Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

May 4, 2005


Host: Michael Grant

science fair


  • Local high school students take science to new heights as they prepare for an international science fair.
Guests:
  • Jon Kyl - U.S. Senator
  • Liz Larsen - Executive Director, Host Committee, Intel ISEF


View Transcript
>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," border security and immigration, judicial appointments and Social Security reform are just some of the topics U.S. Senator Jon Kyl will talk about when he joins us in the studio.

>>> Plus, local high school students take science to new heights as they prepare for an international science fair. That's next on "Horizon."

>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon." Ricky Wassenaar, the prison inmate who took two guards hostage last year in one of the nation's longest prison hostage standoffs, was convicted Wednesday on 19 charges. Those charges include kidnapping, aggravated assault and sexual assault against the female guard he held hostage for 15 days. Wassenaar was serving a 28-year sentence for armed robbery and assault. His sentencing on the new convictions is set for June 3rd.

>> Michael Grant:
The war in Iraq, the security of our borders, our own financial futures here at home, they are topics on many people's minds these days. Senator Jon Kyl serves on the Senate Finance Committee where he chairs the subcommittee on taxation and IRS oversight, and on the judiciary committee where he chairs the terrorism, technology and homeland security subcommittee. Tomorrow Senator Kyl is hosting Michael Chertoff, the new secretary of the Department of Homeland Security here in Arizona. Joining me now is U.S. Senator Jon Kyl.

>> Michael Grant:
Welcome back.

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
I should hasten to add that my colleague John McCain and I are co-hosting.

>> Michael Grant:
What's the event, where is it going to be?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
The object, secretary Chertoff is new in the job. He is an experienced prosecutor, but he's not been to the border, and we're going to take him very quickly to two parts of the border, the Yuma area and Douglas area where most of the illegal immigration is occurring in Arizona and introduce him to some of the people involved, have him talk to some of our military commanders there, the border patrol and others to get a feel for what's going on. It'll help him make decisions at the department about how to allocate, first of all, what resources to ask for and then how to allocate them to the border.

>> Michael Grant:
A few months ago, it was announced that they were put 500 new border agents down on the border. Governor Napolitano greeted that with a shrug and said I'm not all that excited because 2,000 had been promised. Is she on the right track?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
We need more. To that extent, we've all been saying the same thing, but you don't look askance when they say we'll send 550 your way pickup say thanks, that's a good start, now we need some more. That's exactly what, Michael Grant, nicely the Tucson border patrol sector chief has said to us. He said these will help a lot, it's not just troops, it's also new aircraft, helicopters, some cameras, some lights, more fencing. All of those things. He believes that we can continue with progress, that it is possible to get control of the border. His point is don't think it's not possible. It is, if we simply allocate the resources to the job.

>> Michael Grant:
What was your feeling about the minutemen effort last month?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
I was concerned originally, but I think frankly, at the end of the day, they actually performed a service by drawing attention to the problem, and because they didn't, at least with perhaps one minor exception, create any problems themselves, they had credibility, which then enabled them to draw attention to the problem in a way that was constructive. And it actually did, you know, colleagues that I've been talking to for years trying to get them to support our efforts here, finally started watching these stories on TV and said hey, there is a real problem down there isn't there and I say yes, that's what we've been saying for a long time. So to that extent their presence there was quite helpful to us.

>> Michael Grant:
One of the things it illustrated though, was didn't they cover a 20 mile span, but one of the things it illustrated again was that it was having the -- for lack of a better term, the balloon effect. What was happening was the illegals coming across the border at those locations slowed down dramatically in that time but picked up, for example, over the Tohono O'odham reservation and in a microcosm is demonstrated what has been happening for a long time.

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
The interesting thing about that, what we're told is that officials south of the border, primarily the Mexican police force, which is there primarily to protect illegal immigrants, was concerned that if they crossed the border in the area of the minutemen, they might get hurt, so they warned everybody away. They said don't cross here now. And what it demonstrated was that if the Mexican authorities would cooperate with us, they could actually help us substantially reduce the illegal immigration, because it was reduced in that area. And if they were able to do that throughout the border, it would be a lot easier on our border patrol, but, of course, that isn't, at least as they perceive it, in their best interest, so they are not helping us.

>> Michael Grant:
Well, you know, it's one thing not to help, but I know an awful lot of people were irritated to put it mildly, when the Mexican government itself publishes a brochure basically instructing people on how to get across the border. You would think diplomat particularly that somehow we could adjust that attitude in the Mexican government.

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
And I don't understand why. We've written to the state department. I've talked to officials. There is a reluctance to talk truth to power down there, and there are two ways that the Mexicans are aided by illegal immigration. First of all, it relieves the pressure on their own society, which can't produce the jobs necessary to put all of the people there to work. And secondly, there is a huge amount of repatriated money coming back into Mexico from the people working here, both legally and illegally. I think on the order of something like $17 billion a year. But my point is, you could have those same two objects achieved if we had a legal immigration system, which would accommodate workers coming across the border legally, and they could still repatriate money back to money, so why don't you cooperate with us to stop the illegal immigration, and have your folks work through a legal system for best workers that we would like to establish in this country.

>> Michael Grant:
Well, why? Why won't that -- why aren't they responsive to that?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
I don't know whether first of all we've really taken that case to them at the diplomatic levels where it would be necessary to make it work. There is a certain amount of corruption in the Mexican government, and that may have something to do with it. I certainly don't attribute that to the top levels with Vicente Fox and so on, but I really don't understand why they wouldn't be more willing to help us put into place a legal framework to take the place of this illegal framework which harms a lot of Mexicans, not only with substandard wages and working conditions up here, but also all of those poor people who try to go across the desert in the summer time and find that they can't make it and many of them end up dying.

>> Michael Grant:
Are we going to see any progress on that issue in Congress this year or next year?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
I think so. All of us have a different idea about how to solve the problem, but there is a consensus that it has got to be addressed this year. I believe the senate will vote on bills later on this year. I don't know whether we'll get a consensus on anything that can pass both the senate and the house, but I think there is a fairly good shot at it, and at least I'm going to try and I know many others are too.

>> Michael Grant:
Let me shift to the war and the peace for that matter in Iraq. Unfortunately, the terrorism, the violence, the bombings continue over there. On the other hand, after the elections earlier this year, they do seem to be making progress in terms of trying to put a government together, a free, Democratic government. What's your take on where we are right now? And for that matter, when, if at all, we can possibly get out?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
Well, the government is formed. It took a while, but after all, compared to the United States when we converted after the revolution, it took us about 13 years to put a government together. And it's very difficult circumstances over there with insurgents constantly attacking anybody that cooperates with the government. They've got it done and it appears to be done right now. Attacks are up, although we just caught another really bad guy over there. If he talks, we'll be able to round up some more. So there are a lot of good news stories, but every day, there are attacks. As to the question about when we'll be able to come back, the answer is when the Iraqis believe they have adequate control over their own country with their own forces that they don't need our presence there anymore, it'll be time for us to leave. Clearly that time is not yet, but we are much more effectively now training the Iraqi police and military, and that's one of the really good news stories at the moment. There is still no lack of recruits, even though they are being targeted and attacked and in many cases wounded and in some cases killed, they are still volunteering and that's a very, very good sign.

>> Michael Grant:
Social Security reform. The president going back out on the stump trying to inspire on that subject. A lot of indication that he is not getting to the general populace. Do you see it differently?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
It depends on which polls you read. If you take the first question, is there a problem, remember his opponents denied that there was a problem. He talks about the retirement accounts as one of the solutions. They say that's a nonstarter. He came up with a different approach being propounded by a Democrat economics professor, I think. No, they don't like that idea either. I think the president is right to say, look, every time I come up with an idea you say no. Put something on the table, let's talk about it.

>> Michael Grant:
Come up with an idea?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
Yeah. I think at the end of the day, we'll be voting on something, and if we have help from the Democratic minority in putting it together, it'll have a good chance of passing. If they don't want to put any ideas on the table and it's our own plan, we probably can't pass it because it would take 06 votes, but we're going to give it a try.

>> Michael Grant:
Senator isn't one of the problems here that Social Security is the third rail in politics. President Bush has the luxury of being a second term president, but isn't one of the problems that there is an awful lot of politicians? You are running next year, who still view this as the third rail of American politics?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
I really don't. I think the American people can distinguish between a purely political employ and a problem that needs to be addressed. The fact that the president is subject to a lot of criticism in raising it ought to prove that he is not doing this for political purposes. We've got a problem, and adults, serious leaders, try to deal with those problems. Now, if the other side wants to play politics with it and say we don't like any of your ideas, you're wrong, no, no, no, that may be good politics in the short run, but I'm not sure it's good politics in the long run. I think people respect leaders who are willing to tackle the tough problems and try to come up with solutions. And with these really difficult problems, they take, sometimes, a lot of time. Remember welfare reform took a long time. Ronald Reagan was talking about it. It got done --

>> Michael Grant:
under Bill Clinton.

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
Not in spite of, he vetoed it twice but he was talked into signing it. It took a long time. It could be that Social Security is the same way. The politics of it now, if I were an opponent, I would stop thinking this is a juicy political way to hurt the president and his supporters and stop to think about maybe in the long run it's going to hurt them because they'll be seen as obstructionists and people that don't have any ideas.

>> Michael Grant:
Let me cycle back to eye U.S. senate piece of rules business. Are you in favor of changing the rules on filibusters on judicial appointments?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
I'm in favor of restoring the 200-plus year tradition of an up or down vote on all judicial nominees. Never in the history of the senate, never, until two years ago, was a nominee to the bench that had majority support denied confirmation by a filibuster. Never happened. Two years ago the minorities started doing that and they did it to 16 of the president's circuit court nominees as a result of which President Bush has the lowest percentage of circuit court nominees confirmed of any president in modern history. We need to go back to that tradition of 200-plus years and get the up or down votes that these people deserve. If senators don't like the candidates, if they think they are disqualified or for some reason they shouldn't be sitting, they can vote no, but give them an up or down vote. That's what they deserve.

>> Michael Grant
: If you change the rules on that subject, though, do you run the risk of unbalancing the great debating society that is the United States senate?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
No, senators will never give up their right to filibuster legislation. Legislation is within the body. We are a legislative body. We produce bills. We debate them, we change them. And a filibuster is effective to put pressure on one side to modify it. That's frequently used. Senators will never give that up. But when the president nominates a judge to sit on a court, you've got the other two branches of government involved, and the constitution there gives the senate a very explicit direction, advice and consent. The president gets to nominate and you vote on that person. In the past, we voted up or down. We defeated some and approved most. You can't modify the legislation like we do in the filibuster. That judge is approved or not approved. The filibuster is inappropriate. As I said, up until two years ago, it had never been used to defeat a candidate that has majority support. And most of these nominees of the president do have majority support.

>> Michael Grant:
Arizona Senator Jon Kyl we appreciate the time as always.

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
Thank you, Michael Grant.

>> Michael Grant:
For some young scientists, it could be the origin of a career. The Intel International Science and Engineering Fair is the world's largest pre-college science fair. The host committee, made up of leaders from organizations around the valley, lobbied four years ago for the fair to be hosted in Phoenix. This year, they got their wish. Event supporters, participants and volunteers will bring an estimated $8 to $10 million to Arizona. Producer Merry Lucero and videographer Scot Olson show us how some are preparing for the science competition.

>> Diana Eheart:
The project I did is based on ecstasy abuse and the neurotoxicity of the cell and the cell death that occurs after ecstasy and looking at a treatment to try to bring those cells back or rescue those cells, the depletion as well as the behavioral side effects of ecstasy.

>> Andrew Gamalski:
Basically what we are trying to do is use math to minimize waste in a factory setting, so we're going to try to put a job coming into a factory, you could say chips, going into a semiconductor plant, we're attempting to put them in the best order so that waste is minimized and profits are maximized for the company.

>> Reya Das:
I'm conducting various color fastness tests which would be the consumer side to see which cloth and dye combination would be the best in the fact that the dye would stay on the cloth, and I am doing various environmental tests to see the impact it has on the environment to see if it will be detrimental.

>> Merry Lucero:
You might think these young scientists are seasoned researchers, well into their careers. In reality, they are honors science students at Hamilton high school in Chandler. They are preparing projects for the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair or ISEF.

>> Theresa Clark:
Some of them really have their paths laid out. Some students know they are going to be in engineering. Others know they are going to be in political science, so they have their paths laid out, but there are others that just like this topic, and they just want to investigate it, and they just want to do a project.

>> Merry Lucero:
Students are required to spend a minimum of three hours a week outside of class on their projects. Most of them spend much more.

>> Theresa Clark:
Most of them spend hundreds of hours of time outside of the class, so it's something that they're intrinsically motivated about, and so they don't mind spending the extra time on them.

>> Merry Lucero:
While they will compete for tuition grants, internships, scientific field trips and the grand prize, a $50,000 college scholarship, these students enter ISEF for reasons other than money.

>> Andrew Gamalski:
Of course, the most important thing is being able to work in a laboratory and get this work published. That is really what research is all about, because I intend to go into research in the future and that should give me the vital experience necessary to go about my career because I ultimately want to become a professor some day.

>> Diana Eheart:
I've been able to adjust my project so that I'm able to compete with this particular project and just presenting is going to be really exciting. I really don't care if I win, but just making it that far to be able to present is really exciting for me.

>> Merry Lucero:
These students have won high school and regional competitions to qualify for ISEF. Reya Das, had to scrap her first project and start all over again.

>> Reya Das:
I had a research binder this thick. I had it filled with all my data -- not all my data -- all my information, background, research, and I switched projects. I've got another three-inch binder filled with stuff about dyes this time.

>> Merry Lucero:
So being selected for ISEF was a great surprise?

>> Reya Das:
Because I had to change my entire project. There was a problem with getting the materials on time, and so it was a project in which I had spent hours upon hours upon hours, especially as we got closer, and so I wasn't at all expecting to go to ISEF. So it was the cherry on top.

>> Merry Lucero:
1400 students from 40 nations entered ISEF. 26 Arizona students will compete in the fair.

>> Theresa Clark:
Students are excited here because they know we have four projects going, so now they are more interested in what it is all about, so if nothing else, it's generated a huge interest in science.

>> Merry Lucero:
ISEF encourages more participation in science fairs and fosters young scientists. The fair benefits students around the world, and this year, especially in Arizona.

>> Michael Grant:
Here to talk more about the Intel ISEF is executive director of the host committee, Liz Larsen.

>> Michael Grant:
I'm smiling, Liz, because I sort of dimly recall my science project, I guess back 6th grade or something. Really wasn't that complicated. These kids are very bright and they are getting into some very, very complicated, difficult subjects.

>> Liz Larsen:
Absolutely. I've talked about the fair for years now and the first thing I say to a lot of folks is these aren't volcanoes, the old volcano joke and science fairs. Most of these kids, a lot of these kids work with research intensive universities on their research. 20\% of the finalists come in either having filed a patent or with a patent already, so it's really cutting edge science. These are the scientists of the future.

>> Michael Grant:
Age range, I think you told me 12 to 19?

>> Liz Larsen:
12-19; correct.

>> Michael Grant:
And we mentioned also 26 Arizona students competing at the fair. One of the finalists is working with TGEN on cancer research?

>> Liz Larsen:
We are very proud to have 26 Arizona students this year at the fair. We have one student working with researchers at TGEN. We have one student who just received a Flynn scholarship, so, again, very bright, very talented young adults.

>> Michael Grant:
Let me hit the rewind button here and back up to the start. Who makes up the host committee?

>> Liz Larsen:
We have a host committee of about 70 individuals, movers and shakers in Arizona. I think it's important to note that this is an all volunteer effort. These people have put in a tremendous amount of time and energy and in many cases, many to make this fair happen.

>> Michael Grant:
You lobbied, you being the host committee, lobbied for the fair about four years ago. Why?

>> Liz Larsen:
A couple of reasons. We wanted to use the fair as a springboard to really improve science education in the State of Arizona to, build relationships between the universities, the schools, and local corporations. It's also -- it's a very prestigious event. It's like hosting the Super Bowl. So it's a good opportunity for us to bring some of these best and brightest scientists into Arizona and show what a great place Arizona is. We hope these -- some of these students will go to one of our three universities. We hope they'll come back and become part of our high-tech work force here in Arizona.

>> Michael Grant:
The event itself is at the Civic Plaza?

>> Liz Larsen:
Civic Plaza.

>> Michael Grant:
You take command of it for about a week?

>> Liz Larsen:
Absolutely. We have the entire Civic Plaza for an entire week and we're using every inch of it. It's a huge undertaking.

>> Michael Grant:
And it's a tremendous amount of square feet but I suppose with 1400 participants, is the process that they set up in stages and you have judging in stages and there is sort of a turnover process to go through that many?

>> Liz Larsen:
The students start coming into the fair on Sunday, and they go through a process of setup and approval between Sunday and Tuesday. On Wednesday, we have a thousand individuals who have volunteered their entire day, many of these folks are PhDs to judge these students, and it's a wonderful opportunity to -- for them to see some of the latest science, and then on Thursday and Friday -- Thursday, we have the educational outreach day where Arizona students come through the fair, and we have about 30 interactive displays in our discovery room from local corporations and institutions, so it will be fun for the public as well on Thursday.

>> Michael Grant:
Estimated local economic benefit $8-$10 million. How does that work?

>> Liz Larsen:
We're bringing in 6500 people from 40 different countries to Phoenix. They are going to be staying in Phoenix. They are going to be eating in Phoenix. We are running tours to probably 30 different locations, including the Grand Canyon, Karchner caverns, Sonoran desert museum. So it has a tremendous economic impact.

>> Michael Grant:
Curious, 1400 participants. What's the male/female mix?

>> Michael Grant:
It's about 50-50.

>> Michael Grant:
Obviously the emphasis -- I don't know what even blank to fill in here, 15, 20 years or so, has been to try to get more girls interested in math and science. That would seem to indicate that maybe we're being more successful in that endeavor than we thought?

>> Liz Larsen:
Absolutely. I've met some wonderful women in the last two fairs that I've been to, but, yeah, I think we've done a good job on that front.

>> Michael Grant:
Also a component here is to reach out to middle schools, 6th, 7th, 8th graders with ISEF?

>> Liz Larsen:
Right, part of the host committee's mandate was to try to really impact science education in Arizona. We decided the most effective way to do that was really to reach out to the 6th, 7th and 8th grade and get them excited and show them what they can do.

>> Michael Grant:
You know, we're almost out of time, and Liz I promised you -- some interpreters are needed?

>> Liz Larsen:
Right, we have -- this fair, as I mentioned, it's a wonderful community activity. We have a thousand volunteers and we have about 200 interpreters. We need interpreters in 20 different languages. That's one need we still have. We need Mandarin interpreters, Russian and Spanish.

>> Michael Grant:
Liz Larsen, thank you for joining us and talk about it. Best of luck with it. Incidentally, there is a link to the Intel ISEF web site on our web site. You can see transcripts of "Horizon" and you can find out about upcoming topics. Go to the web site, it's www.azpbs.org.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Our state lawmakers playing a game of chicken with the Governor over the budget? Lawmakers are working on a state budget that ties in the Governor's request for all-day kindergarten funding with funding for vouchers, a move that's almost certain to draw a second veto from the government. We'll talk to the Governor about that and more Thursday at 7:00 on "Horizon."

>> Michael Grant:
If you would like to ask the Governor a question, send it via E-mail to horizon@asu.edu. Thank you for joining us on this Wednesday edition of "Horizon." I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one, good night.

senator Jon Kyl


  • U.S. Senator Jon Kyl discusses border security and immigration, judicial appointments and Social Security reform.
Guests:
  • Jon Kyl - U.S. Senator
  • Liz Larsen - Executive Director, Host Committee, Intel ISEF


View Transcript
>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," border security and immigration, judicial appointments and Social Security reform are just some of the topics U.S. Senator Jon Kyl will talk about when he joins us in the studio.

>>> Plus, local high school students take science to new heights as they prepare for an international science fair. That's next on "Horizon."

>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "Horizon." Ricky Wassenaar, the prison inmate who took two guards hostage last year in one of the nation's longest prison hostage standoffs, was convicted Wednesday on 19 charges. Those charges include kidnapping, aggravated assault and sexual assault against the female guard he held hostage for 15 days. Wassenaar was serving a 28-year sentence for armed robbery and assault. His sentencing on the new convictions is set for June 3rd.

>> Michael Grant:
The war in Iraq, the security of our borders, our own financial futures here at home, they are topics on many people's minds these days. Senator Jon Kyl serves on the Senate Finance Committee where he chairs the subcommittee on taxation and IRS oversight, and on the judiciary committee where he chairs the terrorism, technology and homeland security subcommittee. Tomorrow Senator Kyl is hosting Michael Chertoff, the new secretary of the Department of Homeland Security here in Arizona. Joining me now is U.S. Senator Jon Kyl.

>> Michael Grant:
Welcome back.

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
I should hasten to add that my colleague John McCain and I are co-hosting.

>> Michael Grant:
What's the event, where is it going to be?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
The object, secretary Chertoff is new in the job. He is an experienced prosecutor, but he's not been to the border, and we're going to take him very quickly to two parts of the border, the Yuma area and Douglas area where most of the illegal immigration is occurring in Arizona and introduce him to some of the people involved, have him talk to some of our military commanders there, the border patrol and others to get a feel for what's going on. It'll help him make decisions at the department about how to allocate, first of all, what resources to ask for and then how to allocate them to the border.

>> Michael Grant:
A few months ago, it was announced that they were put 500 new border agents down on the border. Governor Napolitano greeted that with a shrug and said I'm not all that excited because 2,000 had been promised. Is she on the right track?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
We need more. To that extent, we've all been saying the same thing, but you don't look askance when they say we'll send 550 your way pickup say thanks, that's a good start, now we need some more. That's exactly what, Michael Grant, nicely the Tucson border patrol sector chief has said to us. He said these will help a lot, it's not just troops, it's also new aircraft, helicopters, some cameras, some lights, more fencing. All of those things. He believes that we can continue with progress, that it is possible to get control of the border. His point is don't think it's not possible. It is, if we simply allocate the resources to the job.

>> Michael Grant:
What was your feeling about the minutemen effort last month?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
I was concerned originally, but I think frankly, at the end of the day, they actually performed a service by drawing attention to the problem, and because they didn't, at least with perhaps one minor exception, create any problems themselves, they had credibility, which then enabled them to draw attention to the problem in a way that was constructive. And it actually did, you know, colleagues that I've been talking to for years trying to get them to support our efforts here, finally started watching these stories on TV and said hey, there is a real problem down there isn't there and I say yes, that's what we've been saying for a long time. So to that extent their presence there was quite helpful to us.

>> Michael Grant:
One of the things it illustrated though, was didn't they cover a 20 mile span, but one of the things it illustrated again was that it was having the -- for lack of a better term, the balloon effect. What was happening was the illegals coming across the border at those locations slowed down dramatically in that time but picked up, for example, over the Tohono O'odham reservation and in a microcosm is demonstrated what has been happening for a long time.

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
The interesting thing about that, what we're told is that officials south of the border, primarily the Mexican police force, which is there primarily to protect illegal immigrants, was concerned that if they crossed the border in the area of the minutemen, they might get hurt, so they warned everybody away. They said don't cross here now. And what it demonstrated was that if the Mexican authorities would cooperate with us, they could actually help us substantially reduce the illegal immigration, because it was reduced in that area. And if they were able to do that throughout the border, it would be a lot easier on our border patrol, but, of course, that isn't, at least as they perceive it, in their best interest, so they are not helping us.

>> Michael Grant:
Well, you know, it's one thing not to help, but I know an awful lot of people were irritated to put it mildly, when the Mexican government itself publishes a brochure basically instructing people on how to get across the border. You would think diplomat particularly that somehow we could adjust that attitude in the Mexican government.

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
And I don't understand why. We've written to the state department. I've talked to officials. There is a reluctance to talk truth to power down there, and there are two ways that the Mexicans are aided by illegal immigration. First of all, it relieves the pressure on their own society, which can't produce the jobs necessary to put all of the people there to work. And secondly, there is a huge amount of repatriated money coming back into Mexico from the people working here, both legally and illegally. I think on the order of something like $17 billion a year. But my point is, you could have those same two objects achieved if we had a legal immigration system, which would accommodate workers coming across the border legally, and they could still repatriate money back to money, so why don't you cooperate with us to stop the illegal immigration, and have your folks work through a legal system for best workers that we would like to establish in this country.

>> Michael Grant:
Well, why? Why won't that -- why aren't they responsive to that?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
I don't know whether first of all we've really taken that case to them at the diplomatic levels where it would be necessary to make it work. There is a certain amount of corruption in the Mexican government, and that may have something to do with it. I certainly don't attribute that to the top levels with Vicente Fox and so on, but I really don't understand why they wouldn't be more willing to help us put into place a legal framework to take the place of this illegal framework which harms a lot of Mexicans, not only with substandard wages and working conditions up here, but also all of those poor people who try to go across the desert in the summer time and find that they can't make it and many of them end up dying.

>> Michael Grant:
Are we going to see any progress on that issue in Congress this year or next year?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
I think so. All of us have a different idea about how to solve the problem, but there is a consensus that it has got to be addressed this year. I believe the senate will vote on bills later on this year. I don't know whether we'll get a consensus on anything that can pass both the senate and the house, but I think there is a fairly good shot at it, and at least I'm going to try and I know many others are too.

>> Michael Grant:
Let me shift to the war and the peace for that matter in Iraq. Unfortunately, the terrorism, the violence, the bombings continue over there. On the other hand, after the elections earlier this year, they do seem to be making progress in terms of trying to put a government together, a free, Democratic government. What's your take on where we are right now? And for that matter, when, if at all, we can possibly get out?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
Well, the government is formed. It took a while, but after all, compared to the United States when we converted after the revolution, it took us about 13 years to put a government together. And it's very difficult circumstances over there with insurgents constantly attacking anybody that cooperates with the government. They've got it done and it appears to be done right now. Attacks are up, although we just caught another really bad guy over there. If he talks, we'll be able to round up some more. So there are a lot of good news stories, but every day, there are attacks. As to the question about when we'll be able to come back, the answer is when the Iraqis believe they have adequate control over their own country with their own forces that they don't need our presence there anymore, it'll be time for us to leave. Clearly that time is not yet, but we are much more effectively now training the Iraqi police and military, and that's one of the really good news stories at the moment. There is still no lack of recruits, even though they are being targeted and attacked and in many cases wounded and in some cases killed, they are still volunteering and that's a very, very good sign.

>> Michael Grant:
Social Security reform. The president going back out on the stump trying to inspire on that subject. A lot of indication that he is not getting to the general populace. Do you see it differently?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
It depends on which polls you read. If you take the first question, is there a problem, remember his opponents denied that there was a problem. He talks about the retirement accounts as one of the solutions. They say that's a nonstarter. He came up with a different approach being propounded by a Democrat economics professor, I think. No, they don't like that idea either. I think the president is right to say, look, every time I come up with an idea you say no. Put something on the table, let's talk about it.

>> Michael Grant:
Come up with an idea?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
Yeah. I think at the end of the day, we'll be voting on something, and if we have help from the Democratic minority in putting it together, it'll have a good chance of passing. If they don't want to put any ideas on the table and it's our own plan, we probably can't pass it because it would take 06 votes, but we're going to give it a try.

>> Michael Grant:
Senator isn't one of the problems here that Social Security is the third rail in politics. President Bush has the luxury of being a second term president, but isn't one of the problems that there is an awful lot of politicians? You are running next year, who still view this as the third rail of American politics?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
I really don't. I think the American people can distinguish between a purely political employ and a problem that needs to be addressed. The fact that the president is subject to a lot of criticism in raising it ought to prove that he is not doing this for political purposes. We've got a problem, and adults, serious leaders, try to deal with those problems. Now, if the other side wants to play politics with it and say we don't like any of your ideas, you're wrong, no, no, no, that may be good politics in the short run, but I'm not sure it's good politics in the long run. I think people respect leaders who are willing to tackle the tough problems and try to come up with solutions. And with these really difficult problems, they take, sometimes, a lot of time. Remember welfare reform took a long time. Ronald Reagan was talking about it. It got done --

>> Michael Grant:
under Bill Clinton.

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
Not in spite of, he vetoed it twice but he was talked into signing it. It took a long time. It could be that Social Security is the same way. The politics of it now, if I were an opponent, I would stop thinking this is a juicy political way to hurt the president and his supporters and stop to think about maybe in the long run it's going to hurt them because they'll be seen as obstructionists and people that don't have any ideas.

>> Michael Grant:
Let me cycle back to eye U.S. senate piece of rules business. Are you in favor of changing the rules on filibusters on judicial appointments?

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
I'm in favor of restoring the 200-plus year tradition of an up or down vote on all judicial nominees. Never in the history of the senate, never, until two years ago, was a nominee to the bench that had majority support denied confirmation by a filibuster. Never happened. Two years ago the minorities started doing that and they did it to 16 of the president's circuit court nominees as a result of which President Bush has the lowest percentage of circuit court nominees confirmed of any president in modern history. We need to go back to that tradition of 200-plus years and get the up or down votes that these people deserve. If senators don't like the candidates, if they think they are disqualified or for some reason they shouldn't be sitting, they can vote no, but give them an up or down vote. That's what they deserve.

>> Michael Grant
: If you change the rules on that subject, though, do you run the risk of unbalancing the great debating society that is the United States senate?

>>Senator Jon Kyl:
No, senators will never give up their right to filibuster legislation. Legislation is within the body. We are a legislative body. We produce bills. We debate them, we change them. And a filibuster is effective to put pressure on one side to modify it. That's frequently used. Senators will never give that up. But when the president nominates a judge to sit on a court, you've got the other two branches of government involved, and the constitution there gives the senate a very explicit direction, advice and consent. The president gets to nominate and you vote on that person. In the past, we voted up or down. We defeated some and approved most. You can't modify the legislation like we do in the filibuster. That judge is approved or not approved. The filibuster is inappropriate. As I said, up until two years ago, it had never been used to defeat a candidate that has majority support. And most of these nominees of the president do have majority support.

>> Michael Grant:
Arizona Senator Jon Kyl we appreciate the time as always.

>> Senator Jon Kyl:
Thank you, Michael Grant.

>> Michael Grant:
For some young scientists, it could be the origin of a career. The Intel International Science and Engineering Fair is the world's largest pre-college science fair. The host committee, made up of leaders from organizations around the valley, lobbied four years ago for the fair to be hosted in Phoenix. This year, they got their wish. Event supporters, participants and volunteers will bring an estimated $8 to $10 million to Arizona. Producer Merry Lucero and videographer Scot Olson show us how some are preparing for the science competition.

>> Diana Eheart:
The project I did is based on ecstasy abuse and the neurotoxicity of the cell and the cell death that occurs after ecstasy and looking at a treatment to try to bring those cells back or rescue those cells, the depletion as well as the behavioral side effects of ecstasy.

>> Andrew Gamalski:
Basically what we are trying to do is use math to minimize waste in a factory setting, so we're going to try to put a job coming into a factory, you could say chips, going into a semiconductor plant, we're attempting to put them in the best order so that waste is minimized and profits are maximized for the company.

>> Reya Das:
I'm conducting various color fastness tests which would be the consumer side to see which cloth and dye combination would be the best in the fact that the dye would stay on the cloth, and I am doing various environmental tests to see the impact it has on the environment to see if it will be detrimental.

>> Merry Lucero:
You might think these young scientists are seasoned researchers, well into their careers. In reality, they are honors science students at Hamilton high school in Chandler. They are preparing projects for the Intel International Science and Engineering Fair or ISEF.

>> Theresa Clark:
Some of them really have their paths laid out. Some students know they are going to be in engineering. Others know they are going to be in political science, so they have their paths laid out, but there are others that just like this topic, and they just want to investigate it, and they just want to do a project.

>> Merry Lucero:
Students are required to spend a minimum of three hours a week outside of class on their projects. Most of them spend much more.

>> Theresa Clark:
Most of them spend hundreds of hours of time outside of the class, so it's something that they're intrinsically motivated about, and so they don't mind spending the extra time on them.

>> Merry Lucero:
While they will compete for tuition grants, internships, scientific field trips and the grand prize, a $50,000 college scholarship, these students enter ISEF for reasons other than money.

>> Andrew Gamalski:
Of course, the most important thing is being able to work in a laboratory and get this work published. That is really what research is all about, because I intend to go into research in the future and that should give me the vital experience necessary to go about my career because I ultimately want to become a professor some day.

>> Diana Eheart:
I've been able to adjust my project so that I'm able to compete with this particular project and just presenting is going to be really exciting. I really don't care if I win, but just making it that far to be able to present is really exciting for me.

>> Merry Lucero:
These students have won high school and regional competitions to qualify for ISEF. Reya Das, had to scrap her first project and start all over again.

>> Reya Das:
I had a research binder this thick. I had it filled with all my data -- not all my data -- all my information, background, research, and I switched projects. I've got another three-inch binder filled with stuff about dyes this time.

>> Merry Lucero:
So being selected for ISEF was a great surprise?

>> Reya Das:
Because I had to change my entire project. There was a problem with getting the materials on time, and so it was a project in which I had spent hours upon hours upon hours, especially as we got closer, and so I wasn't at all expecting to go to ISEF. So it was the cherry on top.

>> Merry Lucero:
1400 students from 40 nations entered ISEF. 26 Arizona students will compete in the fair.

>> Theresa Clark:
Students are excited here because they know we have four projects going, so now they are more interested in what it is all about, so if nothing else, it's generated a huge interest in science.

>> Merry Lucero:
ISEF encourages more participation in science fairs and fosters young scientists. The fair benefits students around the world, and this year, especially in Arizona.

>> Michael Grant:
Here to talk more about the Intel ISEF is executive director of the host committee, Liz Larsen.

>> Michael Grant:
I'm smiling, Liz, because I sort of dimly recall my science project, I guess back 6th grade or something. Really wasn't that complicated. These kids are very bright and they are getting into some very, very complicated, difficult subjects.

>> Liz Larsen:
Absolutely. I've talked about the fair for years now and the first thing I say to a lot of folks is these aren't volcanoes, the old volcano joke and science fairs. Most of these kids, a lot of these kids work with research intensive universities on their research. 20\% of the finalists come in either having filed a patent or with a patent already, so it's really cutting edge science. These are the scientists of the future.

>> Michael Grant:
Age range, I think you told me 12 to 19?

>> Liz Larsen:
12-19; correct.

>> Michael Grant:
And we mentioned also 26 Arizona students competing at the fair. One of the finalists is working with TGEN on cancer research?

>> Liz Larsen:
We are very proud to have 26 Arizona students this year at the fair. We have one student working with researchers at TGEN. We have one student who just received a Flynn scholarship, so, again, very bright, very talented young adults.

>> Michael Grant:
Let me hit the rewind button here and back up to the start. Who makes up the host committee?

>> Liz Larsen:
We have a host committee of about 70 individuals, movers and shakers in Arizona. I think it's important to note that this is an all volunteer effort. These people have put in a tremendous amount of time and energy and in many cases, many to make this fair happen.

>> Michael Grant:
You lobbied, you being the host committee, lobbied for the fair about four years ago. Why?

>> Liz Larsen:
A couple of reasons. We wanted to use the fair as a springboard to really improve science education in the State of Arizona to, build relationships between the universities, the schools, and local corporations. It's also -- it's a very prestigious event. It's like hosting the Super Bowl. So it's a good opportunity for us to bring some of these best and brightest scientists into Arizona and show what a great place Arizona is. We hope these -- some of these students will go to one of our three universities. We hope they'll come back and become part of our high-tech work force here in Arizona.

>> Michael Grant:
The event itself is at the Civic Plaza?

>> Liz Larsen:
Civic Plaza.

>> Michael Grant:
You take command of it for about a week?

>> Liz Larsen:
Absolutely. We have the entire Civic Plaza for an entire week and we're using every inch of it. It's a huge undertaking.

>> Michael Grant:
And it's a tremendous amount of square feet but I suppose with 1400 participants, is the process that they set up in stages and you have judging in stages and there is sort of a turnover process to go through that many?

>> Liz Larsen:
The students start coming into the fair on Sunday, and they go through a process of setup and approval between Sunday and Tuesday. On Wednesday, we have a thousand individuals who have volunteered their entire day, many of these folks are PhDs to judge these students, and it's a wonderful opportunity to -- for them to see some of the latest science, and then on Thursday and Friday -- Thursday, we have the educational outreach day where Arizona students come through the fair, and we have about 30 interactive displays in our discovery room from local corporations and institutions, so it will be fun for the public as well on Thursday.

>> Michael Grant:
Estimated local economic benefit $8-$10 million. How does that work?

>> Liz Larsen:
We're bringing in 6500 people from 40 different countries to Phoenix. They are going to be staying in Phoenix. They are going to be eating in Phoenix. We are running tours to probably 30 different locations, including the Grand Canyon, Karchner caverns, Sonoran desert museum. So it has a tremendous economic impact.

>> Michael Grant:
Curious, 1400 participants. What's the male/female mix?

>> Michael Grant:
It's about 50-50.

>> Michael Grant:
Obviously the emphasis -- I don't know what even blank to fill in here, 15, 20 years or so, has been to try to get more girls interested in math and science. That would seem to indicate that maybe we're being more successful in that endeavor than we thought?

>> Liz Larsen:
Absolutely. I've met some wonderful women in the last two fairs that I've been to, but, yeah, I think we've done a good job on that front.

>> Michael Grant:
Also a component here is to reach out to middle schools, 6th, 7th, 8th graders with ISEF?

>> Liz Larsen:
Right, part of the host committee's mandate was to try to really impact science education in Arizona. We decided the most effective way to do that was really to reach out to the 6th, 7th and 8th grade and get them excited and show them what they can do.

>> Michael Grant:
You know, we're almost out of time, and Liz I promised you -- some interpreters are needed?

>> Liz Larsen:
Right, we have -- this fair, as I mentioned, it's a wonderful community activity. We have a thousand volunteers and we have about 200 interpreters. We need interpreters in 20 different languages. That's one need we still have. We need Mandarin interpreters, Russian and Spanish.

>> Michael Grant:
Liz Larsen, thank you for joining us and talk about it. Best of luck with it. Incidentally, there is a link to the Intel ISEF web site on our web site. You can see transcripts of "Horizon" and you can find out about upcoming topics. Go to the web site, it's www.azpbs.org.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Our state lawmakers playing a game of chicken with the Governor over the budget? Lawmakers are working on a state budget that ties in the Governor's request for all-day kindergarten funding with funding for vouchers, a move that's almost certain to draw a second veto from the government. We'll talk to the Governor about that and more Thursday at 7:00 on "Horizon."

>> Michael Grant:
If you would like to ask the Governor a question, send it via E-mail to horizon@asu.edu. Thank you for joining us on this Wednesday edition of "Horizon." I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one, good night.

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