Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

October 5, 2006


Host: Michael Grant

9/11 memorial


Guests:
  • Governor Janet Napolitano - Democratic incumbent
  • Len Munsil - Republican candidate
  • Barry Hess - Libertarian candidate
Category:

View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight a Horizon special. With immigration topping the list of issues impacting Arizona, three people are seeking the reins of the state. Immigration just one issue with which the next governor will have to deal. There's also the education of English learners and the controversy that arise suddenly like the 9/11 memorial. A debate between the three candidates running for governor. That's next on Horizon.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Arizona's governor can be elected for up to two four-year terms as the representative of one of the three branches of government. The governor has many duties which impact your lives. The governor annually recommending to the state legislature a budget and suggestions for new laws. Chief executive also serves as commander in chief of the state's militia, appoints judges and members of state regulatory boards and commissions and state department heads. There are three people running for governor. In a few moments they will debate the issues but first here's a look at each candidate.

Mike Sauceda:
Barry Hess is 49 and resides in Phoenix. He is a currency trader. He is married and has a son. He is not running as a clean elections candidate. Len Munsil lives in Scottsdale and is 42 years old. He is an attorney. He is married and has eight children. Munsil is running with clean elections funding. Janet Napolitano is 49 years old and a resident of Phoenix. She is an attorney, is not married and has no children. She is running as a clean elections candidate.

Michael Grant:
Joining me now is libertarian candidate Barry Hess, the Republican Challenger Len Munsil and Democratic Incumbent Janet Napolitano. Tonight's debate sponsored by Arizona's citizens clean elections commission. Also sponsoring the debate is Arizona State University. Each candidate has a couple of minutes to make an opening statement. The order of presentation chosen right before the show randomly, certified by an accounting firm. And Barry, you get to open.

Barry Hess:
Here we go. You know, I'm really proud to be the only nonparticipating in the clean elections scheme of things. Because I think it's a little hypocritical and unethical to be able to tell people that I am going to help lessen their burden by taking more of their money so it makes me very proud to be the only one running a clean campaign. Without taking campaign money. It's amazing because I'm no psychic but I can tell you exactly what's going to happen here tonight. We are going to have a democrat and she is going to tell you that she knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard-earned money better than you can. The republican is going to be a little bit different. He is going to tell you he knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard earned money better than the democrat. As the libertarian, I have to tell you the truth. These are things that only you and I as responsible parents and community members can do no matter how much money we throw at it; no matter how much we wish it to be true. It still falls back to our personal responsibility. As a libertarian I am the keeper of a sacred trust between the people themselves and their servant government. And I hope to do a good job at illustrating what that means. Four years ago, we were promised out of the box thinking. We ended up with just a bigger box. We were also told that our failing schools that were ranked on some of the levels at 44th in the nation that were going to be made better. Our governor promised that she was going to make them better giving it all of her time, her talent and her abilities and I believe she did. It just wasn't good enough. We are now ranked 50th or 49th fit makes people feel better. I would like to see the argument change not to 49th or 50th but first or second. I believe very firmly education should be the center post of every single campaign at election of time these are the people who are going to be running this place when you and I are too old and gray to do anything about it and I want them 10 times smarter and more competent than I could ever hope to be. I hope tonight's debate will give you some of the ideas that will show you how getting government out of the way and respecting our constitution and your individual rights is exactly what we are all about. And I hope that you will see that very clearly. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Good evening. Your opening.

Janet Napolitano:
Thank you very much. You know, for the past three and a half years I have had the honor and privilege as serve go as your governor. When I took office Arizona was not in very good shape. We were over $1 billion in deficit. Our economy was not moving. We had just come out of the alternative fuels fiasco. Now we have over $1 billion surplus. We have invested in education. All day kindergarten, $100 million for teacher pay raises. We set aside $400 million to build new research labs at our universities and a new medical center in Downtown Phoenix. And we are just getting started. The economy that was not moving very fast three, three and a half years ago is now ranked as the number one forward momentum economy in the United States. And our per capita income the first half of 2006 went up faster than any other state in the country. So we have made great progress. But this campaign and this election is about the future. What is our future? To me there are three huge challenges that we must confront: education, Barry mentioned it. We have a lot left to do. We have focused on k-3, kindergarten, whatever but now we need math and science and higher education. Economic growth, jobs, throughout the state of Arizona, and then we must deal with the issue of growth. We are expected to double in population over the next 30 to 40 years. We need to get ahead. Transportation, water planning, open space, all of the issues that go into creating quality communities and to having that unique Arizona quality of life that we have all come to so appreciate. There's a lot of work to be done. A lot has been done but if we work together, we will make Arizona a number one state in this country. And that is my goal for all of us. I would appreciate your support and your help for another four years.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, good evening.

Len Munsil:
Good evening, Michael.

Michael Grant:
You're opening statement.

Len Munsil:
Thank you. My name is Len Munsil; I am the republican candidate for governor of Arizona. I am a native Arizonan, third generation of the state. One of the great joys I have experienced over the last eight months is traveling the state of Arizona, getting the chance to talk to tens of thousands of individual citizens in homes, at community events, learning what's on their heart, their desires, their hopes, their dreams for the state of Arizona. I am, I have been here, a lot of people came here to move to the state of Arizona because it's a great place to live. I have been here and chose to stay here and raise my family here. And I met my wife Tracy right here at Arizona State University. I am a graduate of our public school system. Of our public universities. We have been married more than 20 years and have eight children. When I look at my kids I think of the future of our state and what kind of quality of life they will have here. I believe very strongly that the core values that I represent, limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, the need to secure the border, a tough approach to crime, appointing conservative judges who will be tough on crime, and the centrality of the family, that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. I think they provide a stark contrast with the values of our current governor. We have seen that on issue after issue affecting the state of Arizona, beginning with the border, we have not secured our board. There's been no change over four years in the number of illegal crossings into our state and that affects the quality of life for all of us. We have the worst crime rate in the nation in the state of Arizona. We have other areas like education, child protective service where this governor said vote for me. Elect me and I will improve things. I will be the education governor. And yet as Barry indicated we have many problems yet to solve. I believe that we can do better in the state of Arizona. The one area we've improved going from a deficit to a surplus only happened because we ignored this governor's economic plan in this governor's economic principles. We can do better in the state of Arizona. If you agree with me, and believe that we can do better for our state, I hope to have your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Thank you. All right. Let's dive into it. I'm always fascinated in election cycles that come up that you simply cannot anticipate. The 9/11 memorial has been capturing a lot of attention in the past weeks. Mr. Munsil you have been accused of politicizing that issue. Have you politicized it?

Len Munsil:
No. I believe the people who politicized it right people who got out there and created a memorial that has a tax on America, attacks on the military, as I said at our press conference, it would be as if we built a memorial to Pearl Harbor and the focus of the memorial was Japanese interment camps. It totally represents a Michael Moore moveon.org out of touch approach to an issue like that. This was meant to honor the families and the victims of those who perished on 9/11. And it does not do that. And I have looked into the eyes of family members of 9/11 victims. I have looked into the eyes of those whose children were lost responding to what happened on 9/11. And I think as I talked about in my opening core values matter here. And we have a governor that embraced that memorial, that stood out there and said this is my commission, this is something I support. It's a great memorial. Totally missing the fact that it offends a lot of people. And I strongly disagree with that.

Michael Grant:
Don't you think bulldozing it might be a sort of an extreme --

Len Munsil:
I said there are elements of it that should be kept but if you look ate overall as a whole it's not just two or three inscriptions it's as if we want to approach teaching our children -- the governor talked about that -- for generations they will learn about 9/11 from this. What they will learn is tolerance for terrorists and the view of the world that doesn't understand we were attacked by people who killed innocent Americans and we don't, we don't need to treat the memory of the victims that way.

Michael Grant: Governor Napolitano, let me go to you. You seemed to embrace the memorial initially. Backed away from that. Said it's really a matter for the commission. Where are you now?

Janet Napolitano: No, I am embraced the memorial but we do no honor to the victims of 9/11 by injecting this into the middle of a gubernatorial campaign. The commission was independent, half appointed by me, half appointed by Governor Hull, and chaired by a firefighter. On the commission were people who had lost loved ones in the World Trade Center. People who had gone back to New York City and to Pennsylvania to clean up the wreckage of those terrible terrorist acts. And the memorial was well intentioned, and the design overall is a very, very good design. The chair of the commission has already said after the election they will take into account some of the comments made and if the memorial can be made better it will be. I was reminded when the Vietnam War Memorial was first built on the Capitol. People didn't like it. It was different. It was new. It was considered disrespectful of those who had given their lives in Vietnam. And the end result was after the political hullabaloo died down there were changes made around that memorial. And today it's most frequently visited memorial on the Capitol Mall in Washington, and a very moving place and the 9/11 Memorial on our capital lawn is as well.

Michael Grant:
Would you encourage the commission to make changes to the 9/11 Memorial similar to the ones you just mentioned for the Vietnam Memorial?

Janet Napolitano:
I encourage the commission to go at it with an open mind. There are people very different points of view at this point and to make their best judgments for what is an appropriate and what is a good memorial. But if you go to the memorial and many people who are criticizing it haven't even actually been there. You can't but be moved by the world trade center piece that is in there, by the fact there its dirt from the field in Pennsylvania in there, and by the intention and respect for the victims that the commission exhibited.

Michael Grant:
But no more guidance from the governor's office than that? Study it carefully, but I have no instructions for you?

Janet Napolitano:
Not at this time, no.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, what do you think about the 9/11 Memorial?

Barry Hess: I was kind of saddened to see it back part of this campaign. We should be talking about the monuments costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars that have football teams and baseball teams in them. But when it really comes down to the monument we have to first determine what it is. If it is there to honor innocent lives lost, then absolutely, some of the offensive statements should go. But if it's there to memorialize an event, around which there are all kinds of questions and dubious official explanations as to what actually happened, then it very much, they are well placed because there is an outrage that comes with it. Where we don't have all the facts as people. So we first have to determine what it is and then go from there. And as governor I would keep my hands off. The commission should be left to do what it will do.

Michael Grant: Let me go to immigration. Four propositions, ballot-related, governor, on the -- on November's ballot. You have vetoed two of them, forms of two of them, official English and also the expansion proposition 200. You recommend Arizona voters veto them as well?

Janet Napolitano: Well, I recommend that Arizona voters look at the immigration issue as a whole. It needs have several components to it. We need to secure the border between the points of entry. I was one of the first two governors to declare a state of emergency. The first governor to ask that the president put the National Guard on the border and pay for it. I was the first governor to set up task forces along the border on stolen vehicle theft, fraudulent I.D. and the like. And when you to go the border, if you go there now and I go there on a regular basis, it is a very different place than it was 18 months ago, a year ago, and indeed, the numbers of illegal immigrant apprehensions are steadily going down. We need that. I am pleased to see and was pleased to stand with the president yesterday to get more resources at our border but we also need comprehensive immigration reform. That's what's really going to turn the tide here, not referenda on the ballot.

Michael Grant:
So people should not vote for English only, and an expansion of proposition 200?

Janet Napolitano:
Well my vetoes speak for themselves but you know what? If the people disagree with me and they have from time to time I will respect the will of the people.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, how do you feel about official English and expansion of the benefits that illegal aliens could qualify for here in the state of Arizona?

Barry Hess:
I think the question of official English is American English but part of the enabling act that made Arizona a state in the first place and no one seems to go back to that. I think we have breached the contract if we try to add any more languages. I am for one single language, a common language in the nation. I think that's very important in terms of binding people as far as the entitlements, if you didn't pay in you shouldn't take out. What no one wants to talk about on the border issues are the effect of NAFTA where we end up dumping all kinds of produce on South America and selling it in their markets for less than they can raise it for. We put 2 million Mexican farmers out of work and of course they head for the cities to water down the labor pool. And then American companies, as part of NAFTA, close down shop here with all minimum wages and all the other nonsensical restrictions and relocate there. So that's where we shipped off a lot of jobs and then the overflow heads north. You certainly can't fault someone for trying to take care of their family. And I wouldn't. My only concern on the border realistically is to stop people from dying in the desert or be falling prey to the coyotes and those people who would represent us in a serious security threat to the physical property or persons of Americans. As far as making the entitlement programs real, we take the honey pot out off the front yard those pesky bears from across the road might stop coming around and the reality is the best way to do it is not to try to clamp down or strong arm them but to make these programs absolutely voluntary. Membership only. You don't have the card you don't get in. Doesn't matter where you are from.

Michael Grant:
English only expansion proposition 200 benefits?

Len Munsil:
I support this proposition. But I think really this speaks to the governor's leadership style. She wants to be on both sides of every issue. We see it with 9/11 where she took responsibility for the commission. She went out and said this is my commission; this is a great monument and now things go south and suddenly it's the commission's problem, move on. Let them deal with it. We see that in the same way with this issue of border security. This Governor has done nothing to make our borders more secure. All of the things that she described to you add up to a big fat zero because of the same number of people that are crossing unlawfully today as there were four years ago. So we see that repeatedly. This issue yesterday with her inviting herself to a photo op with the President of the United States on a bill that provided money for a border fence when this governor was quoted by Senator Ted Kennedy on the floor of the senate with her famous statement that you build a 50-foot wall and I will show a 51-foot ladder she's mocked the very idea of the fence that the president was there to sign a bill for. And that's not leadership. Leadership is looking at the issue of border security and saying, what can I do as governor of Arizona to protect the lives and property of the citizens of our state? Because that's an issue that affects all of us. It certainly affects the people who live near the border. It affects people who are dealing with the educators I have talked to who are dealing with kids who are plopped in their classroom who don't speak English a and at the same time you have doctors -- I talked to doctors who are going to leave the state because they are being sued by illegal aliens they treated for free. People want a governor highways doing more than point the finger at Washington.

Michael Grant:
Have you changed your position on --

Janet Napolitano:
No. Let me give the people of Arizona the facts. First of all, I was have there at the invitation of the President. Why? Because I have been working very closely with the administration on securing our border between the ports of entry. And I believe, as he does, that we must have comprehensive immigration reform. And that gets to the quote about the wall. Yes, I said, you show me a 50-foot wall I will show a 51-foot ladder if all you do is a wall. But if you have fencing and radar and cameras, and manpower all of which are pouring into the Arizona Sonora border right now and you couple that with the temporary worker program and comprehensive immigration reform, then, you have got a real immigration plan that can work. I have been relentless on those issues for the last four years and contrary to what's been stated the fact really are that the border is much safer now. It is more secure. We have more to do. We are going to keep ate every day put one foot in front of the other.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you did, though, refer about three years ago to use of the National Guard on the border as, I think pretty close quote was, an extreme measure. And then it was in your state of the state address earlier this year. Why the shift?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, when the initial proposal was made to put the guard at the border it was for the state of Arizona taxpayers to have to pay for it. And in my view, we must keep pounding on Washington, D.C. because we never get reimbursed from Washington, D.C. once we take the lead that's money out of our treasury. I want to keep pounding on Washington, D.C. second thing was three years ago we were being given assurances about the thousands of new border patrol agents that would be coming to the Arizona Sonora border. In point of fact it's taken much longer than anybody anticipated to get those agents hired, trained, and deployed to do border. So the plan that was developed and the plan that is embodied right now at the border is to send the guard down to take, offload responsibilities from the border patrol so they can focus exclusively on interdicting illegal immigrants and that's why the traffic has gone down.

Michael Grant:
I will cycle that. We will spend some time on this. But Mr. Hess, what about use the guard on the border? There are a lot of people who suggest that the National Guard is a valuable asset. Can do a great number of things very well. But border security may not necessarily be one of its forts or one of its best uses.

Barry Hess:
I think I tend to agree. It's probably not its best use. But it might be a good stop gap. I think realistically where the state of Arizona comes in it should be under the Department of Public Safety. But I would also encourage and shut down the border instantly. I am on the one who put a time limit on it. Give congress 60 days after an inauguration. If they don't come up with the comprehensive program that's going to work, then, I would take sovereignty rights and turn it over to the legislature for 60 days.

Michael Grant:
How do you shut down the border immediately?

Barry Hess:
With manpower is the only thing we have got now. I happen to agree with the technologies that we have. We can intercept and interdict before anybody gets to the border. That's more reasonable than trying to -- it sure is. But we have also got those rampaging Canadians on the other end of the country to worry about. The reality is we have got to shut it down. We have the known roots down because those inaccessible areas are inaccessible to the bad guys as well.

Michael Grant:
Incidentally, let's stick with the Arizona Mexico border. We can --

Len Munsil:
Don't need to go north just yet.

Michael Grant:
Later. The appropriate role of the National Guard, I get the impression that you actually want it there with guns and weaponry.

Len Munsil:
I would want to work with the Federal Government to allow us to supplement their efforts to secure the border. The problem with the governor's response on this issue, she says that, oh, yeah, I was, I didn't think a fence alone was enough but she vetoed the other thing she was talking about. She vetoed the use of radar technology at the border. She vetoed sending the Arizona National Guard to the border and waited back and waited for the Federal Government to finally do something. The lives of our citizens are affected. And you know, it's not enough, it's not just that she's failed to secure the border. After four years in office. It's that she's rolled out welcome mat and just like she doesn't want us to remember that a few years ago she said it was an extreme measure to put the guard at the border she is now claiming it was her plan. She doesn't want people to remember the main thing she said about immigration, early in her term, is we ought to provide driver's licenses for illegal aliens and vetoed a subsidized in state tuition for people here unlawfully. Those are the facts. That is the report of this governor. And in an election year, hour tune has changed quite a bit.

Janet Napolitano:
Again, let's go back to the actual facts. My opponents haven't actually worked on the border. They have no immigration traffic record. They have done nothing. And so they are new to this issue. But what I have constantly said is the federal government needs to take the leading road here, the lead in the war because it's a federal border and I say that as a former united states attorney who supervised the prosecution of over 6,000 illegal immigration cases.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you have said that but I think a lot of Arizonans, not disagreeing with that point, though, say, hold it, we have had a serious failure federally and it's still our state.

Janet Napolitano:
And that is why we have put fraudulent I.D. task forces down there, stolen vehicle task forces down there, gang task forces. We have increased the size of the Department of Public Safety by 62 percent in three years to help us deal with border and border-related crime. So we have been working steadily. And every day, to make sure that we are securing that border between the ports of entry. But you are not going to just do it in 60 days, as Barry suggests, and you know, the entity, the person who will oppose Len the most on arming the National Guard at the border will be the president of the United States. Because he believes, and I support him, that he has struck the appropriate balance for what the guard needs to do down there, to free up the border patrols, to actually provide the law enforcement at the border.

Michael Grant: All right. Listen, I need to shift to some other subjects. Let's go to tax questions, infrastructure questions, some related subjects there. Mr. Hess, what's your overall tax strategy? Elected governor, resist the notion here to say no taxes whatsoever. Give me an idea where Barry Hess is on overall tax policy.

Barry Hess:
Overall tax policy is changing them immediately to conform them to the constitutional requirements. I believe the single most self destructive policy to hit this country was the I am position of a an income tax. No one can find authority for something that didn't exist before 1913 and eight Supreme Court cases say it doesn't exist after the fact and not even because of the rogue agents who routinely destroy marriages and businesses. My concern goes to the heart of the a matter, the family values. I think for the first time in American history it required a two paycheck family to support a home and it took our moms out of the homes and left our latch key children to the mercy of Jerry Springer to teach them morals and values. I think it's exhibiting itself in our young people today. So I want to work toward eliminating income tax and what we will find is that any time these politicians want to attract a news business, what do they do? They offer them an income tax break. I want to offer that to everyone. At the same time that is country founded own one single premise and that's respect for private property ownership rights. I want to eliminate the property property tax altogether. In the interim, of course, offering vouchers or anything to offset, which forces more money into the legislative budget so it forces the legislature to prioritize. Right 94 it's just spends, spend, spend, spend, spend, add, add, add, add, add. I would like them to go back and look at all old programs in order to add new programs.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, off 10-year plan to phase out income tax. Will it work? How do you replace those revenues?

Len Munsil:
I think the key thing, Michael, is to have continual pressure to reduce taxes to spur economic activity in our state. I do believe in tax cuts. And I do support moving in the direction of eliminating the state income tax. We are going to continue to see economic growth in our state. You have states like Florida, New Hampshire, many states that don't have a state income tax and I would like to move in the direction of reducing tax, spurring our economy, continue to have economic growth. That is, again, a clear contrast between me and the incumbent governor because she has fought every single tax decrease and only relented as part of negotiations. She said that the tax cuts proposed this last year were a raid on Arizona's future. And it presents a different philosophy, a different mindset. The tax cuts were not as great as they should have been well budget surplus we had but her approach is to figure identity how to spend that money rather than looking at returning it to the taxpayers that were overpaid.

Michael Grant:
How do you replace revenues?

Len Munsil:
Overtime we will see economic growth continue and you will see an increase come in with sales tax. You look at where we have been we had an 8\% top rate a few years ago. And we are down to 5\% and it's going to decrease this next year, thanks to pressure from the legislature, not from this governor. And yet our revenues have accelerated dramatically. So we need to continue to have downward pressure and reduce taxes and that is what will attract businesses to the state of Arizona.

Michael Grant:
You did resist overall tax cuts. And you offered, instead, affirmatively $100 million of more targeted tax cuts. Is that Janet Napolitano's tax philosophy?

Janet Napolitano:
No. But I think what you need to do when you are the governor is you have to balance the budget. I have presented a balanced budget every year to the legislature. And to do that you have to take, think not only of your revenues but of your spending. You know, what somebody who says I want to eliminate the income tax is not tilling you and your question suggests it is, well, you tell me what classrooms are going to be 40 pupils are more because k-12 spending is the biggest single part of your budget. Tell me which prisoners are letting out of prisons. Tell me what people you are kicking out of access. Those are the big elements of a billing budget. If you don't properly gauge revenues and spending in a growing state as ours is you end up with what I inherited when I came in office, a $1.3 billion deficit. I believe in managing the state finances so we keep the tax rate low and competitive, which it is, our per capita spending is the lowest among any state in the country. So we have got things in balance. But we also need to invest. We also need to invest.

Michael Grant:
Let me go back to one of the points Mr. Hess made on opening statement because I think it's well taken. If I recall correctly about four years ago to the day, perhaps, there were four of us gathered around this -- we were, in fact --

Janet Napolitano:
A quadrennial event.

Michael Grant:
We were facing a $1.3 billion deficit. And credits were the great evil. Everyone was, well, couple of people, including yourself were saying we've got to examine the tax code. Then you come back this year with a tax credit package.

Janet Napolitano:
Right. We did look at those things. But, you know, we signed, I proposed for example a sales tax holiday for school supplies. A lot of states have it. It's wonderfully successful. Legislature didn't like that. They proposed something else. That's the give and take that goes on between a legislature governor a and a legislature. When we negotiated the budget this year by the time we got around to negotiating it the revenues in our state had gone way higher than any projections before hand. So we had a lot more flex bill too toe do a lot more different things.

Michael Grant:
Philosophically now do you think that's the better approach? Targeted tax credits to encourage business execute whatever government think is good growth?

Janet Napolitano:
The tax credits that I think are the most beneficial are those that help stimulate jobs and job creation. The sales factor tax, for example, when which I signed last year which resulted in Intel making a decision to build its new domestic fab right here in Arizona. Business property tax reduction. Tax credits for things like solar energy, some of the things that we want to help stimulate in our economy. And they need to be tied to jobs, quality of life. This year, because the revenues were so high, we were able to accompany those kinds of tax relieve measures with income tax cuts. But again, you can't talk about taxes in isolation. And somebody who has not governed doesn't fully appreciate all the demands that are made to educate, to incarcerate, and to provide health care.

Michael Grant:
Let's go to the tax credit plan. A material point is made. I keep hearing radio ads about I think it's a $2 billion business fund in Michigan. Arizona is a wonderful place to live. But we got a lot of competition. And a fair case can be made that tax credits are not the great evil to pull in the right kind of people.

Len Munsil:
I don't think the government should be in the business of picking and choosing winners in the economy, winners and losers. What we to be doing is providing a level playing field. That is what would attract the state of Arizona. When I hear the governor says we did this and we did that with respect to the economic turn around in Arizona, I can't help but think Babe Ruth and I hit 714 home runs in the major leagues. She came into the deficit of this circumstance. She analyzed the economic circumstances and as you indicated a proposed a number of things, put together a commission that proposed raising taxes on a lot of different areas of sales, and the result of that was the legislature said it's dead on arrival. We had federal tax cuts take affect. We have a growing state and the revenues began to come in and now she wants us to forget that her solving our problems was completely wrong and we had this economic policy without any of other policies being implemented. She did oppose even the tax cuts she's taking credit for now.

Michael Grant:
Recognizing you're libertarian, but taking the world as you find it, sometimes do you have to dangle a carrot to get somebody to come here?

Barry Hess:
On the way there. I think the Governor asked a good question about which classrooms would you shut down? I would like to see us move away from the government system completely. Arizona is just one of those unique states, seven or eight, I think, that have a state constitutional provision to provide for government education. It reads that free or nearly free public instruction. I don't have people having trouble investing to their being classes with home schooling. I'm for home schooling, private school, charter school, government schooling, a competitive mix is the only way we will get a decent education here for Arizona. But when she mentioned which prisoners, 60 to 70\% of the prisoners that we are incarcerating are people who smoked a joint or people who are there just for possession of drugs that they used themselves. I think that would be a good place to get those people off the public dole and out into the work force again.

Michael Grant:
Let me go to the related question of infrastructure improvement. We are expecting 8 million more people in the next 20, 30 years. Infrastructure is being strained, particularly the road system. Maricopa County voters have taxed themselves twice to try to support it. We are growing out, though, and a lot of areas like Pinal County don't have the sales tax base to do that. And we need take a serious look at some sort of state mechanism to start doing things like widening I-17, improving the roads in a growing Phoenix metropolitan area and a number of other needs?

Len Munsil:
Michael, we have a lot of infrastructure problems in our state related to growth that have not been addressed adequately. As a native Arizonan, I have watched in amazement as time after time we build a freeway and it's immediately full, immediately overtaxed with population that we have. We have done a very poor job as a state. In long-term planning looking ahead to trying to plan for all of the people who are coming here. But one of the things that we need to remember when we talk about infrastructure needs of our state, and this affects a lot of other areas including education, is that our inability of our failure to secure the border affects the people of Arizona. It affects our quality of life. And it affects the infrastructure needs in our state. We have got to begin with securing the border. It's going to affect many other aspects of our life.

Michael Grant:
Dedicated tax. State line to support, for example, road infrastructure improvements?

Janet Napolitano: I don't know if that's the way to go, Michael. I think, though, that time stuck in traffic is a time tax. And for people who are traveling to and fro work or trying to pick up the kids from school or what have you, their time is almost their most precious commodity. We are working to see what we can do to accelerate current road. Projects already on the books. We were able this year to put an additional $307 million into transportation to accelerate projects on I-10, I-17. In the valley but also throughout the rest of Arizona because there are transportation issues there as well.

Michael Grant:
Should that be a consistent priority?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I think it's going to have to be. But I think it has to be done in congestion with where our projected population growth is going to be and correlating that with issues about water, water planning, we have been doing a lot on that but we will need water infrastructure. We are going to need to be able to move water from one part of the state to the other as we move along. We need to be talking about the management of public lands and preservation of open space because many of us choose to live in Arizona because we want access to open space. We have to take that into account. We need to be planning where we are well George Gascon to build our schoolings, where our hospitals and emergency rooms are going to be located. That all goes into really thinking long term about the future of Arizona. Where is Arizona going to be in the year 2040? 2050? How do we get there?

Michael Grant:
One place we are going to be we will have a lot more people. Do we focus more state level resources on what I think up to this point in time is often been thought of as local infrastructure issues?

Barry Hess:
Local infrastructures that are combined ends up being the whole statewide but there is a place I think for statewide planning to make sure that people can get from one area of Arizona without telling that's where we wanted to you grow. It will be filled if we will just get government out of the way so that individuals or companies want to build private roads, it's been very successful in California in particular and highly urban congested areas. The private roads rights most successful. And I wouldn't have any problem with encouraging that and if they want to make a profit ought it so much the better.

Michael Grant:
Let me shift to education and, unfortunately, going to have to get into the subject of school safety. It's been a terrible couple of weeks. Obviously, schools and school districts maintain emergency response plans. There's a lot of local options in them as to what additional security measures they take. Metal detectors, police on campus, those kinds of things. Nobody wants to go here but the lessons unfortunately we have learned in the past couple of weeks, do we start, need to start mandating more school security measures for our schools and school districts?

Janet Napolitano:
No. I thought about that. And I still think that that needs to be considered within the context of an individual school or school district and community. Because Arizona is such a, such a diverse place. When I was attorney general, we crafted a school safety manual for schools. And one of the things that I have asked and talked to the Attorney General about yesterday and have sent some letters out, lets make sure those have been kept updated. Let's make sure people are making sure our children are safe in schools because one thing a parent needs to have assures rance of when the child goes to school the child will be safe. That process needs and is under way as we speak.

Michael Grant:
I certainly appreciate the local control aspect but I think probably people in rural Pennsylvania thought they were safe as well.

Janet Napolitano:
Yeah. And so you want to say, well, what is it that exactly you would mandate statewide? Would you mandate --

Michael Grant:
Metal detectors?

Janet Napolitano:
Yes. But in schools that have metal detectors what you find talking to people there you have a metal detector they find a way around it. So it's really focusing people, leadership. Our teachers, our principal, our parents, our community leaders, lieutenants make sure, let's wrap our arms around our schools make sure they are safe as possible.

Michael Grant:
School safety.

Len Munsil:
Yeah, obviously, it's tragic that we have to even think about those issues. And it speaks to where we are as a culture compared to 40 or 50 years ago that we have people coming in on a regular basis and committing these acts of violence. I do think when you look at issues like metal detectors we have them in our federal buildings. We have them at the airport and the State Capital where the Governor works. I think that's something we need to look at in our public schools. No one should have any fear or concern sending their students to a public school that there's an act of violence is going to come upon them there. I think that's something we need to look at.

Michael Grant:
What do you think, Mr. Hess?

Barry Hess:
I think we have created all kinds of disarmed victim zones and we have seen it here. The one in Pennsylvania, because of the culture, was very unique. Because that's generally a very pacifist group and it couldn't be foreseen. That's one of the hazards of day to day life. Government can't make you safe. It's like the police force. They become crime scene protectors. They are always there after someone is harmed. Of course, I am going to advocate making sure that the second amendment is always respected so that people can protect themselves and their families but also if they choose not a carry a firearm, the bad guys don't know who it is it tends to discourage them. They will either go away by discouragement or demise. The last one in the spat of them when we had all the school shootings three or four or five together, it was interceded quite accidentally where an armed individual was able to stop and it they stopped until this one. And I think it's really important if we get back to people understanding that person over there across the table may well, able to defend themselves, the bad guys go away. They always say you don't find a renegade shooter on a firing range. There's a reason for that.

Michael Grant:
English language learning, Federal Court is going to take that issue back up in January, take a look at what Arizona has done in the past six years, whether or not we are spending adequate resource on English language learners. What's Len Munsil's position on where the court should go?

Len Munsil:
First of all, I have to point out again like many, many other issues if with we had done a better job securing our border that's another area where citizens of Arizona are paying the consequences. We don't turn people away at schoolhouse door so once they are here when we have not done our job to security border we end up paying a lot of additional costs. I thought the proposal that the legislature had was legitimate. I can't believe that we would ski to an unelected federal judge the power to determine how we are going to solve problems like that. It's one of the issues I have been active in over the years opposing activist judges imposing their will on the people using some flimsy constitutional excuse. That not only did that happen, Michael, in this case but our Governor and our Attorney General went along with it. And we are happy to have the federal judge making decisions for the people of Arizona because she didn't like the decisions that the legislature -- she didn't want to negotiate with the legislature anymore. She wanted the federal judge to make the decision. Fortunately that decision was overturned by the Ninth Circuit. We will have another crack at it.

Michael Grant:
Governor, Ninth Circuit has said state Arizona of ought to be given a shot at demonstrating that a number of things it's done in the past six years or so, the dedicated sales tax for teacher's salaries increased revenues from state land, the students first building program are enough down there. You have taken a strong position they are not enough. Is that the position you will anyway January?

Janet Napolitano:
Here is what needs to happen. We have a million children in school in Arizona. About 160,000 don't speak English as their first language. They need to learn how to read, write, and speak in English as quickly as possible. To be academically competitive to be economically successful. We need to do whatever it takes to get that done. Yes, we are in court. I wish we were not in court. And Len wasn't at the capital. He wasn't party to what was going on. But we were just at an impasse and when you are at an impasse and the issue here are we complying with a federal law, a federal law, that's what federal courts are there to decide. We had asked the federal court earlier to go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. He decided not to. What the Ninth Circuit basically said was let's go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. That's benefit scheduled. But I hope when we start the next session, we can renew this dialogue. People have been meeting, well meaning people have been meeting about this during the interim and if we can get this out of court and back to the capital and get it done and get it done in time for the children who are now in school, that to me would be a satisfactory result.

Michael Grant:
There are some statistics from the Nogales School District that indicate that they have made a remarkable progress.

Janet Napolitano:
And there are statistics from --

Michael Grant:
Of the current funding scheme.

Janet Napolitano:
There are old statistics but there are statistics from other districts and recognize this is the whole state not just Nogales that would say otherwise. Does and that's why we now have a committee that's meeting. I have made several appointments to it. The legislature made several appointments to it. The superintendent made several appointments to it. I have asked them to take an objective look at the actual data. What does it cost in the year 2006 to make sure that a youngster learns to read, write, and speak in English? That at ought to be our criterion.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
I think it's really interesting because here we have the state getting involved in something it has no business getting involved in. I have had the opportunity to travel around world and I would never once been in a country where they provided me with French language learning or German language learning or anything else and neither should we. That should fall to those people who recognize the need. And they do recognize the need and let them band together and form their own way, their own method of learning English. Because that's when the parents start putting emphasis on it and parts of our problem in education is we have got a whole generation people my age with kids who don't appreciate education because they're looking for mommy government to provide it. When they know that it's a source of pride or something they can develop on their own, they learn better. Everyone knows that if you want to learn something, you learn far better than trying to cram it into their head. And it just seems to be ludicrous to have the state involved in alternate languages and not including all 144 languages in the country. At the very least. It just seems silly for us to even be involved in going into the Spanish language.

Michael Grant:
Only got about a minute and a half total time left. Give me 30 seconds on this. Corporate tuition tax credits for private scholarship funds. Do you support?

Barry Hess:
Absolutely. Have to support it. That's one of the good areas because what I would like to see is our school system based upon a competency exam so that you, work in your butt off, you get straight A's, I'm slacking we get the same diploma. This somehow seems inequitable. I would like to see an exterior 10 see exam that stayed voluntary so parents could zero in exactly where their kids needed the help and at some point employers would say, we want you because you are competent in these areas. That's when they would form corporate schools.

Len Munsil:
I am a strong supporter of educational choice. I believe we have to do a lot of things to strengthen public education in the state of Arizona including merit pay for teachers who are doing the best job of educating our kids but I fought to defend those tax credits in the Arizona Supreme Court and I believe very strongly that school choice and parental options in education should not be the exclusive province of the wealthy.

Michael Grant:
You oppose them. Why?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I agreed to some too business tax credits. I have a pilot to see if they do make a difference but we have lots of choice within the public schools in Arizona. We have open enrollment. We have charter schools. We have the most charter schools of any state in the country. The plain fact of the matter is as the overwhelming majority of our children are going to be he would indicated in the public schools. And we need to make sure that these public schools are as good as they can be. And that the children graduating from those public schools are ready to go on to community college, to university, or to mier technical education because that's when what our 21st century economy is going to demand.

Michael Grant:
Ok. Well, the clock is demanding that we close this phase of the debate. And we are out of time for this debate between the candidates running for governor. Each candidate will now have two minutes for a closing statement, once again, under certified circumstances the order of presentation was chosen randomly, I am checking my notes, Mr. Munsil, you go first.

Len Munsil:
Yes. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate the chance to be with you and talk about the issues important to our state. You know, when I got into the race for governor somebody meet me and my family and they said with eight kids if you can govern a family of 10, you can -- governor of the state of Arizona ought to be a piece of cake. Well, I don't go that far. There's a lot of issues that face us as a people. But I think the values that I represent, the core values that I represent of limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, of the need to secure the border of the state of Arizona, a tough approach to crime, appointing judges who are tough on crime and the centrality of the family, I believe strongly that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. And that's what I would represent. By contrast, I think we have a governor who has demonstrated herself to be outside the mainstream of the people of Arizona. A record breaking number of vetoes in one term of office. A failure to adequately address border security in the state of Arizona. No one questions it's the federal government's responsibility. But when they don't do their job, and the lives of Arizonans are affected, the question is what does the governor do? And we have had a governor who has pointed the finger of blame everywhere else. We have seen that on issue after issue. Worst crime rate in the nation, we have a governor who has been a career politician now 12 years in office with law enforcement authority and yet we have seen the state of Arizona deteriorate into that in time to having the worst crime rate in the nation. What's your plan to deal with that? Education, child protective services, we have a -- again a. Governor who promised to fix them and yet we continue to have major struggles in both of those areas. This governor vetoed efforts to protect gun owners' rights in times of emergency. This governor vetoed efforts to allow parents for involved in their daughter's abortion to the ability to consent to that. On issue after issue that affects the state we continue to struggle and gun I come back, the economy has improved in it's only because we ignored the economic proposals of this governor. If you believe as I do that we can do better, I would welcome your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Your closing statement.

Janet Napolitano:
Well, again, I think that the facts of my record are very strong. We have done more on illegal immigration than any admission and we are doing more every day. My opponents haven't been to the border. They haven't worked on this issue. That's one of the many differences between us. I believe in Arizona. I believe in our past. I believe in our future. Our future that is bright. A future as a growth state, a future that is going to be built on a 21st century economy. That's why we have managed the state to work on education, to improve higher education, to bring in high-tech business, to create more jobs. This economy has created 330,000 new jobs and we are on our way to creating almost 150,000 more jobs per capita income going up. Yes, we have challenges. We have challenges. But we're not going to beat those challenges and get over those obstacles by tearing each other down. I am a builder. I am a builder. I believe in Arizona. I believe I am helping to build a new state. I would like your support and your vote to help lead you in that effort going forward.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
You know, as one of the issues that we didn't get to talk about which I think is significant is healthcare and one of the simple solutions is not trying to get more money out of the working population for the nonworking population. It realistically could be to get government regulation out of healthcare. The figures always seem to come back we could lessen the cost of our healthcare 60 to 70\%. That's significant. People could afford their healthcare off the their hip pockets if that's the case. I think it's really important when we talk about the budget, we supposedly have this surplus. I'm finding it difficult to believe. As an English major, not a math major but I can count. Reality is how can you possibly have a surplus when you have outstanding liabilities? Unless they are paid in full and that would mean if we slut down government today nobody would come looking for money. Obviously not the case. There is no surplus. I think its smoke and mirrors. In education, I think we could look at the progress of the student and focus there, not on preserving the administrative process of administration. I mean the reality is what we are seeing is politicians doing what politicians do. They divide us up into groups, pit us against each other and then offer to referee. And I am pretty sick and tired of that kind of thing. And I think we need a uniter. The governor can't work with this legislature and we have heard the legislature can't work with this governor unfortunately. As a libertarian I am free look at good ideas without fear of political repercussions or reprisals. I think that I offer that to Arizona. I don't want to say at this point to say that I had political experience to me, would be the last thing I would want on my resume. That would say, to say I could thrive in a corrupt system could say only one thing about my personal character and that's not what I want to say about my character. I hope that people will take the time to find out more about all of the candidates and visit us at www.hessforgovernor.com and I promise you we would be able to give you something you seldom see in this state and that's to be able to cast a vote you will never have to apologize or excuse and you will never be called upon to defend. And to the Latinos -- [speaking to Spanish] thank you very much.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, thank you very much. I am glad you dropped the website reference because we have had that every night this week.

Barry Hess:
I saw Jan doing it.

Michael Grant:
I would have missed it. Mr. Munsil, thank you very much for joining us. And Governor Janet Napolitano, our thanks to you as well. Best of luck to awful you on the campaign trail. That concludes our clean elections debates for the candidates running for statewide offices. You can watch the debates again or you can get information about the statewide races, propositions and congressional races at our website. Here right details.

Mike Sauceda:
To get to the Horizon vote 2006 website, go to the Eight website at azpbs.org. Click on vote 2006. That will take to you our Horizon Vote 2006 home page which is loaded with features to help you as you prepare to cast your ballot. One of the most prominent features is top videos of the top videos feature; you can view past Horizon election shows. The five tabs on the upper part of the screen allow to you access all the information you need on the propositions, statewide races, the U.S. senate race, congressional races, and clean elections debates. For example, if you click on the proposition tab, you will get a list of propositions that will appear on the November ballot. Click on one of the propositions such as prop 100 and you will get links to the text of the proposed amendment, analysis by the legislative counsel, arguments for and against the measure, the official ballot language and dates of town halls on the measure. On the Horizon Vote 2006 website, you can also access online videos, RSS feeds, podcasts and Cronkite Eight Poll. A couple of other features, my ballot, a print a-form to remind you of your choices as you vote. You can also check out when to watch Horizon election coverage.

Michael Grant:
Thanks very much for joining us for these gubernatorial debates. Hope you can join us tomorrow for the Friday edition of Horizon when we will recap the week's news events. Mike Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

Education and Closing argument


Guests:
  • Governor Janet Napolitano - Democratic incumbent
  • Len Munsil - Republican candidate
  • Barry Hess - Libertarian candidate
Category:

View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight a Horizon special. With immigration topping the list of issues impacting Arizona, three people are seeking the reins of the state. Immigration just one issue with which the next governor will have to deal. There's also the education of English learners and the controversy that arise suddenly like the 9/11 memorial. A debate between the three candidates running for governor. That's next on Horizon.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Arizona's governor can be elected for up to two four-year terms as the representative of one of the three branches of government. The governor has many duties which impact your lives. The governor annually recommending to the state legislature a budget and suggestions for new laws. Chief executive also serves as commander in chief of the state's militia, appoints judges and members of state regulatory boards and commissions and state department heads. There are three people running for governor. In a few moments they will debate the issues but first here's a look at each candidate.

Mike Sauceda:
Barry Hess is 49 and resides in Phoenix. He is a currency trader. He is married and has a son. He is not running as a clean elections candidate. Len Munsil lives in Scottsdale and is 42 years old. He is an attorney. He is married and has eight children. Munsil is running with clean elections funding. Janet Napolitano is 49 years old and a resident of Phoenix. She is an attorney, is not married and has no children. She is running as a clean elections candidate.

Michael Grant:
Joining me now is libertarian candidate Barry Hess, the Republican Challenger Len Munsil and Democratic Incumbent Janet Napolitano. Tonight's debate sponsored by Arizona's citizens clean elections commission. Also sponsoring the debate is Arizona State University. Each candidate has a couple of minutes to make an opening statement. The order of presentation chosen right before the show randomly, certified by an accounting firm. And Barry, you get to open.

Barry Hess:
Here we go. You know, I'm really proud to be the only nonparticipating in the clean elections scheme of things. Because I think it's a little hypocritical and unethical to be able to tell people that I am going to help lessen their burden by taking more of their money so it makes me very proud to be the only one running a clean campaign. Without taking campaign money. It's amazing because I'm no psychic but I can tell you exactly what's going to happen here tonight. We are going to have a democrat and she is going to tell you that she knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard-earned money better than you can. The republican is going to be a little bit different. He is going to tell you he knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard earned money better than the democrat. As the libertarian, I have to tell you the truth. These are things that only you and I as responsible parents and community members can do no matter how much money we throw at it; no matter how much we wish it to be true. It still falls back to our personal responsibility. As a libertarian I am the keeper of a sacred trust between the people themselves and their servant government. And I hope to do a good job at illustrating what that means. Four years ago, we were promised out of the box thinking. We ended up with just a bigger box. We were also told that our failing schools that were ranked on some of the levels at 44th in the nation that were going to be made better. Our governor promised that she was going to make them better giving it all of her time, her talent and her abilities and I believe she did. It just wasn't good enough. We are now ranked 50th or 49th fit makes people feel better. I would like to see the argument change not to 49th or 50th but first or second. I believe very firmly education should be the center post of every single campaign at election of time these are the people who are going to be running this place when you and I are too old and gray to do anything about it and I want them 10 times smarter and more competent than I could ever hope to be. I hope tonight's debate will give you some of the ideas that will show you how getting government out of the way and respecting our constitution and your individual rights is exactly what we are all about. And I hope that you will see that very clearly. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Good evening. Your opening.

Janet Napolitano:
Thank you very much. You know, for the past three and a half years I have had the honor and privilege as serve go as your governor. When I took office Arizona was not in very good shape. We were over $1 billion in deficit. Our economy was not moving. We had just come out of the alternative fuels fiasco. Now we have over $1 billion surplus. We have invested in education. All day kindergarten, $100 million for teacher pay raises. We set aside $400 million to build new research labs at our universities and a new medical center in Downtown Phoenix. And we are just getting started. The economy that was not moving very fast three, three and a half years ago is now ranked as the number one forward momentum economy in the United States. And our per capita income the first half of 2006 went up faster than any other state in the country. So we have made great progress. But this campaign and this election is about the future. What is our future? To me there are three huge challenges that we must confront: education, Barry mentioned it. We have a lot left to do. We have focused on k-3, kindergarten, whatever but now we need math and science and higher education. Economic growth, jobs, throughout the state of Arizona, and then we must deal with the issue of growth. We are expected to double in population over the next 30 to 40 years. We need to get ahead. Transportation, water planning, open space, all of the issues that go into creating quality communities and to having that unique Arizona quality of life that we have all come to so appreciate. There's a lot of work to be done. A lot has been done but if we work together, we will make Arizona a number one state in this country. And that is my goal for all of us. I would appreciate your support and your help for another four years.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, good evening.

Len Munsil:
Good evening, Michael.

Michael Grant:
You're opening statement.

Len Munsil:
Thank you. My name is Len Munsil; I am the republican candidate for governor of Arizona. I am a native Arizonan, third generation of the state. One of the great joys I have experienced over the last eight months is traveling the state of Arizona, getting the chance to talk to tens of thousands of individual citizens in homes, at community events, learning what's on their heart, their desires, their hopes, their dreams for the state of Arizona. I am, I have been here, a lot of people came here to move to the state of Arizona because it's a great place to live. I have been here and chose to stay here and raise my family here. And I met my wife Tracy right here at Arizona State University. I am a graduate of our public school system. Of our public universities. We have been married more than 20 years and have eight children. When I look at my kids I think of the future of our state and what kind of quality of life they will have here. I believe very strongly that the core values that I represent, limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, the need to secure the border, a tough approach to crime, appointing conservative judges who will be tough on crime, and the centrality of the family, that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. I think they provide a stark contrast with the values of our current governor. We have seen that on issue after issue affecting the state of Arizona, beginning with the border, we have not secured our board. There's been no change over four years in the number of illegal crossings into our state and that affects the quality of life for all of us. We have the worst crime rate in the nation in the state of Arizona. We have other areas like education, child protective service where this governor said vote for me. Elect me and I will improve things. I will be the education governor. And yet as Barry indicated we have many problems yet to solve. I believe that we can do better in the state of Arizona. The one area we've improved going from a deficit to a surplus only happened because we ignored this governor's economic plan in this governor's economic principles. We can do better in the state of Arizona. If you agree with me, and believe that we can do better for our state, I hope to have your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Thank you. All right. Let's dive into it. I'm always fascinated in election cycles that come up that you simply cannot anticipate. The 9/11 memorial has been capturing a lot of attention in the past weeks. Mr. Munsil you have been accused of politicizing that issue. Have you politicized it?

Len Munsil:
No. I believe the people who politicized it right people who got out there and created a memorial that has a tax on America, attacks on the military, as I said at our press conference, it would be as if we built a memorial to Pearl Harbor and the focus of the memorial was Japanese interment camps. It totally represents a Michael Moore moveon.org out of touch approach to an issue like that. This was meant to honor the families and the victims of those who perished on 9/11. And it does not do that. And I have looked into the eyes of family members of 9/11 victims. I have looked into the eyes of those whose children were lost responding to what happened on 9/11. And I think as I talked about in my opening core values matter here. And we have a governor that embraced that memorial, that stood out there and said this is my commission, this is something I support. It's a great memorial. Totally missing the fact that it offends a lot of people. And I strongly disagree with that.

Michael Grant:
Don't you think bulldozing it might be a sort of an extreme --

Len Munsil:
I said there are elements of it that should be kept but if you look ate overall as a whole it's not just two or three inscriptions it's as if we want to approach teaching our children -- the governor talked about that -- for generations they will learn about 9/11 from this. What they will learn is tolerance for terrorists and the view of the world that doesn't understand we were attacked by people who killed innocent Americans and we don't, we don't need to treat the memory of the victims that way.

Michael Grant: Governor Napolitano, let me go to you. You seemed to embrace the memorial initially. Backed away from that. Said it's really a matter for the commission. Where are you now?

Janet Napolitano: No, I am embraced the memorial but we do no honor to the victims of 9/11 by injecting this into the middle of a gubernatorial campaign. The commission was independent, half appointed by me, half appointed by Governor Hull, and chaired by a firefighter. On the commission were people who had lost loved ones in the World Trade Center. People who had gone back to New York City and to Pennsylvania to clean up the wreckage of those terrible terrorist acts. And the memorial was well intentioned, and the design overall is a very, very good design. The chair of the commission has already said after the election they will take into account some of the comments made and if the memorial can be made better it will be. I was reminded when the Vietnam War Memorial was first built on the Capitol. People didn't like it. It was different. It was new. It was considered disrespectful of those who had given their lives in Vietnam. And the end result was after the political hullabaloo died down there were changes made around that memorial. And today it's most frequently visited memorial on the Capitol Mall in Washington, and a very moving place and the 9/11 Memorial on our capital lawn is as well.

Michael Grant:
Would you encourage the commission to make changes to the 9/11 Memorial similar to the ones you just mentioned for the Vietnam Memorial?

Janet Napolitano:
I encourage the commission to go at it with an open mind. There are people very different points of view at this point and to make their best judgments for what is an appropriate and what is a good memorial. But if you go to the memorial and many people who are criticizing it haven't even actually been there. You can't but be moved by the world trade center piece that is in there, by the fact there its dirt from the field in Pennsylvania in there, and by the intention and respect for the victims that the commission exhibited.

Michael Grant:
But no more guidance from the governor's office than that? Study it carefully, but I have no instructions for you?

Janet Napolitano:
Not at this time, no.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, what do you think about the 9/11 Memorial?

Barry Hess: I was kind of saddened to see it back part of this campaign. We should be talking about the monuments costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars that have football teams and baseball teams in them. But when it really comes down to the monument we have to first determine what it is. If it is there to honor innocent lives lost, then absolutely, some of the offensive statements should go. But if it's there to memorialize an event, around which there are all kinds of questions and dubious official explanations as to what actually happened, then it very much, they are well placed because there is an outrage that comes with it. Where we don't have all the facts as people. So we first have to determine what it is and then go from there. And as governor I would keep my hands off. The commission should be left to do what it will do.

Michael Grant: Let me go to immigration. Four propositions, ballot-related, governor, on the -- on November's ballot. You have vetoed two of them, forms of two of them, official English and also the expansion proposition 200. You recommend Arizona voters veto them as well?

Janet Napolitano: Well, I recommend that Arizona voters look at the immigration issue as a whole. It needs have several components to it. We need to secure the border between the points of entry. I was one of the first two governors to declare a state of emergency. The first governor to ask that the president put the National Guard on the border and pay for it. I was the first governor to set up task forces along the border on stolen vehicle theft, fraudulent I.D. and the like. And when you to go the border, if you go there now and I go there on a regular basis, it is a very different place than it was 18 months ago, a year ago, and indeed, the numbers of illegal immigrant apprehensions are steadily going down. We need that. I am pleased to see and was pleased to stand with the president yesterday to get more resources at our border but we also need comprehensive immigration reform. That's what's really going to turn the tide here, not referenda on the ballot.

Michael Grant:
So people should not vote for English only, and an expansion of proposition 200?

Janet Napolitano:
Well my vetoes speak for themselves but you know what? If the people disagree with me and they have from time to time I will respect the will of the people.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, how do you feel about official English and expansion of the benefits that illegal aliens could qualify for here in the state of Arizona?

Barry Hess:
I think the question of official English is American English but part of the enabling act that made Arizona a state in the first place and no one seems to go back to that. I think we have breached the contract if we try to add any more languages. I am for one single language, a common language in the nation. I think that's very important in terms of binding people as far as the entitlements, if you didn't pay in you shouldn't take out. What no one wants to talk about on the border issues are the effect of NAFTA where we end up dumping all kinds of produce on South America and selling it in their markets for less than they can raise it for. We put 2 million Mexican farmers out of work and of course they head for the cities to water down the labor pool. And then American companies, as part of NAFTA, close down shop here with all minimum wages and all the other nonsensical restrictions and relocate there. So that's where we shipped off a lot of jobs and then the overflow heads north. You certainly can't fault someone for trying to take care of their family. And I wouldn't. My only concern on the border realistically is to stop people from dying in the desert or be falling prey to the coyotes and those people who would represent us in a serious security threat to the physical property or persons of Americans. As far as making the entitlement programs real, we take the honey pot out off the front yard those pesky bears from across the road might stop coming around and the reality is the best way to do it is not to try to clamp down or strong arm them but to make these programs absolutely voluntary. Membership only. You don't have the card you don't get in. Doesn't matter where you are from.

Michael Grant:
English only expansion proposition 200 benefits?

Len Munsil:
I support this proposition. But I think really this speaks to the governor's leadership style. She wants to be on both sides of every issue. We see it with 9/11 where she took responsibility for the commission. She went out and said this is my commission; this is a great monument and now things go south and suddenly it's the commission's problem, move on. Let them deal with it. We see that in the same way with this issue of border security. This Governor has done nothing to make our borders more secure. All of the things that she described to you add up to a big fat zero because of the same number of people that are crossing unlawfully today as there were four years ago. So we see that repeatedly. This issue yesterday with her inviting herself to a photo op with the President of the United States on a bill that provided money for a border fence when this governor was quoted by Senator Ted Kennedy on the floor of the senate with her famous statement that you build a 50-foot wall and I will show a 51-foot ladder she's mocked the very idea of the fence that the president was there to sign a bill for. And that's not leadership. Leadership is looking at the issue of border security and saying, what can I do as governor of Arizona to protect the lives and property of the citizens of our state? Because that's an issue that affects all of us. It certainly affects the people who live near the border. It affects people who are dealing with the educators I have talked to who are dealing with kids who are plopped in their classroom who don't speak English a and at the same time you have doctors -- I talked to doctors who are going to leave the state because they are being sued by illegal aliens they treated for free. People want a governor highways doing more than point the finger at Washington.

Michael Grant:
Have you changed your position on --

Janet Napolitano:
No. Let me give the people of Arizona the facts. First of all, I was have there at the invitation of the President. Why? Because I have been working very closely with the administration on securing our border between the ports of entry. And I believe, as he does, that we must have comprehensive immigration reform. And that gets to the quote about the wall. Yes, I said, you show me a 50-foot wall I will show a 51-foot ladder if all you do is a wall. But if you have fencing and radar and cameras, and manpower all of which are pouring into the Arizona Sonora border right now and you couple that with the temporary worker program and comprehensive immigration reform, then, you have got a real immigration plan that can work. I have been relentless on those issues for the last four years and contrary to what's been stated the fact really are that the border is much safer now. It is more secure. We have more to do. We are going to keep ate every day put one foot in front of the other.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you did, though, refer about three years ago to use of the National Guard on the border as, I think pretty close quote was, an extreme measure. And then it was in your state of the state address earlier this year. Why the shift?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, when the initial proposal was made to put the guard at the border it was for the state of Arizona taxpayers to have to pay for it. And in my view, we must keep pounding on Washington, D.C. because we never get reimbursed from Washington, D.C. once we take the lead that's money out of our treasury. I want to keep pounding on Washington, D.C. second thing was three years ago we were being given assurances about the thousands of new border patrol agents that would be coming to the Arizona Sonora border. In point of fact it's taken much longer than anybody anticipated to get those agents hired, trained, and deployed to do border. So the plan that was developed and the plan that is embodied right now at the border is to send the guard down to take, offload responsibilities from the border patrol so they can focus exclusively on interdicting illegal immigrants and that's why the traffic has gone down.

Michael Grant:
I will cycle that. We will spend some time on this. But Mr. Hess, what about use the guard on the border? There are a lot of people who suggest that the National Guard is a valuable asset. Can do a great number of things very well. But border security may not necessarily be one of its forts or one of its best uses.

Barry Hess:
I think I tend to agree. It's probably not its best use. But it might be a good stop gap. I think realistically where the state of Arizona comes in it should be under the Department of Public Safety. But I would also encourage and shut down the border instantly. I am on the one who put a time limit on it. Give congress 60 days after an inauguration. If they don't come up with the comprehensive program that's going to work, then, I would take sovereignty rights and turn it over to the legislature for 60 days.

Michael Grant:
How do you shut down the border immediately?

Barry Hess:
With manpower is the only thing we have got now. I happen to agree with the technologies that we have. We can intercept and interdict before anybody gets to the border. That's more reasonable than trying to -- it sure is. But we have also got those rampaging Canadians on the other end of the country to worry about. The reality is we have got to shut it down. We have the known roots down because those inaccessible areas are inaccessible to the bad guys as well.

Michael Grant:
Incidentally, let's stick with the Arizona Mexico border. We can --

Len Munsil:
Don't need to go north just yet.

Michael Grant:
Later. The appropriate role of the National Guard, I get the impression that you actually want it there with guns and weaponry.

Len Munsil:
I would want to work with the Federal Government to allow us to supplement their efforts to secure the border. The problem with the governor's response on this issue, she says that, oh, yeah, I was, I didn't think a fence alone was enough but she vetoed the other thing she was talking about. She vetoed the use of radar technology at the border. She vetoed sending the Arizona National Guard to the border and waited back and waited for the Federal Government to finally do something. The lives of our citizens are affected. And you know, it's not enough, it's not just that she's failed to secure the border. After four years in office. It's that she's rolled out welcome mat and just like she doesn't want us to remember that a few years ago she said it was an extreme measure to put the guard at the border she is now claiming it was her plan. She doesn't want people to remember the main thing she said about immigration, early in her term, is we ought to provide driver's licenses for illegal aliens and vetoed a subsidized in state tuition for people here unlawfully. Those are the facts. That is the report of this governor. And in an election year, hour tune has changed quite a bit.

Janet Napolitano:
Again, let's go back to the actual facts. My opponents haven't actually worked on the border. They have no immigration traffic record. They have done nothing. And so they are new to this issue. But what I have constantly said is the federal government needs to take the leading road here, the lead in the war because it's a federal border and I say that as a former united states attorney who supervised the prosecution of over 6,000 illegal immigration cases.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you have said that but I think a lot of Arizonans, not disagreeing with that point, though, say, hold it, we have had a serious failure federally and it's still our state.

Janet Napolitano:
And that is why we have put fraudulent I.D. task forces down there, stolen vehicle task forces down there, gang task forces. We have increased the size of the Department of Public Safety by 62 percent in three years to help us deal with border and border-related crime. So we have been working steadily. And every day, to make sure that we are securing that border between the ports of entry. But you are not going to just do it in 60 days, as Barry suggests, and you know, the entity, the person who will oppose Len the most on arming the National Guard at the border will be the president of the United States. Because he believes, and I support him, that he has struck the appropriate balance for what the guard needs to do down there, to free up the border patrols, to actually provide the law enforcement at the border.

Michael Grant: All right. Listen, I need to shift to some other subjects. Let's go to tax questions, infrastructure questions, some related subjects there. Mr. Hess, what's your overall tax strategy? Elected governor, resist the notion here to say no taxes whatsoever. Give me an idea where Barry Hess is on overall tax policy.

Barry Hess:
Overall tax policy is changing them immediately to conform them to the constitutional requirements. I believe the single most self destructive policy to hit this country was the I am position of a an income tax. No one can find authority for something that didn't exist before 1913 and eight Supreme Court cases say it doesn't exist after the fact and not even because of the rogue agents who routinely destroy marriages and businesses. My concern goes to the heart of the a matter, the family values. I think for the first time in American history it required a two paycheck family to support a home and it took our moms out of the homes and left our latch key children to the mercy of Jerry Springer to teach them morals and values. I think it's exhibiting itself in our young people today. So I want to work toward eliminating income tax and what we will find is that any time these politicians want to attract a news business, what do they do? They offer them an income tax break. I want to offer that to everyone. At the same time that is country founded own one single premise and that's respect for private property ownership rights. I want to eliminate the property property tax altogether. In the interim, of course, offering vouchers or anything to offset, which forces more money into the legislative budget so it forces the legislature to prioritize. Right 94 it's just spends, spend, spend, spend, spend, add, add, add, add, add. I would like them to go back and look at all old programs in order to add new programs.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, off 10-year plan to phase out income tax. Will it work? How do you replace those revenues?

Len Munsil:
I think the key thing, Michael, is to have continual pressure to reduce taxes to spur economic activity in our state. I do believe in tax cuts. And I do support moving in the direction of eliminating the state income tax. We are going to continue to see economic growth in our state. You have states like Florida, New Hampshire, many states that don't have a state income tax and I would like to move in the direction of reducing tax, spurring our economy, continue to have economic growth. That is, again, a clear contrast between me and the incumbent governor because she has fought every single tax decrease and only relented as part of negotiations. She said that the tax cuts proposed this last year were a raid on Arizona's future. And it presents a different philosophy, a different mindset. The tax cuts were not as great as they should have been well budget surplus we had but her approach is to figure identity how to spend that money rather than looking at returning it to the taxpayers that were overpaid.

Michael Grant:
How do you replace revenues?

Len Munsil:
Overtime we will see economic growth continue and you will see an increase come in with sales tax. You look at where we have been we had an 8\% top rate a few years ago. And we are down to 5\% and it's going to decrease this next year, thanks to pressure from the legislature, not from this governor. And yet our revenues have accelerated dramatically. So we need to continue to have downward pressure and reduce taxes and that is what will attract businesses to the state of Arizona.

Michael Grant:
You did resist overall tax cuts. And you offered, instead, affirmatively $100 million of more targeted tax cuts. Is that Janet Napolitano's tax philosophy?

Janet Napolitano:
No. But I think what you need to do when you are the governor is you have to balance the budget. I have presented a balanced budget every year to the legislature. And to do that you have to take, think not only of your revenues but of your spending. You know, what somebody who says I want to eliminate the income tax is not tilling you and your question suggests it is, well, you tell me what classrooms are going to be 40 pupils are more because k-12 spending is the biggest single part of your budget. Tell me which prisoners are letting out of prisons. Tell me what people you are kicking out of access. Those are the big elements of a billing budget. If you don't properly gauge revenues and spending in a growing state as ours is you end up with what I inherited when I came in office, a $1.3 billion deficit. I believe in managing the state finances so we keep the tax rate low and competitive, which it is, our per capita spending is the lowest among any state in the country. So we have got things in balance. But we also need to invest. We also need to invest.

Michael Grant:
Let me go back to one of the points Mr. Hess made on opening statement because I think it's well taken. If I recall correctly about four years ago to the day, perhaps, there were four of us gathered around this -- we were, in fact --

Janet Napolitano:
A quadrennial event.

Michael Grant:
We were facing a $1.3 billion deficit. And credits were the great evil. Everyone was, well, couple of people, including yourself were saying we've got to examine the tax code. Then you come back this year with a tax credit package.

Janet Napolitano:
Right. We did look at those things. But, you know, we signed, I proposed for example a sales tax holiday for school supplies. A lot of states have it. It's wonderfully successful. Legislature didn't like that. They proposed something else. That's the give and take that goes on between a legislature governor a and a legislature. When we negotiated the budget this year by the time we got around to negotiating it the revenues in our state had gone way higher than any projections before hand. So we had a lot more flex bill too toe do a lot more different things.

Michael Grant:
Philosophically now do you think that's the better approach? Targeted tax credits to encourage business execute whatever government think is good growth?

Janet Napolitano:
The tax credits that I think are the most beneficial are those that help stimulate jobs and job creation. The sales factor tax, for example, when which I signed last year which resulted in Intel making a decision to build its new domestic fab right here in Arizona. Business property tax reduction. Tax credits for things like solar energy, some of the things that we want to help stimulate in our economy. And they need to be tied to jobs, quality of life. This year, because the revenues were so high, we were able to accompany those kinds of tax relieve measures with income tax cuts. But again, you can't talk about taxes in isolation. And somebody who has not governed doesn't fully appreciate all the demands that are made to educate, to incarcerate, and to provide health care.

Michael Grant:
Let's go to the tax credit plan. A material point is made. I keep hearing radio ads about I think it's a $2 billion business fund in Michigan. Arizona is a wonderful place to live. But we got a lot of competition. And a fair case can be made that tax credits are not the great evil to pull in the right kind of people.

Len Munsil:
I don't think the government should be in the business of picking and choosing winners in the economy, winners and losers. What we to be doing is providing a level playing field. That is what would attract the state of Arizona. When I hear the governor says we did this and we did that with respect to the economic turn around in Arizona, I can't help but think Babe Ruth and I hit 714 home runs in the major leagues. She came into the deficit of this circumstance. She analyzed the economic circumstances and as you indicated a proposed a number of things, put together a commission that proposed raising taxes on a lot of different areas of sales, and the result of that was the legislature said it's dead on arrival. We had federal tax cuts take affect. We have a growing state and the revenues began to come in and now she wants us to forget that her solving our problems was completely wrong and we had this economic policy without any of other policies being implemented. She did oppose even the tax cuts she's taking credit for now.

Michael Grant:
Recognizing you're libertarian, but taking the world as you find it, sometimes do you have to dangle a carrot to get somebody to come here?

Barry Hess:
On the way there. I think the Governor asked a good question about which classrooms would you shut down? I would like to see us move away from the government system completely. Arizona is just one of those unique states, seven or eight, I think, that have a state constitutional provision to provide for government education. It reads that free or nearly free public instruction. I don't have people having trouble investing to their being classes with home schooling. I'm for home schooling, private school, charter school, government schooling, a competitive mix is the only way we will get a decent education here for Arizona. But when she mentioned which prisoners, 60 to 70\% of the prisoners that we are incarcerating are people who smoked a joint or people who are there just for possession of drugs that they used themselves. I think that would be a good place to get those people off the public dole and out into the work force again.

Michael Grant:
Let me go to the related question of infrastructure improvement. We are expecting 8 million more people in the next 20, 30 years. Infrastructure is being strained, particularly the road system. Maricopa County voters have taxed themselves twice to try to support it. We are growing out, though, and a lot of areas like Pinal County don't have the sales tax base to do that. And we need take a serious look at some sort of state mechanism to start doing things like widening I-17, improving the roads in a growing Phoenix metropolitan area and a number of other needs?

Len Munsil:
Michael, we have a lot of infrastructure problems in our state related to growth that have not been addressed adequately. As a native Arizonan, I have watched in amazement as time after time we build a freeway and it's immediately full, immediately overtaxed with population that we have. We have done a very poor job as a state. In long-term planning looking ahead to trying to plan for all of the people who are coming here. But one of the things that we need to remember when we talk about infrastructure needs of our state, and this affects a lot of other areas including education, is that our inability of our failure to secure the border affects the people of Arizona. It affects our quality of life. And it affects the infrastructure needs in our state. We have got to begin with securing the border. It's going to affect many other aspects of our life.

Michael Grant:
Dedicated tax. State line to support, for example, road infrastructure improvements?

Janet Napolitano: I don't know if that's the way to go, Michael. I think, though, that time stuck in traffic is a time tax. And for people who are traveling to and fro work or trying to pick up the kids from school or what have you, their time is almost their most precious commodity. We are working to see what we can do to accelerate current road. Projects already on the books. We were able this year to put an additional $307 million into transportation to accelerate projects on I-10, I-17. In the valley but also throughout the rest of Arizona because there are transportation issues there as well.

Michael Grant:
Should that be a consistent priority?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I think it's going to have to be. But I think it has to be done in congestion with where our projected population growth is going to be and correlating that with issues about water, water planning, we have been doing a lot on that but we will need water infrastructure. We are going to need to be able to move water from one part of the state to the other as we move along. We need to be talking about the management of public lands and preservation of open space because many of us choose to live in Arizona because we want access to open space. We have to take that into account. We need to be planning where we are well George Gascon to build our schoolings, where our hospitals and emergency rooms are going to be located. That all goes into really thinking long term about the future of Arizona. Where is Arizona going to be in the year 2040? 2050? How do we get there?

Michael Grant:
One place we are going to be we will have a lot more people. Do we focus more state level resources on what I think up to this point in time is often been thought of as local infrastructure issues?

Barry Hess:
Local infrastructures that are combined ends up being the whole statewide but there is a place I think for statewide planning to make sure that people can get from one area of Arizona without telling that's where we wanted to you grow. It will be filled if we will just get government out of the way so that individuals or companies want to build private roads, it's been very successful in California in particular and highly urban congested areas. The private roads rights most successful. And I wouldn't have any problem with encouraging that and if they want to make a profit ought it so much the better.

Michael Grant:
Let me shift to education and, unfortunately, going to have to get into the subject of school safety. It's been a terrible couple of weeks. Obviously, schools and school districts maintain emergency response plans. There's a lot of local options in them as to what additional security measures they take. Metal detectors, police on campus, those kinds of things. Nobody wants to go here but the lessons unfortunately we have learned in the past couple of weeks, do we start, need to start mandating more school security measures for our schools and school districts?

Janet Napolitano:
No. I thought about that. And I still think that that needs to be considered within the context of an individual school or school district and community. Because Arizona is such a, such a diverse place. When I was attorney general, we crafted a school safety manual for schools. And one of the things that I have asked and talked to the Attorney General about yesterday and have sent some letters out, lets make sure those have been kept updated. Let's make sure people are making sure our children are safe in schools because one thing a parent needs to have assures rance of when the child goes to school the child will be safe. That process needs and is under way as we speak.

Michael Grant:
I certainly appreciate the local control aspect but I think probably people in rural Pennsylvania thought they were safe as well.

Janet Napolitano:
Yeah. And so you want to say, well, what is it that exactly you would mandate statewide? Would you mandate --

Michael Grant:
Metal detectors?

Janet Napolitano:
Yes. But in schools that have metal detectors what you find talking to people there you have a metal detector they find a way around it. So it's really focusing people, leadership. Our teachers, our principal, our parents, our community leaders, lieutenants make sure, let's wrap our arms around our schools make sure they are safe as possible.

Michael Grant:
School safety.

Len Munsil:
Yeah, obviously, it's tragic that we have to even think about those issues. And it speaks to where we are as a culture compared to 40 or 50 years ago that we have people coming in on a regular basis and committing these acts of violence. I do think when you look at issues like metal detectors we have them in our federal buildings. We have them at the airport and the State Capital where the Governor works. I think that's something we need to look at in our public schools. No one should have any fear or concern sending their students to a public school that there's an act of violence is going to come upon them there. I think that's something we need to look at.

Michael Grant:
What do you think, Mr. Hess?

Barry Hess:
I think we have created all kinds of disarmed victim zones and we have seen it here. The one in Pennsylvania, because of the culture, was very unique. Because that's generally a very pacifist group and it couldn't be foreseen. That's one of the hazards of day to day life. Government can't make you safe. It's like the police force. They become crime scene protectors. They are always there after someone is harmed. Of course, I am going to advocate making sure that the second amendment is always respected so that people can protect themselves and their families but also if they choose not a carry a firearm, the bad guys don't know who it is it tends to discourage them. They will either go away by discouragement or demise. The last one in the spat of them when we had all the school shootings three or four or five together, it was interceded quite accidentally where an armed individual was able to stop and it they stopped until this one. And I think it's really important if we get back to people understanding that person over there across the table may well, able to defend themselves, the bad guys go away. They always say you don't find a renegade shooter on a firing range. There's a reason for that.

Michael Grant:
English language learning, Federal Court is going to take that issue back up in January, take a look at what Arizona has done in the past six years, whether or not we are spending adequate resource on English language learners. What's Len Munsil's position on where the court should go?

Len Munsil:
First of all, I have to point out again like many, many other issues if with we had done a better job securing our border that's another area where citizens of Arizona are paying the consequences. We don't turn people away at schoolhouse door so once they are here when we have not done our job to security border we end up paying a lot of additional costs. I thought the proposal that the legislature had was legitimate. I can't believe that we would ski to an unelected federal judge the power to determine how we are going to solve problems like that. It's one of the issues I have been active in over the years opposing activist judges imposing their will on the people using some flimsy constitutional excuse. That not only did that happen, Michael, in this case but our Governor and our Attorney General went along with it. And we are happy to have the federal judge making decisions for the people of Arizona because she didn't like the decisions that the legislature -- she didn't want to negotiate with the legislature anymore. She wanted the federal judge to make the decision. Fortunately that decision was overturned by the Ninth Circuit. We will have another crack at it.

Michael Grant:
Governor, Ninth Circuit has said state Arizona of ought to be given a shot at demonstrating that a number of things it's done in the past six years or so, the dedicated sales tax for teacher's salaries increased revenues from state land, the students first building program are enough down there. You have taken a strong position they are not enough. Is that the position you will anyway January?

Janet Napolitano:
Here is what needs to happen. We have a million children in school in Arizona. About 160,000 don't speak English as their first language. They need to learn how to read, write, and speak in English as quickly as possible. To be academically competitive to be economically successful. We need to do whatever it takes to get that done. Yes, we are in court. I wish we were not in court. And Len wasn't at the capital. He wasn't party to what was going on. But we were just at an impasse and when you are at an impasse and the issue here are we complying with a federal law, a federal law, that's what federal courts are there to decide. We had asked the federal court earlier to go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. He decided not to. What the Ninth Circuit basically said was let's go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. That's benefit scheduled. But I hope when we start the next session, we can renew this dialogue. People have been meeting, well meaning people have been meeting about this during the interim and if we can get this out of court and back to the capital and get it done and get it done in time for the children who are now in school, that to me would be a satisfactory result.

Michael Grant:
There are some statistics from the Nogales School District that indicate that they have made a remarkable progress.

Janet Napolitano:
And there are statistics from --

Michael Grant:
Of the current funding scheme.

Janet Napolitano:
There are old statistics but there are statistics from other districts and recognize this is the whole state not just Nogales that would say otherwise. Does and that's why we now have a committee that's meeting. I have made several appointments to it. The legislature made several appointments to it. The superintendent made several appointments to it. I have asked them to take an objective look at the actual data. What does it cost in the year 2006 to make sure that a youngster learns to read, write, and speak in English? That at ought to be our criterion.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
I think it's really interesting because here we have the state getting involved in something it has no business getting involved in. I have had the opportunity to travel around world and I would never once been in a country where they provided me with French language learning or German language learning or anything else and neither should we. That should fall to those people who recognize the need. And they do recognize the need and let them band together and form their own way, their own method of learning English. Because that's when the parents start putting emphasis on it and parts of our problem in education is we have got a whole generation people my age with kids who don't appreciate education because they're looking for mommy government to provide it. When they know that it's a source of pride or something they can develop on their own, they learn better. Everyone knows that if you want to learn something, you learn far better than trying to cram it into their head. And it just seems to be ludicrous to have the state involved in alternate languages and not including all 144 languages in the country. At the very least. It just seems silly for us to even be involved in going into the Spanish language.

Michael Grant:
Only got about a minute and a half total time left. Give me 30 seconds on this. Corporate tuition tax credits for private scholarship funds. Do you support?

Barry Hess:
Absolutely. Have to support it. That's one of the good areas because what I would like to see is our school system based upon a competency exam so that you, work in your butt off, you get straight A's, I'm slacking we get the same diploma. This somehow seems inequitable. I would like to see an exterior 10 see exam that stayed voluntary so parents could zero in exactly where their kids needed the help and at some point employers would say, we want you because you are competent in these areas. That's when they would form corporate schools.

Len Munsil:
I am a strong supporter of educational choice. I believe we have to do a lot of things to strengthen public education in the state of Arizona including merit pay for teachers who are doing the best job of educating our kids but I fought to defend those tax credits in the Arizona Supreme Court and I believe very strongly that school choice and parental options in education should not be the exclusive province of the wealthy.

Michael Grant:
You oppose them. Why?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I agreed to some too business tax credits. I have a pilot to see if they do make a difference but we have lots of choice within the public schools in Arizona. We have open enrollment. We have charter schools. We have the most charter schools of any state in the country. The plain fact of the matter is as the overwhelming majority of our children are going to be he would indicated in the public schools. And we need to make sure that these public schools are as good as they can be. And that the children graduating from those public schools are ready to go on to community college, to university, or to mier technical education because that's when what our 21st century economy is going to demand.

Michael Grant:
Ok. Well, the clock is demanding that we close this phase of the debate. And we are out of time for this debate between the candidates running for governor. Each candidate will now have two minutes for a closing statement, once again, under certified circumstances the order of presentation was chosen randomly, I am checking my notes, Mr. Munsil, you go first.

Len Munsil:
Yes. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate the chance to be with you and talk about the issues important to our state. You know, when I got into the race for governor somebody meet me and my family and they said with eight kids if you can govern a family of 10, you can -- governor of the state of Arizona ought to be a piece of cake. Well, I don't go that far. There's a lot of issues that face us as a people. But I think the values that I represent, the core values that I represent of limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, of the need to secure the border of the state of Arizona, a tough approach to crime, appointing judges who are tough on crime and the centrality of the family, I believe strongly that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. And that's what I would represent. By contrast, I think we have a governor who has demonstrated herself to be outside the mainstream of the people of Arizona. A record breaking number of vetoes in one term of office. A failure to adequately address border security in the state of Arizona. No one questions it's the federal government's responsibility. But when they don't do their job, and the lives of Arizonans are affected, the question is what does the governor do? And we have had a governor who has pointed the finger of blame everywhere else. We have seen that on issue after issue. Worst crime rate in the nation, we have a governor who has been a career politician now 12 years in office with law enforcement authority and yet we have seen the state of Arizona deteriorate into that in time to having the worst crime rate in the nation. What's your plan to deal with that? Education, child protective services, we have a -- again a. Governor who promised to fix them and yet we continue to have major struggles in both of those areas. This governor vetoed efforts to protect gun owners' rights in times of emergency. This governor vetoed efforts to allow parents for involved in their daughter's abortion to the ability to consent to that. On issue after issue that affects the state we continue to struggle and gun I come back, the economy has improved in it's only because we ignored the economic proposals of this governor. If you believe as I do that we can do better, I would welcome your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Your closing statement.

Janet Napolitano:
Well, again, I think that the facts of my record are very strong. We have done more on illegal immigration than any admission and we are doing more every day. My opponents haven't been to the border. They haven't worked on this issue. That's one of the many differences between us. I believe in Arizona. I believe in our past. I believe in our future. Our future that is bright. A future as a growth state, a future that is going to be built on a 21st century economy. That's why we have managed the state to work on education, to improve higher education, to bring in high-tech business, to create more jobs. This economy has created 330,000 new jobs and we are on our way to creating almost 150,000 more jobs per capita income going up. Yes, we have challenges. We have challenges. But we're not going to beat those challenges and get over those obstacles by tearing each other down. I am a builder. I am a builder. I believe in Arizona. I believe I am helping to build a new state. I would like your support and your vote to help lead you in that effort going forward.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
You know, as one of the issues that we didn't get to talk about which I think is significant is healthcare and one of the simple solutions is not trying to get more money out of the working population for the nonworking population. It realistically could be to get government regulation out of healthcare. The figures always seem to come back we could lessen the cost of our healthcare 60 to 70\%. That's significant. People could afford their healthcare off the their hip pockets if that's the case. I think it's really important when we talk about the budget, we supposedly have this surplus. I'm finding it difficult to believe. As an English major, not a math major but I can count. Reality is how can you possibly have a surplus when you have outstanding liabilities? Unless they are paid in full and that would mean if we slut down government today nobody would come looking for money. Obviously not the case. There is no surplus. I think its smoke and mirrors. In education, I think we could look at the progress of the student and focus there, not on preserving the administrative process of administration. I mean the reality is what we are seeing is politicians doing what politicians do. They divide us up into groups, pit us against each other and then offer to referee. And I am pretty sick and tired of that kind of thing. And I think we need a uniter. The governor can't work with this legislature and we have heard the legislature can't work with this governor unfortunately. As a libertarian I am free look at good ideas without fear of political repercussions or reprisals. I think that I offer that to Arizona. I don't want to say at this point to say that I had political experience to me, would be the last thing I would want on my resume. That would say, to say I could thrive in a corrupt system could say only one thing about my personal character and that's not what I want to say about my character. I hope that people will take the time to find out more about all of the candidates and visit us at www.hessforgovernor.com and I promise you we would be able to give you something you seldom see in this state and that's to be able to cast a vote you will never have to apologize or excuse and you will never be called upon to defend. And to the Latinos -- [speaking to Spanish] thank you very much.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, thank you very much. I am glad you dropped the website reference because we have had that every night this week.

Barry Hess:
I saw Jan doing it.

Michael Grant:
I would have missed it. Mr. Munsil, thank you very much for joining us. And Governor Janet Napolitano, our thanks to you as well. Best of luck to awful you on the campaign trail. That concludes our clean elections debates for the candidates running for statewide offices. You can watch the debates again or you can get information about the statewide races, propositions and congressional races at our website. Here right details.

Mike Sauceda:
To get to the Horizon vote 2006 website, go to the Eight website at azpbs.org. Click on vote 2006. That will take to you our Horizon Vote 2006 home page which is loaded with features to help you as you prepare to cast your ballot. One of the most prominent features is top videos of the top videos feature; you can view past Horizon election shows. The five tabs on the upper part of the screen allow to you access all the information you need on the propositions, statewide races, the U.S. senate race, congressional races, and clean elections debates. For example, if you click on the proposition tab, you will get a list of propositions that will appear on the November ballot. Click on one of the propositions such as prop 100 and you will get links to the text of the proposed amendment, analysis by the legislative counsel, arguments for and against the measure, the official ballot language and dates of town halls on the measure. On the Horizon Vote 2006 website, you can also access online videos, RSS feeds, podcasts and Cronkite Eight Poll. A couple of other features, my ballot, a print a-form to remind you of your choices as you vote. You can also check out when to watch Horizon election coverage.

Michael Grant:
Thanks very much for joining us for these gubernatorial debates. Hope you can join us tomorrow for the Friday edition of Horizon when we will recap the week's news events. Mike Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

Governor Debate


  • Democratic incumbent Janet Napolitano, Republican Len Munsil and Libertarian Barry Hess debate our state’s critical issues.
Guests:
  • Governor Janet Napolitano - Democratic incumbent
  • Len Munsil - Republican candidate
  • Barry Hess - Libertarian candidate
Category: Elections

View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight a Horizon special. With immigration topping the list of issues impacting Arizona, three people are seeking the reins of the state. Immigration just one issue with which the next governor will have to deal. There's also the education of English learners and the controversy that arise suddenly like the 9/11 memorial. A debate between the three candidates running for governor. That's next on Horizon.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Arizona's governor can be elected for up to two four-year terms as the representative of one of the three branches of government. The governor has many duties which impact your lives. The governor annually recommending to the state legislature a budget and suggestions for new laws. Chief executive also serves as commander in chief of the state's militia, appoints judges and members of state regulatory boards and commissions and state department heads. There are three people running for governor. In a few moments they will debate the issues but first here's a look at each candidate.

Mike Sauceda:
Barry Hess is 49 and resides in Phoenix. He is a currency trader. He is married and has a son. He is not running as a clean elections candidate. Len Munsil lives in Scottsdale and is 42 years old. He is an attorney. He is married and has eight children. Munsil is running with clean elections funding. Janet Napolitano is 49 years old and a resident of Phoenix. She is an attorney, is not married and has no children. She is running as a clean elections candidate.

Michael Grant:
Joining me now is libertarian candidate Barry Hess, the Republican Challenger Len Munsil and Democratic Incumbent Janet Napolitano. Tonight's debate sponsored by Arizona's citizens clean elections commission. Also sponsoring the debate is Arizona State University. Each candidate has a couple of minutes to make an opening statement. The order of presentation chosen right before the show randomly, certified by an accounting firm. And Barry, you get to open.

Barry Hess:
Here we go. You know, I'm really proud to be the only nonparticipating in the clean elections scheme of things. Because I think it's a little hypocritical and unethical to be able to tell people that I am going to help lessen their burden by taking more of their money so it makes me very proud to be the only one running a clean campaign. Without taking campaign money. It's amazing because I'm no psychic but I can tell you exactly what's going to happen here tonight. We are going to have a democrat and she is going to tell you that she knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard-earned money better than you can. The republican is going to be a little bit different. He is going to tell you he knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard earned money better than the democrat. As the libertarian, I have to tell you the truth. These are things that only you and I as responsible parents and community members can do no matter how much money we throw at it; no matter how much we wish it to be true. It still falls back to our personal responsibility. As a libertarian I am the keeper of a sacred trust between the people themselves and their servant government. And I hope to do a good job at illustrating what that means. Four years ago, we were promised out of the box thinking. We ended up with just a bigger box. We were also told that our failing schools that were ranked on some of the levels at 44th in the nation that were going to be made better. Our governor promised that she was going to make them better giving it all of her time, her talent and her abilities and I believe she did. It just wasn't good enough. We are now ranked 50th or 49th fit makes people feel better. I would like to see the argument change not to 49th or 50th but first or second. I believe very firmly education should be the center post of every single campaign at election of time these are the people who are going to be running this place when you and I are too old and gray to do anything about it and I want them 10 times smarter and more competent than I could ever hope to be. I hope tonight's debate will give you some of the ideas that will show you how getting government out of the way and respecting our constitution and your individual rights is exactly what we are all about. And I hope that you will see that very clearly. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Good evening. Your opening.

Janet Napolitano:
Thank you very much. You know, for the past three and a half years I have had the honor and privilege as serve go as your governor. When I took office Arizona was not in very good shape. We were over $1 billion in deficit. Our economy was not moving. We had just come out of the alternative fuels fiasco. Now we have over $1 billion surplus. We have invested in education. All day kindergarten, $100 million for teacher pay raises. We set aside $400 million to build new research labs at our universities and a new medical center in Downtown Phoenix. And we are just getting started. The economy that was not moving very fast three, three and a half years ago is now ranked as the number one forward momentum economy in the United States. And our per capita income the first half of 2006 went up faster than any other state in the country. So we have made great progress. But this campaign and this election is about the future. What is our future? To me there are three huge challenges that we must confront: education, Barry mentioned it. We have a lot left to do. We have focused on k-3, kindergarten, whatever but now we need math and science and higher education. Economic growth, jobs, throughout the state of Arizona, and then we must deal with the issue of growth. We are expected to double in population over the next 30 to 40 years. We need to get ahead. Transportation, water planning, open space, all of the issues that go into creating quality communities and to having that unique Arizona quality of life that we have all come to so appreciate. There's a lot of work to be done. A lot has been done but if we work together, we will make Arizona a number one state in this country. And that is my goal for all of us. I would appreciate your support and your help for another four years.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, good evening.

Len Munsil:
Good evening, Michael.

Michael Grant:
You're opening statement.

Len Munsil:
Thank you. My name is Len Munsil; I am the republican candidate for governor of Arizona. I am a native Arizonan, third generation of the state. One of the great joys I have experienced over the last eight months is traveling the state of Arizona, getting the chance to talk to tens of thousands of individual citizens in homes, at community events, learning what's on their heart, their desires, their hopes, their dreams for the state of Arizona. I am, I have been here, a lot of people came here to move to the state of Arizona because it's a great place to live. I have been here and chose to stay here and raise my family here. And I met my wife Tracy right here at Arizona State University. I am a graduate of our public school system. Of our public universities. We have been married more than 20 years and have eight children. When I look at my kids I think of the future of our state and what kind of quality of life they will have here. I believe very strongly that the core values that I represent, limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, the need to secure the border, a tough approach to crime, appointing conservative judges who will be tough on crime, and the centrality of the family, that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. I think they provide a stark contrast with the values of our current governor. We have seen that on issue after issue affecting the state of Arizona, beginning with the border, we have not secured our board. There's been no change over four years in the number of illegal crossings into our state and that affects the quality of life for all of us. We have the worst crime rate in the nation in the state of Arizona. We have other areas like education, child protective service where this governor said vote for me. Elect me and I will improve things. I will be the education governor. And yet as Barry indicated we have many problems yet to solve. I believe that we can do better in the state of Arizona. The one area we've improved going from a deficit to a surplus only happened because we ignored this governor's economic plan in this governor's economic principles. We can do better in the state of Arizona. If you agree with me, and believe that we can do better for our state, I hope to have your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Thank you. All right. Let's dive into it. I'm always fascinated in election cycles that come up that you simply cannot anticipate. The 9/11 memorial has been capturing a lot of attention in the past weeks. Mr. Munsil you have been accused of politicizing that issue. Have you politicized it?

Len Munsil:
No. I believe the people who politicized it right people who got out there and created a memorial that has a tax on America, attacks on the military, as I said at our press conference, it would be as if we built a memorial to Pearl Harbor and the focus of the memorial was Japanese interment camps. It totally represents a Michael Moore moveon.org out of touch approach to an issue like that. This was meant to honor the families and the victims of those who perished on 9/11. And it does not do that. And I have looked into the eyes of family members of 9/11 victims. I have looked into the eyes of those whose children were lost responding to what happened on 9/11. And I think as I talked about in my opening core values matter here. And we have a governor that embraced that memorial, that stood out there and said this is my commission, this is something I support. It's a great memorial. Totally missing the fact that it offends a lot of people. And I strongly disagree with that.

Michael Grant:
Don't you think bulldozing it might be a sort of an extreme --

Len Munsil:
I said there are elements of it that should be kept but if you look ate overall as a whole it's not just two or three inscriptions it's as if we want to approach teaching our children -- the governor talked about that -- for generations they will learn about 9/11 from this. What they will learn is tolerance for terrorists and the view of the world that doesn't understand we were attacked by people who killed innocent Americans and we don't, we don't need to treat the memory of the victims that way.

Michael Grant: Governor Napolitano, let me go to you. You seemed to embrace the memorial initially. Backed away from that. Said it's really a matter for the commission. Where are you now?

Janet Napolitano: No, I am embraced the memorial but we do no honor to the victims of 9/11 by injecting this into the middle of a gubernatorial campaign. The commission was independent, half appointed by me, half appointed by Governor Hull, and chaired by a firefighter. On the commission were people who had lost loved ones in the World Trade Center. People who had gone back to New York City and to Pennsylvania to clean up the wreckage of those terrible terrorist acts. And the memorial was well intentioned, and the design overall is a very, very good design. The chair of the commission has already said after the election they will take into account some of the comments made and if the memorial can be made better it will be. I was reminded when the Vietnam War Memorial was first built on the Capitol. People didn't like it. It was different. It was new. It was considered disrespectful of those who had given their lives in Vietnam. And the end result was after the political hullabaloo died down there were changes made around that memorial. And today it's most frequently visited memorial on the Capitol Mall in Washington, and a very moving place and the 9/11 Memorial on our capital lawn is as well.

Michael Grant:
Would you encourage the commission to make changes to the 9/11 Memorial similar to the ones you just mentioned for the Vietnam Memorial?

Janet Napolitano:
I encourage the commission to go at it with an open mind. There are people very different points of view at this point and to make their best judgments for what is an appropriate and what is a good memorial. But if you go to the memorial and many people who are criticizing it haven't even actually been there. You can't but be moved by the world trade center piece that is in there, by the fact there its dirt from the field in Pennsylvania in there, and by the intention and respect for the victims that the commission exhibited.

Michael Grant:
But no more guidance from the governor's office than that? Study it carefully, but I have no instructions for you?

Janet Napolitano:
Not at this time, no.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, what do you think about the 9/11 Memorial?

Barry Hess: I was kind of saddened to see it back part of this campaign. We should be talking about the monuments costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars that have football teams and baseball teams in them. But when it really comes down to the monument we have to first determine what it is. If it is there to honor innocent lives lost, then absolutely, some of the offensive statements should go. But if it's there to memorialize an event, around which there are all kinds of questions and dubious official explanations as to what actually happened, then it very much, they are well placed because there is an outrage that comes with it. Where we don't have all the facts as people. So we first have to determine what it is and then go from there. And as governor I would keep my hands off. The commission should be left to do what it will do.

Michael Grant: Let me go to immigration. Four propositions, ballot-related, governor, on the -- on November's ballot. You have vetoed two of them, forms of two of them, official English and also the expansion proposition 200. You recommend Arizona voters veto them as well?

Janet Napolitano: Well, I recommend that Arizona voters look at the immigration issue as a whole. It needs have several components to it. We need to secure the border between the points of entry. I was one of the first two governors to declare a state of emergency. The first governor to ask that the president put the National Guard on the border and pay for it. I was the first governor to set up task forces along the border on stolen vehicle theft, fraudulent I.D. and the like. And when you to go the border, if you go there now and I go there on a regular basis, it is a very different place than it was 18 months ago, a year ago, and indeed, the numbers of illegal immigrant apprehensions are steadily going down. We need that. I am pleased to see and was pleased to stand with the president yesterday to get more resources at our border but we also need comprehensive immigration reform. That's what's really going to turn the tide here, not referenda on the ballot.

Michael Grant:
So people should not vote for English only, and an expansion of proposition 200?

Janet Napolitano:
Well my vetoes speak for themselves but you know what? If the people disagree with me and they have from time to time I will respect the will of the people.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, how do you feel about official English and expansion of the benefits that illegal aliens could qualify for here in the state of Arizona?

Barry Hess:
I think the question of official English is American English but part of the enabling act that made Arizona a state in the first place and no one seems to go back to that. I think we have breached the contract if we try to add any more languages. I am for one single language, a common language in the nation. I think that's very important in terms of binding people as far as the entitlements, if you didn't pay in you shouldn't take out. What no one wants to talk about on the border issues are the effect of NAFTA where we end up dumping all kinds of produce on South America and selling it in their markets for less than they can raise it for. We put 2 million Mexican farmers out of work and of course they head for the cities to water down the labor pool. And then American companies, as part of NAFTA, close down shop here with all minimum wages and all the other nonsensical restrictions and relocate there. So that's where we shipped off a lot of jobs and then the overflow heads north. You certainly can't fault someone for trying to take care of their family. And I wouldn't. My only concern on the border realistically is to stop people from dying in the desert or be falling prey to the coyotes and those people who would represent us in a serious security threat to the physical property or persons of Americans. As far as making the entitlement programs real, we take the honey pot out off the front yard those pesky bears from across the road might stop coming around and the reality is the best way to do it is not to try to clamp down or strong arm them but to make these programs absolutely voluntary. Membership only. You don't have the card you don't get in. Doesn't matter where you are from.

Michael Grant:
English only expansion proposition 200 benefits?

Len Munsil:
I support this proposition. But I think really this speaks to the governor's leadership style. She wants to be on both sides of every issue. We see it with 9/11 where she took responsibility for the commission. She went out and said this is my commission; this is a great monument and now things go south and suddenly it's the commission's problem, move on. Let them deal with it. We see that in the same way with this issue of border security. This Governor has done nothing to make our borders more secure. All of the things that she described to you add up to a big fat zero because of the same number of people that are crossing unlawfully today as there were four years ago. So we see that repeatedly. This issue yesterday with her inviting herself to a photo op with the President of the United States on a bill that provided money for a border fence when this governor was quoted by Senator Ted Kennedy on the floor of the senate with her famous statement that you build a 50-foot wall and I will show a 51-foot ladder she's mocked the very idea of the fence that the president was there to sign a bill for. And that's not leadership. Leadership is looking at the issue of border security and saying, what can I do as governor of Arizona to protect the lives and property of the citizens of our state? Because that's an issue that affects all of us. It certainly affects the people who live near the border. It affects people who are dealing with the educators I have talked to who are dealing with kids who are plopped in their classroom who don't speak English a and at the same time you have doctors -- I talked to doctors who are going to leave the state because they are being sued by illegal aliens they treated for free. People want a governor highways doing more than point the finger at Washington.

Michael Grant:
Have you changed your position on --

Janet Napolitano:
No. Let me give the people of Arizona the facts. First of all, I was have there at the invitation of the President. Why? Because I have been working very closely with the administration on securing our border between the ports of entry. And I believe, as he does, that we must have comprehensive immigration reform. And that gets to the quote about the wall. Yes, I said, you show me a 50-foot wall I will show a 51-foot ladder if all you do is a wall. But if you have fencing and radar and cameras, and manpower all of which are pouring into the Arizona Sonora border right now and you couple that with the temporary worker program and comprehensive immigration reform, then, you have got a real immigration plan that can work. I have been relentless on those issues for the last four years and contrary to what's been stated the fact really are that the border is much safer now. It is more secure. We have more to do. We are going to keep ate every day put one foot in front of the other.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you did, though, refer about three years ago to use of the National Guard on the border as, I think pretty close quote was, an extreme measure. And then it was in your state of the state address earlier this year. Why the shift?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, when the initial proposal was made to put the guard at the border it was for the state of Arizona taxpayers to have to pay for it. And in my view, we must keep pounding on Washington, D.C. because we never get reimbursed from Washington, D.C. once we take the lead that's money out of our treasury. I want to keep pounding on Washington, D.C. second thing was three years ago we were being given assurances about the thousands of new border patrol agents that would be coming to the Arizona Sonora border. In point of fact it's taken much longer than anybody anticipated to get those agents hired, trained, and deployed to do border. So the plan that was developed and the plan that is embodied right now at the border is to send the guard down to take, offload responsibilities from the border patrol so they can focus exclusively on interdicting illegal immigrants and that's why the traffic has gone down.

Michael Grant:
I will cycle that. We will spend some time on this. But Mr. Hess, what about use the guard on the border? There are a lot of people who suggest that the National Guard is a valuable asset. Can do a great number of things very well. But border security may not necessarily be one of its forts or one of its best uses.

Barry Hess:
I think I tend to agree. It's probably not its best use. But it might be a good stop gap. I think realistically where the state of Arizona comes in it should be under the Department of Public Safety. But I would also encourage and shut down the border instantly. I am on the one who put a time limit on it. Give congress 60 days after an inauguration. If they don't come up with the comprehensive program that's going to work, then, I would take sovereignty rights and turn it over to the legislature for 60 days.

Michael Grant:
How do you shut down the border immediately?

Barry Hess:
With manpower is the only thing we have got now. I happen to agree with the technologies that we have. We can intercept and interdict before anybody gets to the border. That's more reasonable than trying to -- it sure is. But we have also got those rampaging Canadians on the other end of the country to worry about. The reality is we have got to shut it down. We have the known roots down because those inaccessible areas are inaccessible to the bad guys as well.

Michael Grant:
Incidentally, let's stick with the Arizona Mexico border. We can --

Len Munsil:
Don't need to go north just yet.

Michael Grant:
Later. The appropriate role of the National Guard, I get the impression that you actually want it there with guns and weaponry.

Len Munsil:
I would want to work with the Federal Government to allow us to supplement their efforts to secure the border. The problem with the governor's response on this issue, she says that, oh, yeah, I was, I didn't think a fence alone was enough but she vetoed the other thing she was talking about. She vetoed the use of radar technology at the border. She vetoed sending the Arizona National Guard to the border and waited back and waited for the Federal Government to finally do something. The lives of our citizens are affected. And you know, it's not enough, it's not just that she's failed to secure the border. After four years in office. It's that she's rolled out welcome mat and just like she doesn't want us to remember that a few years ago she said it was an extreme measure to put the guard at the border she is now claiming it was her plan. She doesn't want people to remember the main thing she said about immigration, early in her term, is we ought to provide driver's licenses for illegal aliens and vetoed a subsidized in state tuition for people here unlawfully. Those are the facts. That is the report of this governor. And in an election year, hour tune has changed quite a bit.

Janet Napolitano:
Again, let's go back to the actual facts. My opponents haven't actually worked on the border. They have no immigration traffic record. They have done nothing. And so they are new to this issue. But what I have constantly said is the federal government needs to take the leading road here, the lead in the war because it's a federal border and I say that as a former united states attorney who supervised the prosecution of over 6,000 illegal immigration cases.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you have said that but I think a lot of Arizonans, not disagreeing with that point, though, say, hold it, we have had a serious failure federally and it's still our state.

Janet Napolitano:
And that is why we have put fraudulent I.D. task forces down there, stolen vehicle task forces down there, gang task forces. We have increased the size of the Department of Public Safety by 62 percent in three years to help us deal with border and border-related crime. So we have been working steadily. And every day, to make sure that we are securing that border between the ports of entry. But you are not going to just do it in 60 days, as Barry suggests, and you know, the entity, the person who will oppose Len the most on arming the National Guard at the border will be the president of the United States. Because he believes, and I support him, that he has struck the appropriate balance for what the guard needs to do down there, to free up the border patrols, to actually provide the law enforcement at the border.

Michael Grant: All right. Listen, I need to shift to some other subjects. Let's go to tax questions, infrastructure questions, some related subjects there. Mr. Hess, what's your overall tax strategy? Elected governor, resist the notion here to say no taxes whatsoever. Give me an idea where Barry Hess is on overall tax policy.

Barry Hess:
Overall tax policy is changing them immediately to conform them to the constitutional requirements. I believe the single most self destructive policy to hit this country was the I am position of a an income tax. No one can find authority for something that didn't exist before 1913 and eight Supreme Court cases say it doesn't exist after the fact and not even because of the rogue agents who routinely destroy marriages and businesses. My concern goes to the heart of the a matter, the family values. I think for the first time in American history it required a two paycheck family to support a home and it took our moms out of the homes and left our latch key children to the mercy of Jerry Springer to teach them morals and values. I think it's exhibiting itself in our young people today. So I want to work toward eliminating income tax and what we will find is that any time these politicians want to attract a news business, what do they do? They offer them an income tax break. I want to offer that to everyone. At the same time that is country founded own one single premise and that's respect for private property ownership rights. I want to eliminate the property property tax altogether. In the interim, of course, offering vouchers or anything to offset, which forces more money into the legislative budget so it forces the legislature to prioritize. Right 94 it's just spends, spend, spend, spend, spend, add, add, add, add, add. I would like them to go back and look at all old programs in order to add new programs.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, off 10-year plan to phase out income tax. Will it work? How do you replace those revenues?

Len Munsil:
I think the key thing, Michael, is to have continual pressure to reduce taxes to spur economic activity in our state. I do believe in tax cuts. And I do support moving in the direction of eliminating the state income tax. We are going to continue to see economic growth in our state. You have states like Florida, New Hampshire, many states that don't have a state income tax and I would like to move in the direction of reducing tax, spurring our economy, continue to have economic growth. That is, again, a clear contrast between me and the incumbent governor because she has fought every single tax decrease and only relented as part of negotiations. She said that the tax cuts proposed this last year were a raid on Arizona's future. And it presents a different philosophy, a different mindset. The tax cuts were not as great as they should have been well budget surplus we had but her approach is to figure identity how to spend that money rather than looking at returning it to the taxpayers that were overpaid.

Michael Grant:
How do you replace revenues?

Len Munsil:
Overtime we will see economic growth continue and you will see an increase come in with sales tax. You look at where we have been we had an 8\% top rate a few years ago. And we are down to 5\% and it's going to decrease this next year, thanks to pressure from the legislature, not from this governor. And yet our revenues have accelerated dramatically. So we need to continue to have downward pressure and reduce taxes and that is what will attract businesses to the state of Arizona.

Michael Grant:
You did resist overall tax cuts. And you offered, instead, affirmatively $100 million of more targeted tax cuts. Is that Janet Napolitano's tax philosophy?

Janet Napolitano:
No. But I think what you need to do when you are the governor is you have to balance the budget. I have presented a balanced budget every year to the legislature. And to do that you have to take, think not only of your revenues but of your spending. You know, what somebody who says I want to eliminate the income tax is not tilling you and your question suggests it is, well, you tell me what classrooms are going to be 40 pupils are more because k-12 spending is the biggest single part of your budget. Tell me which prisoners are letting out of prisons. Tell me what people you are kicking out of access. Those are the big elements of a billing budget. If you don't properly gauge revenues and spending in a growing state as ours is you end up with what I inherited when I came in office, a $1.3 billion deficit. I believe in managing the state finances so we keep the tax rate low and competitive, which it is, our per capita spending is the lowest among any state in the country. So we have got things in balance. But we also need to invest. We also need to invest.

Michael Grant:
Let me go back to one of the points Mr. Hess made on opening statement because I think it's well taken. If I recall correctly about four years ago to the day, perhaps, there were four of us gathered around this -- we were, in fact --

Janet Napolitano:
A quadrennial event.

Michael Grant:
We were facing a $1.3 billion deficit. And credits were the great evil. Everyone was, well, couple of people, including yourself were saying we've got to examine the tax code. Then you come back this year with a tax credit package.

Janet Napolitano:
Right. We did look at those things. But, you know, we signed, I proposed for example a sales tax holiday for school supplies. A lot of states have it. It's wonderfully successful. Legislature didn't like that. They proposed something else. That's the give and take that goes on between a legislature governor a and a legislature. When we negotiated the budget this year by the time we got around to negotiating it the revenues in our state had gone way higher than any projections before hand. So we had a lot more flex bill too toe do a lot more different things.

Michael Grant:
Philosophically now do you think that's the better approach? Targeted tax credits to encourage business execute whatever government think is good growth?

Janet Napolitano:
The tax credits that I think are the most beneficial are those that help stimulate jobs and job creation. The sales factor tax, for example, when which I signed last year which resulted in Intel making a decision to build its new domestic fab right here in Arizona. Business property tax reduction. Tax credits for things like solar energy, some of the things that we want to help stimulate in our economy. And they need to be tied to jobs, quality of life. This year, because the revenues were so high, we were able to accompany those kinds of tax relieve measures with income tax cuts. But again, you can't talk about taxes in isolation. And somebody who has not governed doesn't fully appreciate all the demands that are made to educate, to incarcerate, and to provide health care.

Michael Grant:
Let's go to the tax credit plan. A material point is made. I keep hearing radio ads about I think it's a $2 billion business fund in Michigan. Arizona is a wonderful place to live. But we got a lot of competition. And a fair case can be made that tax credits are not the great evil to pull in the right kind of people.

Len Munsil:
I don't think the government should be in the business of picking and choosing winners in the economy, winners and losers. What we to be doing is providing a level playing field. That is what would attract the state of Arizona. When I hear the governor says we did this and we did that with respect to the economic turn around in Arizona, I can't help but think Babe Ruth and I hit 714 home runs in the major leagues. She came into the deficit of this circumstance. She analyzed the economic circumstances and as you indicated a proposed a number of things, put together a commission that proposed raising taxes on a lot of different areas of sales, and the result of that was the legislature said it's dead on arrival. We had federal tax cuts take affect. We have a growing state and the revenues began to come in and now she wants us to forget that her solving our problems was completely wrong and we had this economic policy without any of other policies being implemented. She did oppose even the tax cuts she's taking credit for now.

Michael Grant:
Recognizing you're libertarian, but taking the world as you find it, sometimes do you have to dangle a carrot to get somebody to come here?

Barry Hess:
On the way there. I think the Governor asked a good question about which classrooms would you shut down? I would like to see us move away from the government system completely. Arizona is just one of those unique states, seven or eight, I think, that have a state constitutional provision to provide for government education. It reads that free or nearly free public instruction. I don't have people having trouble investing to their being classes with home schooling. I'm for home schooling, private school, charter school, government schooling, a competitive mix is the only way we will get a decent education here for Arizona. But when she mentioned which prisoners, 60 to 70\% of the prisoners that we are incarcerating are people who smoked a joint or people who are there just for possession of drugs that they used themselves. I think that would be a good place to get those people off the public dole and out into the work force again.

Michael Grant:
Let me go to the related question of infrastructure improvement. We are expecting 8 million more people in the next 20, 30 years. Infrastructure is being strained, particularly the road system. Maricopa County voters have taxed themselves twice to try to support it. We are growing out, though, and a lot of areas like Pinal County don't have the sales tax base to do that. And we need take a serious look at some sort of state mechanism to start doing things like widening I-17, improving the roads in a growing Phoenix metropolitan area and a number of other needs?

Len Munsil:
Michael, we have a lot of infrastructure problems in our state related to growth that have not been addressed adequately. As a native Arizonan, I have watched in amazement as time after time we build a freeway and it's immediately full, immediately overtaxed with population that we have. We have done a very poor job as a state. In long-term planning looking ahead to trying to plan for all of the people who are coming here. But one of the things that we need to remember when we talk about infrastructure needs of our state, and this affects a lot of other areas including education, is that our inability of our failure to secure the border affects the people of Arizona. It affects our quality of life. And it affects the infrastructure needs in our state. We have got to begin with securing the border. It's going to affect many other aspects of our life.

Michael Grant:
Dedicated tax. State line to support, for example, road infrastructure improvements?

Janet Napolitano: I don't know if that's the way to go, Michael. I think, though, that time stuck in traffic is a time tax. And for people who are traveling to and fro work or trying to pick up the kids from school or what have you, their time is almost their most precious commodity. We are working to see what we can do to accelerate current road. Projects already on the books. We were able this year to put an additional $307 million into transportation to accelerate projects on I-10, I-17. In the valley but also throughout the rest of Arizona because there are transportation issues there as well.

Michael Grant:
Should that be a consistent priority?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I think it's going to have to be. But I think it has to be done in congestion with where our projected population growth is going to be and correlating that with issues about water, water planning, we have been doing a lot on that but we will need water infrastructure. We are going to need to be able to move water from one part of the state to the other as we move along. We need to be talking about the management of public lands and preservation of open space because many of us choose to live in Arizona because we want access to open space. We have to take that into account. We need to be planning where we are well George Gascon to build our schoolings, where our hospitals and emergency rooms are going to be located. That all goes into really thinking long term about the future of Arizona. Where is Arizona going to be in the year 2040? 2050? How do we get there?

Michael Grant:
One place we are going to be we will have a lot more people. Do we focus more state level resources on what I think up to this point in time is often been thought of as local infrastructure issues?

Barry Hess:
Local infrastructures that are combined ends up being the whole statewide but there is a place I think for statewide planning to make sure that people can get from one area of Arizona without telling that's where we wanted to you grow. It will be filled if we will just get government out of the way so that individuals or companies want to build private roads, it's been very successful in California in particular and highly urban congested areas. The private roads rights most successful. And I wouldn't have any problem with encouraging that and if they want to make a profit ought it so much the better.

Michael Grant:
Let me shift to education and, unfortunately, going to have to get into the subject of school safety. It's been a terrible couple of weeks. Obviously, schools and school districts maintain emergency response plans. There's a lot of local options in them as to what additional security measures they take. Metal detectors, police on campus, those kinds of things. Nobody wants to go here but the lessons unfortunately we have learned in the past couple of weeks, do we start, need to start mandating more school security measures for our schools and school districts?

Janet Napolitano:
No. I thought about that. And I still think that that needs to be considered within the context of an individual school or school district and community. Because Arizona is such a, such a diverse place. When I was attorney general, we crafted a school safety manual for schools. And one of the things that I have asked and talked to the Attorney General about yesterday and have sent some letters out, lets make sure those have been kept updated. Let's make sure people are making sure our children are safe in schools because one thing a parent needs to have assures rance of when the child goes to school the child will be safe. That process needs and is under way as we speak.

Michael Grant:
I certainly appreciate the local control aspect but I think probably people in rural Pennsylvania thought they were safe as well.

Janet Napolitano:
Yeah. And so you want to say, well, what is it that exactly you would mandate statewide? Would you mandate --

Michael Grant:
Metal detectors?

Janet Napolitano:
Yes. But in schools that have metal detectors what you find talking to people there you have a metal detector they find a way around it. So it's really focusing people, leadership. Our teachers, our principal, our parents, our community leaders, lieutenants make sure, let's wrap our arms around our schools make sure they are safe as possible.

Michael Grant:
School safety.

Len Munsil:
Yeah, obviously, it's tragic that we have to even think about those issues. And it speaks to where we are as a culture compared to 40 or 50 years ago that we have people coming in on a regular basis and committing these acts of violence. I do think when you look at issues like metal detectors we have them in our federal buildings. We have them at the airport and the State Capital where the Governor works. I think that's something we need to look at in our public schools. No one should have any fear or concern sending their students to a public school that there's an act of violence is going to come upon them there. I think that's something we need to look at.

Michael Grant:
What do you think, Mr. Hess?

Barry Hess:
I think we have created all kinds of disarmed victim zones and we have seen it here. The one in Pennsylvania, because of the culture, was very unique. Because that's generally a very pacifist group and it couldn't be foreseen. That's one of the hazards of day to day life. Government can't make you safe. It's like the police force. They become crime scene protectors. They are always there after someone is harmed. Of course, I am going to advocate making sure that the second amendment is always respected so that people can protect themselves and their families but also if they choose not a carry a firearm, the bad guys don't know who it is it tends to discourage them. They will either go away by discouragement or demise. The last one in the spat of them when we had all the school shootings three or four or five together, it was interceded quite accidentally where an armed individual was able to stop and it they stopped until this one. And I think it's really important if we get back to people understanding that person over there across the table may well, able to defend themselves, the bad guys go away. They always say you don't find a renegade shooter on a firing range. There's a reason for that.

Michael Grant:
English language learning, Federal Court is going to take that issue back up in January, take a look at what Arizona has done in the past six years, whether or not we are spending adequate resource on English language learners. What's Len Munsil's position on where the court should go?

Len Munsil:
First of all, I have to point out again like many, many other issues if with we had done a better job securing our border that's another area where citizens of Arizona are paying the consequences. We don't turn people away at schoolhouse door so once they are here when we have not done our job to security border we end up paying a lot of additional costs. I thought the proposal that the legislature had was legitimate. I can't believe that we would ski to an unelected federal judge the power to determine how we are going to solve problems like that. It's one of the issues I have been active in over the years opposing activist judges imposing their will on the people using some flimsy constitutional excuse. That not only did that happen, Michael, in this case but our Governor and our Attorney General went along with it. And we are happy to have the federal judge making decisions for the people of Arizona because she didn't like the decisions that the legislature -- she didn't want to negotiate with the legislature anymore. She wanted the federal judge to make the decision. Fortunately that decision was overturned by the Ninth Circuit. We will have another crack at it.

Michael Grant:
Governor, Ninth Circuit has said state Arizona of ought to be given a shot at demonstrating that a number of things it's done in the past six years or so, the dedicated sales tax for teacher's salaries increased revenues from state land, the students first building program are enough down there. You have taken a strong position they are not enough. Is that the position you will anyway January?

Janet Napolitano:
Here is what needs to happen. We have a million children in school in Arizona. About 160,000 don't speak English as their first language. They need to learn how to read, write, and speak in English as quickly as possible. To be academically competitive to be economically successful. We need to do whatever it takes to get that done. Yes, we are in court. I wish we were not in court. And Len wasn't at the capital. He wasn't party to what was going on. But we were just at an impasse and when you are at an impasse and the issue here are we complying with a federal law, a federal law, that's what federal courts are there to decide. We had asked the federal court earlier to go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. He decided not to. What the Ninth Circuit basically said was let's go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. That's benefit scheduled. But I hope when we start the next session, we can renew this dialogue. People have been meeting, well meaning people have been meeting about this during the interim and if we can get this out of court and back to the capital and get it done and get it done in time for the children who are now in school, that to me would be a satisfactory result.

Michael Grant:
There are some statistics from the Nogales School District that indicate that they have made a remarkable progress.

Janet Napolitano:
And there are statistics from --

Michael Grant:
Of the current funding scheme.

Janet Napolitano:
There are old statistics but there are statistics from other districts and recognize this is the whole state not just Nogales that would say otherwise. Does and that's why we now have a committee that's meeting. I have made several appointments to it. The legislature made several appointments to it. The superintendent made several appointments to it. I have asked them to take an objective look at the actual data. What does it cost in the year 2006 to make sure that a youngster learns to read, write, and speak in English? That at ought to be our criterion.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
I think it's really interesting because here we have the state getting involved in something it has no business getting involved in. I have had the opportunity to travel around world and I would never once been in a country where they provided me with French language learning or German language learning or anything else and neither should we. That should fall to those people who recognize the need. And they do recognize the need and let them band together and form their own way, their own method of learning English. Because that's when the parents start putting emphasis on it and parts of our problem in education is we have got a whole generation people my age with kids who don't appreciate education because they're looking for mommy government to provide it. When they know that it's a source of pride or something they can develop on their own, they learn better. Everyone knows that if you want to learn something, you learn far better than trying to cram it into their head. And it just seems to be ludicrous to have the state involved in alternate languages and not including all 144 languages in the country. At the very least. It just seems silly for us to even be involved in going into the Spanish language.

Michael Grant:
Only got about a minute and a half total time left. Give me 30 seconds on this. Corporate tuition tax credits for private scholarship funds. Do you support?

Barry Hess:
Absolutely. Have to support it. That's one of the good areas because what I would like to see is our school system based upon a competency exam so that you, work in your butt off, you get straight A's, I'm slacking we get the same diploma. This somehow seems inequitable. I would like to see an exterior 10 see exam that stayed voluntary so parents could zero in exactly where their kids needed the help and at some point employers would say, we want you because you are competent in these areas. That's when they would form corporate schools.

Len Munsil:
I am a strong supporter of educational choice. I believe we have to do a lot of things to strengthen public education in the state of Arizona including merit pay for teachers who are doing the best job of educating our kids but I fought to defend those tax credits in the Arizona Supreme Court and I believe very strongly that school choice and parental options in education should not be the exclusive province of the wealthy.

Michael Grant:
You oppose them. Why?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I agreed to some too business tax credits. I have a pilot to see if they do make a difference but we have lots of choice within the public schools in Arizona. We have open enrollment. We have charter schools. We have the most charter schools of any state in the country. The plain fact of the matter is as the overwhelming majority of our children are going to be he would indicated in the public schools. And we need to make sure that these public schools are as good as they can be. And that the children graduating from those public schools are ready to go on to community college, to university, or to mier technical education because that's when what our 21st century economy is going to demand.

Michael Grant:
Ok. Well, the clock is demanding that we close this phase of the debate. And we are out of time for this debate between the candidates running for governor. Each candidate will now have two minutes for a closing statement, once again, under certified circumstances the order of presentation was chosen randomly, I am checking my notes, Mr. Munsil, you go first.

Len Munsil:
Yes. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate the chance to be with you and talk about the issues important to our state. You know, when I got into the race for governor somebody meet me and my family and they said with eight kids if you can govern a family of 10, you can -- governor of the state of Arizona ought to be a piece of cake. Well, I don't go that far. There's a lot of issues that face us as a people. But I think the values that I represent, the core values that I represent of limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, of the need to secure the border of the state of Arizona, a tough approach to crime, appointing judges who are tough on crime and the centrality of the family, I believe strongly that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. And that's what I would represent. By contrast, I think we have a governor who has demonstrated herself to be outside the mainstream of the people of Arizona. A record breaking number of vetoes in one term of office. A failure to adequately address border security in the state of Arizona. No one questions it's the federal government's responsibility. But when they don't do their job, and the lives of Arizonans are affected, the question is what does the governor do? And we have had a governor who has pointed the finger of blame everywhere else. We have seen that on issue after issue. Worst crime rate in the nation, we have a governor who has been a career politician now 12 years in office with law enforcement authority and yet we have seen the state of Arizona deteriorate into that in time to having the worst crime rate in the nation. What's your plan to deal with that? Education, child protective services, we have a -- again a. Governor who promised to fix them and yet we continue to have major struggles in both of those areas. This governor vetoed efforts to protect gun owners' rights in times of emergency. This governor vetoed efforts to allow parents for involved in their daughter's abortion to the ability to consent to that. On issue after issue that affects the state we continue to struggle and gun I come back, the economy has improved in it's only because we ignored the economic proposals of this governor. If you believe as I do that we can do better, I would welcome your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Your closing statement.

Janet Napolitano:
Well, again, I think that the facts of my record are very strong. We have done more on illegal immigration than any admission and we are doing more every day. My opponents haven't been to the border. They haven't worked on this issue. That's one of the many differences between us. I believe in Arizona. I believe in our past. I believe in our future. Our future that is bright. A future as a growth state, a future that is going to be built on a 21st century economy. That's why we have managed the state to work on education, to improve higher education, to bring in high-tech business, to create more jobs. This economy has created 330,000 new jobs and we are on our way to creating almost 150,000 more jobs per capita income going up. Yes, we have challenges. We have challenges. But we're not going to beat those challenges and get over those obstacles by tearing each other down. I am a builder. I am a builder. I believe in Arizona. I believe I am helping to build a new state. I would like your support and your vote to help lead you in that effort going forward.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
You know, as one of the issues that we didn't get to talk about which I think is significant is healthcare and one of the simple solutions is not trying to get more money out of the working population for the nonworking population. It realistically could be to get government regulation out of healthcare. The figures always seem to come back we could lessen the cost of our healthcare 60 to 70\%. That's significant. People could afford their healthcare off the their hip pockets if that's the case. I think it's really important when we talk about the budget, we supposedly have this surplus. I'm finding it difficult to believe. As an English major, not a math major but I can count. Reality is how can you possibly have a surplus when you have outstanding liabilities? Unless they are paid in full and that would mean if we slut down government today nobody would come looking for money. Obviously not the case. There is no surplus. I think its smoke and mirrors. In education, I think we could look at the progress of the student and focus there, not on preserving the administrative process of administration. I mean the reality is what we are seeing is politicians doing what politicians do. They divide us up into groups, pit us against each other and then offer to referee. And I am pretty sick and tired of that kind of thing. And I think we need a uniter. The governor can't work with this legislature and we have heard the legislature can't work with this governor unfortunately. As a libertarian I am free look at good ideas without fear of political repercussions or reprisals. I think that I offer that to Arizona. I don't want to say at this point to say that I had political experience to me, would be the last thing I would want on my resume. That would say, to say I could thrive in a corrupt system could say only one thing about my personal character and that's not what I want to say about my character. I hope that people will take the time to find out more about all of the candidates and visit us at www.hessforgovernor.com and I promise you we would be able to give you something you seldom see in this state and that's to be able to cast a vote you will never have to apologize or excuse and you will never be called upon to defend. And to the Latinos -- [speaking to Spanish] thank you very much.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, thank you very much. I am glad you dropped the website reference because we have had that every night this week.

Barry Hess:
I saw Jan doing it.

Michael Grant:
I would have missed it. Mr. Munsil, thank you very much for joining us. And Governor Janet Napolitano, our thanks to you as well. Best of luck to awful you on the campaign trail. That concludes our clean elections debates for the candidates running for statewide offices. You can watch the debates again or you can get information about the statewide races, propositions and congressional races at our website. Here right details.

Mike Sauceda:
To get to the Horizon vote 2006 website, go to the Eight website at azpbs.org. Click on vote 2006. That will take to you our Horizon Vote 2006 home page which is loaded with features to help you as you prepare to cast your ballot. One of the most prominent features is top videos of the top videos feature; you can view past Horizon election shows. The five tabs on the upper part of the screen allow to you access all the information you need on the propositions, statewide races, the U.S. senate race, congressional races, and clean elections debates. For example, if you click on the proposition tab, you will get a list of propositions that will appear on the November ballot. Click on one of the propositions such as prop 100 and you will get links to the text of the proposed amendment, analysis by the legislative counsel, arguments for and against the measure, the official ballot language and dates of town halls on the measure. On the Horizon Vote 2006 website, you can also access online videos, RSS feeds, podcasts and Cronkite Eight Poll. A couple of other features, my ballot, a print a-form to remind you of your choices as you vote. You can also check out when to watch Horizon election coverage.

Michael Grant:
Thanks very much for joining us for these gubernatorial debates. Hope you can join us tomorrow for the Friday edition of Horizon when we will recap the week's news events. Mike Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

Immigration


Guests:
  • Governor Janet Napolitano - Democratic incumbent
  • Len Munsil - Republican candidate
  • Barry Hess - Libertarian candidate
Category:

View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight a Horizon special. With immigration topping the list of issues impacting Arizona, three people are seeking the reins of the state. Immigration just one issue with which the next governor will have to deal. There's also the education of English learners and the controversy that arise suddenly like the 9/11 memorial. A debate between the three candidates running for governor. That's next on Horizon.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Arizona's governor can be elected for up to two four-year terms as the representative of one of the three branches of government. The governor has many duties which impact your lives. The governor annually recommending to the state legislature a budget and suggestions for new laws. Chief executive also serves as commander in chief of the state's militia, appoints judges and members of state regulatory boards and commissions and state department heads. There are three people running for governor. In a few moments they will debate the issues but first here's a look at each candidate.

Mike Sauceda:
Barry Hess is 49 and resides in Phoenix. He is a currency trader. He is married and has a son. He is not running as a clean elections candidate. Len Munsil lives in Scottsdale and is 42 years old. He is an attorney. He is married and has eight children. Munsil is running with clean elections funding. Janet Napolitano is 49 years old and a resident of Phoenix. She is an attorney, is not married and has no children. She is running as a clean elections candidate.

Michael Grant:
Joining me now is libertarian candidate Barry Hess, the Republican Challenger Len Munsil and Democratic Incumbent Janet Napolitano. Tonight's debate sponsored by Arizona's citizens clean elections commission. Also sponsoring the debate is Arizona State University. Each candidate has a couple of minutes to make an opening statement. The order of presentation chosen right before the show randomly, certified by an accounting firm. And Barry, you get to open.

Barry Hess:
Here we go. You know, I'm really proud to be the only nonparticipating in the clean elections scheme of things. Because I think it's a little hypocritical and unethical to be able to tell people that I am going to help lessen their burden by taking more of their money so it makes me very proud to be the only one running a clean campaign. Without taking campaign money. It's amazing because I'm no psychic but I can tell you exactly what's going to happen here tonight. We are going to have a democrat and she is going to tell you that she knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard-earned money better than you can. The republican is going to be a little bit different. He is going to tell you he knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard earned money better than the democrat. As the libertarian, I have to tell you the truth. These are things that only you and I as responsible parents and community members can do no matter how much money we throw at it; no matter how much we wish it to be true. It still falls back to our personal responsibility. As a libertarian I am the keeper of a sacred trust between the people themselves and their servant government. And I hope to do a good job at illustrating what that means. Four years ago, we were promised out of the box thinking. We ended up with just a bigger box. We were also told that our failing schools that were ranked on some of the levels at 44th in the nation that were going to be made better. Our governor promised that she was going to make them better giving it all of her time, her talent and her abilities and I believe she did. It just wasn't good enough. We are now ranked 50th or 49th fit makes people feel better. I would like to see the argument change not to 49th or 50th but first or second. I believe very firmly education should be the center post of every single campaign at election of time these are the people who are going to be running this place when you and I are too old and gray to do anything about it and I want them 10 times smarter and more competent than I could ever hope to be. I hope tonight's debate will give you some of the ideas that will show you how getting government out of the way and respecting our constitution and your individual rights is exactly what we are all about. And I hope that you will see that very clearly. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Good evening. Your opening.

Janet Napolitano:
Thank you very much. You know, for the past three and a half years I have had the honor and privilege as serve go as your governor. When I took office Arizona was not in very good shape. We were over $1 billion in deficit. Our economy was not moving. We had just come out of the alternative fuels fiasco. Now we have over $1 billion surplus. We have invested in education. All day kindergarten, $100 million for teacher pay raises. We set aside $400 million to build new research labs at our universities and a new medical center in Downtown Phoenix. And we are just getting started. The economy that was not moving very fast three, three and a half years ago is now ranked as the number one forward momentum economy in the United States. And our per capita income the first half of 2006 went up faster than any other state in the country. So we have made great progress. But this campaign and this election is about the future. What is our future? To me there are three huge challenges that we must confront: education, Barry mentioned it. We have a lot left to do. We have focused on k-3, kindergarten, whatever but now we need math and science and higher education. Economic growth, jobs, throughout the state of Arizona, and then we must deal with the issue of growth. We are expected to double in population over the next 30 to 40 years. We need to get ahead. Transportation, water planning, open space, all of the issues that go into creating quality communities and to having that unique Arizona quality of life that we have all come to so appreciate. There's a lot of work to be done. A lot has been done but if we work together, we will make Arizona a number one state in this country. And that is my goal for all of us. I would appreciate your support and your help for another four years.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, good evening.

Len Munsil:
Good evening, Michael.

Michael Grant:
You're opening statement.

Len Munsil:
Thank you. My name is Len Munsil; I am the republican candidate for governor of Arizona. I am a native Arizonan, third generation of the state. One of the great joys I have experienced over the last eight months is traveling the state of Arizona, getting the chance to talk to tens of thousands of individual citizens in homes, at community events, learning what's on their heart, their desires, their hopes, their dreams for the state of Arizona. I am, I have been here, a lot of people came here to move to the state of Arizona because it's a great place to live. I have been here and chose to stay here and raise my family here. And I met my wife Tracy right here at Arizona State University. I am a graduate of our public school system. Of our public universities. We have been married more than 20 years and have eight children. When I look at my kids I think of the future of our state and what kind of quality of life they will have here. I believe very strongly that the core values that I represent, limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, the need to secure the border, a tough approach to crime, appointing conservative judges who will be tough on crime, and the centrality of the family, that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. I think they provide a stark contrast with the values of our current governor. We have seen that on issue after issue affecting the state of Arizona, beginning with the border, we have not secured our board. There's been no change over four years in the number of illegal crossings into our state and that affects the quality of life for all of us. We have the worst crime rate in the nation in the state of Arizona. We have other areas like education, child protective service where this governor said vote for me. Elect me and I will improve things. I will be the education governor. And yet as Barry indicated we have many problems yet to solve. I believe that we can do better in the state of Arizona. The one area we've improved going from a deficit to a surplus only happened because we ignored this governor's economic plan in this governor's economic principles. We can do better in the state of Arizona. If you agree with me, and believe that we can do better for our state, I hope to have your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Thank you. All right. Let's dive into it. I'm always fascinated in election cycles that come up that you simply cannot anticipate. The 9/11 memorial has been capturing a lot of attention in the past weeks. Mr. Munsil you have been accused of politicizing that issue. Have you politicized it?

Len Munsil:
No. I believe the people who politicized it right people who got out there and created a memorial that has a tax on America, attacks on the military, as I said at our press conference, it would be as if we built a memorial to Pearl Harbor and the focus of the memorial was Japanese interment camps. It totally represents a Michael Moore moveon.org out of touch approach to an issue like that. This was meant to honor the families and the victims of those who perished on 9/11. And it does not do that. And I have looked into the eyes of family members of 9/11 victims. I have looked into the eyes of those whose children were lost responding to what happened on 9/11. And I think as I talked about in my opening core values matter here. And we have a governor that embraced that memorial, that stood out there and said this is my commission, this is something I support. It's a great memorial. Totally missing the fact that it offends a lot of people. And I strongly disagree with that.

Michael Grant:
Don't you think bulldozing it might be a sort of an extreme --

Len Munsil:
I said there are elements of it that should be kept but if you look ate overall as a whole it's not just two or three inscriptions it's as if we want to approach teaching our children -- the governor talked about that -- for generations they will learn about 9/11 from this. What they will learn is tolerance for terrorists and the view of the world that doesn't understand we were attacked by people who killed innocent Americans and we don't, we don't need to treat the memory of the victims that way.

Michael Grant: Governor Napolitano, let me go to you. You seemed to embrace the memorial initially. Backed away from that. Said it's really a matter for the commission. Where are you now?

Janet Napolitano: No, I am embraced the memorial but we do no honor to the victims of 9/11 by injecting this into the middle of a gubernatorial campaign. The commission was independent, half appointed by me, half appointed by Governor Hull, and chaired by a firefighter. On the commission were people who had lost loved ones in the World Trade Center. People who had gone back to New York City and to Pennsylvania to clean up the wreckage of those terrible terrorist acts. And the memorial was well intentioned, and the design overall is a very, very good design. The chair of the commission has already said after the election they will take into account some of the comments made and if the memorial can be made better it will be. I was reminded when the Vietnam War Memorial was first built on the Capitol. People didn't like it. It was different. It was new. It was considered disrespectful of those who had given their lives in Vietnam. And the end result was after the political hullabaloo died down there were changes made around that memorial. And today it's most frequently visited memorial on the Capitol Mall in Washington, and a very moving place and the 9/11 Memorial on our capital lawn is as well.

Michael Grant:
Would you encourage the commission to make changes to the 9/11 Memorial similar to the ones you just mentioned for the Vietnam Memorial?

Janet Napolitano:
I encourage the commission to go at it with an open mind. There are people very different points of view at this point and to make their best judgments for what is an appropriate and what is a good memorial. But if you go to the memorial and many people who are criticizing it haven't even actually been there. You can't but be moved by the world trade center piece that is in there, by the fact there its dirt from the field in Pennsylvania in there, and by the intention and respect for the victims that the commission exhibited.

Michael Grant:
But no more guidance from the governor's office than that? Study it carefully, but I have no instructions for you?

Janet Napolitano:
Not at this time, no.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, what do you think about the 9/11 Memorial?

Barry Hess: I was kind of saddened to see it back part of this campaign. We should be talking about the monuments costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars that have football teams and baseball teams in them. But when it really comes down to the monument we have to first determine what it is. If it is there to honor innocent lives lost, then absolutely, some of the offensive statements should go. But if it's there to memorialize an event, around which there are all kinds of questions and dubious official explanations as to what actually happened, then it very much, they are well placed because there is an outrage that comes with it. Where we don't have all the facts as people. So we first have to determine what it is and then go from there. And as governor I would keep my hands off. The commission should be left to do what it will do.

Michael Grant: Let me go to immigration. Four propositions, ballot-related, governor, on the -- on November's ballot. You have vetoed two of them, forms of two of them, official English and also the expansion proposition 200. You recommend Arizona voters veto them as well?

Janet Napolitano: Well, I recommend that Arizona voters look at the immigration issue as a whole. It needs have several components to it. We need to secure the border between the points of entry. I was one of the first two governors to declare a state of emergency. The first governor to ask that the president put the National Guard on the border and pay for it. I was the first governor to set up task forces along the border on stolen vehicle theft, fraudulent I.D. and the like. And when you to go the border, if you go there now and I go there on a regular basis, it is a very different place than it was 18 months ago, a year ago, and indeed, the numbers of illegal immigrant apprehensions are steadily going down. We need that. I am pleased to see and was pleased to stand with the president yesterday to get more resources at our border but we also need comprehensive immigration reform. That's what's really going to turn the tide here, not referenda on the ballot.

Michael Grant:
So people should not vote for English only, and an expansion of proposition 200?

Janet Napolitano:
Well my vetoes speak for themselves but you know what? If the people disagree with me and they have from time to time I will respect the will of the people.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, how do you feel about official English and expansion of the benefits that illegal aliens could qualify for here in the state of Arizona?

Barry Hess:
I think the question of official English is American English but part of the enabling act that made Arizona a state in the first place and no one seems to go back to that. I think we have breached the contract if we try to add any more languages. I am for one single language, a common language in the nation. I think that's very important in terms of binding people as far as the entitlements, if you didn't pay in you shouldn't take out. What no one wants to talk about on the border issues are the effect of NAFTA where we end up dumping all kinds of produce on South America and selling it in their markets for less than they can raise it for. We put 2 million Mexican farmers out of work and of course they head for the cities to water down the labor pool. And then American companies, as part of NAFTA, close down shop here with all minimum wages and all the other nonsensical restrictions and relocate there. So that's where we shipped off a lot of jobs and then the overflow heads north. You certainly can't fault someone for trying to take care of their family. And I wouldn't. My only concern on the border realistically is to stop people from dying in the desert or be falling prey to the coyotes and those people who would represent us in a serious security threat to the physical property or persons of Americans. As far as making the entitlement programs real, we take the honey pot out off the front yard those pesky bears from across the road might stop coming around and the reality is the best way to do it is not to try to clamp down or strong arm them but to make these programs absolutely voluntary. Membership only. You don't have the card you don't get in. Doesn't matter where you are from.

Michael Grant:
English only expansion proposition 200 benefits?

Len Munsil:
I support this proposition. But I think really this speaks to the governor's leadership style. She wants to be on both sides of every issue. We see it with 9/11 where she took responsibility for the commission. She went out and said this is my commission; this is a great monument and now things go south and suddenly it's the commission's problem, move on. Let them deal with it. We see that in the same way with this issue of border security. This Governor has done nothing to make our borders more secure. All of the things that she described to you add up to a big fat zero because of the same number of people that are crossing unlawfully today as there were four years ago. So we see that repeatedly. This issue yesterday with her inviting herself to a photo op with the President of the United States on a bill that provided money for a border fence when this governor was quoted by Senator Ted Kennedy on the floor of the senate with her famous statement that you build a 50-foot wall and I will show a 51-foot ladder she's mocked the very idea of the fence that the president was there to sign a bill for. And that's not leadership. Leadership is looking at the issue of border security and saying, what can I do as governor of Arizona to protect the lives and property of the citizens of our state? Because that's an issue that affects all of us. It certainly affects the people who live near the border. It affects people who are dealing with the educators I have talked to who are dealing with kids who are plopped in their classroom who don't speak English a and at the same time you have doctors -- I talked to doctors who are going to leave the state because they are being sued by illegal aliens they treated for free. People want a governor highways doing more than point the finger at Washington.

Michael Grant:
Have you changed your position on --

Janet Napolitano:
No. Let me give the people of Arizona the facts. First of all, I was have there at the invitation of the President. Why? Because I have been working very closely with the administration on securing our border between the ports of entry. And I believe, as he does, that we must have comprehensive immigration reform. And that gets to the quote about the wall. Yes, I said, you show me a 50-foot wall I will show a 51-foot ladder if all you do is a wall. But if you have fencing and radar and cameras, and manpower all of which are pouring into the Arizona Sonora border right now and you couple that with the temporary worker program and comprehensive immigration reform, then, you have got a real immigration plan that can work. I have been relentless on those issues for the last four years and contrary to what's been stated the fact really are that the border is much safer now. It is more secure. We have more to do. We are going to keep ate every day put one foot in front of the other.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you did, though, refer about three years ago to use of the National Guard on the border as, I think pretty close quote was, an extreme measure. And then it was in your state of the state address earlier this year. Why the shift?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, when the initial proposal was made to put the guard at the border it was for the state of Arizona taxpayers to have to pay for it. And in my view, we must keep pounding on Washington, D.C. because we never get reimbursed from Washington, D.C. once we take the lead that's money out of our treasury. I want to keep pounding on Washington, D.C. second thing was three years ago we were being given assurances about the thousands of new border patrol agents that would be coming to the Arizona Sonora border. In point of fact it's taken much longer than anybody anticipated to get those agents hired, trained, and deployed to do border. So the plan that was developed and the plan that is embodied right now at the border is to send the guard down to take, offload responsibilities from the border patrol so they can focus exclusively on interdicting illegal immigrants and that's why the traffic has gone down.

Michael Grant:
I will cycle that. We will spend some time on this. But Mr. Hess, what about use the guard on the border? There are a lot of people who suggest that the National Guard is a valuable asset. Can do a great number of things very well. But border security may not necessarily be one of its forts or one of its best uses.

Barry Hess:
I think I tend to agree. It's probably not its best use. But it might be a good stop gap. I think realistically where the state of Arizona comes in it should be under the Department of Public Safety. But I would also encourage and shut down the border instantly. I am on the one who put a time limit on it. Give congress 60 days after an inauguration. If they don't come up with the comprehensive program that's going to work, then, I would take sovereignty rights and turn it over to the legislature for 60 days.

Michael Grant:
How do you shut down the border immediately?

Barry Hess:
With manpower is the only thing we have got now. I happen to agree with the technologies that we have. We can intercept and interdict before anybody gets to the border. That's more reasonable than trying to -- it sure is. But we have also got those rampaging Canadians on the other end of the country to worry about. The reality is we have got to shut it down. We have the known roots down because those inaccessible areas are inaccessible to the bad guys as well.

Michael Grant:
Incidentally, let's stick with the Arizona Mexico border. We can --

Len Munsil:
Don't need to go north just yet.

Michael Grant:
Later. The appropriate role of the National Guard, I get the impression that you actually want it there with guns and weaponry.

Len Munsil:
I would want to work with the Federal Government to allow us to supplement their efforts to secure the border. The problem with the governor's response on this issue, she says that, oh, yeah, I was, I didn't think a fence alone was enough but she vetoed the other thing she was talking about. She vetoed the use of radar technology at the border. She vetoed sending the Arizona National Guard to the border and waited back and waited for the Federal Government to finally do something. The lives of our citizens are affected. And you know, it's not enough, it's not just that she's failed to secure the border. After four years in office. It's that she's rolled out welcome mat and just like she doesn't want us to remember that a few years ago she said it was an extreme measure to put the guard at the border she is now claiming it was her plan. She doesn't want people to remember the main thing she said about immigration, early in her term, is we ought to provide driver's licenses for illegal aliens and vetoed a subsidized in state tuition for people here unlawfully. Those are the facts. That is the report of this governor. And in an election year, hour tune has changed quite a bit.

Janet Napolitano:
Again, let's go back to the actual facts. My opponents haven't actually worked on the border. They have no immigration traffic record. They have done nothing. And so they are new to this issue. But what I have constantly said is the federal government needs to take the leading road here, the lead in the war because it's a federal border and I say that as a former united states attorney who supervised the prosecution of over 6,000 illegal immigration cases.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you have said that but I think a lot of Arizonans, not disagreeing with that point, though, say, hold it, we have had a serious failure federally and it's still our state.

Janet Napolitano:
And that is why we have put fraudulent I.D. task forces down there, stolen vehicle task forces down there, gang task forces. We have increased the size of the Department of Public Safety by 62 percent in three years to help us deal with border and border-related crime. So we have been working steadily. And every day, to make sure that we are securing that border between the ports of entry. But you are not going to just do it in 60 days, as Barry suggests, and you know, the entity, the person who will oppose Len the most on arming the National Guard at the border will be the president of the United States. Because he believes, and I support him, that he has struck the appropriate balance for what the guard needs to do down there, to free up the border patrols, to actually provide the law enforcement at the border.

Michael Grant: All right. Listen, I need to shift to some other subjects. Let's go to tax questions, infrastructure questions, some related subjects there. Mr. Hess, what's your overall tax strategy? Elected governor, resist the notion here to say no taxes whatsoever. Give me an idea where Barry Hess is on overall tax policy.

Barry Hess:
Overall tax policy is changing them immediately to conform them to the constitutional requirements. I believe the single most self destructive policy to hit this country was the I am position of a an income tax. No one can find authority for something that didn't exist before 1913 and eight Supreme Court cases say it doesn't exist after the fact and not even because of the rogue agents who routinely destroy marriages and businesses. My concern goes to the heart of the a matter, the family values. I think for the first time in American history it required a two paycheck family to support a home and it took our moms out of the homes and left our latch key children to the mercy of Jerry Springer to teach them morals and values. I think it's exhibiting itself in our young people today. So I want to work toward eliminating income tax and what we will find is that any time these politicians want to attract a news business, what do they do? They offer them an income tax break. I want to offer that to everyone. At the same time that is country founded own one single premise and that's respect for private property ownership rights. I want to eliminate the property property tax altogether. In the interim, of course, offering vouchers or anything to offset, which forces more money into the legislative budget so it forces the legislature to prioritize. Right 94 it's just spends, spend, spend, spend, spend, add, add, add, add, add. I would like them to go back and look at all old programs in order to add new programs.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, off 10-year plan to phase out income tax. Will it work? How do you replace those revenues?

Len Munsil:
I think the key thing, Michael, is to have continual pressure to reduce taxes to spur economic activity in our state. I do believe in tax cuts. And I do support moving in the direction of eliminating the state income tax. We are going to continue to see economic growth in our state. You have states like Florida, New Hampshire, many states that don't have a state income tax and I would like to move in the direction of reducing tax, spurring our economy, continue to have economic growth. That is, again, a clear contrast between me and the incumbent governor because she has fought every single tax decrease and only relented as part of negotiations. She said that the tax cuts proposed this last year were a raid on Arizona's future. And it presents a different philosophy, a different mindset. The tax cuts were not as great as they should have been well budget surplus we had but her approach is to figure identity how to spend that money rather than looking at returning it to the taxpayers that were overpaid.

Michael Grant:
How do you replace revenues?

Len Munsil:
Overtime we will see economic growth continue and you will see an increase come in with sales tax. You look at where we have been we had an 8\% top rate a few years ago. And we are down to 5\% and it's going to decrease this next year, thanks to pressure from the legislature, not from this governor. And yet our revenues have accelerated dramatically. So we need to continue to have downward pressure and reduce taxes and that is what will attract businesses to the state of Arizona.

Michael Grant:
You did resist overall tax cuts. And you offered, instead, affirmatively $100 million of more targeted tax cuts. Is that Janet Napolitano's tax philosophy?

Janet Napolitano:
No. But I think what you need to do when you are the governor is you have to balance the budget. I have presented a balanced budget every year to the legislature. And to do that you have to take, think not only of your revenues but of your spending. You know, what somebody who says I want to eliminate the income tax is not tilling you and your question suggests it is, well, you tell me what classrooms are going to be 40 pupils are more because k-12 spending is the biggest single part of your budget. Tell me which prisoners are letting out of prisons. Tell me what people you are kicking out of access. Those are the big elements of a billing budget. If you don't properly gauge revenues and spending in a growing state as ours is you end up with what I inherited when I came in office, a $1.3 billion deficit. I believe in managing the state finances so we keep the tax rate low and competitive, which it is, our per capita spending is the lowest among any state in the country. So we have got things in balance. But we also need to invest. We also need to invest.

Michael Grant:
Let me go back to one of the points Mr. Hess made on opening statement because I think it's well taken. If I recall correctly about four years ago to the day, perhaps, there were four of us gathered around this -- we were, in fact --

Janet Napolitano:
A quadrennial event.

Michael Grant:
We were facing a $1.3 billion deficit. And credits were the great evil. Everyone was, well, couple of people, including yourself were saying we've got to examine the tax code. Then you come back this year with a tax credit package.

Janet Napolitano:
Right. We did look at those things. But, you know, we signed, I proposed for example a sales tax holiday for school supplies. A lot of states have it. It's wonderfully successful. Legislature didn't like that. They proposed something else. That's the give and take that goes on between a legislature governor a and a legislature. When we negotiated the budget this year by the time we got around to negotiating it the revenues in our state had gone way higher than any projections before hand. So we had a lot more flex bill too toe do a lot more different things.

Michael Grant:
Philosophically now do you think that's the better approach? Targeted tax credits to encourage business execute whatever government think is good growth?

Janet Napolitano:
The tax credits that I think are the most beneficial are those that help stimulate jobs and job creation. The sales factor tax, for example, when which I signed last year which resulted in Intel making a decision to build its new domestic fab right here in Arizona. Business property tax reduction. Tax credits for things like solar energy, some of the things that we want to help stimulate in our economy. And they need to be tied to jobs, quality of life. This year, because the revenues were so high, we were able to accompany those kinds of tax relieve measures with income tax cuts. But again, you can't talk about taxes in isolation. And somebody who has not governed doesn't fully appreciate all the demands that are made to educate, to incarcerate, and to provide health care.

Michael Grant:
Let's go to the tax credit plan. A material point is made. I keep hearing radio ads about I think it's a $2 billion business fund in Michigan. Arizona is a wonderful place to live. But we got a lot of competition. And a fair case can be made that tax credits are not the great evil to pull in the right kind of people.

Len Munsil:
I don't think the government should be in the business of picking and choosing winners in the economy, winners and losers. What we to be doing is providing a level playing field. That is what would attract the state of Arizona. When I hear the governor says we did this and we did that with respect to the economic turn around in Arizona, I can't help but think Babe Ruth and I hit 714 home runs in the major leagues. She came into the deficit of this circumstance. She analyzed the economic circumstances and as you indicated a proposed a number of things, put together a commission that proposed raising taxes on a lot of different areas of sales, and the result of that was the legislature said it's dead on arrival. We had federal tax cuts take affect. We have a growing state and the revenues began to come in and now she wants us to forget that her solving our problems was completely wrong and we had this economic policy without any of other policies being implemented. She did oppose even the tax cuts she's taking credit for now.

Michael Grant:
Recognizing you're libertarian, but taking the world as you find it, sometimes do you have to dangle a carrot to get somebody to come here?

Barry Hess:
On the way there. I think the Governor asked a good question about which classrooms would you shut down? I would like to see us move away from the government system completely. Arizona is just one of those unique states, seven or eight, I think, that have a state constitutional provision to provide for government education. It reads that free or nearly free public instruction. I don't have people having trouble investing to their being classes with home schooling. I'm for home schooling, private school, charter school, government schooling, a competitive mix is the only way we will get a decent education here for Arizona. But when she mentioned which prisoners, 60 to 70\% of the prisoners that we are incarcerating are people who smoked a joint or people who are there just for possession of drugs that they used themselves. I think that would be a good place to get those people off the public dole and out into the work force again.

Michael Grant:
Let me go to the related question of infrastructure improvement. We are expecting 8 million more people in the next 20, 30 years. Infrastructure is being strained, particularly the road system. Maricopa County voters have taxed themselves twice to try to support it. We are growing out, though, and a lot of areas like Pinal County don't have the sales tax base to do that. And we need take a serious look at some sort of state mechanism to start doing things like widening I-17, improving the roads in a growing Phoenix metropolitan area and a number of other needs?

Len Munsil:
Michael, we have a lot of infrastructure problems in our state related to growth that have not been addressed adequately. As a native Arizonan, I have watched in amazement as time after time we build a freeway and it's immediately full, immediately overtaxed with population that we have. We have done a very poor job as a state. In long-term planning looking ahead to trying to plan for all of the people who are coming here. But one of the things that we need to remember when we talk about infrastructure needs of our state, and this affects a lot of other areas including education, is that our inability of our failure to secure the border affects the people of Arizona. It affects our quality of life. And it affects the infrastructure needs in our state. We have got to begin with securing the border. It's going to affect many other aspects of our life.

Michael Grant:
Dedicated tax. State line to support, for example, road infrastructure improvements?

Janet Napolitano: I don't know if that's the way to go, Michael. I think, though, that time stuck in traffic is a time tax. And for people who are traveling to and fro work or trying to pick up the kids from school or what have you, their time is almost their most precious commodity. We are working to see what we can do to accelerate current road. Projects already on the books. We were able this year to put an additional $307 million into transportation to accelerate projects on I-10, I-17. In the valley but also throughout the rest of Arizona because there are transportation issues there as well.

Michael Grant:
Should that be a consistent priority?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I think it's going to have to be. But I think it has to be done in congestion with where our projected population growth is going to be and correlating that with issues about water, water planning, we have been doing a lot on that but we will need water infrastructure. We are going to need to be able to move water from one part of the state to the other as we move along. We need to be talking about the management of public lands and preservation of open space because many of us choose to live in Arizona because we want access to open space. We have to take that into account. We need to be planning where we are well George Gascon to build our schoolings, where our hospitals and emergency rooms are going to be located. That all goes into really thinking long term about the future of Arizona. Where is Arizona going to be in the year 2040? 2050? How do we get there?

Michael Grant:
One place we are going to be we will have a lot more people. Do we focus more state level resources on what I think up to this point in time is often been thought of as local infrastructure issues?

Barry Hess:
Local infrastructures that are combined ends up being the whole statewide but there is a place I think for statewide planning to make sure that people can get from one area of Arizona without telling that's where we wanted to you grow. It will be filled if we will just get government out of the way so that individuals or companies want to build private roads, it's been very successful in California in particular and highly urban congested areas. The private roads rights most successful. And I wouldn't have any problem with encouraging that and if they want to make a profit ought it so much the better.

Michael Grant:
Let me shift to education and, unfortunately, going to have to get into the subject of school safety. It's been a terrible couple of weeks. Obviously, schools and school districts maintain emergency response plans. There's a lot of local options in them as to what additional security measures they take. Metal detectors, police on campus, those kinds of things. Nobody wants to go here but the lessons unfortunately we have learned in the past couple of weeks, do we start, need to start mandating more school security measures for our schools and school districts?

Janet Napolitano:
No. I thought about that. And I still think that that needs to be considered within the context of an individual school or school district and community. Because Arizona is such a, such a diverse place. When I was attorney general, we crafted a school safety manual for schools. And one of the things that I have asked and talked to the Attorney General about yesterday and have sent some letters out, lets make sure those have been kept updated. Let's make sure people are making sure our children are safe in schools because one thing a parent needs to have assures rance of when the child goes to school the child will be safe. That process needs and is under way as we speak.

Michael Grant:
I certainly appreciate the local control aspect but I think probably people in rural Pennsylvania thought they were safe as well.

Janet Napolitano:
Yeah. And so you want to say, well, what is it that exactly you would mandate statewide? Would you mandate --

Michael Grant:
Metal detectors?

Janet Napolitano:
Yes. But in schools that have metal detectors what you find talking to people there you have a metal detector they find a way around it. So it's really focusing people, leadership. Our teachers, our principal, our parents, our community leaders, lieutenants make sure, let's wrap our arms around our schools make sure they are safe as possible.

Michael Grant:
School safety.

Len Munsil:
Yeah, obviously, it's tragic that we have to even think about those issues. And it speaks to where we are as a culture compared to 40 or 50 years ago that we have people coming in on a regular basis and committing these acts of violence. I do think when you look at issues like metal detectors we have them in our federal buildings. We have them at the airport and the State Capital where the Governor works. I think that's something we need to look at in our public schools. No one should have any fear or concern sending their students to a public school that there's an act of violence is going to come upon them there. I think that's something we need to look at.

Michael Grant:
What do you think, Mr. Hess?

Barry Hess:
I think we have created all kinds of disarmed victim zones and we have seen it here. The one in Pennsylvania, because of the culture, was very unique. Because that's generally a very pacifist group and it couldn't be foreseen. That's one of the hazards of day to day life. Government can't make you safe. It's like the police force. They become crime scene protectors. They are always there after someone is harmed. Of course, I am going to advocate making sure that the second amendment is always respected so that people can protect themselves and their families but also if they choose not a carry a firearm, the bad guys don't know who it is it tends to discourage them. They will either go away by discouragement or demise. The last one in the spat of them when we had all the school shootings three or four or five together, it was interceded quite accidentally where an armed individual was able to stop and it they stopped until this one. And I think it's really important if we get back to people understanding that person over there across the table may well, able to defend themselves, the bad guys go away. They always say you don't find a renegade shooter on a firing range. There's a reason for that.

Michael Grant:
English language learning, Federal Court is going to take that issue back up in January, take a look at what Arizona has done in the past six years, whether or not we are spending adequate resource on English language learners. What's Len Munsil's position on where the court should go?

Len Munsil:
First of all, I have to point out again like many, many other issues if with we had done a better job securing our border that's another area where citizens of Arizona are paying the consequences. We don't turn people away at schoolhouse door so once they are here when we have not done our job to security border we end up paying a lot of additional costs. I thought the proposal that the legislature had was legitimate. I can't believe that we would ski to an unelected federal judge the power to determine how we are going to solve problems like that. It's one of the issues I have been active in over the years opposing activist judges imposing their will on the people using some flimsy constitutional excuse. That not only did that happen, Michael, in this case but our Governor and our Attorney General went along with it. And we are happy to have the federal judge making decisions for the people of Arizona because she didn't like the decisions that the legislature -- she didn't want to negotiate with the legislature anymore. She wanted the federal judge to make the decision. Fortunately that decision was overturned by the Ninth Circuit. We will have another crack at it.

Michael Grant:
Governor, Ninth Circuit has said state Arizona of ought to be given a shot at demonstrating that a number of things it's done in the past six years or so, the dedicated sales tax for teacher's salaries increased revenues from state land, the students first building program are enough down there. You have taken a strong position they are not enough. Is that the position you will anyway January?

Janet Napolitano:
Here is what needs to happen. We have a million children in school in Arizona. About 160,000 don't speak English as their first language. They need to learn how to read, write, and speak in English as quickly as possible. To be academically competitive to be economically successful. We need to do whatever it takes to get that done. Yes, we are in court. I wish we were not in court. And Len wasn't at the capital. He wasn't party to what was going on. But we were just at an impasse and when you are at an impasse and the issue here are we complying with a federal law, a federal law, that's what federal courts are there to decide. We had asked the federal court earlier to go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. He decided not to. What the Ninth Circuit basically said was let's go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. That's benefit scheduled. But I hope when we start the next session, we can renew this dialogue. People have been meeting, well meaning people have been meeting about this during the interim and if we can get this out of court and back to the capital and get it done and get it done in time for the children who are now in school, that to me would be a satisfactory result.

Michael Grant:
There are some statistics from the Nogales School District that indicate that they have made a remarkable progress.

Janet Napolitano:
And there are statistics from --

Michael Grant:
Of the current funding scheme.

Janet Napolitano:
There are old statistics but there are statistics from other districts and recognize this is the whole state not just Nogales that would say otherwise. Does and that's why we now have a committee that's meeting. I have made several appointments to it. The legislature made several appointments to it. The superintendent made several appointments to it. I have asked them to take an objective look at the actual data. What does it cost in the year 2006 to make sure that a youngster learns to read, write, and speak in English? That at ought to be our criterion.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
I think it's really interesting because here we have the state getting involved in something it has no business getting involved in. I have had the opportunity to travel around world and I would never once been in a country where they provided me with French language learning or German language learning or anything else and neither should we. That should fall to those people who recognize the need. And they do recognize the need and let them band together and form their own way, their own method of learning English. Because that's when the parents start putting emphasis on it and parts of our problem in education is we have got a whole generation people my age with kids who don't appreciate education because they're looking for mommy government to provide it. When they know that it's a source of pride or something they can develop on their own, they learn better. Everyone knows that if you want to learn something, you learn far better than trying to cram it into their head. And it just seems to be ludicrous to have the state involved in alternate languages and not including all 144 languages in the country. At the very least. It just seems silly for us to even be involved in going into the Spanish language.

Michael Grant:
Only got about a minute and a half total time left. Give me 30 seconds on this. Corporate tuition tax credits for private scholarship funds. Do you support?

Barry Hess:
Absolutely. Have to support it. That's one of the good areas because what I would like to see is our school system based upon a competency exam so that you, work in your butt off, you get straight A's, I'm slacking we get the same diploma. This somehow seems inequitable. I would like to see an exterior 10 see exam that stayed voluntary so parents could zero in exactly where their kids needed the help and at some point employers would say, we want you because you are competent in these areas. That's when they would form corporate schools.

Len Munsil:
I am a strong supporter of educational choice. I believe we have to do a lot of things to strengthen public education in the state of Arizona including merit pay for teachers who are doing the best job of educating our kids but I fought to defend those tax credits in the Arizona Supreme Court and I believe very strongly that school choice and parental options in education should not be the exclusive province of the wealthy.

Michael Grant:
You oppose them. Why?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I agreed to some too business tax credits. I have a pilot to see if they do make a difference but we have lots of choice within the public schools in Arizona. We have open enrollment. We have charter schools. We have the most charter schools of any state in the country. The plain fact of the matter is as the overwhelming majority of our children are going to be he would indicated in the public schools. And we need to make sure that these public schools are as good as they can be. And that the children graduating from those public schools are ready to go on to community college, to university, or to mier technical education because that's when what our 21st century economy is going to demand.

Michael Grant:
Ok. Well, the clock is demanding that we close this phase of the debate. And we are out of time for this debate between the candidates running for governor. Each candidate will now have two minutes for a closing statement, once again, under certified circumstances the order of presentation was chosen randomly, I am checking my notes, Mr. Munsil, you go first.

Len Munsil:
Yes. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate the chance to be with you and talk about the issues important to our state. You know, when I got into the race for governor somebody meet me and my family and they said with eight kids if you can govern a family of 10, you can -- governor of the state of Arizona ought to be a piece of cake. Well, I don't go that far. There's a lot of issues that face us as a people. But I think the values that I represent, the core values that I represent of limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, of the need to secure the border of the state of Arizona, a tough approach to crime, appointing judges who are tough on crime and the centrality of the family, I believe strongly that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. And that's what I would represent. By contrast, I think we have a governor who has demonstrated herself to be outside the mainstream of the people of Arizona. A record breaking number of vetoes in one term of office. A failure to adequately address border security in the state of Arizona. No one questions it's the federal government's responsibility. But when they don't do their job, and the lives of Arizonans are affected, the question is what does the governor do? And we have had a governor who has pointed the finger of blame everywhere else. We have seen that on issue after issue. Worst crime rate in the nation, we have a governor who has been a career politician now 12 years in office with law enforcement authority and yet we have seen the state of Arizona deteriorate into that in time to having the worst crime rate in the nation. What's your plan to deal with that? Education, child protective services, we have a -- again a. Governor who promised to fix them and yet we continue to have major struggles in both of those areas. This governor vetoed efforts to protect gun owners' rights in times of emergency. This governor vetoed efforts to allow parents for involved in their daughter's abortion to the ability to consent to that. On issue after issue that affects the state we continue to struggle and gun I come back, the economy has improved in it's only because we ignored the economic proposals of this governor. If you believe as I do that we can do better, I would welcome your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Your closing statement.

Janet Napolitano:
Well, again, I think that the facts of my record are very strong. We have done more on illegal immigration than any admission and we are doing more every day. My opponents haven't been to the border. They haven't worked on this issue. That's one of the many differences between us. I believe in Arizona. I believe in our past. I believe in our future. Our future that is bright. A future as a growth state, a future that is going to be built on a 21st century economy. That's why we have managed the state to work on education, to improve higher education, to bring in high-tech business, to create more jobs. This economy has created 330,000 new jobs and we are on our way to creating almost 150,000 more jobs per capita income going up. Yes, we have challenges. We have challenges. But we're not going to beat those challenges and get over those obstacles by tearing each other down. I am a builder. I am a builder. I believe in Arizona. I believe I am helping to build a new state. I would like your support and your vote to help lead you in that effort going forward.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
You know, as one of the issues that we didn't get to talk about which I think is significant is healthcare and one of the simple solutions is not trying to get more money out of the working population for the nonworking population. It realistically could be to get government regulation out of healthcare. The figures always seem to come back we could lessen the cost of our healthcare 60 to 70\%. That's significant. People could afford their healthcare off the their hip pockets if that's the case. I think it's really important when we talk about the budget, we supposedly have this surplus. I'm finding it difficult to believe. As an English major, not a math major but I can count. Reality is how can you possibly have a surplus when you have outstanding liabilities? Unless they are paid in full and that would mean if we slut down government today nobody would come looking for money. Obviously not the case. There is no surplus. I think its smoke and mirrors. In education, I think we could look at the progress of the student and focus there, not on preserving the administrative process of administration. I mean the reality is what we are seeing is politicians doing what politicians do. They divide us up into groups, pit us against each other and then offer to referee. And I am pretty sick and tired of that kind of thing. And I think we need a uniter. The governor can't work with this legislature and we have heard the legislature can't work with this governor unfortunately. As a libertarian I am free look at good ideas without fear of political repercussions or reprisals. I think that I offer that to Arizona. I don't want to say at this point to say that I had political experience to me, would be the last thing I would want on my resume. That would say, to say I could thrive in a corrupt system could say only one thing about my personal character and that's not what I want to say about my character. I hope that people will take the time to find out more about all of the candidates and visit us at www.hessforgovernor.com and I promise you we would be able to give you something you seldom see in this state and that's to be able to cast a vote you will never have to apologize or excuse and you will never be called upon to defend. And to the Latinos -- [speaking to Spanish] thank you very much.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, thank you very much. I am glad you dropped the website reference because we have had that every night this week.

Barry Hess:
I saw Jan doing it.

Michael Grant:
I would have missed it. Mr. Munsil, thank you very much for joining us. And Governor Janet Napolitano, our thanks to you as well. Best of luck to awful you on the campaign trail. That concludes our clean elections debates for the candidates running for statewide offices. You can watch the debates again or you can get information about the statewide races, propositions and congressional races at our website. Here right details.

Mike Sauceda:
To get to the Horizon vote 2006 website, go to the Eight website at azpbs.org. Click on vote 2006. That will take to you our Horizon Vote 2006 home page which is loaded with features to help you as you prepare to cast your ballot. One of the most prominent features is top videos of the top videos feature; you can view past Horizon election shows. The five tabs on the upper part of the screen allow to you access all the information you need on the propositions, statewide races, the U.S. senate race, congressional races, and clean elections debates. For example, if you click on the proposition tab, you will get a list of propositions that will appear on the November ballot. Click on one of the propositions such as prop 100 and you will get links to the text of the proposed amendment, analysis by the legislative counsel, arguments for and against the measure, the official ballot language and dates of town halls on the measure. On the Horizon Vote 2006 website, you can also access online videos, RSS feeds, podcasts and Cronkite Eight Poll. A couple of other features, my ballot, a print a-form to remind you of your choices as you vote. You can also check out when to watch Horizon election coverage.

Michael Grant:
Thanks very much for joining us for these gubernatorial debates. Hope you can join us tomorrow for the Friday edition of Horizon when we will recap the week's news events. Mike Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

Taxes and State Infrastructure


Guests:
  • Governor Janet Napolitano - Democratic incumbent
  • Len Munsil - Republican candidate
  • Barry Hess - Libertarian candidate
Category:

View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight a Horizon special. With immigration topping the list of issues impacting Arizona, three people are seeking the reins of the state. Immigration just one issue with which the next governor will have to deal. There's also the education of English learners and the controversy that arise suddenly like the 9/11 memorial. A debate between the three candidates running for governor. That's next on Horizon.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Arizona's governor can be elected for up to two four-year terms as the representative of one of the three branches of government. The governor has many duties which impact your lives. The governor annually recommending to the state legislature a budget and suggestions for new laws. Chief executive also serves as commander in chief of the state's militia, appoints judges and members of state regulatory boards and commissions and state department heads. There are three people running for governor. In a few moments they will debate the issues but first here's a look at each candidate.

Mike Sauceda:
Barry Hess is 49 and resides in Phoenix. He is a currency trader. He is married and has a son. He is not running as a clean elections candidate. Len Munsil lives in Scottsdale and is 42 years old. He is an attorney. He is married and has eight children. Munsil is running with clean elections funding. Janet Napolitano is 49 years old and a resident of Phoenix. She is an attorney, is not married and has no children. She is running as a clean elections candidate.

Michael Grant:
Joining me now is libertarian candidate Barry Hess, the Republican Challenger Len Munsil and Democratic Incumbent Janet Napolitano. Tonight's debate sponsored by Arizona's citizens clean elections commission. Also sponsoring the debate is Arizona State University. Each candidate has a couple of minutes to make an opening statement. The order of presentation chosen right before the show randomly, certified by an accounting firm. And Barry, you get to open.

Barry Hess:
Here we go. You know, I'm really proud to be the only nonparticipating in the clean elections scheme of things. Because I think it's a little hypocritical and unethical to be able to tell people that I am going to help lessen their burden by taking more of their money so it makes me very proud to be the only one running a clean campaign. Without taking campaign money. It's amazing because I'm no psychic but I can tell you exactly what's going to happen here tonight. We are going to have a democrat and she is going to tell you that she knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard-earned money better than you can. The republican is going to be a little bit different. He is going to tell you he knows how to run your life, raise and educate your children and spend your hard earned money better than the democrat. As the libertarian, I have to tell you the truth. These are things that only you and I as responsible parents and community members can do no matter how much money we throw at it; no matter how much we wish it to be true. It still falls back to our personal responsibility. As a libertarian I am the keeper of a sacred trust between the people themselves and their servant government. And I hope to do a good job at illustrating what that means. Four years ago, we were promised out of the box thinking. We ended up with just a bigger box. We were also told that our failing schools that were ranked on some of the levels at 44th in the nation that were going to be made better. Our governor promised that she was going to make them better giving it all of her time, her talent and her abilities and I believe she did. It just wasn't good enough. We are now ranked 50th or 49th fit makes people feel better. I would like to see the argument change not to 49th or 50th but first or second. I believe very firmly education should be the center post of every single campaign at election of time these are the people who are going to be running this place when you and I are too old and gray to do anything about it and I want them 10 times smarter and more competent than I could ever hope to be. I hope tonight's debate will give you some of the ideas that will show you how getting government out of the way and respecting our constitution and your individual rights is exactly what we are all about. And I hope that you will see that very clearly. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Good evening. Your opening.

Janet Napolitano:
Thank you very much. You know, for the past three and a half years I have had the honor and privilege as serve go as your governor. When I took office Arizona was not in very good shape. We were over $1 billion in deficit. Our economy was not moving. We had just come out of the alternative fuels fiasco. Now we have over $1 billion surplus. We have invested in education. All day kindergarten, $100 million for teacher pay raises. We set aside $400 million to build new research labs at our universities and a new medical center in Downtown Phoenix. And we are just getting started. The economy that was not moving very fast three, three and a half years ago is now ranked as the number one forward momentum economy in the United States. And our per capita income the first half of 2006 went up faster than any other state in the country. So we have made great progress. But this campaign and this election is about the future. What is our future? To me there are three huge challenges that we must confront: education, Barry mentioned it. We have a lot left to do. We have focused on k-3, kindergarten, whatever but now we need math and science and higher education. Economic growth, jobs, throughout the state of Arizona, and then we must deal with the issue of growth. We are expected to double in population over the next 30 to 40 years. We need to get ahead. Transportation, water planning, open space, all of the issues that go into creating quality communities and to having that unique Arizona quality of life that we have all come to so appreciate. There's a lot of work to be done. A lot has been done but if we work together, we will make Arizona a number one state in this country. And that is my goal for all of us. I would appreciate your support and your help for another four years.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, good evening.

Len Munsil:
Good evening, Michael.

Michael Grant:
You're opening statement.

Len Munsil:
Thank you. My name is Len Munsil; I am the republican candidate for governor of Arizona. I am a native Arizonan, third generation of the state. One of the great joys I have experienced over the last eight months is traveling the state of Arizona, getting the chance to talk to tens of thousands of individual citizens in homes, at community events, learning what's on their heart, their desires, their hopes, their dreams for the state of Arizona. I am, I have been here, a lot of people came here to move to the state of Arizona because it's a great place to live. I have been here and chose to stay here and raise my family here. And I met my wife Tracy right here at Arizona State University. I am a graduate of our public school system. Of our public universities. We have been married more than 20 years and have eight children. When I look at my kids I think of the future of our state and what kind of quality of life they will have here. I believe very strongly that the core values that I represent, limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, the need to secure the border, a tough approach to crime, appointing conservative judges who will be tough on crime, and the centrality of the family, that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. I think they provide a stark contrast with the values of our current governor. We have seen that on issue after issue affecting the state of Arizona, beginning with the border, we have not secured our board. There's been no change over four years in the number of illegal crossings into our state and that affects the quality of life for all of us. We have the worst crime rate in the nation in the state of Arizona. We have other areas like education, child protective service where this governor said vote for me. Elect me and I will improve things. I will be the education governor. And yet as Barry indicated we have many problems yet to solve. I believe that we can do better in the state of Arizona. The one area we've improved going from a deficit to a surplus only happened because we ignored this governor's economic plan in this governor's economic principles. We can do better in the state of Arizona. If you agree with me, and believe that we can do better for our state, I hope to have your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Thank you. All right. Let's dive into it. I'm always fascinated in election cycles that come up that you simply cannot anticipate. The 9/11 memorial has been capturing a lot of attention in the past weeks. Mr. Munsil you have been accused of politicizing that issue. Have you politicized it?

Len Munsil:
No. I believe the people who politicized it right people who got out there and created a memorial that has a tax on America, attacks on the military, as I said at our press conference, it would be as if we built a memorial to Pearl Harbor and the focus of the memorial was Japanese interment camps. It totally represents a Michael Moore moveon.org out of touch approach to an issue like that. This was meant to honor the families and the victims of those who perished on 9/11. And it does not do that. And I have looked into the eyes of family members of 9/11 victims. I have looked into the eyes of those whose children were lost responding to what happened on 9/11. And I think as I talked about in my opening core values matter here. And we have a governor that embraced that memorial, that stood out there and said this is my commission, this is something I support. It's a great memorial. Totally missing the fact that it offends a lot of people. And I strongly disagree with that.

Michael Grant:
Don't you think bulldozing it might be a sort of an extreme --

Len Munsil:
I said there are elements of it that should be kept but if you look ate overall as a whole it's not just two or three inscriptions it's as if we want to approach teaching our children -- the governor talked about that -- for generations they will learn about 9/11 from this. What they will learn is tolerance for terrorists and the view of the world that doesn't understand we were attacked by people who killed innocent Americans and we don't, we don't need to treat the memory of the victims that way.

Michael Grant: Governor Napolitano, let me go to you. You seemed to embrace the memorial initially. Backed away from that. Said it's really a matter for the commission. Where are you now?

Janet Napolitano: No, I am embraced the memorial but we do no honor to the victims of 9/11 by injecting this into the middle of a gubernatorial campaign. The commission was independent, half appointed by me, half appointed by Governor Hull, and chaired by a firefighter. On the commission were people who had lost loved ones in the World Trade Center. People who had gone back to New York City and to Pennsylvania to clean up the wreckage of those terrible terrorist acts. And the memorial was well intentioned, and the design overall is a very, very good design. The chair of the commission has already said after the election they will take into account some of the comments made and if the memorial can be made better it will be. I was reminded when the Vietnam War Memorial was first built on the Capitol. People didn't like it. It was different. It was new. It was considered disrespectful of those who had given their lives in Vietnam. And the end result was after the political hullabaloo died down there were changes made around that memorial. And today it's most frequently visited memorial on the Capitol Mall in Washington, and a very moving place and the 9/11 Memorial on our capital lawn is as well.

Michael Grant:
Would you encourage the commission to make changes to the 9/11 Memorial similar to the ones you just mentioned for the Vietnam Memorial?

Janet Napolitano:
I encourage the commission to go at it with an open mind. There are people very different points of view at this point and to make their best judgments for what is an appropriate and what is a good memorial. But if you go to the memorial and many people who are criticizing it haven't even actually been there. You can't but be moved by the world trade center piece that is in there, by the fact there its dirt from the field in Pennsylvania in there, and by the intention and respect for the victims that the commission exhibited.

Michael Grant:
But no more guidance from the governor's office than that? Study it carefully, but I have no instructions for you?

Janet Napolitano:
Not at this time, no.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, what do you think about the 9/11 Memorial?

Barry Hess: I was kind of saddened to see it back part of this campaign. We should be talking about the monuments costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars that have football teams and baseball teams in them. But when it really comes down to the monument we have to first determine what it is. If it is there to honor innocent lives lost, then absolutely, some of the offensive statements should go. But if it's there to memorialize an event, around which there are all kinds of questions and dubious official explanations as to what actually happened, then it very much, they are well placed because there is an outrage that comes with it. Where we don't have all the facts as people. So we first have to determine what it is and then go from there. And as governor I would keep my hands off. The commission should be left to do what it will do.

Michael Grant: Let me go to immigration. Four propositions, ballot-related, governor, on the -- on November's ballot. You have vetoed two of them, forms of two of them, official English and also the expansion proposition 200. You recommend Arizona voters veto them as well?

Janet Napolitano: Well, I recommend that Arizona voters look at the immigration issue as a whole. It needs have several components to it. We need to secure the border between the points of entry. I was one of the first two governors to declare a state of emergency. The first governor to ask that the president put the National Guard on the border and pay for it. I was the first governor to set up task forces along the border on stolen vehicle theft, fraudulent I.D. and the like. And when you to go the border, if you go there now and I go there on a regular basis, it is a very different place than it was 18 months ago, a year ago, and indeed, the numbers of illegal immigrant apprehensions are steadily going down. We need that. I am pleased to see and was pleased to stand with the president yesterday to get more resources at our border but we also need comprehensive immigration reform. That's what's really going to turn the tide here, not referenda on the ballot.

Michael Grant:
So people should not vote for English only, and an expansion of proposition 200?

Janet Napolitano:
Well my vetoes speak for themselves but you know what? If the people disagree with me and they have from time to time I will respect the will of the people.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, how do you feel about official English and expansion of the benefits that illegal aliens could qualify for here in the state of Arizona?

Barry Hess:
I think the question of official English is American English but part of the enabling act that made Arizona a state in the first place and no one seems to go back to that. I think we have breached the contract if we try to add any more languages. I am for one single language, a common language in the nation. I think that's very important in terms of binding people as far as the entitlements, if you didn't pay in you shouldn't take out. What no one wants to talk about on the border issues are the effect of NAFTA where we end up dumping all kinds of produce on South America and selling it in their markets for less than they can raise it for. We put 2 million Mexican farmers out of work and of course they head for the cities to water down the labor pool. And then American companies, as part of NAFTA, close down shop here with all minimum wages and all the other nonsensical restrictions and relocate there. So that's where we shipped off a lot of jobs and then the overflow heads north. You certainly can't fault someone for trying to take care of their family. And I wouldn't. My only concern on the border realistically is to stop people from dying in the desert or be falling prey to the coyotes and those people who would represent us in a serious security threat to the physical property or persons of Americans. As far as making the entitlement programs real, we take the honey pot out off the front yard those pesky bears from across the road might stop coming around and the reality is the best way to do it is not to try to clamp down or strong arm them but to make these programs absolutely voluntary. Membership only. You don't have the card you don't get in. Doesn't matter where you are from.

Michael Grant:
English only expansion proposition 200 benefits?

Len Munsil:
I support this proposition. But I think really this speaks to the governor's leadership style. She wants to be on both sides of every issue. We see it with 9/11 where she took responsibility for the commission. She went out and said this is my commission; this is a great monument and now things go south and suddenly it's the commission's problem, move on. Let them deal with it. We see that in the same way with this issue of border security. This Governor has done nothing to make our borders more secure. All of the things that she described to you add up to a big fat zero because of the same number of people that are crossing unlawfully today as there were four years ago. So we see that repeatedly. This issue yesterday with her inviting herself to a photo op with the President of the United States on a bill that provided money for a border fence when this governor was quoted by Senator Ted Kennedy on the floor of the senate with her famous statement that you build a 50-foot wall and I will show a 51-foot ladder she's mocked the very idea of the fence that the president was there to sign a bill for. And that's not leadership. Leadership is looking at the issue of border security and saying, what can I do as governor of Arizona to protect the lives and property of the citizens of our state? Because that's an issue that affects all of us. It certainly affects the people who live near the border. It affects people who are dealing with the educators I have talked to who are dealing with kids who are plopped in their classroom who don't speak English a and at the same time you have doctors -- I talked to doctors who are going to leave the state because they are being sued by illegal aliens they treated for free. People want a governor highways doing more than point the finger at Washington.

Michael Grant:
Have you changed your position on --

Janet Napolitano:
No. Let me give the people of Arizona the facts. First of all, I was have there at the invitation of the President. Why? Because I have been working very closely with the administration on securing our border between the ports of entry. And I believe, as he does, that we must have comprehensive immigration reform. And that gets to the quote about the wall. Yes, I said, you show me a 50-foot wall I will show a 51-foot ladder if all you do is a wall. But if you have fencing and radar and cameras, and manpower all of which are pouring into the Arizona Sonora border right now and you couple that with the temporary worker program and comprehensive immigration reform, then, you have got a real immigration plan that can work. I have been relentless on those issues for the last four years and contrary to what's been stated the fact really are that the border is much safer now. It is more secure. We have more to do. We are going to keep ate every day put one foot in front of the other.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you did, though, refer about three years ago to use of the National Guard on the border as, I think pretty close quote was, an extreme measure. And then it was in your state of the state address earlier this year. Why the shift?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, when the initial proposal was made to put the guard at the border it was for the state of Arizona taxpayers to have to pay for it. And in my view, we must keep pounding on Washington, D.C. because we never get reimbursed from Washington, D.C. once we take the lead that's money out of our treasury. I want to keep pounding on Washington, D.C. second thing was three years ago we were being given assurances about the thousands of new border patrol agents that would be coming to the Arizona Sonora border. In point of fact it's taken much longer than anybody anticipated to get those agents hired, trained, and deployed to do border. So the plan that was developed and the plan that is embodied right now at the border is to send the guard down to take, offload responsibilities from the border patrol so they can focus exclusively on interdicting illegal immigrants and that's why the traffic has gone down.

Michael Grant:
I will cycle that. We will spend some time on this. But Mr. Hess, what about use the guard on the border? There are a lot of people who suggest that the National Guard is a valuable asset. Can do a great number of things very well. But border security may not necessarily be one of its forts or one of its best uses.

Barry Hess:
I think I tend to agree. It's probably not its best use. But it might be a good stop gap. I think realistically where the state of Arizona comes in it should be under the Department of Public Safety. But I would also encourage and shut down the border instantly. I am on the one who put a time limit on it. Give congress 60 days after an inauguration. If they don't come up with the comprehensive program that's going to work, then, I would take sovereignty rights and turn it over to the legislature for 60 days.

Michael Grant:
How do you shut down the border immediately?

Barry Hess:
With manpower is the only thing we have got now. I happen to agree with the technologies that we have. We can intercept and interdict before anybody gets to the border. That's more reasonable than trying to -- it sure is. But we have also got those rampaging Canadians on the other end of the country to worry about. The reality is we have got to shut it down. We have the known roots down because those inaccessible areas are inaccessible to the bad guys as well.

Michael Grant:
Incidentally, let's stick with the Arizona Mexico border. We can --

Len Munsil:
Don't need to go north just yet.

Michael Grant:
Later. The appropriate role of the National Guard, I get the impression that you actually want it there with guns and weaponry.

Len Munsil:
I would want to work with the Federal Government to allow us to supplement their efforts to secure the border. The problem with the governor's response on this issue, she says that, oh, yeah, I was, I didn't think a fence alone was enough but she vetoed the other thing she was talking about. She vetoed the use of radar technology at the border. She vetoed sending the Arizona National Guard to the border and waited back and waited for the Federal Government to finally do something. The lives of our citizens are affected. And you know, it's not enough, it's not just that she's failed to secure the border. After four years in office. It's that she's rolled out welcome mat and just like she doesn't want us to remember that a few years ago she said it was an extreme measure to put the guard at the border she is now claiming it was her plan. She doesn't want people to remember the main thing she said about immigration, early in her term, is we ought to provide driver's licenses for illegal aliens and vetoed a subsidized in state tuition for people here unlawfully. Those are the facts. That is the report of this governor. And in an election year, hour tune has changed quite a bit.

Janet Napolitano:
Again, let's go back to the actual facts. My opponents haven't actually worked on the border. They have no immigration traffic record. They have done nothing. And so they are new to this issue. But what I have constantly said is the federal government needs to take the leading road here, the lead in the war because it's a federal border and I say that as a former united states attorney who supervised the prosecution of over 6,000 illegal immigration cases.

Michael Grant:
Governor, you have said that but I think a lot of Arizonans, not disagreeing with that point, though, say, hold it, we have had a serious failure federally and it's still our state.

Janet Napolitano:
And that is why we have put fraudulent I.D. task forces down there, stolen vehicle task forces down there, gang task forces. We have increased the size of the Department of Public Safety by 62 percent in three years to help us deal with border and border-related crime. So we have been working steadily. And every day, to make sure that we are securing that border between the ports of entry. But you are not going to just do it in 60 days, as Barry suggests, and you know, the entity, the person who will oppose Len the most on arming the National Guard at the border will be the president of the United States. Because he believes, and I support him, that he has struck the appropriate balance for what the guard needs to do down there, to free up the border patrols, to actually provide the law enforcement at the border.

Michael Grant: All right. Listen, I need to shift to some other subjects. Let's go to tax questions, infrastructure questions, some related subjects there. Mr. Hess, what's your overall tax strategy? Elected governor, resist the notion here to say no taxes whatsoever. Give me an idea where Barry Hess is on overall tax policy.

Barry Hess:
Overall tax policy is changing them immediately to conform them to the constitutional requirements. I believe the single most self destructive policy to hit this country was the I am position of a an income tax. No one can find authority for something that didn't exist before 1913 and eight Supreme Court cases say it doesn't exist after the fact and not even because of the rogue agents who routinely destroy marriages and businesses. My concern goes to the heart of the a matter, the family values. I think for the first time in American history it required a two paycheck family to support a home and it took our moms out of the homes and left our latch key children to the mercy of Jerry Springer to teach them morals and values. I think it's exhibiting itself in our young people today. So I want to work toward eliminating income tax and what we will find is that any time these politicians want to attract a news business, what do they do? They offer them an income tax break. I want to offer that to everyone. At the same time that is country founded own one single premise and that's respect for private property ownership rights. I want to eliminate the property property tax altogether. In the interim, of course, offering vouchers or anything to offset, which forces more money into the legislative budget so it forces the legislature to prioritize. Right 94 it's just spends, spend, spend, spend, spend, add, add, add, add, add. I would like them to go back and look at all old programs in order to add new programs.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Munsil, off 10-year plan to phase out income tax. Will it work? How do you replace those revenues?

Len Munsil:
I think the key thing, Michael, is to have continual pressure to reduce taxes to spur economic activity in our state. I do believe in tax cuts. And I do support moving in the direction of eliminating the state income tax. We are going to continue to see economic growth in our state. You have states like Florida, New Hampshire, many states that don't have a state income tax and I would like to move in the direction of reducing tax, spurring our economy, continue to have economic growth. That is, again, a clear contrast between me and the incumbent governor because she has fought every single tax decrease and only relented as part of negotiations. She said that the tax cuts proposed this last year were a raid on Arizona's future. And it presents a different philosophy, a different mindset. The tax cuts were not as great as they should have been well budget surplus we had but her approach is to figure identity how to spend that money rather than looking at returning it to the taxpayers that were overpaid.

Michael Grant:
How do you replace revenues?

Len Munsil:
Overtime we will see economic growth continue and you will see an increase come in with sales tax. You look at where we have been we had an 8\% top rate a few years ago. And we are down to 5\% and it's going to decrease this next year, thanks to pressure from the legislature, not from this governor. And yet our revenues have accelerated dramatically. So we need to continue to have downward pressure and reduce taxes and that is what will attract businesses to the state of Arizona.

Michael Grant:
You did resist overall tax cuts. And you offered, instead, affirmatively $100 million of more targeted tax cuts. Is that Janet Napolitano's tax philosophy?

Janet Napolitano:
No. But I think what you need to do when you are the governor is you have to balance the budget. I have presented a balanced budget every year to the legislature. And to do that you have to take, think not only of your revenues but of your spending. You know, what somebody who says I want to eliminate the income tax is not tilling you and your question suggests it is, well, you tell me what classrooms are going to be 40 pupils are more because k-12 spending is the biggest single part of your budget. Tell me which prisoners are letting out of prisons. Tell me what people you are kicking out of access. Those are the big elements of a billing budget. If you don't properly gauge revenues and spending in a growing state as ours is you end up with what I inherited when I came in office, a $1.3 billion deficit. I believe in managing the state finances so we keep the tax rate low and competitive, which it is, our per capita spending is the lowest among any state in the country. So we have got things in balance. But we also need to invest. We also need to invest.

Michael Grant:
Let me go back to one of the points Mr. Hess made on opening statement because I think it's well taken. If I recall correctly about four years ago to the day, perhaps, there were four of us gathered around this -- we were, in fact --

Janet Napolitano:
A quadrennial event.

Michael Grant:
We were facing a $1.3 billion deficit. And credits were the great evil. Everyone was, well, couple of people, including yourself were saying we've got to examine the tax code. Then you come back this year with a tax credit package.

Janet Napolitano:
Right. We did look at those things. But, you know, we signed, I proposed for example a sales tax holiday for school supplies. A lot of states have it. It's wonderfully successful. Legislature didn't like that. They proposed something else. That's the give and take that goes on between a legislature governor a and a legislature. When we negotiated the budget this year by the time we got around to negotiating it the revenues in our state had gone way higher than any projections before hand. So we had a lot more flex bill too toe do a lot more different things.

Michael Grant:
Philosophically now do you think that's the better approach? Targeted tax credits to encourage business execute whatever government think is good growth?

Janet Napolitano:
The tax credits that I think are the most beneficial are those that help stimulate jobs and job creation. The sales factor tax, for example, when which I signed last year which resulted in Intel making a decision to build its new domestic fab right here in Arizona. Business property tax reduction. Tax credits for things like solar energy, some of the things that we want to help stimulate in our economy. And they need to be tied to jobs, quality of life. This year, because the revenues were so high, we were able to accompany those kinds of tax relieve measures with income tax cuts. But again, you can't talk about taxes in isolation. And somebody who has not governed doesn't fully appreciate all the demands that are made to educate, to incarcerate, and to provide health care.

Michael Grant:
Let's go to the tax credit plan. A material point is made. I keep hearing radio ads about I think it's a $2 billion business fund in Michigan. Arizona is a wonderful place to live. But we got a lot of competition. And a fair case can be made that tax credits are not the great evil to pull in the right kind of people.

Len Munsil:
I don't think the government should be in the business of picking and choosing winners in the economy, winners and losers. What we to be doing is providing a level playing field. That is what would attract the state of Arizona. When I hear the governor says we did this and we did that with respect to the economic turn around in Arizona, I can't help but think Babe Ruth and I hit 714 home runs in the major leagues. She came into the deficit of this circumstance. She analyzed the economic circumstances and as you indicated a proposed a number of things, put together a commission that proposed raising taxes on a lot of different areas of sales, and the result of that was the legislature said it's dead on arrival. We had federal tax cuts take affect. We have a growing state and the revenues began to come in and now she wants us to forget that her solving our problems was completely wrong and we had this economic policy without any of other policies being implemented. She did oppose even the tax cuts she's taking credit for now.

Michael Grant:
Recognizing you're libertarian, but taking the world as you find it, sometimes do you have to dangle a carrot to get somebody to come here?

Barry Hess:
On the way there. I think the Governor asked a good question about which classrooms would you shut down? I would like to see us move away from the government system completely. Arizona is just one of those unique states, seven or eight, I think, that have a state constitutional provision to provide for government education. It reads that free or nearly free public instruction. I don't have people having trouble investing to their being classes with home schooling. I'm for home schooling, private school, charter school, government schooling, a competitive mix is the only way we will get a decent education here for Arizona. But when she mentioned which prisoners, 60 to 70\% of the prisoners that we are incarcerating are people who smoked a joint or people who are there just for possession of drugs that they used themselves. I think that would be a good place to get those people off the public dole and out into the work force again.

Michael Grant:
Let me go to the related question of infrastructure improvement. We are expecting 8 million more people in the next 20, 30 years. Infrastructure is being strained, particularly the road system. Maricopa County voters have taxed themselves twice to try to support it. We are growing out, though, and a lot of areas like Pinal County don't have the sales tax base to do that. And we need take a serious look at some sort of state mechanism to start doing things like widening I-17, improving the roads in a growing Phoenix metropolitan area and a number of other needs?

Len Munsil:
Michael, we have a lot of infrastructure problems in our state related to growth that have not been addressed adequately. As a native Arizonan, I have watched in amazement as time after time we build a freeway and it's immediately full, immediately overtaxed with population that we have. We have done a very poor job as a state. In long-term planning looking ahead to trying to plan for all of the people who are coming here. But one of the things that we need to remember when we talk about infrastructure needs of our state, and this affects a lot of other areas including education, is that our inability of our failure to secure the border affects the people of Arizona. It affects our quality of life. And it affects the infrastructure needs in our state. We have got to begin with securing the border. It's going to affect many other aspects of our life.

Michael Grant:
Dedicated tax. State line to support, for example, road infrastructure improvements?

Janet Napolitano: I don't know if that's the way to go, Michael. I think, though, that time stuck in traffic is a time tax. And for people who are traveling to and fro work or trying to pick up the kids from school or what have you, their time is almost their most precious commodity. We are working to see what we can do to accelerate current road. Projects already on the books. We were able this year to put an additional $307 million into transportation to accelerate projects on I-10, I-17. In the valley but also throughout the rest of Arizona because there are transportation issues there as well.

Michael Grant:
Should that be a consistent priority?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I think it's going to have to be. But I think it has to be done in congestion with where our projected population growth is going to be and correlating that with issues about water, water planning, we have been doing a lot on that but we will need water infrastructure. We are going to need to be able to move water from one part of the state to the other as we move along. We need to be talking about the management of public lands and preservation of open space because many of us choose to live in Arizona because we want access to open space. We have to take that into account. We need to be planning where we are well George Gascon to build our schoolings, where our hospitals and emergency rooms are going to be located. That all goes into really thinking long term about the future of Arizona. Where is Arizona going to be in the year 2040? 2050? How do we get there?

Michael Grant:
One place we are going to be we will have a lot more people. Do we focus more state level resources on what I think up to this point in time is often been thought of as local infrastructure issues?

Barry Hess:
Local infrastructures that are combined ends up being the whole statewide but there is a place I think for statewide planning to make sure that people can get from one area of Arizona without telling that's where we wanted to you grow. It will be filled if we will just get government out of the way so that individuals or companies want to build private roads, it's been very successful in California in particular and highly urban congested areas. The private roads rights most successful. And I wouldn't have any problem with encouraging that and if they want to make a profit ought it so much the better.

Michael Grant:
Let me shift to education and, unfortunately, going to have to get into the subject of school safety. It's been a terrible couple of weeks. Obviously, schools and school districts maintain emergency response plans. There's a lot of local options in them as to what additional security measures they take. Metal detectors, police on campus, those kinds of things. Nobody wants to go here but the lessons unfortunately we have learned in the past couple of weeks, do we start, need to start mandating more school security measures for our schools and school districts?

Janet Napolitano:
No. I thought about that. And I still think that that needs to be considered within the context of an individual school or school district and community. Because Arizona is such a, such a diverse place. When I was attorney general, we crafted a school safety manual for schools. And one of the things that I have asked and talked to the Attorney General about yesterday and have sent some letters out, lets make sure those have been kept updated. Let's make sure people are making sure our children are safe in schools because one thing a parent needs to have assures rance of when the child goes to school the child will be safe. That process needs and is under way as we speak.

Michael Grant:
I certainly appreciate the local control aspect but I think probably people in rural Pennsylvania thought they were safe as well.

Janet Napolitano:
Yeah. And so you want to say, well, what is it that exactly you would mandate statewide? Would you mandate --

Michael Grant:
Metal detectors?

Janet Napolitano:
Yes. But in schools that have metal detectors what you find talking to people there you have a metal detector they find a way around it. So it's really focusing people, leadership. Our teachers, our principal, our parents, our community leaders, lieutenants make sure, let's wrap our arms around our schools make sure they are safe as possible.

Michael Grant:
School safety.

Len Munsil:
Yeah, obviously, it's tragic that we have to even think about those issues. And it speaks to where we are as a culture compared to 40 or 50 years ago that we have people coming in on a regular basis and committing these acts of violence. I do think when you look at issues like metal detectors we have them in our federal buildings. We have them at the airport and the State Capital where the Governor works. I think that's something we need to look at in our public schools. No one should have any fear or concern sending their students to a public school that there's an act of violence is going to come upon them there. I think that's something we need to look at.

Michael Grant:
What do you think, Mr. Hess?

Barry Hess:
I think we have created all kinds of disarmed victim zones and we have seen it here. The one in Pennsylvania, because of the culture, was very unique. Because that's generally a very pacifist group and it couldn't be foreseen. That's one of the hazards of day to day life. Government can't make you safe. It's like the police force. They become crime scene protectors. They are always there after someone is harmed. Of course, I am going to advocate making sure that the second amendment is always respected so that people can protect themselves and their families but also if they choose not a carry a firearm, the bad guys don't know who it is it tends to discourage them. They will either go away by discouragement or demise. The last one in the spat of them when we had all the school shootings three or four or five together, it was interceded quite accidentally where an armed individual was able to stop and it they stopped until this one. And I think it's really important if we get back to people understanding that person over there across the table may well, able to defend themselves, the bad guys go away. They always say you don't find a renegade shooter on a firing range. There's a reason for that.

Michael Grant:
English language learning, Federal Court is going to take that issue back up in January, take a look at what Arizona has done in the past six years, whether or not we are spending adequate resource on English language learners. What's Len Munsil's position on where the court should go?

Len Munsil:
First of all, I have to point out again like many, many other issues if with we had done a better job securing our border that's another area where citizens of Arizona are paying the consequences. We don't turn people away at schoolhouse door so once they are here when we have not done our job to security border we end up paying a lot of additional costs. I thought the proposal that the legislature had was legitimate. I can't believe that we would ski to an unelected federal judge the power to determine how we are going to solve problems like that. It's one of the issues I have been active in over the years opposing activist judges imposing their will on the people using some flimsy constitutional excuse. That not only did that happen, Michael, in this case but our Governor and our Attorney General went along with it. And we are happy to have the federal judge making decisions for the people of Arizona because she didn't like the decisions that the legislature -- she didn't want to negotiate with the legislature anymore. She wanted the federal judge to make the decision. Fortunately that decision was overturned by the Ninth Circuit. We will have another crack at it.

Michael Grant:
Governor, Ninth Circuit has said state Arizona of ought to be given a shot at demonstrating that a number of things it's done in the past six years or so, the dedicated sales tax for teacher's salaries increased revenues from state land, the students first building program are enough down there. You have taken a strong position they are not enough. Is that the position you will anyway January?

Janet Napolitano:
Here is what needs to happen. We have a million children in school in Arizona. About 160,000 don't speak English as their first language. They need to learn how to read, write, and speak in English as quickly as possible. To be academically competitive to be economically successful. We need to do whatever it takes to get that done. Yes, we are in court. I wish we were not in court. And Len wasn't at the capital. He wasn't party to what was going on. But we were just at an impasse and when you are at an impasse and the issue here are we complying with a federal law, a federal law, that's what federal courts are there to decide. We had asked the federal court earlier to go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. He decided not to. What the Ninth Circuit basically said was let's go ahead and have an evidentiary hearing. That's benefit scheduled. But I hope when we start the next session, we can renew this dialogue. People have been meeting, well meaning people have been meeting about this during the interim and if we can get this out of court and back to the capital and get it done and get it done in time for the children who are now in school, that to me would be a satisfactory result.

Michael Grant:
There are some statistics from the Nogales School District that indicate that they have made a remarkable progress.

Janet Napolitano:
And there are statistics from --

Michael Grant:
Of the current funding scheme.

Janet Napolitano:
There are old statistics but there are statistics from other districts and recognize this is the whole state not just Nogales that would say otherwise. Does and that's why we now have a committee that's meeting. I have made several appointments to it. The legislature made several appointments to it. The superintendent made several appointments to it. I have asked them to take an objective look at the actual data. What does it cost in the year 2006 to make sure that a youngster learns to read, write, and speak in English? That at ought to be our criterion.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
I think it's really interesting because here we have the state getting involved in something it has no business getting involved in. I have had the opportunity to travel around world and I would never once been in a country where they provided me with French language learning or German language learning or anything else and neither should we. That should fall to those people who recognize the need. And they do recognize the need and let them band together and form their own way, their own method of learning English. Because that's when the parents start putting emphasis on it and parts of our problem in education is we have got a whole generation people my age with kids who don't appreciate education because they're looking for mommy government to provide it. When they know that it's a source of pride or something they can develop on their own, they learn better. Everyone knows that if you want to learn something, you learn far better than trying to cram it into their head. And it just seems to be ludicrous to have the state involved in alternate languages and not including all 144 languages in the country. At the very least. It just seems silly for us to even be involved in going into the Spanish language.

Michael Grant:
Only got about a minute and a half total time left. Give me 30 seconds on this. Corporate tuition tax credits for private scholarship funds. Do you support?

Barry Hess:
Absolutely. Have to support it. That's one of the good areas because what I would like to see is our school system based upon a competency exam so that you, work in your butt off, you get straight A's, I'm slacking we get the same diploma. This somehow seems inequitable. I would like to see an exterior 10 see exam that stayed voluntary so parents could zero in exactly where their kids needed the help and at some point employers would say, we want you because you are competent in these areas. That's when they would form corporate schools.

Len Munsil:
I am a strong supporter of educational choice. I believe we have to do a lot of things to strengthen public education in the state of Arizona including merit pay for teachers who are doing the best job of educating our kids but I fought to defend those tax credits in the Arizona Supreme Court and I believe very strongly that school choice and parental options in education should not be the exclusive province of the wealthy.

Michael Grant:
You oppose them. Why?

Janet Napolitano:
Well, I agreed to some too business tax credits. I have a pilot to see if they do make a difference but we have lots of choice within the public schools in Arizona. We have open enrollment. We have charter schools. We have the most charter schools of any state in the country. The plain fact of the matter is as the overwhelming majority of our children are going to be he would indicated in the public schools. And we need to make sure that these public schools are as good as they can be. And that the children graduating from those public schools are ready to go on to community college, to university, or to mier technical education because that's when what our 21st century economy is going to demand.

Michael Grant:
Ok. Well, the clock is demanding that we close this phase of the debate. And we are out of time for this debate between the candidates running for governor. Each candidate will now have two minutes for a closing statement, once again, under certified circumstances the order of presentation was chosen randomly, I am checking my notes, Mr. Munsil, you go first.

Len Munsil:
Yes. Thank you, Michael. I appreciate the chance to be with you and talk about the issues important to our state. You know, when I got into the race for governor somebody meet me and my family and they said with eight kids if you can govern a family of 10, you can -- governor of the state of Arizona ought to be a piece of cake. Well, I don't go that far. There's a lot of issues that face us as a people. But I think the values that I represent, the core values that I represent of limited government, economic freedom, lower taxes, of the need to secure the border of the state of Arizona, a tough approach to crime, appointing judges who are tough on crime and the centrality of the family, I believe strongly that those are the core values of the people of the state of Arizona. And that's what I would represent. By contrast, I think we have a governor who has demonstrated herself to be outside the mainstream of the people of Arizona. A record breaking number of vetoes in one term of office. A failure to adequately address border security in the state of Arizona. No one questions it's the federal government's responsibility. But when they don't do their job, and the lives of Arizonans are affected, the question is what does the governor do? And we have had a governor who has pointed the finger of blame everywhere else. We have seen that on issue after issue. Worst crime rate in the nation, we have a governor who has been a career politician now 12 years in office with law enforcement authority and yet we have seen the state of Arizona deteriorate into that in time to having the worst crime rate in the nation. What's your plan to deal with that? Education, child protective services, we have a -- again a. Governor who promised to fix them and yet we continue to have major struggles in both of those areas. This governor vetoed efforts to protect gun owners' rights in times of emergency. This governor vetoed efforts to allow parents for involved in their daughter's abortion to the ability to consent to that. On issue after issue that affects the state we continue to struggle and gun I come back, the economy has improved in it's only because we ignored the economic proposals of this governor. If you believe as I do that we can do better, I would welcome your support on November 7. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Governor Napolitano. Your closing statement.

Janet Napolitano:
Well, again, I think that the facts of my record are very strong. We have done more on illegal immigration than any admission and we are doing more every day. My opponents haven't been to the border. They haven't worked on this issue. That's one of the many differences between us. I believe in Arizona. I believe in our past. I believe in our future. Our future that is bright. A future as a growth state, a future that is going to be built on a 21st century economy. That's why we have managed the state to work on education, to improve higher education, to bring in high-tech business, to create more jobs. This economy has created 330,000 new jobs and we are on our way to creating almost 150,000 more jobs per capita income going up. Yes, we have challenges. We have challenges. But we're not going to beat those challenges and get over those obstacles by tearing each other down. I am a builder. I am a builder. I believe in Arizona. I believe I am helping to build a new state. I would like your support and your vote to help lead you in that effort going forward.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess.

Barry Hess:
You know, as one of the issues that we didn't get to talk about which I think is significant is healthcare and one of the simple solutions is not trying to get more money out of the working population for the nonworking population. It realistically could be to get government regulation out of healthcare. The figures always seem to come back we could lessen the cost of our healthcare 60 to 70\%. That's significant. People could afford their healthcare off the their hip pockets if that's the case. I think it's really important when we talk about the budget, we supposedly have this surplus. I'm finding it difficult to believe. As an English major, not a math major but I can count. Reality is how can you possibly have a surplus when you have outstanding liabilities? Unless they are paid in full and that would mean if we slut down government today nobody would come looking for money. Obviously not the case. There is no surplus. I think its smoke and mirrors. In education, I think we could look at the progress of the student and focus there, not on preserving the administrative process of administration. I mean the reality is what we are seeing is politicians doing what politicians do. They divide us up into groups, pit us against each other and then offer to referee. And I am pretty sick and tired of that kind of thing. And I think we need a uniter. The governor can't work with this legislature and we have heard the legislature can't work with this governor unfortunately. As a libertarian I am free look at good ideas without fear of political repercussions or reprisals. I think that I offer that to Arizona. I don't want to say at this point to say that I had political experience to me, would be the last thing I would want on my resume. That would say, to say I could thrive in a corrupt system could say only one thing about my personal character and that's not what I want to say about my character. I hope that people will take the time to find out more about all of the candidates and visit us at www.hessforgovernor.com and I promise you we would be able to give you something you seldom see in this state and that's to be able to cast a vote you will never have to apologize or excuse and you will never be called upon to defend. And to the Latinos -- [speaking to Spanish] thank you very much.

Michael Grant:
Mr. Hess, thank you very much. I am glad you dropped the website reference because we have had that every night this week.

Barry Hess:
I saw Jan doing it.

Michael Grant:
I would have missed it. Mr. Munsil, thank you very much for joining us. And Governor Janet Napolitano, our thanks to you as well. Best of luck to awful you on the campaign trail. That concludes our clean elections debates for the candidates running for statewide offices. You can watch the debates again or you can get information about the statewide races, propositions and congressional races at our website. Here right details.

Mike Sauceda:
To get to the Horizon vote 2006 website, go to the Eight website at azpbs.org. Click on vote 2006. That will take to you our Horizon Vote 2006 home page which is loaded with features to help you as you prepare to cast your ballot. One of the most prominent features is top videos of the top videos feature; you can view past Horizon election shows. The five tabs on the upper part of the screen allow to you access all the information you need on the propositions, statewide races, the U.S. senate race, congressional races, and clean elections debates. For example, if you click on the proposition tab, you will get a list of propositions that will appear on the November ballot. Click on one of the propositions such as prop 100 and you will get links to the text of the proposed amendment, analysis by the legislative counsel, arguments for and against the measure, the official ballot language and dates of town halls on the measure. On the Horizon Vote 2006 website, you can also access online videos, RSS feeds, podcasts and Cronkite Eight Poll. A couple of other features, my ballot, a print a-form to remind you of your choices as you vote. You can also check out when to watch Horizon election coverage.

Michael Grant:
Thanks very much for joining us for these gubernatorial debates. Hope you can join us tomorrow for the Friday edition of Horizon when we will recap the week's news events. Mike Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

What's on?

Content Partner:

  About KAET Contact Support Legal Follow Us  
  About Eight
Mission/Impact
History
Site Map
Pressroom
Contact Us
Sign up for e-news
Pledge to Eight
Donate Monthly
Volunteer
Other ways to support
FCC Public Files
Privacy Policy
Facebook
Twitter
YouTube
Google+
Pinterest
 

Need help accessing? Contact disabilityaccess@asu.edu

Eight is a member-supported service of Arizona State University    Copyright Arizona Board of Regents