Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

April 11, 2005


Host: Michael Grant

Arizona Stories: Desert Caballeros Museum


  • A visit to Wickenburg's Desert Caballeros Museum.
Guests:
  • Paul Gigot - editor, Wall Street Journal
  • Kathy Boyle - Chief Operating Officer, Arizona Pharmacy Alliance
  • Tom O'Halleran - Representative


View Transcript

>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," in an effort to fight meth production, the legislature wants to restrict a common cold product. A talk with the conservative editor of the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page, Paul Gigot, and a visit to Wickenburg's Desert Caballeros Museum, tonight on Arizona stories.

>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to Horizon. A bill in Oklahoma regulating the sales of pseudoephedrine is credited with reducing the seizures of methamphetamine labs by 80\%. In Arizona, House Bill 2639 is designed to do just that. Opponents managed to slow the legislation, but a week ago, using a "strike all amendment," the bill's sponsor pushed the legislation through the Natural Resources and Agriculture Committee. Mike Sauceda gives us a look at what the bill would do.

>>Mike Sauceda:
If you have a stuffy nose, buying pseudoephedrine for relief is a fairly simple process. You can buy it over the counter, but because pseudoephedrines has been used to make methamphetamine, a bill has been introduced to make it harder to buy the drug. House Bill 2639 would require pseudoephedrine to be sold only by a pharmacist or pharmacist technician. Those buying it could purchase only nine grams or less, within a 30-day period. You would have to present a photo ID and have to sign a log. Pharmacists or pharmacist assistants who violated those laws could be fined and could face criminal charges after 6 violations. The measure does not affect the gel, capsule or liquid forms of pseudoephedrine. The bill would also set up a methamphetamine use prevention program. John Musil owns 11 apothecary shops in Arizona.

>> John Musil:
I am for the reduction of methamphetamine use in this state. Absolutely. Do I feel this bill is the correct measure? I think it has some great tenets, however, I think there needs to be more on the avoidance side. If there is a meth -- if I'm a meth cook and I know I'm going to serve 85\% of my sentence, first strike and I'm out, I'm going to think twice about doing it. If somebody were coming into the pharmacy, they potentially may see it on the counter or asked the pharmacist for Sudafed.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Musil says pharmacists don't sell huge quantities of any drug. He says that many of the large quantities of sales were happening at convenience stores.

>> John Musil:
Our responsibility is to our patients. By selling large quantities of any substance, aspirin, Tylenol, or pseudoephedrine, it's not in our patient's best interests to be purchasing such large quantities. So from a professional ethics standpoint, we would frown upon that type of sale.

>> Mike Sauceda:
If the bill passes, Musil says it would be tougher to get a nasal decongestant because it would require a pharmacist to be on hand.

>> John Musil:
Extremely inconvenient for someone to get pseudoephedrine if this bill passes. The main reason for that, if you look in rural communities where access to healthcare is limited at best, the pharmacist is the most approachable healthcare provider in the industry. Patients can go and ask questions, seek treatment for short periods of time for an ailment, and then be referred to a physician if that ailment continues to progress. By limiting the pseudoephedrine sale, people that had a cold that could be easily treated with a short course of pseudoephedrine would have limited access to at that point.

>> Mike Sauceda:
In Oklahoma, a similar bill is credited with reducing the number of meth labs busted there by 80\%.

>> John Musil:
I'd have to see the data regarding that. Is it -- the law enforcement was the same, the same number of police patrolling? Was the DEA as actively involved as they were a year ago? I think there are a lot of factors that need to be looked at.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Musil says other things the bill does not address is the supply of meth from Mexico and pseudoephedrine internet sales.

>> Michael Grant:
A couple of months ago, Kathy Boyle, she's the chief operating officer of the Arizona Pharmacy Alliance, appeared on "Horizon" with the bill's sponsor, Representative Tom O'Halleran. What follows are excerpts from that show, in which Boyle explains the Alliance's opposition to the bill.

>> Kathy Boyle:
First of all, pharmacists do realize there is a problem. We do want to provide solutions to that problem and want to help law enforcement crack down on the meth labs occurring in our state. But with all due respect to Representative O'Halleran, this bill goes to the extreme measure to where we think it will inconvenience the consumer to the degree that once again you have a legitimate product that the consumer can use that they have an been able to purchase, obviously certain purchases they can make and certain quantities they can, and unfortunately, there are folks out there that take this legitimate product and make it an illegitimate product. Pharmacists are very concerned about that for the consumer access, but also what it will do to their own practice, because there is only so much shelf space behind a pharmacy counter. And we know with the hundreds of products that are manufactured now with pseudoephedrine, whether it be the single ingredient or combination products, you could see some reduction in the amount of product available to the consumer. Pharmacies will only carry so many products. They can't carry everything they currently have in their inventory now. So we think obviously it does pose a problem for the pharmacists and time factors, et cetera, that's why the pharmacist community is extremely concerned about this bill. We already know that most of these meth cooks use fake IDs. Part of the bill is that the pharmacist will have to write down the person's name, address and have them sign it and keep this log book for law enforcement to come in at their leisure to check to see who is purchasing these products. Well, for us, if they are not using real IDs, you already have a list of a fake IDs. What does that tell law enforcement? For pharmacists to step into a law enforcement activity, they are not trained to do that, and to keep this log book is onerous for the pharmacist as well, I can tell consumers right now if this goes into effect, you can expect longer lines at your pharmacy to wait for your pharmacist or technician to make the transaction.

>> Michael Grant:
Joining us now to promote the potential law is Arizona's Attorney General, Terry Goddard who was shaking his head repeatedly as we ran some of that tape. Terry, it's good to see you again.

>> Terry Goddard:
Thank you, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Let's start with the fake ID point. What effectively was being said there is what good does it do because these people are using fake IDs.

>> Terry Goddard:
What an amazing ruse to hear from the industry. They are speaking out for the folks who make drugs, the pharmaceutical companies, and those who are selling huge numbers of over-the-counter tablet forms of pseudoephedrine, which can be turned into methamphetamines, highly toxic, incredibly addictive drug. Most recent thing they have used to attack the bill that Representative O'Halleran has been repeatedly proposing, this is his third try in this session, is that somehow it will lead to identity theft. How much of your information does your pharmacist have right now? We literally have made a list of all of the things, personal information about each individual customer that a pharmacist keeps if they do any prescriptions at all for that individual. It's extraordinary. So the pharmacists have the information. The bill has been slightly tweaked to show that it's not a list that somebody would sign, it could be a card, it could even eventually be an electronic submission, but the important thing here, the critical thing to remember, is that in Oklahoma, as you mentioned in the open, 80\% reduction in meth labs. What part of 80\% don't they understand? This is a way to stop or to almost totally stop the manufacturer of methamphetamines in homes and motor homes and even cars all across the State of Arizona.

>> Michael Grant:
But Terry, if the bad guys are using fake IDs, is there any merit at all to that point?

>> Terry Goddard:
No, there may be a few that slip through with fake IDs, but identity thieves and there certainly are a lot of those among the meth using population, they are using credit cards to steal money. They are not going out face to face and saying here is my photo ID, look, it's me. That's a whole different kind of fakery. In fact, the same number of identity thieves exist in Arizona as in Oklahoma, in the same proportions. If they were easy to come buy, Oklahoma would not have had the incredible reduction that they got.

>> Michael Grant:
What about the argument that most of these sales occur at convenience stores, ban the sale at convenience stores, which I believe this bill would do --

>> Terry Goddard:
Yes.

>> Michael Grant:
-- and don't worry about the pharmacies because you have corralled a significant portion of the problem simply by getting them out of Circle Ks or 7-Elevens or whatever the case may be.

>> Terry Goddard:
Let me focus on the really absurd argument that it's an inconvenience to pharmacists. Sure, pharmacists may have to do a bit more, but they do an awful lot of record-keeping now. We have a lot of pharmacists that don't share that opinion. I have a letter from one who has been in business for 30 years. He says this is a small price to pay for cutting back on the methamphetamine problem. But the real canard out here is saying that consumers will be disadvantaged. The only thing this bill focuses on is the tablet form of pseudoephedrine. That's the critical ingredient for making methamphetamine. Only the tablet form is targeted by this bill. All other kinds, the cold medicine, the gel caps, liquid forms and the new forms that are -- Sudafed PE. It sounds like it has ephedrine in it but it doesn't. It's a new product that has no meth producing ingredients. Those will be available if this bill passes, no problems for consumers. They have exactly the same diagnostic or medicine effect. There is no medical reason why somebody should have a tablet as opposed to a gel cap, as opposed to liquid form. All of this business about consumers having a late-night emergency where they suddenly have kids with a cold and they must have their pseudoephedrine tablet is ridiculous. They can find any time 24 hours a day throughout the State of Arizona, some form of pseudoephedrine to solve their problem.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, as you know, sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good.

>> Terry Goddard:
True.

>> Michael Grant:
Would it be possible -- I understand that probably having the pharmacist do it is the best way to go, but could you have just regular store personnel keep the log, make sure that the sales were restricted, those kinds of things in an attempt to get past some of these objections but still get to a large portion of a good idea?

>> Terry Goddard:
You could, and I don't think it would work. Pharmacists are trained in the dispensing of various types of medication. This bill would make the pseudoephedrine tablets a class 5, which means it would have to be distributed by a pharmacist. I think that's the appropriate step. These are dangerous. What you turn these tablets into is one of the most lethal drugs out there on the market today. We've got to stop the production of meth. This is the most effective way to do it.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry Goddard, our attorney general, thank you for the input.

>> Terry Goddard:
Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Pulitzer prize winning editorialist Paul Gigot is the editor for the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page. A staunch conservative, his diplomatic manner has made him a sought-after pundit on many television news programs, including the news hour here on PBS. A guest of the Goldwater Institute recently, he spoke on a number of issues. Larry Lemmons caught up with him at the Biltmore.

>>Larry Lemmons:
You wrote before President Bush's inauguration that this is the Republican moment. What did you mean by that? And what do you think we can expect in the president's second term?

>> Paul Gigot:
You're talking about a Republican political moment where they have the White House and enhanced majorities in the Senate and House after an election. That's the first time that's happened since 1928. So it's a big opportunity for them. On the other hand, it's a big test to demonstrate if they can govern now as a majority in a way that's philosophically coherent and that accomplishes some of the goals that they promised to accomplish in the campaign. I think it's a big test and voters who voted for them are going to be looking to see whether they can do it.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Traditional conservative values include a balanced budget and much more limited government. During this administration, however, we've seen the opposite of that. We have a budget deficit and much larger government, because of homeland security, September 11th and all of that, but also because of the Medicare prescription drug plan. What are your thoughts on that?

>> Paul Gigot:
Well, I think Republicans have -- some of them -- have decided that they rather like being in Washington and the perquisites of incumbency, one of which is spending, which they rather like so they have become converts to big porky highway bills and taxing some people to deliver benefits to others, which is what the prescription drug benefit is all about. It was much larger than it needed to be, much richer than it needed to be to address those relatively few seniors who needed help with prescription drug coverage. A lot of people get coverage from their companies. They didn't need to be subsidized too. So I think Republicans need to have kind of a philosophical self-assessment here, and begin to control their spending habits. I think the tax cuts were very useful in helping to revive the economy, especially the ones in 2003, so I wouldn't raise taxes, but I think they need to get their spending habits under control.

>>Larry Lemmons:
So what would you cut?

>> Paul Gigot:
If you're asking me, I'd revisit the Medicare prescription drug benefit. I'd means test it and make sure that it went for seniors that really needed it. I would take the highway bill and cut it way down, not pass a big one. I would look at everything in the federal budget and say what do we need to spend, what do we not need to spend. Homeland security has become a catch-all to justify a lot of spending that wouldn't otherwise happen, and with all due respect to North Dakota, they are probably not under the same terrorist threat as New York City or LA, so they don't need the same amount of money. Public -- homeland security spending has been used as a slogan to justify everything from farm subsidies for a new fire truck for fire departments across the country.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Our own Senator John McCain and Representative Jeff Flake have been against the pork piled onto these budget plans. What can be done to help put an end to that?

>> Paul Gigot:
There are two things that can be done. One is the president has to pay attention. He has a veto pen. He can I, you know what, that's got to go. He can use his leverage and negotiating power to get some of it out. That's one thing. He has done that a little bit on the highway bill. They wanted to pass $380 billion. He's got them down to $284 in the House. The other thing is Congress itself should change the rules of its budget process, so that the budget that they pass in the beginning of the year is the target spending they have to meet at the end of the year. Right now they don't. It doesn't have the force of law. It's just an advisory, and what happens is they do with great fanfare, say we're only raising spending by 2\%. At the end of the year they say with muffled voices, oh sorry, that's 4\% or 5\%. They need to put their own enforcement mechanisms in place, and I think Jeff Flake and Senator John McCain and others have tried to do that. Republicans to be consistent with their principles should try to do that.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Recently the president came to Tucson to promote his Social Security plan. At the moment, he's having a difficult time selling Social Security. Do you think if there hadn't been the scandal at Enron, the investment houses, mutual funds, that there might not be so much of a resistance against privatizing Social Security, if privatization is the word to use.

>> Paul Gigot:
I don't think privatize is the perfect word because it's not your money in the sense, you can't take it out and spend it. It's still a forced savings plan. Well, I think the president has accomplished something already in that he's won the debate over whether there is a problem. All of the polls show that the public realizes that there is a financing shortfall. It is inevitable. It may not happen next year or the year after that, but it's coming, and it's going to require huge benefit cuts or huge tax increase to finance it. I think he's winning that argument. The argument over solutions he hasn't won yet. He is introducing concepts to the American public that take a while to sink in and that are hard to get congress to commit to, because he has to ask them to do the unnatural act of looking beyond the next election. If they do nothing about Social Security this year, no voter will notice, right? Because they won't be affected in a personal way. But he's asking them to think ahead, think about the long term, think about younger people. It's a responsible thing to do, but it's also a difficult thing to accomplish. I think when it comes to the Enron and these other scandals, they haven't helped the cause, certainly, but everybody understands that there is always risk in the market. It would be a mistake, I think, and nobody is proposing letting individuals play the penny stock market in Denver, or put all of their eggs in one basket. You have -- retirement needs to be considered across a continuum. You've got your 401(k), you have your personal IRA savings, if you have them. What I like about this plan, is that a lot of people at lower income levels don't have the opportunity to build wealth because they are living paycheck to paycheck, and that 15\%, 12.4\% payroll tax goes out of their pocket and the government takes it and spends it on seniors. They take - current workers and spend it on retirees. If an individual, a young person can tap into the power of compound interest over time and build up a nest egg. Daniel Patrick Moynahan, the former New York Senator, I used to talk to him a lot about this and I asked him why are you in favor of this and he said two words, wealth and equality. This is a chance to address the inequality in the ability to build wealth. If you are a relatively well off person, you make $100,000 a year, you can put away some, because you have -- in a retirement account. You can use the benefit of tax subsidized IRAs. You can't do that if you are making $25,000.

>> Michael Grant:
The search for gold has played a prominent role in the history of Arizona. In fact, Wickenburg was founded after the discovery of a gold mine. And because it's one of the oldest Arizona towns, Wickenburg is rich in history. You can see much of that history in the Desert Caballeros Western Museum. Producer Mike Sauceda and videographer Scot Olson give us a video tour.

>> Royce Kardinal:
We're in the museum of the people. Museums in some areas have a bad rap that they only cater to the elite or wealthy crowd. This museum is for the people to get a basic understanding.

>> Mike Sauceda:
It's a big museum in a little town, formed in 1963, born out of a license plate collection, appropriate for a town built at the crossroads of several highways.

>> Royce Kardinal:
It was a dream of our former -- well, he was actually practicing school superintendent at the time, H.K. Mack McClennan. It was his dream. He started out with a small collection of rusty old license plates.

>> Mike Sauceda:
The name came from an early group of patrons.

>> Royce Kardinal:
One of the groups that was very active in the early formation of this was the Desert Caballeros riding group started in the late '40s. These people who came from throughout the country to enjoy a wild and wooly week in the west were some of the first people that were actually nudged for a contribution to get the museum started.

>> Hobert Mead:
Welcome to the Brayton commercial store. It's one of the bright spots of the town, because you came here to get whatever you needed.

>> Mike Sauceda:
The museum was originally located in the Brayton commercial building, a general store that existed until the '50s in Wickenburg, now recreated --. Hobert Mead spends his day in front of the general store recreation, just as old men with beards did when the store existed.

>> Hobert Mead:
When I hear them, I just sit like that, and I've had them come down and pinch my arm to see if I'm real and I've had them stand next to me and tell their spouse, okay, take my picture and stuff like that. It's a couple from Columbia, Missouri, and he stopped on the fourth step there and she walked over right up here about 15 inches away, and I winked at her, and she screamed and they heard her upstairs, and she landed behind her husband on step four.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Hobert is one of the many volunteers who keep the museum going.

>> Royce Kardinal:
This museum is long on expectations, long an excellence and short on staff and paid people to work. Our volunteers have proven to be very astute in helping to tell our story.

>> Rea Ludke:
Visitors come into our western gallery and see all types of western art, like this contemporary piece by Gary Smith, and then we have a lot of older pieces.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Rea Ludke is one of the other volunteers. Her specialty is in the Western art exhibit, which represents one of the two main functions of the Desert Caballeros Western Museum.

>> Rea Ludke:
It is a combination of history, certainly, but it also -- we now are presently standing in a wonderful art museum that has some of the finest western art around -- certainly in this state and in many other states. It's a gem of a collection.

>> Mike Sauceda:
You can take in western art from the 1800's by artist George Campton to contemporary western art and sculpture. Mining was the reason for the founding of Wickenburg reflected in this gem and mineral display. As a history museum, Desert Caballeros has a rich vein to mine.

>> Royce Kardinal:
Wickenburg is one of the oldest communities in Arizona, second only to Tucson, founded by the early Spaniard movement that came through.

>> Mike Sauceda:
That history is brought to life by dioramas and a full-size territorial town exhibit.

>> Royce Kardinal:
Some of our first exhibits that started in the museum were dioramas. They are still here today. They are part of the museum from pretty much the very beginning, keeping along with the history area of our museum, we have period rooms, which were designed to portray what life was like just about the turn of the century. That would be the turn of the last -- two centuries ago, and those are as authentic as we possibly could make them. We have a great exhibit in our downstairs area known as the street scene, which sort of tells the story of what Wickenburg looked like just as we came into the 20th century.

>> Mike Sauceda:
About 33,000 visitors a year stop at the Desert Caballeros Western Museum. They learn about the history of Wickenburg, and see western memorabilia, like guns, chaps, spurs, whips and other items that cowboys used when herding cattle, and the home life of those cowboys can be seen in life-size displays of life in a ranch house. There are changing exhibits, like this Navajo blanket display.

>> Royce Kardinal:
The beautiful Navajo weavings. As they were created, most of the ones we're seeing in the exhibition today are our products of the late 1800s. I think it's amazing to look at the colors that were so vividly used and the patterns used in these weavings. It's hard to imagine that they were being done in that era.

>> Mike Sauceda:
A fire destroyed the original building in 1972, but the volunteer spirit that helped build and run the museum kicked in again.

>> Royce Kardinal:
It was two years later on December 21st, the anniversary of the fire, that we opened this facility that we currently have. That was done by raising about $250,000, which in 1974 was a pretty good chunk of money, and very hard to come by in those days.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Museums like the Desert Caballeros Western Museum provide a glimpse into the past. Kardinal says as the museum looks into its own future, it will call on that western spirit again that built it in the first place.

>> Royce Kardinal:
There is an exciting future. There is no limit.

>> Michael Grant:
Every Monday on "Horizon," we feature a new Arizona story. Next Monday we look at the rich history and visual beauty of the Arizona Biltmore resort and spa.

>> Paul Atkinson:
A tax cut for businesses? Unlike homeowners who pay 10\% of assessed property value, commercial property is taxed at 25\%. Lawmakers and the Governor are poised to reduce that amount. Plus, why lowering cable TV fees would mean less money for cities, Tuesday at 7:00 on "Horizon."

>> Michael Grant:
Wednesday, we'll tell you about a contentious development fight in Mesa over 250 acres of cotton fields. Thursday, we'll examine Arizona's housing market. It's growing at a blistering rate. Friday, join us for the Journalists' Roundtable. Thanks very much for being here on a Monday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one, good night.

HB2639 Meth Production


  • A bill in Oklahoma regulating the sales of pseudoephedrine is credited with reducing the seizures of methamphetamine labs by 80 percent. In Arizona, House Bill 2639 is designed to do just that. Opponents managed to slow the legislation, but a week ago, using a "strike all amendment," the bill's sponsor pushed the legislation through the Natural Resources and Agriculture Committee.
Guests:
  • Paul Gigot - editor, Wall Street Journal
  • Kathy Boyle - Chief Operating Officer, Arizona Pharmacy Alliance
  • Tom O'Halleran - Representative


View Transcript

>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," in an effort to fight meth production, the legislature wants to restrict a common cold product. A talk with the conservative editor of the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page, Paul Gigot, and a visit to Wickenburg's Desert Caballeros Museum, tonight on Arizona stories.

>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to Horizon. A bill in Oklahoma regulating the sales of pseudoephedrine is credited with reducing the seizures of methamphetamine labs by 80\%. In Arizona, House Bill 2639 is designed to do just that. Opponents managed to slow the legislation, but a week ago, using a "strike all amendment," the bill's sponsor pushed the legislation through the Natural Resources and Agriculture Committee. Mike Sauceda gives us a look at what the bill would do.

>>Mike Sauceda:
If you have a stuffy nose, buying pseudoephedrine for relief is a fairly simple process. You can buy it over the counter, but because pseudoephedrines has been used to make methamphetamine, a bill has been introduced to make it harder to buy the drug. House Bill 2639 would require pseudoephedrine to be sold only by a pharmacist or pharmacist technician. Those buying it could purchase only nine grams or less, within a 30-day period. You would have to present a photo ID and have to sign a log. Pharmacists or pharmacist assistants who violated those laws could be fined and could face criminal charges after 6 violations. The measure does not affect the gel, capsule or liquid forms of pseudoephedrine. The bill would also set up a methamphetamine use prevention program. John Musil owns 11 apothecary shops in Arizona.

>> John Musil:
I am for the reduction of methamphetamine use in this state. Absolutely. Do I feel this bill is the correct measure? I think it has some great tenets, however, I think there needs to be more on the avoidance side. If there is a meth -- if I'm a meth cook and I know I'm going to serve 85\% of my sentence, first strike and I'm out, I'm going to think twice about doing it. If somebody were coming into the pharmacy, they potentially may see it on the counter or asked the pharmacist for Sudafed.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Musil says pharmacists don't sell huge quantities of any drug. He says that many of the large quantities of sales were happening at convenience stores.

>> John Musil:
Our responsibility is to our patients. By selling large quantities of any substance, aspirin, Tylenol, or pseudoephedrine, it's not in our patient's best interests to be purchasing such large quantities. So from a professional ethics standpoint, we would frown upon that type of sale.

>> Mike Sauceda:
If the bill passes, Musil says it would be tougher to get a nasal decongestant because it would require a pharmacist to be on hand.

>> John Musil:
Extremely inconvenient for someone to get pseudoephedrine if this bill passes. The main reason for that, if you look in rural communities where access to healthcare is limited at best, the pharmacist is the most approachable healthcare provider in the industry. Patients can go and ask questions, seek treatment for short periods of time for an ailment, and then be referred to a physician if that ailment continues to progress. By limiting the pseudoephedrine sale, people that had a cold that could be easily treated with a short course of pseudoephedrine would have limited access to at that point.

>> Mike Sauceda:
In Oklahoma, a similar bill is credited with reducing the number of meth labs busted there by 80\%.

>> John Musil:
I'd have to see the data regarding that. Is it -- the law enforcement was the same, the same number of police patrolling? Was the DEA as actively involved as they were a year ago? I think there are a lot of factors that need to be looked at.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Musil says other things the bill does not address is the supply of meth from Mexico and pseudoephedrine internet sales.

>> Michael Grant:
A couple of months ago, Kathy Boyle, she's the chief operating officer of the Arizona Pharmacy Alliance, appeared on "Horizon" with the bill's sponsor, Representative Tom O'Halleran. What follows are excerpts from that show, in which Boyle explains the Alliance's opposition to the bill.

>> Kathy Boyle:
First of all, pharmacists do realize there is a problem. We do want to provide solutions to that problem and want to help law enforcement crack down on the meth labs occurring in our state. But with all due respect to Representative O'Halleran, this bill goes to the extreme measure to where we think it will inconvenience the consumer to the degree that once again you have a legitimate product that the consumer can use that they have an been able to purchase, obviously certain purchases they can make and certain quantities they can, and unfortunately, there are folks out there that take this legitimate product and make it an illegitimate product. Pharmacists are very concerned about that for the consumer access, but also what it will do to their own practice, because there is only so much shelf space behind a pharmacy counter. And we know with the hundreds of products that are manufactured now with pseudoephedrine, whether it be the single ingredient or combination products, you could see some reduction in the amount of product available to the consumer. Pharmacies will only carry so many products. They can't carry everything they currently have in their inventory now. So we think obviously it does pose a problem for the pharmacists and time factors, et cetera, that's why the pharmacist community is extremely concerned about this bill. We already know that most of these meth cooks use fake IDs. Part of the bill is that the pharmacist will have to write down the person's name, address and have them sign it and keep this log book for law enforcement to come in at their leisure to check to see who is purchasing these products. Well, for us, if they are not using real IDs, you already have a list of a fake IDs. What does that tell law enforcement? For pharmacists to step into a law enforcement activity, they are not trained to do that, and to keep this log book is onerous for the pharmacist as well, I can tell consumers right now if this goes into effect, you can expect longer lines at your pharmacy to wait for your pharmacist or technician to make the transaction.

>> Michael Grant:
Joining us now to promote the potential law is Arizona's Attorney General, Terry Goddard who was shaking his head repeatedly as we ran some of that tape. Terry, it's good to see you again.

>> Terry Goddard:
Thank you, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Let's start with the fake ID point. What effectively was being said there is what good does it do because these people are using fake IDs.

>> Terry Goddard:
What an amazing ruse to hear from the industry. They are speaking out for the folks who make drugs, the pharmaceutical companies, and those who are selling huge numbers of over-the-counter tablet forms of pseudoephedrine, which can be turned into methamphetamines, highly toxic, incredibly addictive drug. Most recent thing they have used to attack the bill that Representative O'Halleran has been repeatedly proposing, this is his third try in this session, is that somehow it will lead to identity theft. How much of your information does your pharmacist have right now? We literally have made a list of all of the things, personal information about each individual customer that a pharmacist keeps if they do any prescriptions at all for that individual. It's extraordinary. So the pharmacists have the information. The bill has been slightly tweaked to show that it's not a list that somebody would sign, it could be a card, it could even eventually be an electronic submission, but the important thing here, the critical thing to remember, is that in Oklahoma, as you mentioned in the open, 80\% reduction in meth labs. What part of 80\% don't they understand? This is a way to stop or to almost totally stop the manufacturer of methamphetamines in homes and motor homes and even cars all across the State of Arizona.

>> Michael Grant:
But Terry, if the bad guys are using fake IDs, is there any merit at all to that point?

>> Terry Goddard:
No, there may be a few that slip through with fake IDs, but identity thieves and there certainly are a lot of those among the meth using population, they are using credit cards to steal money. They are not going out face to face and saying here is my photo ID, look, it's me. That's a whole different kind of fakery. In fact, the same number of identity thieves exist in Arizona as in Oklahoma, in the same proportions. If they were easy to come buy, Oklahoma would not have had the incredible reduction that they got.

>> Michael Grant:
What about the argument that most of these sales occur at convenience stores, ban the sale at convenience stores, which I believe this bill would do --

>> Terry Goddard:
Yes.

>> Michael Grant:
-- and don't worry about the pharmacies because you have corralled a significant portion of the problem simply by getting them out of Circle Ks or 7-Elevens or whatever the case may be.

>> Terry Goddard:
Let me focus on the really absurd argument that it's an inconvenience to pharmacists. Sure, pharmacists may have to do a bit more, but they do an awful lot of record-keeping now. We have a lot of pharmacists that don't share that opinion. I have a letter from one who has been in business for 30 years. He says this is a small price to pay for cutting back on the methamphetamine problem. But the real canard out here is saying that consumers will be disadvantaged. The only thing this bill focuses on is the tablet form of pseudoephedrine. That's the critical ingredient for making methamphetamine. Only the tablet form is targeted by this bill. All other kinds, the cold medicine, the gel caps, liquid forms and the new forms that are -- Sudafed PE. It sounds like it has ephedrine in it but it doesn't. It's a new product that has no meth producing ingredients. Those will be available if this bill passes, no problems for consumers. They have exactly the same diagnostic or medicine effect. There is no medical reason why somebody should have a tablet as opposed to a gel cap, as opposed to liquid form. All of this business about consumers having a late-night emergency where they suddenly have kids with a cold and they must have their pseudoephedrine tablet is ridiculous. They can find any time 24 hours a day throughout the State of Arizona, some form of pseudoephedrine to solve their problem.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, as you know, sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good.

>> Terry Goddard:
True.

>> Michael Grant:
Would it be possible -- I understand that probably having the pharmacist do it is the best way to go, but could you have just regular store personnel keep the log, make sure that the sales were restricted, those kinds of things in an attempt to get past some of these objections but still get to a large portion of a good idea?

>> Terry Goddard:
You could, and I don't think it would work. Pharmacists are trained in the dispensing of various types of medication. This bill would make the pseudoephedrine tablets a class 5, which means it would have to be distributed by a pharmacist. I think that's the appropriate step. These are dangerous. What you turn these tablets into is one of the most lethal drugs out there on the market today. We've got to stop the production of meth. This is the most effective way to do it.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry Goddard, our attorney general, thank you for the input.

>> Terry Goddard:
Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Pulitzer prize winning editorialist Paul Gigot is the editor for the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page. A staunch conservative, his diplomatic manner has made him a sought-after pundit on many television news programs, including the news hour here on PBS. A guest of the Goldwater Institute recently, he spoke on a number of issues. Larry Lemmons caught up with him at the Biltmore.

>>Larry Lemmons:
You wrote before President Bush's inauguration that this is the Republican moment. What did you mean by that? And what do you think we can expect in the president's second term?

>> Paul Gigot:
You're talking about a Republican political moment where they have the White House and enhanced majorities in the Senate and House after an election. That's the first time that's happened since 1928. So it's a big opportunity for them. On the other hand, it's a big test to demonstrate if they can govern now as a majority in a way that's philosophically coherent and that accomplishes some of the goals that they promised to accomplish in the campaign. I think it's a big test and voters who voted for them are going to be looking to see whether they can do it.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Traditional conservative values include a balanced budget and much more limited government. During this administration, however, we've seen the opposite of that. We have a budget deficit and much larger government, because of homeland security, September 11th and all of that, but also because of the Medicare prescription drug plan. What are your thoughts on that?

>> Paul Gigot:
Well, I think Republicans have -- some of them -- have decided that they rather like being in Washington and the perquisites of incumbency, one of which is spending, which they rather like so they have become converts to big porky highway bills and taxing some people to deliver benefits to others, which is what the prescription drug benefit is all about. It was much larger than it needed to be, much richer than it needed to be to address those relatively few seniors who needed help with prescription drug coverage. A lot of people get coverage from their companies. They didn't need to be subsidized too. So I think Republicans need to have kind of a philosophical self-assessment here, and begin to control their spending habits. I think the tax cuts were very useful in helping to revive the economy, especially the ones in 2003, so I wouldn't raise taxes, but I think they need to get their spending habits under control.

>>Larry Lemmons:
So what would you cut?

>> Paul Gigot:
If you're asking me, I'd revisit the Medicare prescription drug benefit. I'd means test it and make sure that it went for seniors that really needed it. I would take the highway bill and cut it way down, not pass a big one. I would look at everything in the federal budget and say what do we need to spend, what do we not need to spend. Homeland security has become a catch-all to justify a lot of spending that wouldn't otherwise happen, and with all due respect to North Dakota, they are probably not under the same terrorist threat as New York City or LA, so they don't need the same amount of money. Public -- homeland security spending has been used as a slogan to justify everything from farm subsidies for a new fire truck for fire departments across the country.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Our own Senator John McCain and Representative Jeff Flake have been against the pork piled onto these budget plans. What can be done to help put an end to that?

>> Paul Gigot:
There are two things that can be done. One is the president has to pay attention. He has a veto pen. He can I, you know what, that's got to go. He can use his leverage and negotiating power to get some of it out. That's one thing. He has done that a little bit on the highway bill. They wanted to pass $380 billion. He's got them down to $284 in the House. The other thing is Congress itself should change the rules of its budget process, so that the budget that they pass in the beginning of the year is the target spending they have to meet at the end of the year. Right now they don't. It doesn't have the force of law. It's just an advisory, and what happens is they do with great fanfare, say we're only raising spending by 2\%. At the end of the year they say with muffled voices, oh sorry, that's 4\% or 5\%. They need to put their own enforcement mechanisms in place, and I think Jeff Flake and Senator John McCain and others have tried to do that. Republicans to be consistent with their principles should try to do that.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Recently the president came to Tucson to promote his Social Security plan. At the moment, he's having a difficult time selling Social Security. Do you think if there hadn't been the scandal at Enron, the investment houses, mutual funds, that there might not be so much of a resistance against privatizing Social Security, if privatization is the word to use.

>> Paul Gigot:
I don't think privatize is the perfect word because it's not your money in the sense, you can't take it out and spend it. It's still a forced savings plan. Well, I think the president has accomplished something already in that he's won the debate over whether there is a problem. All of the polls show that the public realizes that there is a financing shortfall. It is inevitable. It may not happen next year or the year after that, but it's coming, and it's going to require huge benefit cuts or huge tax increase to finance it. I think he's winning that argument. The argument over solutions he hasn't won yet. He is introducing concepts to the American public that take a while to sink in and that are hard to get congress to commit to, because he has to ask them to do the unnatural act of looking beyond the next election. If they do nothing about Social Security this year, no voter will notice, right? Because they won't be affected in a personal way. But he's asking them to think ahead, think about the long term, think about younger people. It's a responsible thing to do, but it's also a difficult thing to accomplish. I think when it comes to the Enron and these other scandals, they haven't helped the cause, certainly, but everybody understands that there is always risk in the market. It would be a mistake, I think, and nobody is proposing letting individuals play the penny stock market in Denver, or put all of their eggs in one basket. You have -- retirement needs to be considered across a continuum. You've got your 401(k), you have your personal IRA savings, if you have them. What I like about this plan, is that a lot of people at lower income levels don't have the opportunity to build wealth because they are living paycheck to paycheck, and that 15\%, 12.4\% payroll tax goes out of their pocket and the government takes it and spends it on seniors. They take - current workers and spend it on retirees. If an individual, a young person can tap into the power of compound interest over time and build up a nest egg. Daniel Patrick Moynahan, the former New York Senator, I used to talk to him a lot about this and I asked him why are you in favor of this and he said two words, wealth and equality. This is a chance to address the inequality in the ability to build wealth. If you are a relatively well off person, you make $100,000 a year, you can put away some, because you have -- in a retirement account. You can use the benefit of tax subsidized IRAs. You can't do that if you are making $25,000.

>> Michael Grant:
The search for gold has played a prominent role in the history of Arizona. In fact, Wickenburg was founded after the discovery of a gold mine. And because it's one of the oldest Arizona towns, Wickenburg is rich in history. You can see much of that history in the Desert Caballeros Western Museum. Producer Mike Sauceda and videographer Scot Olson give us a video tour.

>> Royce Kardinal:
We're in the museum of the people. Museums in some areas have a bad rap that they only cater to the elite or wealthy crowd. This museum is for the people to get a basic understanding.

>> Mike Sauceda:
It's a big museum in a little town, formed in 1963, born out of a license plate collection, appropriate for a town built at the crossroads of several highways.

>> Royce Kardinal:
It was a dream of our former -- well, he was actually practicing school superintendent at the time, H.K. Mack McClennan. It was his dream. He started out with a small collection of rusty old license plates.

>> Mike Sauceda:
The name came from an early group of patrons.

>> Royce Kardinal:
One of the groups that was very active in the early formation of this was the Desert Caballeros riding group started in the late '40s. These people who came from throughout the country to enjoy a wild and wooly week in the west were some of the first people that were actually nudged for a contribution to get the museum started.

>> Hobert Mead:
Welcome to the Brayton commercial store. It's one of the bright spots of the town, because you came here to get whatever you needed.

>> Mike Sauceda:
The museum was originally located in the Brayton commercial building, a general store that existed until the '50s in Wickenburg, now recreated --. Hobert Mead spends his day in front of the general store recreation, just as old men with beards did when the store existed.

>> Hobert Mead:
When I hear them, I just sit like that, and I've had them come down and pinch my arm to see if I'm real and I've had them stand next to me and tell their spouse, okay, take my picture and stuff like that. It's a couple from Columbia, Missouri, and he stopped on the fourth step there and she walked over right up here about 15 inches away, and I winked at her, and she screamed and they heard her upstairs, and she landed behind her husband on step four.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Hobert is one of the many volunteers who keep the museum going.

>> Royce Kardinal:
This museum is long on expectations, long an excellence and short on staff and paid people to work. Our volunteers have proven to be very astute in helping to tell our story.

>> Rea Ludke:
Visitors come into our western gallery and see all types of western art, like this contemporary piece by Gary Smith, and then we have a lot of older pieces.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Rea Ludke is one of the other volunteers. Her specialty is in the Western art exhibit, which represents one of the two main functions of the Desert Caballeros Western Museum.

>> Rea Ludke:
It is a combination of history, certainly, but it also -- we now are presently standing in a wonderful art museum that has some of the finest western art around -- certainly in this state and in many other states. It's a gem of a collection.

>> Mike Sauceda:
You can take in western art from the 1800's by artist George Campton to contemporary western art and sculpture. Mining was the reason for the founding of Wickenburg reflected in this gem and mineral display. As a history museum, Desert Caballeros has a rich vein to mine.

>> Royce Kardinal:
Wickenburg is one of the oldest communities in Arizona, second only to Tucson, founded by the early Spaniard movement that came through.

>> Mike Sauceda:
That history is brought to life by dioramas and a full-size territorial town exhibit.

>> Royce Kardinal:
Some of our first exhibits that started in the museum were dioramas. They are still here today. They are part of the museum from pretty much the very beginning, keeping along with the history area of our museum, we have period rooms, which were designed to portray what life was like just about the turn of the century. That would be the turn of the last -- two centuries ago, and those are as authentic as we possibly could make them. We have a great exhibit in our downstairs area known as the street scene, which sort of tells the story of what Wickenburg looked like just as we came into the 20th century.

>> Mike Sauceda:
About 33,000 visitors a year stop at the Desert Caballeros Western Museum. They learn about the history of Wickenburg, and see western memorabilia, like guns, chaps, spurs, whips and other items that cowboys used when herding cattle, and the home life of those cowboys can be seen in life-size displays of life in a ranch house. There are changing exhibits, like this Navajo blanket display.

>> Royce Kardinal:
The beautiful Navajo weavings. As they were created, most of the ones we're seeing in the exhibition today are our products of the late 1800s. I think it's amazing to look at the colors that were so vividly used and the patterns used in these weavings. It's hard to imagine that they were being done in that era.

>> Mike Sauceda:
A fire destroyed the original building in 1972, but the volunteer spirit that helped build and run the museum kicked in again.

>> Royce Kardinal:
It was two years later on December 21st, the anniversary of the fire, that we opened this facility that we currently have. That was done by raising about $250,000, which in 1974 was a pretty good chunk of money, and very hard to come by in those days.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Museums like the Desert Caballeros Western Museum provide a glimpse into the past. Kardinal says as the museum looks into its own future, it will call on that western spirit again that built it in the first place.

>> Royce Kardinal:
There is an exciting future. There is no limit.

>> Michael Grant:
Every Monday on "Horizon," we feature a new Arizona story. Next Monday we look at the rich history and visual beauty of the Arizona Biltmore resort and spa.

>> Paul Atkinson:
A tax cut for businesses? Unlike homeowners who pay 10\% of assessed property value, commercial property is taxed at 25\%. Lawmakers and the Governor are poised to reduce that amount. Plus, why lowering cable TV fees would mean less money for cities, Tuesday at 7:00 on "Horizon."

>> Michael Grant:
Wednesday, we'll tell you about a contentious development fight in Mesa over 250 acres of cotton fields. Thursday, we'll examine Arizona's housing market. It's growing at a blistering rate. Friday, join us for the Journalists' Roundtable. Thanks very much for being here on a Monday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one, good night.

Paul Gigot, WSJ editor


  • Pulitzer prize-winner Paul Gigot is the editor for the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page. A staunch conservative, his diplomatic manner has made him a sought-after pundit on many television news programs, including the news hour here on PBS. A guest of the Goldwater Institute recently, he spoke on a number of issues. Larry Lemmons caught up with him at the Biltmore.
Guests:
  • Paul Gigot - editor, Wall Street Journal
  • Kathy Boyle - Chief Operating Officer, Arizona Pharmacy Alliance
  • Tom O'Halleran - Representative


View Transcript

>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," in an effort to fight meth production, the legislature wants to restrict a common cold product. A talk with the conservative editor of the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page, Paul Gigot, and a visit to Wickenburg's Desert Caballeros Museum, tonight on Arizona stories.

>> Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to Horizon. A bill in Oklahoma regulating the sales of pseudoephedrine is credited with reducing the seizures of methamphetamine labs by 80\%. In Arizona, House Bill 2639 is designed to do just that. Opponents managed to slow the legislation, but a week ago, using a "strike all amendment," the bill's sponsor pushed the legislation through the Natural Resources and Agriculture Committee. Mike Sauceda gives us a look at what the bill would do.

>>Mike Sauceda:
If you have a stuffy nose, buying pseudoephedrine for relief is a fairly simple process. You can buy it over the counter, but because pseudoephedrines has been used to make methamphetamine, a bill has been introduced to make it harder to buy the drug. House Bill 2639 would require pseudoephedrine to be sold only by a pharmacist or pharmacist technician. Those buying it could purchase only nine grams or less, within a 30-day period. You would have to present a photo ID and have to sign a log. Pharmacists or pharmacist assistants who violated those laws could be fined and could face criminal charges after 6 violations. The measure does not affect the gel, capsule or liquid forms of pseudoephedrine. The bill would also set up a methamphetamine use prevention program. John Musil owns 11 apothecary shops in Arizona.

>> John Musil:
I am for the reduction of methamphetamine use in this state. Absolutely. Do I feel this bill is the correct measure? I think it has some great tenets, however, I think there needs to be more on the avoidance side. If there is a meth -- if I'm a meth cook and I know I'm going to serve 85\% of my sentence, first strike and I'm out, I'm going to think twice about doing it. If somebody were coming into the pharmacy, they potentially may see it on the counter or asked the pharmacist for Sudafed.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Musil says pharmacists don't sell huge quantities of any drug. He says that many of the large quantities of sales were happening at convenience stores.

>> John Musil:
Our responsibility is to our patients. By selling large quantities of any substance, aspirin, Tylenol, or pseudoephedrine, it's not in our patient's best interests to be purchasing such large quantities. So from a professional ethics standpoint, we would frown upon that type of sale.

>> Mike Sauceda:
If the bill passes, Musil says it would be tougher to get a nasal decongestant because it would require a pharmacist to be on hand.

>> John Musil:
Extremely inconvenient for someone to get pseudoephedrine if this bill passes. The main reason for that, if you look in rural communities where access to healthcare is limited at best, the pharmacist is the most approachable healthcare provider in the industry. Patients can go and ask questions, seek treatment for short periods of time for an ailment, and then be referred to a physician if that ailment continues to progress. By limiting the pseudoephedrine sale, people that had a cold that could be easily treated with a short course of pseudoephedrine would have limited access to at that point.

>> Mike Sauceda:
In Oklahoma, a similar bill is credited with reducing the number of meth labs busted there by 80\%.

>> John Musil:
I'd have to see the data regarding that. Is it -- the law enforcement was the same, the same number of police patrolling? Was the DEA as actively involved as they were a year ago? I think there are a lot of factors that need to be looked at.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Musil says other things the bill does not address is the supply of meth from Mexico and pseudoephedrine internet sales.

>> Michael Grant:
A couple of months ago, Kathy Boyle, she's the chief operating officer of the Arizona Pharmacy Alliance, appeared on "Horizon" with the bill's sponsor, Representative Tom O'Halleran. What follows are excerpts from that show, in which Boyle explains the Alliance's opposition to the bill.

>> Kathy Boyle:
First of all, pharmacists do realize there is a problem. We do want to provide solutions to that problem and want to help law enforcement crack down on the meth labs occurring in our state. But with all due respect to Representative O'Halleran, this bill goes to the extreme measure to where we think it will inconvenience the consumer to the degree that once again you have a legitimate product that the consumer can use that they have an been able to purchase, obviously certain purchases they can make and certain quantities they can, and unfortunately, there are folks out there that take this legitimate product and make it an illegitimate product. Pharmacists are very concerned about that for the consumer access, but also what it will do to their own practice, because there is only so much shelf space behind a pharmacy counter. And we know with the hundreds of products that are manufactured now with pseudoephedrine, whether it be the single ingredient or combination products, you could see some reduction in the amount of product available to the consumer. Pharmacies will only carry so many products. They can't carry everything they currently have in their inventory now. So we think obviously it does pose a problem for the pharmacists and time factors, et cetera, that's why the pharmacist community is extremely concerned about this bill. We already know that most of these meth cooks use fake IDs. Part of the bill is that the pharmacist will have to write down the person's name, address and have them sign it and keep this log book for law enforcement to come in at their leisure to check to see who is purchasing these products. Well, for us, if they are not using real IDs, you already have a list of a fake IDs. What does that tell law enforcement? For pharmacists to step into a law enforcement activity, they are not trained to do that, and to keep this log book is onerous for the pharmacist as well, I can tell consumers right now if this goes into effect, you can expect longer lines at your pharmacy to wait for your pharmacist or technician to make the transaction.

>> Michael Grant:
Joining us now to promote the potential law is Arizona's Attorney General, Terry Goddard who was shaking his head repeatedly as we ran some of that tape. Terry, it's good to see you again.

>> Terry Goddard:
Thank you, Michael. It's a pleasure to be here.

>> Michael Grant:
Let's start with the fake ID point. What effectively was being said there is what good does it do because these people are using fake IDs.

>> Terry Goddard:
What an amazing ruse to hear from the industry. They are speaking out for the folks who make drugs, the pharmaceutical companies, and those who are selling huge numbers of over-the-counter tablet forms of pseudoephedrine, which can be turned into methamphetamines, highly toxic, incredibly addictive drug. Most recent thing they have used to attack the bill that Representative O'Halleran has been repeatedly proposing, this is his third try in this session, is that somehow it will lead to identity theft. How much of your information does your pharmacist have right now? We literally have made a list of all of the things, personal information about each individual customer that a pharmacist keeps if they do any prescriptions at all for that individual. It's extraordinary. So the pharmacists have the information. The bill has been slightly tweaked to show that it's not a list that somebody would sign, it could be a card, it could even eventually be an electronic submission, but the important thing here, the critical thing to remember, is that in Oklahoma, as you mentioned in the open, 80\% reduction in meth labs. What part of 80\% don't they understand? This is a way to stop or to almost totally stop the manufacturer of methamphetamines in homes and motor homes and even cars all across the State of Arizona.

>> Michael Grant:
But Terry, if the bad guys are using fake IDs, is there any merit at all to that point?

>> Terry Goddard:
No, there may be a few that slip through with fake IDs, but identity thieves and there certainly are a lot of those among the meth using population, they are using credit cards to steal money. They are not going out face to face and saying here is my photo ID, look, it's me. That's a whole different kind of fakery. In fact, the same number of identity thieves exist in Arizona as in Oklahoma, in the same proportions. If they were easy to come buy, Oklahoma would not have had the incredible reduction that they got.

>> Michael Grant:
What about the argument that most of these sales occur at convenience stores, ban the sale at convenience stores, which I believe this bill would do --

>> Terry Goddard:
Yes.

>> Michael Grant:
-- and don't worry about the pharmacies because you have corralled a significant portion of the problem simply by getting them out of Circle Ks or 7-Elevens or whatever the case may be.

>> Terry Goddard:
Let me focus on the really absurd argument that it's an inconvenience to pharmacists. Sure, pharmacists may have to do a bit more, but they do an awful lot of record-keeping now. We have a lot of pharmacists that don't share that opinion. I have a letter from one who has been in business for 30 years. He says this is a small price to pay for cutting back on the methamphetamine problem. But the real canard out here is saying that consumers will be disadvantaged. The only thing this bill focuses on is the tablet form of pseudoephedrine. That's the critical ingredient for making methamphetamine. Only the tablet form is targeted by this bill. All other kinds, the cold medicine, the gel caps, liquid forms and the new forms that are -- Sudafed PE. It sounds like it has ephedrine in it but it doesn't. It's a new product that has no meth producing ingredients. Those will be available if this bill passes, no problems for consumers. They have exactly the same diagnostic or medicine effect. There is no medical reason why somebody should have a tablet as opposed to a gel cap, as opposed to liquid form. All of this business about consumers having a late-night emergency where they suddenly have kids with a cold and they must have their pseudoephedrine tablet is ridiculous. They can find any time 24 hours a day throughout the State of Arizona, some form of pseudoephedrine to solve their problem.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry, as you know, sometimes the perfect is the enemy of the good.

>> Terry Goddard:
True.

>> Michael Grant:
Would it be possible -- I understand that probably having the pharmacist do it is the best way to go, but could you have just regular store personnel keep the log, make sure that the sales were restricted, those kinds of things in an attempt to get past some of these objections but still get to a large portion of a good idea?

>> Terry Goddard:
You could, and I don't think it would work. Pharmacists are trained in the dispensing of various types of medication. This bill would make the pseudoephedrine tablets a class 5, which means it would have to be distributed by a pharmacist. I think that's the appropriate step. These are dangerous. What you turn these tablets into is one of the most lethal drugs out there on the market today. We've got to stop the production of meth. This is the most effective way to do it.

>> Michael Grant:
Terry Goddard, our attorney general, thank you for the input.

>> Terry Goddard:
Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Pulitzer prize winning editorialist Paul Gigot is the editor for the "Wall Street Journal" editorial page. A staunch conservative, his diplomatic manner has made him a sought-after pundit on many television news programs, including the news hour here on PBS. A guest of the Goldwater Institute recently, he spoke on a number of issues. Larry Lemmons caught up with him at the Biltmore.

>>Larry Lemmons:
You wrote before President Bush's inauguration that this is the Republican moment. What did you mean by that? And what do you think we can expect in the president's second term?

>> Paul Gigot:
You're talking about a Republican political moment where they have the White House and enhanced majorities in the Senate and House after an election. That's the first time that's happened since 1928. So it's a big opportunity for them. On the other hand, it's a big test to demonstrate if they can govern now as a majority in a way that's philosophically coherent and that accomplishes some of the goals that they promised to accomplish in the campaign. I think it's a big test and voters who voted for them are going to be looking to see whether they can do it.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Traditional conservative values include a balanced budget and much more limited government. During this administration, however, we've seen the opposite of that. We have a budget deficit and much larger government, because of homeland security, September 11th and all of that, but also because of the Medicare prescription drug plan. What are your thoughts on that?

>> Paul Gigot:
Well, I think Republicans have -- some of them -- have decided that they rather like being in Washington and the perquisites of incumbency, one of which is spending, which they rather like so they have become converts to big porky highway bills and taxing some people to deliver benefits to others, which is what the prescription drug benefit is all about. It was much larger than it needed to be, much richer than it needed to be to address those relatively few seniors who needed help with prescription drug coverage. A lot of people get coverage from their companies. They didn't need to be subsidized too. So I think Republicans need to have kind of a philosophical self-assessment here, and begin to control their spending habits. I think the tax cuts were very useful in helping to revive the economy, especially the ones in 2003, so I wouldn't raise taxes, but I think they need to get their spending habits under control.

>>Larry Lemmons:
So what would you cut?

>> Paul Gigot:
If you're asking me, I'd revisit the Medicare prescription drug benefit. I'd means test it and make sure that it went for seniors that really needed it. I would take the highway bill and cut it way down, not pass a big one. I would look at everything in the federal budget and say what do we need to spend, what do we not need to spend. Homeland security has become a catch-all to justify a lot of spending that wouldn't otherwise happen, and with all due respect to North Dakota, they are probably not under the same terrorist threat as New York City or LA, so they don't need the same amount of money. Public -- homeland security spending has been used as a slogan to justify everything from farm subsidies for a new fire truck for fire departments across the country.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Our own Senator John McCain and Representative Jeff Flake have been against the pork piled onto these budget plans. What can be done to help put an end to that?

>> Paul Gigot:
There are two things that can be done. One is the president has to pay attention. He has a veto pen. He can I, you know what, that's got to go. He can use his leverage and negotiating power to get some of it out. That's one thing. He has done that a little bit on the highway bill. They wanted to pass $380 billion. He's got them down to $284 in the House. The other thing is Congress itself should change the rules of its budget process, so that the budget that they pass in the beginning of the year is the target spending they have to meet at the end of the year. Right now they don't. It doesn't have the force of law. It's just an advisory, and what happens is they do with great fanfare, say we're only raising spending by 2\%. At the end of the year they say with muffled voices, oh sorry, that's 4\% or 5\%. They need to put their own enforcement mechanisms in place, and I think Jeff Flake and Senator John McCain and others have tried to do that. Republicans to be consistent with their principles should try to do that.

>> Larry Lemmons:
Recently the president came to Tucson to promote his Social Security plan. At the moment, he's having a difficult time selling Social Security. Do you think if there hadn't been the scandal at Enron, the investment houses, mutual funds, that there might not be so much of a resistance against privatizing Social Security, if privatization is the word to use.

>> Paul Gigot:
I don't think privatize is the perfect word because it's not your money in the sense, you can't take it out and spend it. It's still a forced savings plan. Well, I think the president has accomplished something already in that he's won the debate over whether there is a problem. All of the polls show that the public realizes that there is a financing shortfall. It is inevitable. It may not happen next year or the year after that, but it's coming, and it's going to require huge benefit cuts or huge tax increase to finance it. I think he's winning that argument. The argument over solutions he hasn't won yet. He is introducing concepts to the American public that take a while to sink in and that are hard to get congress to commit to, because he has to ask them to do the unnatural act of looking beyond the next election. If they do nothing about Social Security this year, no voter will notice, right? Because they won't be affected in a personal way. But he's asking them to think ahead, think about the long term, think about younger people. It's a responsible thing to do, but it's also a difficult thing to accomplish. I think when it comes to the Enron and these other scandals, they haven't helped the cause, certainly, but everybody understands that there is always risk in the market. It would be a mistake, I think, and nobody is proposing letting individuals play the penny stock market in Denver, or put all of their eggs in one basket. You have -- retirement needs to be considered across a continuum. You've got your 401(k), you have your personal IRA savings, if you have them. What I like about this plan, is that a lot of people at lower income levels don't have the opportunity to build wealth because they are living paycheck to paycheck, and that 15\%, 12.4\% payroll tax goes out of their pocket and the government takes it and spends it on seniors. They take - current workers and spend it on retirees. If an individual, a young person can tap into the power of compound interest over time and build up a nest egg. Daniel Patrick Moynahan, the former New York Senator, I used to talk to him a lot about this and I asked him why are you in favor of this and he said two words, wealth and equality. This is a chance to address the inequality in the ability to build wealth. If you are a relatively well off person, you make $100,000 a year, you can put away some, because you have -- in a retirement account. You can use the benefit of tax subsidized IRAs. You can't do that if you are making $25,000.

>> Michael Grant:
The search for gold has played a prominent role in the history of Arizona. In fact, Wickenburg was founded after the discovery of a gold mine. And because it's one of the oldest Arizona towns, Wickenburg is rich in history. You can see much of that history in the Desert Caballeros Western Museum. Producer Mike Sauceda and videographer Scot Olson give us a video tour.

>> Royce Kardinal:
We're in the museum of the people. Museums in some areas have a bad rap that they only cater to the elite or wealthy crowd. This museum is for the people to get a basic understanding.

>> Mike Sauceda:
It's a big museum in a little town, formed in 1963, born out of a license plate collection, appropriate for a town built at the crossroads of several highways.

>> Royce Kardinal:
It was a dream of our former -- well, he was actually practicing school superintendent at the time, H.K. Mack McClennan. It was his dream. He started out with a small collection of rusty old license plates.

>> Mike Sauceda:
The name came from an early group of patrons.

>> Royce Kardinal:
One of the groups that was very active in the early formation of this was the Desert Caballeros riding group started in the late '40s. These people who came from throughout the country to enjoy a wild and wooly week in the west were some of the first people that were actually nudged for a contribution to get the museum started.

>> Hobert Mead:
Welcome to the Brayton commercial store. It's one of the bright spots of the town, because you came here to get whatever you needed.

>> Mike Sauceda:
The museum was originally located in the Brayton commercial building, a general store that existed until the '50s in Wickenburg, now recreated --. Hobert Mead spends his day in front of the general store recreation, just as old men with beards did when the store existed.

>> Hobert Mead:
When I hear them, I just sit like that, and I've had them come down and pinch my arm to see if I'm real and I've had them stand next to me and tell their spouse, okay, take my picture and stuff like that. It's a couple from Columbia, Missouri, and he stopped on the fourth step there and she walked over right up here about 15 inches away, and I winked at her, and she screamed and they heard her upstairs, and she landed behind her husband on step four.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Hobert is one of the many volunteers who keep the museum going.

>> Royce Kardinal:
This museum is long on expectations, long an excellence and short on staff and paid people to work. Our volunteers have proven to be very astute in helping to tell our story.

>> Rea Ludke:
Visitors come into our western gallery and see all types of western art, like this contemporary piece by Gary Smith, and then we have a lot of older pieces.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Rea Ludke is one of the other volunteers. Her specialty is in the Western art exhibit, which represents one of the two main functions of the Desert Caballeros Western Museum.

>> Rea Ludke:
It is a combination of history, certainly, but it also -- we now are presently standing in a wonderful art museum that has some of the finest western art around -- certainly in this state and in many other states. It's a gem of a collection.

>> Mike Sauceda:
You can take in western art from the 1800's by artist George Campton to contemporary western art and sculpture. Mining was the reason for the founding of Wickenburg reflected in this gem and mineral display. As a history museum, Desert Caballeros has a rich vein to mine.

>> Royce Kardinal:
Wickenburg is one of the oldest communities in Arizona, second only to Tucson, founded by the early Spaniard movement that came through.

>> Mike Sauceda:
That history is brought to life by dioramas and a full-size territorial town exhibit.

>> Royce Kardinal:
Some of our first exhibits that started in the museum were dioramas. They are still here today. They are part of the museum from pretty much the very beginning, keeping along with the history area of our museum, we have period rooms, which were designed to portray what life was like just about the turn of the century. That would be the turn of the last -- two centuries ago, and those are as authentic as we possibly could make them. We have a great exhibit in our downstairs area known as the street scene, which sort of tells the story of what Wickenburg looked like just as we came into the 20th century.

>> Mike Sauceda:
About 33,000 visitors a year stop at the Desert Caballeros Western Museum. They learn about the history of Wickenburg, and see western memorabilia, like guns, chaps, spurs, whips and other items that cowboys used when herding cattle, and the home life of those cowboys can be seen in life-size displays of life in a ranch house. There are changing exhibits, like this Navajo blanket display.

>> Royce Kardinal:
The beautiful Navajo weavings. As they were created, most of the ones we're seeing in the exhibition today are our products of the late 1800s. I think it's amazing to look at the colors that were so vividly used and the patterns used in these weavings. It's hard to imagine that they were being done in that era.

>> Mike Sauceda:
A fire destroyed the original building in 1972, but the volunteer spirit that helped build and run the museum kicked in again.

>> Royce Kardinal:
It was two years later on December 21st, the anniversary of the fire, that we opened this facility that we currently have. That was done by raising about $250,000, which in 1974 was a pretty good chunk of money, and very hard to come by in those days.

>> Mike Sauceda:
Museums like the Desert Caballeros Western Museum provide a glimpse into the past. Kardinal says as the museum looks into its own future, it will call on that western spirit again that built it in the first place.

>> Royce Kardinal:
There is an exciting future. There is no limit.

>> Michael Grant:
Every Monday on "Horizon," we feature a new Arizona story. Next Monday we look at the rich history and visual beauty of the Arizona Biltmore resort and spa.

>> Paul Atkinson:
A tax cut for businesses? Unlike homeowners who pay 10\% of assessed property value, commercial property is taxed at 25\%. Lawmakers and the Governor are poised to reduce that amount. Plus, why lowering cable TV fees would mean less money for cities, Tuesday at 7:00 on "Horizon."

>> Michael Grant:
Wednesday, we'll tell you about a contentious development fight in Mesa over 250 acres of cotton fields. Thursday, we'll examine Arizona's housing market. It's growing at a blistering rate. Friday, join us for the Journalists' Roundtable. Thanks very much for being here on a Monday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one, good night.

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