Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

January 29, 2008


Host: Ted Simons

Legislature A to Z: Immigration

  |   Video
  • The first part of our annual look at key legislative issues examines immigration. Why do many Democratic and Republican policy makers say the federal government has not done enough to curb illegal immigration in Arizona? What bills are being introduced that address the problem?
Guests:
  • John Kavanagh - State Representative
  • Ben Miranda - State Representative
  • Chris Salvino - Director, Level One Trauma Center, John C. Lincoln North Mountain Hospital
Category: Immigration

View Transcript
Ted Simons:
Tonight on Horizon, Arizona immigration policy. We begin our series on the state legislature with a look at state laws dealing with immigration. Plus, are you ready for some football? The NFL Experience comes to Glendale. And with all those visitors coming to the valley, how are Arizona's trauma centers prepared to deliver emergency services? Those stories next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by contributions from the friends of eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Ted Simons:
Good evening and welcome to horizon. I'm Ted Simons. In the first part of our annual series on the key issues facing the legislature, we examine the bills that are being introduced this session to address Arizona's illegal immigration problem. First, Merry Lucero looks at why a number of policy makers, democrats and republicans, are saying the federal government has not done enough to curb illegal immigration in Arizona.

Crowd:
Si se puede!

Merry Lucero:
The public debates over illegal immigration for the most part is pretty clearly divided.

Man: …
But if you're illegal, you must go!

Merry Lucero:
But there is one complaint about immigration policy echoed by those who would normally disagree.

Gov. Napolitano:
When it comes to regaining control of immigration, the federal government has been a miserable failure.

Thayer Verschoor:
And I agree with the governor. The feds have failed in this area. And as a result of that, failure we've had to step up and we're going to continue to step up.

Nancy Barto:
That is probably one of the only unifying positions that both sides of the aisle have in come on is that federal government has not done what they are supposed to do to protect us. Securing the border, dealing with employers the way they should, allowing enough legal workers to satisfy the economic realities in the southern states and other states around the country.

Dennis Burke:
There's no one who is going to defend the status quo of our current immigration system. You'll hear it from democrat, republican, conservative, liberal, across the spectrum. There's no defense of the current system. There is unbelievably large frustration at the state level. Because the belief is that lack of federal action is putting more and more pressure on the state officials and local officials.

Merry Lucero:
Last year, federal legislation was created but not passed.

Dennis Burke:
They engaged last year in what they called comprehensive reform. Then they failed to get the votes and walked away from it. They basically just kicked the can down the road. And now back in Washington they've basically said to the states and to Americans, "we're not going to be able to resolve this. You'll have to wait until the next president comes into office and the next congress."

Merry Lucero:
Major federal challenges--fixing the antiquated visa system and securing the border. Many say past federal policy even made Arizona's illegal immigration problem worse.

Dennis Burke:
The frustration for Arizona is the federal policy actually funnels crossers into Arizona. Its added additional resources and security in California, New Mexico and Texas, with the exact purpose of funneling them up through Arizona. And without then providing the resources for Arizona to deal with that problem. Then we become a network for the rest of the country, for undocumented individuals.

Merry Lucero:
While some regulations are beyond the reach of state and local policymakers, most agree Arizona must do what it can.

Gov. Napolitano:
And until there is comprehensive immigration reform by the federal government, we will have to deal with these problems.

Merry Lucero:
So state lawmakers addressed border security another way. Arizona's employer sanctions law.

Nancy Barto:
We are trying to accomplish border security at the state level by keeping employers legal and helping them to obey the laws. And yet, we're also making it more difficult for them to get the labor that they need. We're really at the mercy of the federal government coming and rectifying that problem.

Merry Lucero:
Until it does, we are likely to see more state and local policies as well as ballot initiatives dealing with illegal immigration. Some of those, tougher punishments for criminal acts like human smuggling operations and criminal trespass.

Ted Simons:
Joining me now to talk about immigration related legislation this session State Representative John Kavanagh and State Representative Ben Miranda. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. John, let's start with you. Obviously, Federal Government, no one is happy, no one is pleased. The government doing what it feels is necessary. Employer Sanctions goes through last year. What's going on now with the legislature in terms of "fixing" that legislation?

John Kavanagh: Well, the employer sanctions law had a lot of conditions and facets. And we discovered that there are some things that need to be fixed, specifically we want to make sure that everyone knows that we're only going after the location where the illegal is hired, the site-specific requirement. And most people agree that that's fair. In addition we want to exempt critical infrastructures, like utilities. Obviously, we don't want to shut down A.P.S. because they did some bad hiring. And I'm fine with that. But a lot of people are using the need to do amendments as an opportunity to weaken and even gut the bill. And there are a large number of proposals that I would oppose. Specifically some people want to ban anonymous complaints. That's not appropriate. They've been used by law enforcement historically. Some of them are bogus and you don't really pursue them but some are really insightful because they come from employees. Some people want to say only business licenses can be removed. But that would allow some businesses to escape any punishment because not everybody has those types of licenses. We have to be able to go after corporations. Some people want to increase the burden of proof to make it more difficult. That's no good. Some people want to get rid of e. Tool to identify. Some people want to give absolute immunity to a business that uses e-verify and gets clearance, even though that business may know the person is illegal based upon fraudulent documents.

Ted Simons: Then is there a threat? That's a lot of information right there. Is there a threat that if all those things are addressed and in some way changed, the folks pushing an initiative might get their way and then you've got no way to tinker?

Ben Miranda: Let me go back to what john just outlined. I think it's real important. John just outlined a series, laundry lists of things in dispute or being debated in the legislature and some I'm sure he agrees with and doesn't agree with. Ted, the real solution is right before us. I mean, it's staring us right in the face. One of the things that was mentioned in the earlier in the program was the fact that the federal government has been a miserable failure in this area. We have, too. The State Legislature of Arizona has been a miserable failure. Let me tell you something. Why is it that we're not proposing a work permit program on the part of Arizona? We can do that. Why is it that we don't force companies that employ undocumented individuals to pay medical cost that is we all complain about? Why it that we don't require companies to register to bring in permitted workers to this state? Why is it that we're not taking some action specifically to make sure that we require wages to be at a certain level so that we don't undercut those wages? Those are the solutions. But this republican legislature doesn't want to deal with solutions. All they simply want to do is embarrass the governor or other people across the aisle.

Ted Simons: Go back to that initial question. That was a lot of why is there. Answer some of that if you could.

John Kavanagh: First of all, as the governor said and as everyone agrees, it's a federal problem. We really can't get involved with guest worker programs at the state level. I have no problem with guest worker programs. I will give Arizona employees as many guest workers as they need so long as they don't bring in too many where they're going to depress wages for legal residents, not going to displace legal residents and so long as they're properly screened and we don't get criminals. That's a federal issue. It really is. We don't have the power to authorize a guest worker program.

Ben Miranda:
Yes, we do.

John Kavanagh;
But we do have the power to do employer sanctions. Last year the federal government prosecuted 100 businesses for hiring illegals nationwide. There is no federal enforcement. That's why we have to do it.

Ben Miranda:
John, do you think for one minute that a company is going to employ undocumented workers or do it improperly if they're forced to pay all the medical cost that is the state has to bear for these individuals? Also if they forego utilizing a work permit program? We have the power to do work permit program. We have the power to place the burden of medical costs on these companies. Republicans won't do it.

John Kavanagh:
I'm not going to let illegals get any benefits. Illegals leave the country and we bring in people who have been obeying our laws, waiting on waiting lists in foreign countries. I want those decent people to come in only to the extent that Arizona needs the labor and we don't destroy our own labor.

Ben Miranda:
I think what you're talking about is continuing to play a cat and mouse game. That's what republicans are interested, in playing a cat and mouse game with the worker, making it intolerable for that worker to live in the state of Arizona. I agree with you. Let's make the law something everyone can comply with. Let's force the companies to bear the problem they've created.

John Kavanagh:
we want to make it intolerable for illegal aliens to live in Arizona, to work in Arizona. [Overlapping speakers]

>> No. I cosponsored the sanctions law. I want any company that knowingly hires illegal aliens to be suspended and eventually lose their license.

Ben Miranda:
What about medical costs?

John Kavanagh:
What about them?

Ben Miranda:
Shouldn't those companies have to bear the burden that supposedly undocumented workers are bringing to Arizona? The medical costs? Shouldn't companies that employ these individuals be forced to pay for those medical costs?

John Kavanagh:
No. Because I'm going to deport the illegals. There'll be no medical costs. They'll be in their home country.

Ben Miranda:
John, we've let the problem now accelerate to the point that we should have stopped it in the beginning if we had forced companies to deal with responsibly with their role in the company of Arizona we wouldn't have this problem. You're avoiding the issue.

John Kavanagh:
I am not going to surrender and tell companies to pay for the medical costs of the illegals. I'm going to get rid of the illegals, sanction the companies, if they do it again I'm going to end the company's existence.

Ben Miranda:
You're surrendering to the companies who say, we want to do business here, play around with an employer sanctions law it. Doesn't make sense. No one knows how to enforce. We allow them to get off.

Ted Simons:
let me get back to the original question I think from way back. That was the idea if you mess around too much with the employer sanctions law as it is you have initiatives out there that are much tougher and that you can't mess around with.

John Kavanagh:
That's correct. And if the competing initiative, the one that's being run by business groups that want to gut the law, if that passes then the more strict employer sanctions law that we can change legislatively with problems it will pass. Because the voters of Arizona consistently pass illegal immigration laws that are tough by 70, 80\%. So I urge the people of the Legislature, don't weaken and gut this bill. Fair but firm. That's what the voter want.

Ted Simons:
are there ways to be fair but firm in terms of this legislation or from where you sit, are employer sanctions so much off the mark there isn't fixing?

Ben Miranda:
It's way off the mark. Everyone admits that. Even across the aisle with republicans they admit it. There's no way that an employer sanctions law will work that would allow -- because of one midnight janitor working at the Palo Verde to close that power station for ten days. There's no way you're going to close a hospital down for 10 days, Ted, just because there's a janitor working or a maintenance worker at that hospital. It doesn't make sense. I want to get at the root of the problem. That's what they don't want to do. That's to force companies to bear the costs of the problem that they've created. What they want to do is tinker around and put these initiatives out there because they know people will vote for them. Because people don't understand that real issue hasn't been dealt with by the republicans.

John Kavanagh:
You want to let them slide, let them exist, let them continue. Once you give them health care, that's fine. Also of course they cause crime. They're a tremendous burden on our educational system. $1.3 billion in correctional costs, education costs and health costs. That's just the illegals. Add to that their children who are citizens entitled to even more bone fits but wouldn't be here if the parents weren't and it's $2 billion a year.

Ben Miranda:
It's a game of… what came first Chicken or the egg? What came first, companies luring these people because they weren't providing medical insurance that obviously was a burden for that company to incur? What came first here, John? We should have solved the issue at the beginning and forced the companies --

John Kavanagh:
I don't know what came first. I know what's going first. Illegal immigration.

Ben Miranda:
The Republicans will not force them to be responsible.

John Kavanagh:
We did, we are giving the death penalty on the second conviction.

Ted Simons:
We're running out of time. There are a lot of other bills being talked about and being considered. We don't have the time to go through each one of them. How likely do you think that there will be more bills passed and waiting on the governor's desk regarding illegal immigration?

John Kavanagh:
There won't be any. My criminal trespass day labor bill is coming back with the improvements the governor requested. I hope she's going to now pass it. We want to end what's happening in Pruitt's. Going to have a bill challenging birth right citizenship, challenge that warped interpretation of the constitution and one of the most important, ending sanctuary cities.

Ted Simon:
Final word. How likely those things he's talking about, how likely to get through?

Ben Miranda:
I don't know how likely it is. But there won't be a bill on the governor's desk that says Wal-mart has to play for employees who utilize access system that are here without documentation or any employer in the state of Arizona. You simply won't get that kind of bill before the governor because this legislature doesn't want to deal with holding businesses responsible for the prop they're created.

Ted Simons:
Gentlemen, we'll leave it right there. Thank you so much for joining us.

>> Thank you.

Ted Simons:
The New England Patriots and New York Giants are in town. All sorts of parties and events all the way around the valley. It will continue until Super Bowl 42 is played this Sunday. If you have kids or a kid at heart, think about visiting Glendale for the NFL experience. We checked it out with five kids who couldn't believe their luck when they had the run of the place.

Larry Lemmons:
Think about it. What would happen if you put five well-behaved, football-loving young gentlemen into a pigskin fantasy in they'd have the NFL experience.

Christine Mills:
The NFL experience is football's theme park. There's something for everyone, every age, kids from 2 to 92.

Matt Paulsen:
All right. You start right here.

>> Okay.

>> You go through those Gatorade things right here.

>> Yeah.

Larry Lemmons: Matt Paulsen of the NFL Experience shows Andrew and Taylor Philipsen and Brandon and Evan and -- how to attack the course like the pros.

>> See those red pads? You tackle the guy at the end on follow through on to that big Gatorade mat.

>> okay.

Larry Lemmons:
For 17-years now, the NFL Experience has accompanied the super bowl. That's older than any of these kids. And in that time, it's grown from being known as a card show in its first appearance in Minneapolis to now spanning 1 million square feet on the west side of University of Phoenix Stadium.

Christine Mills:
We'll have about 175,000 people come through over the course of the two weeks we're open to the public.

Larry Lemmons:
The NFL says it realizes that many who are interested will not be able to get super bowl tickets. But the NFL Experience is a way to be part of the larger party.

Christine Mills:
If you don't have a ticket to the super bowl, this is where you want to come.

Ted Simons:
Ticket prices for the NFL experience are $17.50 for adults and $12.50 for kids under 12. It will be open again this Thursday from 3:00 to midnight, Friday from 3:00 to 10:00, and then Saturday from 10:00 to 10:00. And speaking of the Super Bowl, that event plus the F.B.R. open is expected to bring an estimated 225,000 visitors to Arizona. Additional emergency services are likely to be needed with all those folks in town. Our Arizona seven level one trauma centers are prepared to deliver emergency medical services? Here to talk about that a trauma center physician, Chris Salvino, Director of the Level one Trauma Center at John C. Lincoln North Mountain Hospital -- and Michelle Pabis, Director of Government Relations at Scottsdale Health Care. Thank you for joining me here. Before we get into discussion on trauma centers, doctor, what is a level one trauma center?

Chris Salvino:
It actually has all the bells and whistles to take care of the most complicated trauma incidents. We have a trauma surgeon available living at the hospital, another trauma surgeon at home ready to come in at a moment's notice, a CAT scan machine, anesthesiologist sleeping there. Compared to a non-trauma center which can take care of great patient care for non-emergent care, you would go to an emergency room.

Ted Simons:
It sounds like it's a lot more expensive.

Chris Salvino:
Very expensive.

Ted Simons:
Where does that money come from? Do level one centers come from casino games? Some, correct?

Chris Salvino:
Some of the money, proposition 202 money comes from casino gambling. About $23 million per year. But it's much more expensive than that. I think collectively for the state the state's lost over $90 million last year alone on uncompensated funding.

Ted Simons:
Michelle, I know there's concern regarding rural areas, areas far from the level one trauma centers. Talk about that and the coordination that is there now but needs to be better.

Michelle Pabis:
As Dr. Salvino said, really the trauma center is a coordinated system. All the level one trauma centers work together throughout the state. We just don't service the Scottsdale participation of Maricopa County but the entire state. What's important is there is communication and coordination. Because really for trauma sent patients, those 60 minutes of the golden hour are important. So we work throughout the state in working with first responds to be able to triage a patient and get them where they need to be and then have, as the doctor said, the staff ready to go in the trauma center to meet that patient and their needs.

Ted Simons:
does it help to have some rural hospitals as level four centers, level three centers?

Michelle Pabis:
It's really a coordinated system. The Arizona department of health services, bureau of emergency management, is really charged with developing our statewide system. We also work with the American College of Surgeons to come in and verify level one trauma centers. So yes, it's important that we not only have level one trauma centers but have a system in place so everybody is working together again to get that right patient to the right place at the right time.

Ted Simons:
Doctor, how is this coordination going in Arizona right now? What would you like to see changed or improved?

Chris Salvino:
I think it's wonderful. The theater hospitals coming into level one are great. The helicopter companies have done a great job providing coverage throughout the state which is wonderful for our rural state. So patients up north in a bad car accident in the middle of nowhere is usually coming down by helicopter do you know to the Phoenix or Tucson or Flagstaff market. I think for the most part things are actually running fairly well. There are always things that can be improved. Having some of the small hospitals come into level three or level four. The really sick people are still going to come down to the metro areas.

Ted Simons:
I know Tucson lost a level one center not too long ago. Was that purely financial?

Chris Salvino:
The Tucson went from two to one level one trauma centers. The remaining hospital is stretch today the brim.

Ted Simons:
Michelle, I guess money is always a factor here. I know the legislature helps with the money and you guys always can use more money. But these are tough times as far as the budget is concerned. Talk about that and the dynamic that's being played here in terms of you guys needing what may not be there.

Michelle Pabis:
Sure. What I think most of you don't realize, even our lawmakers that don't understand what a trauma center is and how resource intensive it is. We were really on brink of disaster back in 2002 when the voters passed proposition 202 to provide some help with un-recovered trauma costs. So the legislature will be hearing from our trauma physicians, our nurses, our former patients on Thursday, January 31st. We go to the capitol to really educate our lawmakers on what a trauma center is and why it's important. Trauma is the leading cause of death in Arizonans 44 and younger. It really is a public health issue, about keeping our state strong and continuing to grow our trauma system. Because it is a real issue in rural Arizona getting those patients here, getting those first responders able to respond to what the situation is and triage that patient to get them where they need to be.

Ted Simons:
Doctor, severe cuts, the money theoretically going away. What happens? Where does it come from? What happens to level one trauma centers?

Chris Salvino:
It's a wonderful question. I'm not sure anybody has the answer. The seven level ones right now I think are stretched very thin. As we talked about they've lost more than $90 million last year in uncompensated funding despite the $20 million coming from the gambling money. If that $20 million went away it's possible the straw that broke the camel's back. Possible level ones will shut doors down. We don't know. I think it's a real risk if the money goes away to find out what could happen.

Ted Simons:
I understand something could be happening in a day or two at the capitol regarding ways to show -- what's this all about?

Michelle Pabis:
that's our trauma center day at the Arizona state capitol on Thursday, as I mentioned there'll be over 80 trauma surgeons, nurses and patients. That tells you how important trauma centers are that people are willing to take time away from their day job. That's also important for our lawmakers to see the folks on the front line ready to respond and really learning what a trauma center is. We're not just treating patients, we're doing research, education, injury prevention. At Scottsdale health care we actually do a partnership with the military and train their trauma surgeons in our trauma centers. It's a real partnership.


Ted Simons: is there a state right now doing it so well that you would like lawmakers to say, hey, look at them?

Michelle Pabis:
You know, I think each state is growing. And really Arizona today has been a model for other states. What we are finding, though, it does take a large investment of resource and a commitment by both the medical centers and the legislature as well.

Ted Simons:
Is it simple resources, doctor, or are there ways to change things around to maybe match some other state that's doing things especially well?

Chris Salvino:
It's a combination of a lot of things. But I think those resources if they go away will be a huge burden on our seven level ones and other hospitals in the state, too.

Ted Simons:
If you had the ear of the law make right now, what would you say?

Chris Salvino:
Don't cut the funding.

Ted Simons:
Yeah. As simple as that.

Chris Salvino:
Don't cut the funding or it's possible one of your loved ones will end up in a bad accident and not be able to survive the.

Ted Simons:
Is it that simple? Do not cut the funding?

Michelle Pabis:
I think it's really to understand the value that trauma centers play in this community and that we serve a vital public role especially with the amount of people that are in town now with the Super Bowl and the F.B.R. open, we really are on the front lines ready to respond 24-hours a day, seven days a week to the major trauma that occur every day.

Ted Simons:
I'm sure the super bowl will keep everyone busy. Thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

Ted Simons:
Coming up tomorrow on Horizon, state lawmakers talk about efforts to balance find out if plans include borrowing to build schools or simply delaying new school construction. Please visit our website, azpbs.org/horizon for video and transcript of horizon. Thanks for joining us. I'm Ted Simons. You have a great evening.

NFL Experience

  |   Video
  • If you don't have a Super Bowl ticket, but want to get a feel for it, you might want to try the NFL Experience in Glendale. HORIZON was there when some lucky kids had the run of the place.
Guests:
  • John Kavanagh - State Representative
  • Ben Miranda - State Representative
  • Chris Salvino - Director, Level One Trauma Center, John C. Lincoln North Mountain Hospital
Category: Business/Economy

View Transcript
Ted Simons:
Tonight on Horizon, Arizona immigration policy. We begin our series on the state legislature with a look at state laws dealing with immigration. Plus, are you ready for some football? The NFL Experience comes to Glendale. And with all those visitors coming to the valley, how are Arizona's trauma centers prepared to deliver emergency services? Those stories next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by contributions from the friends of eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Ted Simons:
Good evening and welcome to horizon. I'm Ted Simons. In the first part of our annual series on the key issues facing the legislature, we examine the bills that are being introduced this session to address Arizona's illegal immigration problem. First, Merry Lucero looks at why a number of policy makers, democrats and republicans, are saying the federal government has not done enough to curb illegal immigration in Arizona.

Crowd:
Si se puede!

Merry Lucero:
The public debates over illegal immigration for the most part is pretty clearly divided.

Man: …
But if you're illegal, you must go!

Merry Lucero:
But there is one complaint about immigration policy echoed by those who would normally disagree.

Gov. Napolitano:
When it comes to regaining control of immigration, the federal government has been a miserable failure.

Thayer Verschoor:
And I agree with the governor. The feds have failed in this area. And as a result of that, failure we've had to step up and we're going to continue to step up.

Nancy Barto:
That is probably one of the only unifying positions that both sides of the aisle have in come on is that federal government has not done what they are supposed to do to protect us. Securing the border, dealing with employers the way they should, allowing enough legal workers to satisfy the economic realities in the southern states and other states around the country.

Dennis Burke:
There's no one who is going to defend the status quo of our current immigration system. You'll hear it from democrat, republican, conservative, liberal, across the spectrum. There's no defense of the current system. There is unbelievably large frustration at the state level. Because the belief is that lack of federal action is putting more and more pressure on the state officials and local officials.

Merry Lucero:
Last year, federal legislation was created but not passed.

Dennis Burke:
They engaged last year in what they called comprehensive reform. Then they failed to get the votes and walked away from it. They basically just kicked the can down the road. And now back in Washington they've basically said to the states and to Americans, "we're not going to be able to resolve this. You'll have to wait until the next president comes into office and the next congress."

Merry Lucero:
Major federal challenges--fixing the antiquated visa system and securing the border. Many say past federal policy even made Arizona's illegal immigration problem worse.

Dennis Burke:
The frustration for Arizona is the federal policy actually funnels crossers into Arizona. Its added additional resources and security in California, New Mexico and Texas, with the exact purpose of funneling them up through Arizona. And without then providing the resources for Arizona to deal with that problem. Then we become a network for the rest of the country, for undocumented individuals.

Merry Lucero:
While some regulations are beyond the reach of state and local policymakers, most agree Arizona must do what it can.

Gov. Napolitano:
And until there is comprehensive immigration reform by the federal government, we will have to deal with these problems.

Merry Lucero:
So state lawmakers addressed border security another way. Arizona's employer sanctions law.

Nancy Barto:
We are trying to accomplish border security at the state level by keeping employers legal and helping them to obey the laws. And yet, we're also making it more difficult for them to get the labor that they need. We're really at the mercy of the federal government coming and rectifying that problem.

Merry Lucero:
Until it does, we are likely to see more state and local policies as well as ballot initiatives dealing with illegal immigration. Some of those, tougher punishments for criminal acts like human smuggling operations and criminal trespass.

Ted Simons:
Joining me now to talk about immigration related legislation this session State Representative John Kavanagh and State Representative Ben Miranda. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. John, let's start with you. Obviously, Federal Government, no one is happy, no one is pleased. The government doing what it feels is necessary. Employer Sanctions goes through last year. What's going on now with the legislature in terms of "fixing" that legislation?

John Kavanagh: Well, the employer sanctions law had a lot of conditions and facets. And we discovered that there are some things that need to be fixed, specifically we want to make sure that everyone knows that we're only going after the location where the illegal is hired, the site-specific requirement. And most people agree that that's fair. In addition we want to exempt critical infrastructures, like utilities. Obviously, we don't want to shut down A.P.S. because they did some bad hiring. And I'm fine with that. But a lot of people are using the need to do amendments as an opportunity to weaken and even gut the bill. And there are a large number of proposals that I would oppose. Specifically some people want to ban anonymous complaints. That's not appropriate. They've been used by law enforcement historically. Some of them are bogus and you don't really pursue them but some are really insightful because they come from employees. Some people want to say only business licenses can be removed. But that would allow some businesses to escape any punishment because not everybody has those types of licenses. We have to be able to go after corporations. Some people want to increase the burden of proof to make it more difficult. That's no good. Some people want to get rid of e. Tool to identify. Some people want to give absolute immunity to a business that uses e-verify and gets clearance, even though that business may know the person is illegal based upon fraudulent documents.

Ted Simons: Then is there a threat? That's a lot of information right there. Is there a threat that if all those things are addressed and in some way changed, the folks pushing an initiative might get their way and then you've got no way to tinker?

Ben Miranda: Let me go back to what john just outlined. I think it's real important. John just outlined a series, laundry lists of things in dispute or being debated in the legislature and some I'm sure he agrees with and doesn't agree with. Ted, the real solution is right before us. I mean, it's staring us right in the face. One of the things that was mentioned in the earlier in the program was the fact that the federal government has been a miserable failure in this area. We have, too. The State Legislature of Arizona has been a miserable failure. Let me tell you something. Why is it that we're not proposing a work permit program on the part of Arizona? We can do that. Why is it that we don't force companies that employ undocumented individuals to pay medical cost that is we all complain about? Why it that we don't require companies to register to bring in permitted workers to this state? Why is it that we're not taking some action specifically to make sure that we require wages to be at a certain level so that we don't undercut those wages? Those are the solutions. But this republican legislature doesn't want to deal with solutions. All they simply want to do is embarrass the governor or other people across the aisle.

Ted Simons: Go back to that initial question. That was a lot of why is there. Answer some of that if you could.

John Kavanagh: First of all, as the governor said and as everyone agrees, it's a federal problem. We really can't get involved with guest worker programs at the state level. I have no problem with guest worker programs. I will give Arizona employees as many guest workers as they need so long as they don't bring in too many where they're going to depress wages for legal residents, not going to displace legal residents and so long as they're properly screened and we don't get criminals. That's a federal issue. It really is. We don't have the power to authorize a guest worker program.

Ben Miranda:
Yes, we do.

John Kavanagh;
But we do have the power to do employer sanctions. Last year the federal government prosecuted 100 businesses for hiring illegals nationwide. There is no federal enforcement. That's why we have to do it.

Ben Miranda:
John, do you think for one minute that a company is going to employ undocumented workers or do it improperly if they're forced to pay all the medical cost that is the state has to bear for these individuals? Also if they forego utilizing a work permit program? We have the power to do work permit program. We have the power to place the burden of medical costs on these companies. Republicans won't do it.

John Kavanagh:
I'm not going to let illegals get any benefits. Illegals leave the country and we bring in people who have been obeying our laws, waiting on waiting lists in foreign countries. I want those decent people to come in only to the extent that Arizona needs the labor and we don't destroy our own labor.

Ben Miranda:
I think what you're talking about is continuing to play a cat and mouse game. That's what republicans are interested, in playing a cat and mouse game with the worker, making it intolerable for that worker to live in the state of Arizona. I agree with you. Let's make the law something everyone can comply with. Let's force the companies to bear the problem they've created.

John Kavanagh:
we want to make it intolerable for illegal aliens to live in Arizona, to work in Arizona. [Overlapping speakers]

>> No. I cosponsored the sanctions law. I want any company that knowingly hires illegal aliens to be suspended and eventually lose their license.

Ben Miranda:
What about medical costs?

John Kavanagh:
What about them?

Ben Miranda:
Shouldn't those companies have to bear the burden that supposedly undocumented workers are bringing to Arizona? The medical costs? Shouldn't companies that employ these individuals be forced to pay for those medical costs?

John Kavanagh:
No. Because I'm going to deport the illegals. There'll be no medical costs. They'll be in their home country.

Ben Miranda:
John, we've let the problem now accelerate to the point that we should have stopped it in the beginning if we had forced companies to deal with responsibly with their role in the company of Arizona we wouldn't have this problem. You're avoiding the issue.

John Kavanagh:
I am not going to surrender and tell companies to pay for the medical costs of the illegals. I'm going to get rid of the illegals, sanction the companies, if they do it again I'm going to end the company's existence.

Ben Miranda:
You're surrendering to the companies who say, we want to do business here, play around with an employer sanctions law it. Doesn't make sense. No one knows how to enforce. We allow them to get off.

Ted Simons:
let me get back to the original question I think from way back. That was the idea if you mess around too much with the employer sanctions law as it is you have initiatives out there that are much tougher and that you can't mess around with.

John Kavanagh:
That's correct. And if the competing initiative, the one that's being run by business groups that want to gut the law, if that passes then the more strict employer sanctions law that we can change legislatively with problems it will pass. Because the voters of Arizona consistently pass illegal immigration laws that are tough by 70, 80\%. So I urge the people of the Legislature, don't weaken and gut this bill. Fair but firm. That's what the voter want.

Ted Simons:
are there ways to be fair but firm in terms of this legislation or from where you sit, are employer sanctions so much off the mark there isn't fixing?

Ben Miranda:
It's way off the mark. Everyone admits that. Even across the aisle with republicans they admit it. There's no way that an employer sanctions law will work that would allow -- because of one midnight janitor working at the Palo Verde to close that power station for ten days. There's no way you're going to close a hospital down for 10 days, Ted, just because there's a janitor working or a maintenance worker at that hospital. It doesn't make sense. I want to get at the root of the problem. That's what they don't want to do. That's to force companies to bear the costs of the problem that they've created. What they want to do is tinker around and put these initiatives out there because they know people will vote for them. Because people don't understand that real issue hasn't been dealt with by the republicans.

John Kavanagh:
You want to let them slide, let them exist, let them continue. Once you give them health care, that's fine. Also of course they cause crime. They're a tremendous burden on our educational system. $1.3 billion in correctional costs, education costs and health costs. That's just the illegals. Add to that their children who are citizens entitled to even more bone fits but wouldn't be here if the parents weren't and it's $2 billion a year.

Ben Miranda:
It's a game of… what came first Chicken or the egg? What came first, companies luring these people because they weren't providing medical insurance that obviously was a burden for that company to incur? What came first here, John? We should have solved the issue at the beginning and forced the companies --

John Kavanagh:
I don't know what came first. I know what's going first. Illegal immigration.

Ben Miranda:
The Republicans will not force them to be responsible.

John Kavanagh:
We did, we are giving the death penalty on the second conviction.

Ted Simons:
We're running out of time. There are a lot of other bills being talked about and being considered. We don't have the time to go through each one of them. How likely do you think that there will be more bills passed and waiting on the governor's desk regarding illegal immigration?

John Kavanagh:
There won't be any. My criminal trespass day labor bill is coming back with the improvements the governor requested. I hope she's going to now pass it. We want to end what's happening in Pruitt's. Going to have a bill challenging birth right citizenship, challenge that warped interpretation of the constitution and one of the most important, ending sanctuary cities.

Ted Simon:
Final word. How likely those things he's talking about, how likely to get through?

Ben Miranda:
I don't know how likely it is. But there won't be a bill on the governor's desk that says Wal-mart has to play for employees who utilize access system that are here without documentation or any employer in the state of Arizona. You simply won't get that kind of bill before the governor because this legislature doesn't want to deal with holding businesses responsible for the prop they're created.

Ted Simons:
Gentlemen, we'll leave it right there. Thank you so much for joining us.

>> Thank you.

Ted Simons:
The New England Patriots and New York Giants are in town. All sorts of parties and events all the way around the valley. It will continue until Super Bowl 42 is played this Sunday. If you have kids or a kid at heart, think about visiting Glendale for the NFL experience. We checked it out with five kids who couldn't believe their luck when they had the run of the place.

Larry Lemmons:
Think about it. What would happen if you put five well-behaved, football-loving young gentlemen into a pigskin fantasy in they'd have the NFL experience.

Christine Mills:
The NFL experience is football's theme park. There's something for everyone, every age, kids from 2 to 92.

Matt Paulsen:
All right. You start right here.

>> Okay.

>> You go through those Gatorade things right here.

>> Yeah.

Larry Lemmons: Matt Paulsen of the NFL Experience shows Andrew and Taylor Philipsen and Brandon and Evan and -- how to attack the course like the pros.

>> See those red pads? You tackle the guy at the end on follow through on to that big Gatorade mat.

>> okay.

Larry Lemmons:
For 17-years now, the NFL Experience has accompanied the super bowl. That's older than any of these kids. And in that time, it's grown from being known as a card show in its first appearance in Minneapolis to now spanning 1 million square feet on the west side of University of Phoenix Stadium.

Christine Mills:
We'll have about 175,000 people come through over the course of the two weeks we're open to the public.

Larry Lemmons:
The NFL says it realizes that many who are interested will not be able to get super bowl tickets. But the NFL Experience is a way to be part of the larger party.

Christine Mills:
If you don't have a ticket to the super bowl, this is where you want to come.

Ted Simons:
Ticket prices for the NFL experience are $17.50 for adults and $12.50 for kids under 12. It will be open again this Thursday from 3:00 to midnight, Friday from 3:00 to 10:00, and then Saturday from 10:00 to 10:00. And speaking of the Super Bowl, that event plus the F.B.R. open is expected to bring an estimated 225,000 visitors to Arizona. Additional emergency services are likely to be needed with all those folks in town. Our Arizona seven level one trauma centers are prepared to deliver emergency medical services? Here to talk about that a trauma center physician, Chris Salvino, Director of the Level one Trauma Center at John C. Lincoln North Mountain Hospital -- and Michelle Pabis, Director of Government Relations at Scottsdale Health Care. Thank you for joining me here. Before we get into discussion on trauma centers, doctor, what is a level one trauma center?

Chris Salvino:
It actually has all the bells and whistles to take care of the most complicated trauma incidents. We have a trauma surgeon available living at the hospital, another trauma surgeon at home ready to come in at a moment's notice, a CAT scan machine, anesthesiologist sleeping there. Compared to a non-trauma center which can take care of great patient care for non-emergent care, you would go to an emergency room.

Ted Simons:
It sounds like it's a lot more expensive.

Chris Salvino:
Very expensive.

Ted Simons:
Where does that money come from? Do level one centers come from casino games? Some, correct?

Chris Salvino:
Some of the money, proposition 202 money comes from casino gambling. About $23 million per year. But it's much more expensive than that. I think collectively for the state the state's lost over $90 million last year alone on uncompensated funding.

Ted Simons:
Michelle, I know there's concern regarding rural areas, areas far from the level one trauma centers. Talk about that and the coordination that is there now but needs to be better.

Michelle Pabis:
As Dr. Salvino said, really the trauma center is a coordinated system. All the level one trauma centers work together throughout the state. We just don't service the Scottsdale participation of Maricopa County but the entire state. What's important is there is communication and coordination. Because really for trauma sent patients, those 60 minutes of the golden hour are important. So we work throughout the state in working with first responds to be able to triage a patient and get them where they need to be and then have, as the doctor said, the staff ready to go in the trauma center to meet that patient and their needs.

Ted Simons:
does it help to have some rural hospitals as level four centers, level three centers?

Michelle Pabis:
It's really a coordinated system. The Arizona department of health services, bureau of emergency management, is really charged with developing our statewide system. We also work with the American College of Surgeons to come in and verify level one trauma centers. So yes, it's important that we not only have level one trauma centers but have a system in place so everybody is working together again to get that right patient to the right place at the right time.

Ted Simons:
Doctor, how is this coordination going in Arizona right now? What would you like to see changed or improved?

Chris Salvino:
I think it's wonderful. The theater hospitals coming into level one are great. The helicopter companies have done a great job providing coverage throughout the state which is wonderful for our rural state. So patients up north in a bad car accident in the middle of nowhere is usually coming down by helicopter do you know to the Phoenix or Tucson or Flagstaff market. I think for the most part things are actually running fairly well. There are always things that can be improved. Having some of the small hospitals come into level three or level four. The really sick people are still going to come down to the metro areas.

Ted Simons:
I know Tucson lost a level one center not too long ago. Was that purely financial?

Chris Salvino:
The Tucson went from two to one level one trauma centers. The remaining hospital is stretch today the brim.

Ted Simons:
Michelle, I guess money is always a factor here. I know the legislature helps with the money and you guys always can use more money. But these are tough times as far as the budget is concerned. Talk about that and the dynamic that's being played here in terms of you guys needing what may not be there.

Michelle Pabis:
Sure. What I think most of you don't realize, even our lawmakers that don't understand what a trauma center is and how resource intensive it is. We were really on brink of disaster back in 2002 when the voters passed proposition 202 to provide some help with un-recovered trauma costs. So the legislature will be hearing from our trauma physicians, our nurses, our former patients on Thursday, January 31st. We go to the capitol to really educate our lawmakers on what a trauma center is and why it's important. Trauma is the leading cause of death in Arizonans 44 and younger. It really is a public health issue, about keeping our state strong and continuing to grow our trauma system. Because it is a real issue in rural Arizona getting those patients here, getting those first responders able to respond to what the situation is and triage that patient to get them where they need to be.

Ted Simons:
Doctor, severe cuts, the money theoretically going away. What happens? Where does it come from? What happens to level one trauma centers?

Chris Salvino:
It's a wonderful question. I'm not sure anybody has the answer. The seven level ones right now I think are stretched very thin. As we talked about they've lost more than $90 million last year in uncompensated funding despite the $20 million coming from the gambling money. If that $20 million went away it's possible the straw that broke the camel's back. Possible level ones will shut doors down. We don't know. I think it's a real risk if the money goes away to find out what could happen.

Ted Simons:
I understand something could be happening in a day or two at the capitol regarding ways to show -- what's this all about?

Michelle Pabis:
that's our trauma center day at the Arizona state capitol on Thursday, as I mentioned there'll be over 80 trauma surgeons, nurses and patients. That tells you how important trauma centers are that people are willing to take time away from their day job. That's also important for our lawmakers to see the folks on the front line ready to respond and really learning what a trauma center is. We're not just treating patients, we're doing research, education, injury prevention. At Scottsdale health care we actually do a partnership with the military and train their trauma surgeons in our trauma centers. It's a real partnership.


Ted Simons: is there a state right now doing it so well that you would like lawmakers to say, hey, look at them?

Michelle Pabis:
You know, I think each state is growing. And really Arizona today has been a model for other states. What we are finding, though, it does take a large investment of resource and a commitment by both the medical centers and the legislature as well.

Ted Simons:
Is it simple resources, doctor, or are there ways to change things around to maybe match some other state that's doing things especially well?

Chris Salvino:
It's a combination of a lot of things. But I think those resources if they go away will be a huge burden on our seven level ones and other hospitals in the state, too.

Ted Simons:
If you had the ear of the law make right now, what would you say?

Chris Salvino:
Don't cut the funding.

Ted Simons:
Yeah. As simple as that.

Chris Salvino:
Don't cut the funding or it's possible one of your loved ones will end up in a bad accident and not be able to survive the.

Ted Simons:
Is it that simple? Do not cut the funding?

Michelle Pabis:
I think it's really to understand the value that trauma centers play in this community and that we serve a vital public role especially with the amount of people that are in town now with the Super Bowl and the F.B.R. open, we really are on the front lines ready to respond 24-hours a day, seven days a week to the major trauma that occur every day.

Ted Simons:
I'm sure the super bowl will keep everyone busy. Thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

Ted Simons:
Coming up tomorrow on Horizon, state lawmakers talk about efforts to balance find out if plans include borrowing to build schools or simply delaying new school construction. Please visit our website, azpbs.org/horizon for video and transcript of horizon. Thanks for joining us. I'm Ted Simons. You have a great evening.

Trauma Centers

  |   Video
  • The Super Bowl and FBR Open will bring an estimated 225,000 visitors to Arizona. How are Arizona’s seven Level 1 trauma centers prepared to deliver emergency services if needed? Learn about the work that goes on “in the trenches” from a trauma center physician who talks about the policies and procedures that support our state’s centers.
Guests:
  • John Kavanagh - State Representative
  • Ben Miranda - State Representative
  • Chris Salvino - Director, Level One Trauma Center, John C. Lincoln North Mountain Hospital
Category: Medical/Health

View Transcript
Ted Simons:
Tonight on Horizon, Arizona immigration policy. We begin our series on the state legislature with a look at state laws dealing with immigration. Plus, are you ready for some football? The NFL Experience comes to Glendale. And with all those visitors coming to the valley, how are Arizona's trauma centers prepared to deliver emergency services? Those stories next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by contributions from the friends of eight, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Ted Simons:
Good evening and welcome to horizon. I'm Ted Simons. In the first part of our annual series on the key issues facing the legislature, we examine the bills that are being introduced this session to address Arizona's illegal immigration problem. First, Merry Lucero looks at why a number of policy makers, democrats and republicans, are saying the federal government has not done enough to curb illegal immigration in Arizona.

Crowd:
Si se puede!

Merry Lucero:
The public debates over illegal immigration for the most part is pretty clearly divided.

Man: …
But if you're illegal, you must go!

Merry Lucero:
But there is one complaint about immigration policy echoed by those who would normally disagree.

Gov. Napolitano:
When it comes to regaining control of immigration, the federal government has been a miserable failure.

Thayer Verschoor:
And I agree with the governor. The feds have failed in this area. And as a result of that, failure we've had to step up and we're going to continue to step up.

Nancy Barto:
That is probably one of the only unifying positions that both sides of the aisle have in come on is that federal government has not done what they are supposed to do to protect us. Securing the border, dealing with employers the way they should, allowing enough legal workers to satisfy the economic realities in the southern states and other states around the country.

Dennis Burke:
There's no one who is going to defend the status quo of our current immigration system. You'll hear it from democrat, republican, conservative, liberal, across the spectrum. There's no defense of the current system. There is unbelievably large frustration at the state level. Because the belief is that lack of federal action is putting more and more pressure on the state officials and local officials.

Merry Lucero:
Last year, federal legislation was created but not passed.

Dennis Burke:
They engaged last year in what they called comprehensive reform. Then they failed to get the votes and walked away from it. They basically just kicked the can down the road. And now back in Washington they've basically said to the states and to Americans, "we're not going to be able to resolve this. You'll have to wait until the next president comes into office and the next congress."

Merry Lucero:
Major federal challenges--fixing the antiquated visa system and securing the border. Many say past federal policy even made Arizona's illegal immigration problem worse.

Dennis Burke:
The frustration for Arizona is the federal policy actually funnels crossers into Arizona. Its added additional resources and security in California, New Mexico and Texas, with the exact purpose of funneling them up through Arizona. And without then providing the resources for Arizona to deal with that problem. Then we become a network for the rest of the country, for undocumented individuals.

Merry Lucero:
While some regulations are beyond the reach of state and local policymakers, most agree Arizona must do what it can.

Gov. Napolitano:
And until there is comprehensive immigration reform by the federal government, we will have to deal with these problems.

Merry Lucero:
So state lawmakers addressed border security another way. Arizona's employer sanctions law.

Nancy Barto:
We are trying to accomplish border security at the state level by keeping employers legal and helping them to obey the laws. And yet, we're also making it more difficult for them to get the labor that they need. We're really at the mercy of the federal government coming and rectifying that problem.

Merry Lucero:
Until it does, we are likely to see more state and local policies as well as ballot initiatives dealing with illegal immigration. Some of those, tougher punishments for criminal acts like human smuggling operations and criminal trespass.

Ted Simons:
Joining me now to talk about immigration related legislation this session State Representative John Kavanagh and State Representative Ben Miranda. Gentlemen, thank you so much for joining us. John, let's start with you. Obviously, Federal Government, no one is happy, no one is pleased. The government doing what it feels is necessary. Employer Sanctions goes through last year. What's going on now with the legislature in terms of "fixing" that legislation?

John Kavanagh: Well, the employer sanctions law had a lot of conditions and facets. And we discovered that there are some things that need to be fixed, specifically we want to make sure that everyone knows that we're only going after the location where the illegal is hired, the site-specific requirement. And most people agree that that's fair. In addition we want to exempt critical infrastructures, like utilities. Obviously, we don't want to shut down A.P.S. because they did some bad hiring. And I'm fine with that. But a lot of people are using the need to do amendments as an opportunity to weaken and even gut the bill. And there are a large number of proposals that I would oppose. Specifically some people want to ban anonymous complaints. That's not appropriate. They've been used by law enforcement historically. Some of them are bogus and you don't really pursue them but some are really insightful because they come from employees. Some people want to say only business licenses can be removed. But that would allow some businesses to escape any punishment because not everybody has those types of licenses. We have to be able to go after corporations. Some people want to increase the burden of proof to make it more difficult. That's no good. Some people want to get rid of e. Tool to identify. Some people want to give absolute immunity to a business that uses e-verify and gets clearance, even though that business may know the person is illegal based upon fraudulent documents.

Ted Simons: Then is there a threat? That's a lot of information right there. Is there a threat that if all those things are addressed and in some way changed, the folks pushing an initiative might get their way and then you've got no way to tinker?

Ben Miranda: Let me go back to what john just outlined. I think it's real important. John just outlined a series, laundry lists of things in dispute or being debated in the legislature and some I'm sure he agrees with and doesn't agree with. Ted, the real solution is right before us. I mean, it's staring us right in the face. One of the things that was mentioned in the earlier in the program was the fact that the federal government has been a miserable failure in this area. We have, too. The State Legislature of Arizona has been a miserable failure. Let me tell you something. Why is it that we're not proposing a work permit program on the part of Arizona? We can do that. Why is it that we don't force companies that employ undocumented individuals to pay medical cost that is we all complain about? Why it that we don't require companies to register to bring in permitted workers to this state? Why is it that we're not taking some action specifically to make sure that we require wages to be at a certain level so that we don't undercut those wages? Those are the solutions. But this republican legislature doesn't want to deal with solutions. All they simply want to do is embarrass the governor or other people across the aisle.

Ted Simons: Go back to that initial question. That was a lot of why is there. Answer some of that if you could.

John Kavanagh: First of all, as the governor said and as everyone agrees, it's a federal problem. We really can't get involved with guest worker programs at the state level. I have no problem with guest worker programs. I will give Arizona employees as many guest workers as they need so long as they don't bring in too many where they're going to depress wages for legal residents, not going to displace legal residents and so long as they're properly screened and we don't get criminals. That's a federal issue. It really is. We don't have the power to authorize a guest worker program.

Ben Miranda:
Yes, we do.

John Kavanagh;
But we do have the power to do employer sanctions. Last year the federal government prosecuted 100 businesses for hiring illegals nationwide. There is no federal enforcement. That's why we have to do it.

Ben Miranda:
John, do you think for one minute that a company is going to employ undocumented workers or do it improperly if they're forced to pay all the medical cost that is the state has to bear for these individuals? Also if they forego utilizing a work permit program? We have the power to do work permit program. We have the power to place the burden of medical costs on these companies. Republicans won't do it.

John Kavanagh:
I'm not going to let illegals get any benefits. Illegals leave the country and we bring in people who have been obeying our laws, waiting on waiting lists in foreign countries. I want those decent people to come in only to the extent that Arizona needs the labor and we don't destroy our own labor.

Ben Miranda:
I think what you're talking about is continuing to play a cat and mouse game. That's what republicans are interested, in playing a cat and mouse game with the worker, making it intolerable for that worker to live in the state of Arizona. I agree with you. Let's make the law something everyone can comply with. Let's force the companies to bear the problem they've created.

John Kavanagh:
we want to make it intolerable for illegal aliens to live in Arizona, to work in Arizona. [Overlapping speakers]

>> No. I cosponsored the sanctions law. I want any company that knowingly hires illegal aliens to be suspended and eventually lose their license.

Ben Miranda:
What about medical costs?

John Kavanagh:
What about them?

Ben Miranda:
Shouldn't those companies have to bear the burden that supposedly undocumented workers are bringing to Arizona? The medical costs? Shouldn't companies that employ these individuals be forced to pay for those medical costs?

John Kavanagh:
No. Because I'm going to deport the illegals. There'll be no medical costs. They'll be in their home country.

Ben Miranda:
John, we've let the problem now accelerate to the point that we should have stopped it in the beginning if we had forced companies to deal with responsibly with their role in the company of Arizona we wouldn't have this problem. You're avoiding the issue.

John Kavanagh:
I am not going to surrender and tell companies to pay for the medical costs of the illegals. I'm going to get rid of the illegals, sanction the companies, if they do it again I'm going to end the company's existence.

Ben Miranda:
You're surrendering to the companies who say, we want to do business here, play around with an employer sanctions law it. Doesn't make sense. No one knows how to enforce. We allow them to get off.

Ted Simons:
let me get back to the original question I think from way back. That was the idea if you mess around too much with the employer sanctions law as it is you have initiatives out there that are much tougher and that you can't mess around with.

John Kavanagh:
That's correct. And if the competing initiative, the one that's being run by business groups that want to gut the law, if that passes then the more strict employer sanctions law that we can change legislatively with problems it will pass. Because the voters of Arizona consistently pass illegal immigration laws that are tough by 70, 80\%. So I urge the people of the Legislature, don't weaken and gut this bill. Fair but firm. That's what the voter want.

Ted Simons:
are there ways to be fair but firm in terms of this legislation or from where you sit, are employer sanctions so much off the mark there isn't fixing?

Ben Miranda:
It's way off the mark. Everyone admits that. Even across the aisle with republicans they admit it. There's no way that an employer sanctions law will work that would allow -- because of one midnight janitor working at the Palo Verde to close that power station for ten days. There's no way you're going to close a hospital down for 10 days, Ted, just because there's a janitor working or a maintenance worker at that hospital. It doesn't make sense. I want to get at the root of the problem. That's what they don't want to do. That's to force companies to bear the costs of the problem that they've created. What they want to do is tinker around and put these initiatives out there because they know people will vote for them. Because people don't understand that real issue hasn't been dealt with by the republicans.

John Kavanagh:
You want to let them slide, let them exist, let them continue. Once you give them health care, that's fine. Also of course they cause crime. They're a tremendous burden on our educational system. $1.3 billion in correctional costs, education costs and health costs. That's just the illegals. Add to that their children who are citizens entitled to even more bone fits but wouldn't be here if the parents weren't and it's $2 billion a year.

Ben Miranda:
It's a game of… what came first Chicken or the egg? What came first, companies luring these people because they weren't providing medical insurance that obviously was a burden for that company to incur? What came first here, John? We should have solved the issue at the beginning and forced the companies --

John Kavanagh:
I don't know what came first. I know what's going first. Illegal immigration.

Ben Miranda:
The Republicans will not force them to be responsible.

John Kavanagh:
We did, we are giving the death penalty on the second conviction.

Ted Simons:
We're running out of time. There are a lot of other bills being talked about and being considered. We don't have the time to go through each one of them. How likely do you think that there will be more bills passed and waiting on the governor's desk regarding illegal immigration?

John Kavanagh:
There won't be any. My criminal trespass day labor bill is coming back with the improvements the governor requested. I hope she's going to now pass it. We want to end what's happening in Pruitt's. Going to have a bill challenging birth right citizenship, challenge that warped interpretation of the constitution and one of the most important, ending sanctuary cities.

Ted Simon:
Final word. How likely those things he's talking about, how likely to get through?

Ben Miranda:
I don't know how likely it is. But there won't be a bill on the governor's desk that says Wal-mart has to play for employees who utilize access system that are here without documentation or any employer in the state of Arizona. You simply won't get that kind of bill before the governor because this legislature doesn't want to deal with holding businesses responsible for the prop they're created.

Ted Simons:
Gentlemen, we'll leave it right there. Thank you so much for joining us.

>> Thank you.

Ted Simons:
The New England Patriots and New York Giants are in town. All sorts of parties and events all the way around the valley. It will continue until Super Bowl 42 is played this Sunday. If you have kids or a kid at heart, think about visiting Glendale for the NFL experience. We checked it out with five kids who couldn't believe their luck when they had the run of the place.

Larry Lemmons:
Think about it. What would happen if you put five well-behaved, football-loving young gentlemen into a pigskin fantasy in they'd have the NFL experience.

Christine Mills:
The NFL experience is football's theme park. There's something for everyone, every age, kids from 2 to 92.

Matt Paulsen:
All right. You start right here.

>> Okay.

>> You go through those Gatorade things right here.

>> Yeah.

Larry Lemmons: Matt Paulsen of the NFL Experience shows Andrew and Taylor Philipsen and Brandon and Evan and -- how to attack the course like the pros.

>> See those red pads? You tackle the guy at the end on follow through on to that big Gatorade mat.

>> okay.

Larry Lemmons:
For 17-years now, the NFL Experience has accompanied the super bowl. That's older than any of these kids. And in that time, it's grown from being known as a card show in its first appearance in Minneapolis to now spanning 1 million square feet on the west side of University of Phoenix Stadium.

Christine Mills:
We'll have about 175,000 people come through over the course of the two weeks we're open to the public.

Larry Lemmons:
The NFL says it realizes that many who are interested will not be able to get super bowl tickets. But the NFL Experience is a way to be part of the larger party.

Christine Mills:
If you don't have a ticket to the super bowl, this is where you want to come.

Ted Simons:
Ticket prices for the NFL experience are $17.50 for adults and $12.50 for kids under 12. It will be open again this Thursday from 3:00 to midnight, Friday from 3:00 to 10:00, and then Saturday from 10:00 to 10:00. And speaking of the Super Bowl, that event plus the F.B.R. open is expected to bring an estimated 225,000 visitors to Arizona. Additional emergency services are likely to be needed with all those folks in town. Our Arizona seven level one trauma centers are prepared to deliver emergency medical services? Here to talk about that a trauma center physician, Chris Salvino, Director of the Level one Trauma Center at John C. Lincoln North Mountain Hospital -- and Michelle Pabis, Director of Government Relations at Scottsdale Health Care. Thank you for joining me here. Before we get into discussion on trauma centers, doctor, what is a level one trauma center?

Chris Salvino:
It actually has all the bells and whistles to take care of the most complicated trauma incidents. We have a trauma surgeon available living at the hospital, another trauma surgeon at home ready to come in at a moment's notice, a CAT scan machine, anesthesiologist sleeping there. Compared to a non-trauma center which can take care of great patient care for non-emergent care, you would go to an emergency room.

Ted Simons:
It sounds like it's a lot more expensive.

Chris Salvino:
Very expensive.

Ted Simons:
Where does that money come from? Do level one centers come from casino games? Some, correct?

Chris Salvino:
Some of the money, proposition 202 money comes from casino gambling. About $23 million per year. But it's much more expensive than that. I think collectively for the state the state's lost over $90 million last year alone on uncompensated funding.

Ted Simons:
Michelle, I know there's concern regarding rural areas, areas far from the level one trauma centers. Talk about that and the coordination that is there now but needs to be better.

Michelle Pabis:
As Dr. Salvino said, really the trauma center is a coordinated system. All the level one trauma centers work together throughout the state. We just don't service the Scottsdale participation of Maricopa County but the entire state. What's important is there is communication and coordination. Because really for trauma sent patients, those 60 minutes of the golden hour are important. So we work throughout the state in working with first responds to be able to triage a patient and get them where they need to be and then have, as the doctor said, the staff ready to go in the trauma center to meet that patient and their needs.

Ted Simons:
does it help to have some rural hospitals as level four centers, level three centers?

Michelle Pabis:
It's really a coordinated system. The Arizona department of health services, bureau of emergency management, is really charged with developing our statewide system. We also work with the American College of Surgeons to come in and verify level one trauma centers. So yes, it's important that we not only have level one trauma centers but have a system in place so everybody is working together again to get that right patient to the right place at the right time.

Ted Simons:
Doctor, how is this coordination going in Arizona right now? What would you like to see changed or improved?

Chris Salvino:
I think it's wonderful. The theater hospitals coming into level one are great. The helicopter companies have done a great job providing coverage throughout the state which is wonderful for our rural state. So patients up north in a bad car accident in the middle of nowhere is usually coming down by helicopter do you know to the Phoenix or Tucson or Flagstaff market. I think for the most part things are actually running fairly well. There are always things that can be improved. Having some of the small hospitals come into level three or level four. The really sick people are still going to come down to the metro areas.

Ted Simons:
I know Tucson lost a level one center not too long ago. Was that purely financial?

Chris Salvino:
The Tucson went from two to one level one trauma centers. The remaining hospital is stretch today the brim.

Ted Simons:
Michelle, I guess money is always a factor here. I know the legislature helps with the money and you guys always can use more money. But these are tough times as far as the budget is concerned. Talk about that and the dynamic that's being played here in terms of you guys needing what may not be there.

Michelle Pabis:
Sure. What I think most of you don't realize, even our lawmakers that don't understand what a trauma center is and how resource intensive it is. We were really on brink of disaster back in 2002 when the voters passed proposition 202 to provide some help with un-recovered trauma costs. So the legislature will be hearing from our trauma physicians, our nurses, our former patients on Thursday, January 31st. We go to the capitol to really educate our lawmakers on what a trauma center is and why it's important. Trauma is the leading cause of death in Arizonans 44 and younger. It really is a public health issue, about keeping our state strong and continuing to grow our trauma system. Because it is a real issue in rural Arizona getting those patients here, getting those first responders able to respond to what the situation is and triage that patient to get them where they need to be.

Ted Simons:
Doctor, severe cuts, the money theoretically going away. What happens? Where does it come from? What happens to level one trauma centers?

Chris Salvino:
It's a wonderful question. I'm not sure anybody has the answer. The seven level ones right now I think are stretched very thin. As we talked about they've lost more than $90 million last year in uncompensated funding despite the $20 million coming from the gambling money. If that $20 million went away it's possible the straw that broke the camel's back. Possible level ones will shut doors down. We don't know. I think it's a real risk if the money goes away to find out what could happen.

Ted Simons:
I understand something could be happening in a day or two at the capitol regarding ways to show -- what's this all about?

Michelle Pabis:
that's our trauma center day at the Arizona state capitol on Thursday, as I mentioned there'll be over 80 trauma surgeons, nurses and patients. That tells you how important trauma centers are that people are willing to take time away from their day job. That's also important for our lawmakers to see the folks on the front line ready to respond and really learning what a trauma center is. We're not just treating patients, we're doing research, education, injury prevention. At Scottsdale health care we actually do a partnership with the military and train their trauma surgeons in our trauma centers. It's a real partnership.


Ted Simons: is there a state right now doing it so well that you would like lawmakers to say, hey, look at them?

Michelle Pabis:
You know, I think each state is growing. And really Arizona today has been a model for other states. What we are finding, though, it does take a large investment of resource and a commitment by both the medical centers and the legislature as well.

Ted Simons:
Is it simple resources, doctor, or are there ways to change things around to maybe match some other state that's doing things especially well?

Chris Salvino:
It's a combination of a lot of things. But I think those resources if they go away will be a huge burden on our seven level ones and other hospitals in the state, too.

Ted Simons:
If you had the ear of the law make right now, what would you say?

Chris Salvino:
Don't cut the funding.

Ted Simons:
Yeah. As simple as that.

Chris Salvino:
Don't cut the funding or it's possible one of your loved ones will end up in a bad accident and not be able to survive the.

Ted Simons:
Is it that simple? Do not cut the funding?

Michelle Pabis:
I think it's really to understand the value that trauma centers play in this community and that we serve a vital public role especially with the amount of people that are in town now with the Super Bowl and the F.B.R. open, we really are on the front lines ready to respond 24-hours a day, seven days a week to the major trauma that occur every day.

Ted Simons:
I'm sure the super bowl will keep everyone busy. Thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it.

Ted Simons:
Coming up tomorrow on Horizon, state lawmakers talk about efforts to balance find out if plans include borrowing to build schools or simply delaying new school construction. Please visit our website, azpbs.org/horizon for video and transcript of horizon. Thanks for joining us. I'm Ted Simons. You have a great evening.


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