- Gallo -- illustratively to get those out.


>> Clint Bolick:
That's right, our client, a woman who owns a winery in Virginia, if you go to her winery, she is planting the grapes, harvesting the grapes, making the wine, and if you call her a winery, she'll answer the phone as well. And there is no way she can go up against these powerful behemoths.


>> Michael Grant:
Ok, well let's get to the State of Arizona. I understand there is some confusion about whether or not Arizona's law is valid or not under this ruling; correct?


>> Clint Bolick:
That's right. The State contends that it does not allow in-state wineries to ship to consumers, but in fact they do. The State has allowed them to do so. To the extent it's discriminatory, then the law is invalid. I think the best way to resolve this is through legislative action, but, Mike, it simply should not require an act of civil disobedience to get a bottle of wine.


>> Michael Grant:
Let me give you the $10,000 question, civil disobedience or not, say I want to jump on the Internet tomorrow and place an order with -- I don't know -- my favorite small winery in the Napa Valley. Can I do it without fear of prosecution? And/or stated another way, will the California winery accept the order from me?


>> Clint Bolick:
That's the big thing. You would not get in trouble for placing the order or receiving the order, but the winery in California, if they guess wrong about Arizona's law, could lose its license and its ability to exist as a winery.


>> Michael Grant:
You mentioned legislative action. Is there any possibility that the state's liquor department could somehow clarify and bring normalcy to the situation?


>> Clint Bolick:
Yes. In fact, we asked them to clarify the situation, because the law is very unclear, and they said, yes, the law does allow Arizona wineries to ship, and then when we filed a lawsuit against them, because this was discriminatory, they flip-flopped and said, no they can't, so even the State's liquor regulators can't really figure out the law, and if that's the case, you know, the law is clearly unnecessary and way too complex.


>> Michael Grant:
Almost out of time, but any reason this should not be applied to other forms of alcohol?


>> Clint Bolick:
Yes, mainly because it's only wine that states have treated differently as a matter of regulation, allowing in-state shipping of wine. So, this ruling will not affect hard liquor or beer.


>> Michael Grant:
Okay, all right. Clint Bolick, thank you for joining us and talking about the ruling. Really interesting case.


>> Clint Bolick:
Well, it's toast worthy.


>> Michael Grant:
Shakespeare's classic "Macbeth" is in town. It's playing at the Arizona Theater Company through May 22nd. Here's a preview of the play from producer Sooyeon Lee.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
It's about power, the want of power and what power does. It's about the corrupting influence of power. But it's also a tragedy, it's about the journey into an experience in life.


>> Actor:
Thick, my blood, stop the excess and passage to remorse --


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Arizona Theater Company wraps up its season with William Shakespeare's tragedy.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
It's Macbeth by William Shakespeare. It's a 400-year-old play. I think it's a play that I saw when I was about 18, and I thought this is a play I really want to have a go at, and it's been with me ever since. So it's been gently bubbling away for many years and is now arriving.


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Steven Wrentworth, artistic director of Scotland's Fire Theater directed Macbeth.


>> Stephen Wrentmore: The one thing I learned in time, Shakespeare knows what he's doing. You don't need to do anything in Shakespeare. If you tell it clearly, if you observe the structures of the language and the iambic pentameter is very helpful as a device. As long as you understand that, the play takes care of itself, having found the way the text signals, then it's just been a case of allowing them to play it, because I think often when you see Shakespeare there is a barrier to understanding it. When it is done properly, it's beautifully lucid.


>> Actor:
In what tradition hail most worthy feign.


>> Actor:
What, can the devil speak true?


>> Actor:
Why do you address me as --


>> Sooyeon Lee:
The play is set in the 1930s during the time when emerging mass media begins serving as an accepted new source for the public.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
The idea of the newspaper headline, rather than the newspaper article, the idea of the television news, we're just getting into the age of cameras and things like that, becoming a means of dissemination. You can't do this play without an aptitude to what or who the witches are. And it seemed to me that because they are the ones who tell Macbeth that he is going to be the king, then they are the disseminators of information, and therefore what they do is form a sort of roguish media that passes out information, and I'm fascinated by the way, particularly in our contemporary world, what happens is you see a figure who is glorified, you know, you see on red carpets and shoots and it's wonderful, and they are looking for that misdemeanor that they tear them down again with. They are looking for human beings to become superstars, to then find the chink and destroy them because it sells papers. I was fascinated by that arc from Macbeth. That's what happens. It's corruptive and metaphorical, but what happens is he meets these people and they say you are a great man, you should be king, and he goes really? And he starts this obsession towards kingship. Then once he is a king, they say oh, there is a catch.


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Through Macbeth, Wrentmore questions how one maintains power.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
And I hope that what we have here is a dictatorship that is worthy of question. How did that man do it? Because everybody in that room who suspects him don't say anything. That's complicity. The same thing happened with the murdering of the Jews in Nazi Germany. So many of the high-ranking Nazi officers said we didn't know. Well, you must ask why, and we have to ask why, and part of what this play is doing is saying, we have to ask these questions. It's our responsibility. It's not just our right, but it's our responsibility to ask questions of those who govern us, and that's part of the point of the play as well.


>> Actor:
There are too large together.


>> Actor:
God bless us and amen the other.


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Most of all, it's about having a good time watching the stage play.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
I'd love them to see Shakespeare and not be intimidated. We want an experience that doesn't feel like it's 400 years old. It's not museum theater. That's an important thing, particularly when you are looking at young people coming into the theater for the first time, that they are not put off by the experience, and it can be both contemporary relevant and reverent to its material. What I'm not doing is I'm not taking a play and cutting it to make it understandable for my audience. It's my responsibility to make it understandable as it sits.


>> Michael Grant:
If you'd like more information about "Horizon," go to our web site at www.azpbs.org. Once you get to our home page, click on the word "Horizon" to see transcripts or information about upcoming shows.


>> Larry Lemmons:
America West Airlines comes to an agreement with US Airways to merge forming the 5th largest airline. On this land developers hope to build a Riverview project which would include the state's first Bass Pro Shop store. This after Mesa voters approved an incentive package. Those stories and more on Friday at 7:00 on "Horizon."


>> Michael Grant:
Thanks for joining us on a Thursday. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one, good night.


Riverview Project


  • The Riverview project in Mesa has been approved by voters there. We'll talk to Mesa's city manager about the next steps for the project.
Guests:
  • Mike Hutchinson - City Manager, Mesa
  • Clint Bolick - Strategic litigation counsel, Institute for Justice


View Transcript
>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," the Riverview project in Mesa has been approved by voters there. We'll talk to Mesa's city manager about the next steps for the project. The United States Supreme Court has ruled that wine sales across state lines are permitted. We'll talk to a lawyer who assisted in the case. And "Macbeth" is playing at the Arizona Theater Company. We'll give you a preview of the show. More on those topics, next, on "Horizon."


>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friend of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.


>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon." A merger deal between America West Airlines and U.S. Airways has taken off, but it's a long way from landing. The two airlines announced today a complex $1.5 billion deal, which would create the nation's fifth largest carrier. But for the next two or three years, the airlines will continue to operate separately. The deal would keep the headquarters in Tempe, but the name of the merged company would be U.S. Airways. America West chairman and CEO Doug Parker will run the airline. Parker said the motivation for the deal is to create the first full-service, nationwide, low-cost airline. The deal still faces many hurdles, including the approvals of the Federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board, which is still owed $1 billion from loans to both airlines after September 11th. The combined airlines have 38,000 employees, a number likely to shrink with consolidation. It was a smooth liftoff for the Riverview project in Mesa. Voters approved three propositions by a 56\% to 44\% margin, giving about $80 million in tax rebates to Kimco Developers and De Rito Partners Development. Foes of the project had put the measures on the ballot in an effort to stop it. The developers will build a retail project on a 250-acre site at Dobson Road and the Loop 202. The retail project will include a Bass Pro Shop, a Wal-Mart and theaters. Here now to tell us what's next for the Riverview project is Mike Hutchinson, Mesa's city manager. It's good to see you again.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Good to see you Mike.


>> Michael Grant:
Bass Pro, they just set people's hearts on fire if you are an outdoors guy?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
They are big. I didn't know a lot about them until two years ago when we were introduced to them, and they are in an expansion mode throughout the country, and it really is a unique shopping experience for all kinds of sports people. They start out in the hunting and fishing area, but they now have some other lines that they promote, and it really is a destination for people coming, traveling in our area and certainly throughout the State of Arizona.


>> Michael Grant:
That was the way it was described to me, sort of as a destination Disneyland for outdoor enthusiasts and you said as well, they are also into other sports as well?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yeah, it's amazing. They have the flagship store in Missouri, and then they built -- the newest one just opened in Las Vegas. They are expanding throughout the country, and really, we think we'll be an attraction, as I said, for people that travel to Mesa throughout the State of Arizona. That's one of the reasons why we're interested in them. We want people to come to our community and to shop and eat and dine and stay.


>> Michael Grant:
And have fun. Mike, I've got to tell you, if you had given me this hypothetical, big subsidies in Scottsdale put to a vote, big subsidies in Mesa put to a vote, which one is going to pass, I would have said, I don't know, is there a question here? Now, what the heck happened that Mesa voters put thumbs up on this, and Scottsdale voters say just absolutely no way to big box stores at Los Arcos?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
I think one of the appeals is it really is more than just a big box center. It has the Bass Pro component, but it has a theater complex with a theater district, which will include restaurants and other businesses, plus of the major retail piece, which will include some big boxes, and then there is an auto piece and on the far east side of the site, there is some land for industrial-commercial development. So it really is a bigger project.


>> Michael Grant:
Mesa had taken a run at the stadium location in that general area. Was the local attitude toward this project significantly different than with the local attitude had been toward the stadium project a couple three years ago?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yes, there was intensive debate about whether or not the Cardinals' stadium would be an asset. It was split, but some people thought it wouldn't be. But this project has the, I would say widespread support from immediate neighbors, and in the northwest section of the community, and they were very active in this recent campaign, talking about the need for those types of amenities in their part of the community, their support of it. They like the opportunities for jobs, their families, for people to come into that area. So really a positive response from the neighbors. I've got to credit the developers. They worked very carefully with the neighbors through the zoning process to make sure it was something that they would be proud of and would be designed properly and be an asset for the community.


>> Michael Grant:
I didn't follow the campaign closely, but I understand one of the other issues raised by the opponents is this will be a death knell for fiesta mall on southern. Did that play heavily as well?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It was brought up as part of the campaign. It was a heated campaign, lots of ideas and issues thrown both ways.


>> Michael Grant:
Divided father and son from time to time.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yes, in the Rose family, but we've done a lot of work in the last couple of years with the Fiesta Mall owners. Now they have a new owner, Westcor. That area will transition. There will be different uses there, but with the Fiesta Mall still being a strong mall with the community college going to expand, the hospital in that area, we think the future is very bright, and we are, as a city, going to be an active partner with the business community to help ensure that.


>> Michael Grant:
Is the political side of this over? I read a story today, I will be the first to admit to you, I didn't fully understand what was going on, but as I understand it, an initiative drive is now being written up in the city's charter to prohibit subsidies. Have I got that somewhere right?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yes, we were surprised to hear about that, too. Apparently there is some suggestion it will be retroactive to this particular project, which there may be some legal issues with that. We haven't really done any full legal exploration of that, yet, because it was just discussed in the media today, but, you know, it's an interesting twist, and it's an interesting issue.


>> Michael Grant:
Let's assume that it goes forward. What is the timetable -- give me the major benchmarks anticipated here.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It's really exciting, because the developer is really poised to go. I drove by the site coming over here tonight from Mesa, and there are earth movers on the site and they are starting to do some of the initial grading work for the theater and the theater district, and so that's really the first phase. The Cinemark who will be the theater owner and operator is hopefully going to break ground on their theater in July or August. They hope to be open the first quarter of next year. That'll be followed by the restaurants and other amenities to the district. The Bass Pro folks are starting in their design work. They do a very intensive design effort with the community, so they've started those preliminary issues and going through the zoning process. There has been some interest on the industrial-commercial piece that's started. So I think things will move quickly. We're poised as city staff to go as fast as we can to help the developer go through the process. It's a big project, but one that we think will pay a lot of dividends for our city.


>> Michael Grant:
Some question about whether or not Wal-Mart will actually be there?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Well, I think they'll be there. They have an older store about a mile south on Main Street that they've talked about -- that they need a larger facility, a super Wal-Mart. So my sense is they'll be in the project, but they haven't made those final lease agreements yet. They are still talking to a variety of potential tenets, but my sense is Wal-Mart will be part of the project.


>> Michael Grant:
Now, this is Dobson, Mike, and the 202. Give me a proximity location in relation to Dobson and the 202. Southwest?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It's just south of the 202. As you get off Dobson Road on both sides -- you get off 202 at Dobson, on both sides of Dobson will be the project. Immediately to the west will be the auto mall part of the project, and then to the east will be the Bass Pro, the theater district and other retail. It's a large site, about 240 acres, so it'll take them several years to get all of the development.


>> Michael Grant:
It's called "Riverview" is that figuratively speaking or is there a literal component.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
You are pretty close to the river.


>> Michael Grant:
Well, yeah.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It was flowing again recently. But you know, we have a park down there by the name of Riverview Park and we have a golf course named Riverview golf course that have been long-standing amenities for those.


>> Michael Grant:
But absent the release from the Salt River Project, there is no plans to, for example, do a Mesa town lake similar to Tempe Town Lake?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
No plans, Mike. It's an evolving project.


>> Michael Grant:
I understand. You could probably have another vote on whether or not you want a Mesa town lake. Mike Hutchinson, appreciate your stopping by and talking about it. I guess we'll keep an eye on that initiative movement and a couple of legal issues surrounding it.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Thanks, Mike.


>> Michael Grant:
It's now legal to sell wines across state lines, that, after a ruling this week by the United States Supreme Court. We'll talk to a lawyer, who assisted in the ruling, but first, more about the decision.


>> Mike Sauceda:
The United States Supreme Court ruled on Monday that wine can be purchased directly from out of state vineyards. The purchase of out of state wines has grown because of Internet sales in a 5-4 decision the Supreme Court overturned laws in New York and Michigan which supporters said were meant to protect local wineries. Arizona is among 24 states that have laws that bar interstate wine shipments. In the opinion, the court said that states have broad opinion to regulate the sale of liquor, however, the Court ruled that the regulatory powers do not extend to barring interstate sales of wine while allowing sales within a state. The court said that those state bans are discriminatory and anti-competitive. The court made the decision based on 21st amendment, which ended prohibition and granted states the power to regulate alcohol sales. Although the ruling applies to wine, it is expected it will apply to beer and to liquor.


>> Michael Grant:
Here now to tell us more about the wine ruling is Clint Bolick. Bolick is the strategic litigation counsel for the Washington, D.C.-based Institute for Justice. The Institute for Justice represented winery owners in Virginia and California, as well as New York consumers. Well, Clint, congratulations on the case.


>> Clint Bolick:
Thank you, let the good wines roll.


>> Michael Grant:
What role did the Institute for Justice play in the case?


>> Clint Bolick:
We filed the lawsuit against the state of New York, which is the second largest wine consuming state in the country, and we took the case all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court last December I argued that case.


>> Michael Grant:
This is a tension between the 21st amendment to the United States constitution, which is the one that repealed prohibition, and the interstate commerce clause. Why don't you take it from there and kind of set up what was happening?


>> Clint Bolick:
Well, we would not have had a constitution if there was no commerce clause guaranteeing free trade among the states, but when the prohibition was lifted, the States were given broad authority over alcohol distribution. So those two constitutional provisions clashed, and they led to a 5-4 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court.


>> Michael Grant:
And a very interesting makeup in the 5 and 4.


>> Clint Bolick:
Absolutely unprecedented. Conservatives and liberals on both sides of the divide.


>> Michael Grant:
Now, now states can still -- this was saying, yes, states have broad power to regulate all aspects of liquor transactions, sale, distribution, that kind of thing, but if the State does it discriminatorily, it's not an appropriate exercise of state power under the 21st amendment and instead violates the interstate commerce clause. So if you allow wine to be shipped, you can't favor your in-state winery over out of state wineries, but a state could still just prohibit it across the board, right?


>> Clint Bolick:
That's right. States can regulate alcohol however they wish but by one set of rules, not by two.


>> Michael Grant:
Now, what did the dissent -- intuitively, that seems to me to be the correct results, but you obviously had four Supreme Court justices disagreeing with me and obviously disagreeing with you. What did the dissent offer as justification for no, that would be okay?


>> Clint Bolick:
Really just saying that 21st amendment is clear in its amendment. It gives primary authority to the states, so whatever they do, even if it's outright economic protectionism and Mike, that's what's going on here, is protection for the middleman, the liquor distributors who control the distribution of alcohol in these states, even that's okay, and obviously, the 5 and the majority said, no, listen, the 21st amendment does give the states broad power to protect public health against underage access but this has nothing to do with those objectives. This has everything to do about protecting an inefficient bloated profit-taking monopoly.


>> Michael Grant:
Let me cycle back to the point you made just a couple of seconds ago, that this really was a protection for the distributors. Explain that a little bit more.


>> Clint Bolick:
Well, in most states, most alcohol is distributed by middlemen, distributors who, in the case of wine, take 30\% of the cost of every bottle of wine. For small wineries that simply doesn't work. There are over three thousand wineries in the United States today and there is not remotely enough shelf space. If you visit a little winery in California and you try to find it when you come back here to Arizona, good luck, no way are you going to find it.


>> Michael Grant:
Sure.


>> Clint Bolick:
So the distributors, though, they want every drop of wine to flow through their profit-taking grasp, and so they sustain these laws, and they fight against the direct shipment of wine to consumers through the Internet or from direct orders from the winery.


>> Michael Grant:
I suspect the answer to this question is a little bit of both, but I'll ask it anyway. Is there also a component involved here of just simply a state trying to protect its own domestic or promote its own domestic industry?


>> Clint Bolick:
Absolutely. That's why you have two sets of rules in so many states. The states often want to protect their liquor distributors, but they also want to protect their own wine industry. Today every single state has wineries, including, of course, Arizona, and so the states want to promote that. So the way they accomplish both objectives is to say in-state wineries can ship to consumers but not out of state wineries.


>> Michael Grant:
You were telling me that New York -- I would think New York is the very last state to have a winery, but apparently you were saying they have a couple of wine growing regions?


>> Clint Bolick:
It's a flourishing wine production state, over 100 wineries in the state of New York. They want to sell to people in other states, you know, people come visit the finger lakes or whatever, and they want to order New York wine, and they can't sell it. So they were on our side. The only people really against us in these lawsuits, aside from the states themselves, were the liquor distributors.


>> Michael Grant:
So generally, and in particular, many of the small wineries, very supportive of it, because they won't have the kind of muscle that -- I'm going to toss out -- Gallo -- illustratively to get those out.


>> Clint Bolick:
That's right, our client, a woman who owns a winery in Virginia, if you go to her winery, she is planting the grapes, harvesting the grapes, making the wine, and if you call her a winery, she'll answer the phone as well. And there is no way she can go up against these powerful behemoths.


>> Michael Grant:
Ok, well let's get to the State of Arizona. I understand there is some confusion about whether or not Arizona's law is valid or not under this ruling; correct?


>> Clint Bolick:
That's right. The State contends that it does not allow in-state wineries to ship to consumers, but in fact they do. The State has allowed them to do so. To the extent it's discriminatory, then the law is invalid. I think the best way to resolve this is through legislative action, but, Mike, it simply should not require an act of civil disobedience to get a bottle of wine.


>> Michael Grant:
Let me give you the $10,000 question, civil disobedience or not, say I want to jump on the Internet tomorrow and place an order with -- I don't know -- my favorite small winery in the Napa Valley. Can I do it without fear of prosecution? And/or stated another way, will the California winery accept the order from me?


>> Clint Bolick:
That's the big thing. You would not get in trouble for placing the order or receiving the order, but the winery in California, if they guess wrong about Arizona's law, could lose its license and its ability to exist as a winery.


>> Michael Grant:
You mentioned legislative action. Is there any possibility that the state's liquor department could somehow clarify and bring normalcy to the situation?


>> Clint Bolick:
Yes. In fact, we asked them to clarify the situation, because the law is very unclear, and they said, yes, the law does allow Arizona wineries to ship, and then when we filed a lawsuit against them, because this was discriminatory, they flip-flopped and said, no they can't, so even the State's liquor regulators can't really figure out the law, and if that's the case, you know, the law is clearly unnecessary and way too complex.


>> Michael Grant:
Almost out of time, but any reason this should not be applied to other forms of alcohol?


>> Clint Bolick:
Yes, mainly because it's only wine that states have treated differently as a matter of regulation, allowing in-state shipping of wine. So, this ruling will not affect hard liquor or beer.


>> Michael Grant:
Okay, all right. Clint Bolick, thank you for joining us and talking about the ruling. Really interesting case.


>> Clint Bolick:
Well, it's toast worthy.


>> Michael Grant:
Shakespeare's classic "Macbeth" is in town. It's playing at the Arizona Theater Company through May 22nd. Here's a preview of the play from producer Sooyeon Lee.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
It's about power, the want of power and what power does. It's about the corrupting influence of power. But it's also a tragedy, it's about the journey into an experience in life.


>> Actor:
Thick, my blood, stop the excess and passage to remorse --


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Arizona Theater Company wraps up its season with William Shakespeare's tragedy.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
It's Macbeth by William Shakespeare. It's a 400-year-old play. I think it's a play that I saw when I was about 18, and I thought this is a play I really want to have a go at, and it's been with me ever since. So it's been gently bubbling away for many years and is now arriving.


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Steven Wrentworth, artistic director of Scotland's Fire Theater directed Macbeth.


>> Stephen Wrentmore: The one thing I learned in time, Shakespeare knows what he's doing. You don't need to do anything in Shakespeare. If you tell it clearly, if you observe the structures of the language and the iambic pentameter is very helpful as a device. As long as you understand that, the play takes care of itself, having found the way the text signals, then it's just been a case of allowing them to play it, because I think often when you see Shakespeare there is a barrier to understanding it. When it is done properly, it's beautifully lucid.


>> Actor:
In what tradition hail most worthy feign.


>> Actor:
What, can the devil speak true?


>> Actor:
Why do you address me as --


>> Sooyeon Lee:
The play is set in the 1930s during the time when emerging mass media begins serving as an accepted new source for the public.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
The idea of the newspaper headline, rather than the newspaper article, the idea of the television news, we're just getting into the age of cameras and things like that, becoming a means of dissemination. You can't do this play without an aptitude to what or who the witches are. And it seemed to me that because they are the ones who tell Macbeth that he is going to be the king, then they are the disseminators of information, and therefore what they do is form a sort of roguish media that passes out information, and I'm fascinated by the way, particularly in our contemporary world, what happens is you see a figure who is glorified, you know, you see on red carpets and shoots and it's wonderful, and they are looking for that misdemeanor that they tear them down again with. They are looking for human beings to become superstars, to then find the chink and destroy them because it sells papers. I was fascinated by that arc from Macbeth. That's what happens. It's corruptive and metaphorical, but what happens is he meets these people and they say you are a great man, you should be king, and he goes really? And he starts this obsession towards kingship. Then once he is a king, they say oh, there is a catch.


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Through Macbeth, Wrentmore questions how one maintains power.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
And I hope that what we have here is a dictatorship that is worthy of question. How did that man do it? Because everybody in that room who suspects him don't say anything. That's complicity. The same thing happened with the murdering of the Jews in Nazi Germany. So many of the high-ranking Nazi officers said we didn't know. Well, you must ask why, and we have to ask why, and part of what this play is doing is saying, we have to ask these questions. It's our responsibility. It's not just our right, but it's our responsibility to ask questions of those who govern us, and that's part of the point of the play as well.


>> Actor:
There are too large together.


>> Actor:
God bless us and amen the other.


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Most of all, it's about having a good time watching the stage play.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
I'd love them to see Shakespeare and not be intimidated. We want an experience that doesn't feel like it's 400 years old. It's not museum theater. That's an important thing, particularly when you are looking at young people coming into the theater for the first time, that they are not put off by the experience, and it can be both contemporary relevant and reverent to its material. What I'm not doing is I'm not taking a play and cutting it to make it understandable for my audience. It's my responsibility to make it understandable as it sits.


>> Michael Grant:
If you'd like more information about "Horizon," go to our web site at www.azpbs.org. Once you get to our home page, click on the word "Horizon" to see transcripts or information about upcoming shows.


>> Larry Lemmons:
America West Airlines comes to an agreement with US Airways to merge forming the 5th largest airline. On this land developers hope to build a Riverview project which would include the state's first Bass Pro Shop store. This after Mesa voters approved an incentive package. Those stories and more on Friday at 7:00 on "Horizon."


>> Michael Grant:
Thanks for joining us on a Thursday. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one, good night.


Wine Ruling


  • The United States Supreme Court has ruled that wine sales across state lines are permitted. We'll talk to a lawyer who assisted in the case.
Guests:
  • Mike Hutchinson - City Manager, Mesa
  • Clint Bolick - Strategic litigation counsel, Institute for Justice


View Transcript
>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," the Riverview project in Mesa has been approved by voters there. We'll talk to Mesa's city manager about the next steps for the project. The United States Supreme Court has ruled that wine sales across state lines are permitted. We'll talk to a lawyer who assisted in the case. And "Macbeth" is playing at the Arizona Theater Company. We'll give you a preview of the show. More on those topics, next, on "Horizon."


>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friend of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.


>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon." A merger deal between America West Airlines and U.S. Airways has taken off, but it's a long way from landing. The two airlines announced today a complex $1.5 billion deal, which would create the nation's fifth largest carrier. But for the next two or three years, the airlines will continue to operate separately. The deal would keep the headquarters in Tempe, but the name of the merged company would be U.S. Airways. America West chairman and CEO Doug Parker will run the airline. Parker said the motivation for the deal is to create the first full-service, nationwide, low-cost airline. The deal still faces many hurdles, including the approvals of the Federal Air Transportation Stabilization Board, which is still owed $1 billion from loans to both airlines after September 11th. The combined airlines have 38,000 employees, a number likely to shrink with consolidation. It was a smooth liftoff for the Riverview project in Mesa. Voters approved three propositions by a 56\% to 44\% margin, giving about $80 million in tax rebates to Kimco Developers and De Rito Partners Development. Foes of the project had put the measures on the ballot in an effort to stop it. The developers will build a retail project on a 250-acre site at Dobson Road and the Loop 202. The retail project will include a Bass Pro Shop, a Wal-Mart and theaters. Here now to tell us what's next for the Riverview project is Mike Hutchinson, Mesa's city manager. It's good to see you again.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Good to see you Mike.


>> Michael Grant:
Bass Pro, they just set people's hearts on fire if you are an outdoors guy?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
They are big. I didn't know a lot about them until two years ago when we were introduced to them, and they are in an expansion mode throughout the country, and it really is a unique shopping experience for all kinds of sports people. They start out in the hunting and fishing area, but they now have some other lines that they promote, and it really is a destination for people coming, traveling in our area and certainly throughout the State of Arizona.


>> Michael Grant:
That was the way it was described to me, sort of as a destination Disneyland for outdoor enthusiasts and you said as well, they are also into other sports as well?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yeah, it's amazing. They have the flagship store in Missouri, and then they built -- the newest one just opened in Las Vegas. They are expanding throughout the country, and really, we think we'll be an attraction, as I said, for people that travel to Mesa throughout the State of Arizona. That's one of the reasons why we're interested in them. We want people to come to our community and to shop and eat and dine and stay.


>> Michael Grant:
And have fun. Mike, I've got to tell you, if you had given me this hypothetical, big subsidies in Scottsdale put to a vote, big subsidies in Mesa put to a vote, which one is going to pass, I would have said, I don't know, is there a question here? Now, what the heck happened that Mesa voters put thumbs up on this, and Scottsdale voters say just absolutely no way to big box stores at Los Arcos?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
I think one of the appeals is it really is more than just a big box center. It has the Bass Pro component, but it has a theater complex with a theater district, which will include restaurants and other businesses, plus of the major retail piece, which will include some big boxes, and then there is an auto piece and on the far east side of the site, there is some land for industrial-commercial development. So it really is a bigger project.


>> Michael Grant:
Mesa had taken a run at the stadium location in that general area. Was the local attitude toward this project significantly different than with the local attitude had been toward the stadium project a couple three years ago?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yes, there was intensive debate about whether or not the Cardinals' stadium would be an asset. It was split, but some people thought it wouldn't be. But this project has the, I would say widespread support from immediate neighbors, and in the northwest section of the community, and they were very active in this recent campaign, talking about the need for those types of amenities in their part of the community, their support of it. They like the opportunities for jobs, their families, for people to come into that area. So really a positive response from the neighbors. I've got to credit the developers. They worked very carefully with the neighbors through the zoning process to make sure it was something that they would be proud of and would be designed properly and be an asset for the community.


>> Michael Grant:
I didn't follow the campaign closely, but I understand one of the other issues raised by the opponents is this will be a death knell for fiesta mall on southern. Did that play heavily as well?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It was brought up as part of the campaign. It was a heated campaign, lots of ideas and issues thrown both ways.


>> Michael Grant:
Divided father and son from time to time.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yes, in the Rose family, but we've done a lot of work in the last couple of years with the Fiesta Mall owners. Now they have a new owner, Westcor. That area will transition. There will be different uses there, but with the Fiesta Mall still being a strong mall with the community college going to expand, the hospital in that area, we think the future is very bright, and we are, as a city, going to be an active partner with the business community to help ensure that.


>> Michael Grant:
Is the political side of this over? I read a story today, I will be the first to admit to you, I didn't fully understand what was going on, but as I understand it, an initiative drive is now being written up in the city's charter to prohibit subsidies. Have I got that somewhere right?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Yes, we were surprised to hear about that, too. Apparently there is some suggestion it will be retroactive to this particular project, which there may be some legal issues with that. We haven't really done any full legal exploration of that, yet, because it was just discussed in the media today, but, you know, it's an interesting twist, and it's an interesting issue.


>> Michael Grant:
Let's assume that it goes forward. What is the timetable -- give me the major benchmarks anticipated here.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It's really exciting, because the developer is really poised to go. I drove by the site coming over here tonight from Mesa, and there are earth movers on the site and they are starting to do some of the initial grading work for the theater and the theater district, and so that's really the first phase. The Cinemark who will be the theater owner and operator is hopefully going to break ground on their theater in July or August. They hope to be open the first quarter of next year. That'll be followed by the restaurants and other amenities to the district. The Bass Pro folks are starting in their design work. They do a very intensive design effort with the community, so they've started those preliminary issues and going through the zoning process. There has been some interest on the industrial-commercial piece that's started. So I think things will move quickly. We're poised as city staff to go as fast as we can to help the developer go through the process. It's a big project, but one that we think will pay a lot of dividends for our city.


>> Michael Grant:
Some question about whether or not Wal-Mart will actually be there?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Well, I think they'll be there. They have an older store about a mile south on Main Street that they've talked about -- that they need a larger facility, a super Wal-Mart. So my sense is they'll be in the project, but they haven't made those final lease agreements yet. They are still talking to a variety of potential tenets, but my sense is Wal-Mart will be part of the project.


>> Michael Grant:
Now, this is Dobson, Mike, and the 202. Give me a proximity location in relation to Dobson and the 202. Southwest?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It's just south of the 202. As you get off Dobson Road on both sides -- you get off 202 at Dobson, on both sides of Dobson will be the project. Immediately to the west will be the auto mall part of the project, and then to the east will be the Bass Pro, the theater district and other retail. It's a large site, about 240 acres, so it'll take them several years to get all of the development.


>> Michael Grant:
It's called "Riverview" is that figuratively speaking or is there a literal component.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
You are pretty close to the river.


>> Michael Grant:
Well, yeah.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
It was flowing again recently. But you know, we have a park down there by the name of Riverview Park and we have a golf course named Riverview golf course that have been long-standing amenities for those.


>> Michael Grant:
But absent the release from the Salt River Project, there is no plans to, for example, do a Mesa town lake similar to Tempe Town Lake?


>> Mike Hutchinson:
No plans, Mike. It's an evolving project.


>> Michael Grant:
I understand. You could probably have another vote on whether or not you want a Mesa town lake. Mike Hutchinson, appreciate your stopping by and talking about it. I guess we'll keep an eye on that initiative movement and a couple of legal issues surrounding it.


>> Mike Hutchinson:
Thanks, Mike.


>> Michael Grant:
It's now legal to sell wines across state lines, that, after a ruling this week by the United States Supreme Court. We'll talk to a lawyer, who assisted in the ruling, but first, more about the decision.


>> Mike Sauceda:
The United States Supreme Court ruled on Monday that wine can be purchased directly from out of state vineyards. The purchase of out of state wines has grown because of Internet sales in a 5-4 decision the Supreme Court overturned laws in New York and Michigan which supporters said were meant to protect local wineries. Arizona is among 24 states that have laws that bar interstate wine shipments. In the opinion, the court said that states have broad opinion to regulate the sale of liquor, however, the Court ruled that the regulatory powers do not extend to barring interstate sales of wine while allowing sales within a state. The court said that those state bans are discriminatory and anti-competitive. The court made the decision based on 21st amendment, which ended prohibition and granted states the power to regulate alcohol sales. Although the ruling applies to wine, it is expected it will apply to beer and to liquor.


>> Michael Grant:
Here now to tell us more about the wine ruling is Clint Bolick. Bolick is the strategic litigation counsel for the Washington, D.C.-based Institute for Justice. The Institute for Justice represented winery owners in Virginia and California, as well as New York consumers. Well, Clint, congratulations on the case.


>> Clint Bolick:
Thank you, let the good wines roll.


>> Michael Grant:
What role did the Institute for Justice play in the case?


>> Clint Bolick:
We filed the lawsuit against the state of New York, which is the second largest wine consuming state in the country, and we took the case all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court last December I argued that case.


>> Michael Grant:
This is a tension between the 21st amendment to the United States constitution, which is the one that repealed prohibition, and the interstate commerce clause. Why don't you take it from there and kind of set up what was happening?


>> Clint Bolick:
Well, we would not have had a constitution if there was no commerce clause guaranteeing free trade among the states, but when the prohibition was lifted, the States were given broad authority over alcohol distribution. So those two constitutional provisions clashed, and they led to a 5-4 decision by the U.S. Supreme Court.


>> Michael Grant:
And a very interesting makeup in the 5 and 4.


>> Clint Bolick:
Absolutely unprecedented. Conservatives and liberals on both sides of the divide.


>> Michael Grant:
Now, now states can still -- this was saying, yes, states have broad power to regulate all aspects of liquor transactions, sale, distribution, that kind of thing, but if the State does it discriminatorily, it's not an appropriate exercise of state power under the 21st amendment and instead violates the interstate commerce clause. So if you allow wine to be shipped, you can't favor your in-state winery over out of state wineries, but a state could still just prohibit it across the board, right?


>> Clint Bolick:
That's right. States can regulate alcohol however they wish but by one set of rules, not by two.


>> Michael Grant:
Now, what did the dissent -- intuitively, that seems to me to be the correct results, but you obviously had four Supreme Court justices disagreeing with me and obviously disagreeing with you. What did the dissent offer as justification for no, that would be okay?


>> Clint Bolick:
Really just saying that 21st amendment is clear in its amendment. It gives primary authority to the states, so whatever they do, even if it's outright economic protectionism and Mike, that's what's going on here, is protection for the middleman, the liquor distributors who control the distribution of alcohol in these states, even that's okay, and obviously, the 5 and the majority said, no, listen, the 21st amendment does give the states broad power to protect public health against underage access but this has nothing to do with those objectives. This has everything to do about protecting an inefficient bloated profit-taking monopoly.


>> Michael Grant:
Let me cycle back to the point you made just a couple of seconds ago, that this really was a protection for the distributors. Explain that a little bit more.


>> Clint Bolick:
Well, in most states, most alcohol is distributed by middlemen, distributors who, in the case of wine, take 30\% of the cost of every bottle of wine. For small wineries that simply doesn't work. There are over three thousand wineries in the United States today and there is not remotely enough shelf space. If you visit a little winery in California and you try to find it when you come back here to Arizona, good luck, no way are you going to find it.


>> Michael Grant:
Sure.


>> Clint Bolick:
So the distributors, though, they want every drop of wine to flow through their profit-taking grasp, and so they sustain these laws, and they fight against the direct shipment of wine to consumers through the Internet or from direct orders from the winery.


>> Michael Grant:
I suspect the answer to this question is a little bit of both, but I'll ask it anyway. Is there also a component involved here of just simply a state trying to protect its own domestic or promote its own domestic industry?


>> Clint Bolick:
Absolutely. That's why you have two sets of rules in so many states. The states often want to protect their liquor distributors, but they also want to protect their own wine industry. Today every single state has wineries, including, of course, Arizona, and so the states want to promote that. So the way they accomplish both objectives is to say in-state wineries can ship to consumers but not out of state wineries.


>> Michael Grant:
You were telling me that New York -- I would think New York is the very last state to have a winery, but apparently you were saying they have a couple of wine growing regions?


>> Clint Bolick:
It's a flourishing wine production state, over 100 wineries in the state of New York. They want to sell to people in other states, you know, people come visit the finger lakes or whatever, and they want to order New York wine, and they can't sell it. So they were on our side. The only people really against us in these lawsuits, aside from the states themselves, were the liquor distributors.


>> Michael Grant:
So generally, and in particular, many of the small wineries, very supportive of it, because they won't have the kind of muscle that -- I'm going to toss out -- Gallo -- illustratively to get those out.


>> Clint Bolick:
That's right, our client, a woman who owns a winery in Virginia, if you go to her winery, she is planting the grapes, harvesting the grapes, making the wine, and if you call her a winery, she'll answer the phone as well. And there is no way she can go up against these powerful behemoths.


>> Michael Grant:
Ok, well let's get to the State of Arizona. I understand there is some confusion about whether or not Arizona's law is valid or not under this ruling; correct?


>> Clint Bolick:
That's right. The State contends that it does not allow in-state wineries to ship to consumers, but in fact they do. The State has allowed them to do so. To the extent it's discriminatory, then the law is invalid. I think the best way to resolve this is through legislative action, but, Mike, it simply should not require an act of civil disobedience to get a bottle of wine.


>> Michael Grant:
Let me give you the $10,000 question, civil disobedience or not, say I want to jump on the Internet tomorrow and place an order with -- I don't know -- my favorite small winery in the Napa Valley. Can I do it without fear of prosecution? And/or stated another way, will the California winery accept the order from me?


>> Clint Bolick:
That's the big thing. You would not get in trouble for placing the order or receiving the order, but the winery in California, if they guess wrong about Arizona's law, could lose its license and its ability to exist as a winery.


>> Michael Grant:
You mentioned legislative action. Is there any possibility that the state's liquor department could somehow clarify and bring normalcy to the situation?


>> Clint Bolick:
Yes. In fact, we asked them to clarify the situation, because the law is very unclear, and they said, yes, the law does allow Arizona wineries to ship, and then when we filed a lawsuit against them, because this was discriminatory, they flip-flopped and said, no they can't, so even the State's liquor regulators can't really figure out the law, and if that's the case, you know, the law is clearly unnecessary and way too complex.


>> Michael Grant:
Almost out of time, but any reason this should not be applied to other forms of alcohol?


>> Clint Bolick:
Yes, mainly because it's only wine that states have treated differently as a matter of regulation, allowing in-state shipping of wine. So, this ruling will not affect hard liquor or beer.


>> Michael Grant:
Okay, all right. Clint Bolick, thank you for joining us and talking about the ruling. Really interesting case.


>> Clint Bolick:
Well, it's toast worthy.


>> Michael Grant:
Shakespeare's classic "Macbeth" is in town. It's playing at the Arizona Theater Company through May 22nd. Here's a preview of the play from producer Sooyeon Lee.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
It's about power, the want of power and what power does. It's about the corrupting influence of power. But it's also a tragedy, it's about the journey into an experience in life.


>> Actor:
Thick, my blood, stop the excess and passage to remorse --


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Arizona Theater Company wraps up its season with William Shakespeare's tragedy.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
It's Macbeth by William Shakespeare. It's a 400-year-old play. I think it's a play that I saw when I was about 18, and I thought this is a play I really want to have a go at, and it's been with me ever since. So it's been gently bubbling away for many years and is now arriving.


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Steven Wrentworth, artistic director of Scotland's Fire Theater directed Macbeth.


>> Stephen Wrentmore: The one thing I learned in time, Shakespeare knows what he's doing. You don't need to do anything in Shakespeare. If you tell it clearly, if you observe the structures of the language and the iambic pentameter is very helpful as a device. As long as you understand that, the play takes care of itself, having found the way the text signals, then it's just been a case of allowing them to play it, because I think often when you see Shakespeare there is a barrier to understanding it. When it is done properly, it's beautifully lucid.


>> Actor:
In what tradition hail most worthy feign.


>> Actor:
What, can the devil speak true?


>> Actor:
Why do you address me as --


>> Sooyeon Lee:
The play is set in the 1930s during the time when emerging mass media begins serving as an accepted new source for the public.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
The idea of the newspaper headline, rather than the newspaper article, the idea of the television news, we're just getting into the age of cameras and things like that, becoming a means of dissemination. You can't do this play without an aptitude to what or who the witches are. And it seemed to me that because they are the ones who tell Macbeth that he is going to be the king, then they are the disseminators of information, and therefore what they do is form a sort of roguish media that passes out information, and I'm fascinated by the way, particularly in our contemporary world, what happens is you see a figure who is glorified, you know, you see on red carpets and shoots and it's wonderful, and they are looking for that misdemeanor that they tear them down again with. They are looking for human beings to become superstars, to then find the chink and destroy them because it sells papers. I was fascinated by that arc from Macbeth. That's what happens. It's corruptive and metaphorical, but what happens is he meets these people and they say you are a great man, you should be king, and he goes really? And he starts this obsession towards kingship. Then once he is a king, they say oh, there is a catch.


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Through Macbeth, Wrentmore questions how one maintains power.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
And I hope that what we have here is a dictatorship that is worthy of question. How did that man do it? Because everybody in that room who suspects him don't say anything. That's complicity. The same thing happened with the murdering of the Jews in Nazi Germany. So many of the high-ranking Nazi officers said we didn't know. Well, you must ask why, and we have to ask why, and part of what this play is doing is saying, we have to ask these questions. It's our responsibility. It's not just our right, but it's our responsibility to ask questions of those who govern us, and that's part of the point of the play as well.


>> Actor:
There are too large together.


>> Actor:
God bless us and amen the other.


>> Sooyeon Lee:
Most of all, it's about having a good time watching the stage play.


>> Stephen Wrentmore:
I'd love them to see Shakespeare and not be intimidated. We want an experience that doesn't feel like it's 400 years old. It's not museum theater. That's an important thing, particularly when you are looking at young people coming into the theater for the first time, that they are not put off by the experience, and it can be both contemporary relevant and reverent to its material. What I'm not doing is I'm not taking a play and cutting it to make it understandable for my audience. It's my responsibility to make it understandable as it sits.


>> Michael Grant:
If you'd like more information about "Horizon," go to our web site at www.azpbs.org. Once you get to our home page, click on the word "Horizon" to see transcripts or information about upcoming shows.


>> Larry Lemmons:
America West Airlines comes to an agreement with US Airways to merge forming the 5th largest airline. On this land developers hope to build a Riverview project which would include the state's first Bass Pro Shop store. This after Mesa voters approved an incentive package. Those stories and more on Friday at 7:00 on "Horizon."


>> Michael Grant:
Thanks for joining us on a Thursday. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one, good night.



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