Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

July 6, 2006


Host: Michael Grant

Governor Janet Napolitano


  • A near record-long legislative session — with a record number of vetoes — ended last week. The governor joins us to talk about the session as well as the state’s battle with wildfires.
Guests:
  • Senator Jon Kyl -
  • Governor Janet Napolitano -
Category: Governor Visit

View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on Horizon, now that the legislative session is over we have a full tally of vetoes By governor Napolitano. We'll talk to her about her vetoes and more. Senator Jon Kyl will talk about issues affecting the nation including missiles launched by North Korea. That's next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon made possible by Contributions from the friends Of 8, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. In today's news, signatures turned in for several ballot measures in the city of Phoenix. 21,000 signatures turned in to put on the ballot a measure that would require Phoenix police Officers to report and detain illegal immigrants on the spot. On the state level signatures filed for five initiatives. If the petitions are approved there would be measures on the ballot banning smoking in most public places, make it hard Fore governments to condemn private property, require that all voters receive mail-in ballots, require farmers to provide enough living space for veal calves and pregnant pigs, and a measure banning same-sex marriage. That measure, the protect marriage Arizona constitutional amendment, would also ban any legal status for unmarried persons that is similar to marriage. That brings up the possibility the protect marriage Arizona measure could be kicked off the ballot because it may violate Arizona law which prohibits more Than one subject in a constitutional amendment. A supporter of the measure is confident it will withstand a court challenge.

Nathan Sproul:
There's certainly going to be A legal challenge. We expect our opponents to bring a legal challenge. They have already thrown every argument they can think of at this initiative already in the first eight or nine months. We fully expect them to bring a single subject challenge. This initiative was written anticipating that kind of legal challenge from the opposition. We are 100\% confident we will be able to defend it not only in the Superior Court level but also in the Arizona Supreme Court.

Michael Grant:
It was a near record Legislative session. 164 days long, but it did finally end and so have the vetoes issued by governor Napolitano, at least for this session. The governor set a new veto record. Earlier I talked to the governor about the just ended session and other topics like immigration.

Michael Grant:
Governor, do I understand correctly that you're not going to talk to me about the thing that people would want you to talk to me about today, the initiatives that got filed?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
That's right. I think a lot of initiatives have been filed. I haven't read or studied most of them. We'll wait and see what actually gets on the ballot.

Michael Grant:
What about conceptually? It seems we talked previously about the protect marriage amendment.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Like I said, I'm not prepared tonight to announce my position on a lot of the initiatives. I have announced my position on a few. I support the minimum wage increase, I support the conserving Arizona initiative, the actual initiative. On those I have already staked out a position. But at this point I'm going to wait and see what actually gets on the ballot and if people feel my opinion is worthy I will give it to them.

Michael Grant:
Let me ask you about a couple of referenda, then, that the legislature moved late in the legislative session. Official English.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Like I said, Michael, I'm not going to talk about what's on the ballot right now. We just finished the session. The ballot is still in flux. At a certain point and later on I'll be prepared to give you my position on all those things.

Michael Grant:
Any idea when? A month?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
One would think before the election. [laughter]

Michael Grant:
Well, might be a safe bet. Okay. Let's move to the legislative session. obviously, you and the legislature finally worked out a budget. Give me an overall reaction to what you think the ultimate product was.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
I think the ultimate product gave everybody something that they wanted. It was a compromise, but I think a very fair one. It gave what I was looking for was more spending on public education. To make sure we could continue the reforms in child protective services, increase correctional officer pay, sock away additional money in transportation. We were able to do those things. They wanted tax cuts and we were able to I think create a tax cut less than what they wanted, probably more than what I would have preferred. Part of it is permanent, part of it is not. This has been little noticed but is an important part of the budget, we filled the rainy day fund budget to the statutory maximum. We have $630 million it in a savings account should the economy really turn sour on us.

Michael Grant:
I think in fairness once you take out the one-time expenditures, a couple of which you have mentioned, the rainy day fund, I think we backed off the education --

Governor Janet Napolitano:
We paid off the k-12 rollover, we paid back the vehicle license tax. Those were some of the borrowings we had done three years ago when I came into the governorship. There was a $1 billion deficit. We had to balanced budget and we didn't want to raise taxes and we didn't want to cut k-12 education. This year revenues we're more robust. Even by January when I submitted my budget, by the time we were into the middle of the spring the numbers were higher than even the most optimistic projections.

Michael Grant:
Still an 11\% increase roughly once you normalize for those one-time expenditures, which is a pretty good chunk. Can we afford that?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
I think so. I think we're in good shape. Part of that is investment that we need to make. We have to invest in education if we are going to continue to grow the Arizona economy in a healthy way. We had to give-- state employees were given a raise this year. That's an important part of the budget. They had not been given a real raise for years and years and years. We were actually spending more money recruiting and training employees, and then they would work for other public entities or the private sector so we had to get a raise in there. I think the investments made are wise ones and a good time in our state. I think they are sustainable.

Michael Grant:
Everyone is talking about the fact you got the world record in vetoes.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
I guess I do. It's not the world record. The governor of New Mexico a few terms ago, Gary Johnson, had 850 vetoes in his first term.

Michael Grant:
Was a divided party control over there?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Yes he was a republican governor with a democratic legislature. The party doesn't seem to be as relevant as governor versus legislature. In South Carolina by way of example, they have a republican governor, heavily republican legislature, he vetoed their entire budget. They immediately convened in special session and over road his veto. You get into different branches of government as much as different parties. The vetoes were-- the number is artificially inflated, I must say. Several of the bills they sent up five different times.

Michael Grant:
Legislative control over federal funds for example.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Every governor before me has vetoed that bill. A couple bills I vetoed, this was interesting, when they actually got the bill passed and sent up to me the sponsors came to me and said, this bill is not drafted right. It's going to be worse for us than current law we ask you to veto it, then some were vetoes because there were things that needed to be really thought through or negotiated, so I vetoed the bill to bring the legislature to the table so we could negotiate it and get a bill that had some of the things I thought were important. The forest health bill would be an example of that.

Michael Grant:
One of the bills you vetoed was a bill that would have made it more difficult for municipalities to take property by eminent domain. After the kelo decision, the United States Supreme Court decision last year, a lot of people expressing a lot of concern about that area. Why did you veto that?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Because it wasn't a balanced bill. It went way overboard. The fact of the matter is that city dos need eminent domain. This bill would have, for ex, -- for example, impaired the city of Phoenix to complete existing urban renewal projects that are going on, slum clearance projects, and eminent domain is one of those things, it's a power that has to be used in a limited way and used wisely, but it is an essential part of living in a democracy. You're going to have some of that. In my view this bill went way overboard, wasn't balanced, and as you know in Arizona, our law and our case law interpreting our law is very favorable to private property rights. I think we have a lot of protections in Arizona that were not present in the kilo case.

Michael Grant:
It's true that Arizona constitution it is much clearer than the united states Constitution on that issue. I think one of the concerns, though, is that the Arizona Supreme Court has not passed judgment on the standard articulated by the court of appeals, and the fear is that you might be able to get to a situation like kilo where basically they are saying, the public purpose is to enhance our tax revenues.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
What I think better that the Supreme Court judged that in the context of a concrete case with concrete facts as opposed to an abstract fear that. Really hasn't come to pass in Arizona.

Michael Grant:
Let me ask you, apparently Calderon has won the race for Presidency of Mexico. What do you know about him and what's your reaction to that?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
It was a very close race, and my knowledge is that he was named winner today by .6 of a percentage point over Obrador, the Former mayor of Mexico City. Calderon is a member of President Fox's party. He's in his early to mid 40's. He is Harvard educated, was secretary of energy has what I `would consider in this country kind of moderate republican economic platform. I think he will want to continue some of the things that Fox began, assuming he takes office. Of course Obrador is signaling he may want to challenge the election through the courts. Under Mexican law as I understand it they don't have to have everything final until the 6th of September, so this could go on for a while, a La Florida!

Michael Grant:
Interesting comparison. Hadn't thought about that.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
But he won with less than 36\% of the popular vote and takes over with a congress split all kinds of ways. He doesn't control his congress. He will have many challenges in front of him.

Michael Grant:
We have talked frequently about the fact that the Mexican federal government, that the State of Sonora down there is in some respects almost as frustrated with Mexico City in terms of immigration policies and what they are doing to defend or not defend their border or stop illegal immigration, as many Americans are. Where does-- do you have a feel for where Calderon is on immigration issues generally?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
I would think he would be in line with where president Fox has been which is to say to support some sort of comprehensive immigration reform, but I don't know. I do know that once we know who the winner is, if it's Calderon or Obrador is successful in over turning the initial pronouncement, I would like to meet with the president elect of Mexico. It's a very important relationship for Arizona. We have immigration issues. We also have lots of trade and commerce issues with Mexico. They are our number one foreign trading partner. There's lots of to do there. I would want to build a healthy relationship with the new administration.

Michael Grant:
Arizona governor Napolitano, thanks for joining us.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
An international incident on Tuesday when North Korea launched several missiles. In the meantime the US house starting immigration hearings. Here to comment is Arizona republican senator Jon Kyl. Senator, welcome back.

Senator Jon Kyl:
Always good to be with you. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
How concerned should we be about the North Korean missile test on Tuesday?

Senator Jon Kyl:
From a military standpoint, not concerned at all, all but one of the tests, and I'm not even sure you could call them tests, launches were of old technology missiles like the scuds, in the first gulf war. They this is not militarily significant. The one missile that failed, the test failed, so from a military standpoint, no reason to be concerned. The main concern about North Korea is the fact that it has nuclear capability. We assess that there are-- That they have a number of nuclear weapons, perhaps in a single digits of numbers--

Michael Grant:
Six, seven, eight?

Senator Jon Kyl:
Perhaps. And that the technology or material or weapon could actually be sold to a terrorist organization. That would represent a huge threat to the United States. The only exports that North Korea has of any significance are counterfeit money, drugs and weaponry primarily missiles. That's how they make their money. If they got desperate enough and tried to sell nuclear material to a terrorist organization that would be very troubling.

Michael Grant:
Why are many nearby nations not more concerned about the situation or stated another way not willing to join with us in doing something about it?

Senator Jon Kyl:
Japan and South Korea are the nation's close by that are very concerned. They are concerned about the missiles as well as the belligerence generally of South Korea. The Chinese and Russians are not very concerned. The Chinese are the primary source of food for the North Koreans and a country that could exert total influence over North Korea if it chose to do so, but China does not want to help us just as they are not helping with Iran. We have to find ways to exert pressure on China to be more supportive of our foreign policy goals with respect to these two countries that are part of the original axis of evil.

Michael Grant:
How far do we take this? Do we stop with sanctions? Do we elevate to some sort of-- I'm not putting military action on the table, but there are gradations.

Senator Jon Kyl:
We have many different things in the mix right now. John Bolten, our ambassador to The UN, got something started called the proliferation security initiative, a great program that intends to interdict weapons coming from North Korea. Interdicting material going to Libya, for example, nuclear technology and weaponry, the same to some other countries, so there may be a way to stop some of the exports of North Korea. We have all the economic sanctions we can put on them. They basically don't trade anything except counterfeit money and drugs, so there's not a lot you can do there, but China has the total leverage because it supplies North Korea With most of what it has to operate, which isn't very well. It starves its own people, as you know, but it does have a robust military that needs support. We need to put pressure on China. One of the problems with the economic dealings with China is that it makes it harder for us then to ever get tough with China because of the economic interests don't want us to do that.

Michael Grant:
Let's shift to immigration. You voted against the senate Bill. Why?

Senator Jon Kyl:
Because the senate bill I thought failed in about four major ways. Let me mention a couple of them. First it has the automatic path to citizenship which I don't think is necessary and is detrimental toward getting this problem resolved if we are going to reach a compromise with the House of Representatives. It sets up a temporary worker program, but it's not a temporary worker program. You can become a permanent legal Resident and citizen under that Program. We have good economic times now, but in construction for example it's estimated half the workers are illegal. You have been through economic downturns here in Arizona where Americans can't get jobs building houses, for example. At that point you want the temporary workers to return to their home country, not stay in the united states as a matter of right competing with Americans for a scarce number of jobs. Third, the ability to ensure people are hired who are legal and only those who are legal is not yet completely worked out in the bill. We made some steps toward getting it right, but that's the key to making this thing work. If you can't determine--

Michael Grant:
In other words, verifiable ID?

Senator Jon Kyl:
That's right. A way to ensure that the person you hire is who he says he is and has a valid social security number and is authorized to work. That can be done, but it's going to take time and money and effort. While we have started the process we're nowhere near writing that up in a workable way. Finally, I'm still very skeptical that there is the will to enforce the border or enforce the law in the interior of the country. There are still too many roadblocks in the way of that. For example, there was an amendment to prosecute for fraud people who filed fraudulent affidavits about how long they had stayed in the country because that determined whether they had to return home or not.

Michael Grant:
There was a concern in the mid 80's amnesty you had a lot of false swearing.

Senator Jon Kyl:
Estimated to be about a million people who would qualify. Turned out 3.2 million or thereabouts mostly because of fraudulent affidavits of employers. You couldn't prosecute them under the '86 law. They lifted the same type of provisions out of that law to put into this bill and some of us said, no, let's make sure we can go after people who commit fraud. That amendment failed. There are still significant problems with that bill that need to be ironed out before I can support it.

Michael Grant:
Senator, I think many Americans are greatly concerned about the immigration subject. I think they also are realists from the standpoint that as you know the estimates vary, but perhaps 8, 10, 12 million people here illegally. I think they do see some reason for a controlled guest worker program. They certainly see a great need for protecting the border. Can we ever get satisfactorily to a combination of those three key points?

Senator Jon Kyl:
I think so. The president and you see leaders in both the house and Senate beginning to see where that sweet spot in the middle might be, and it's fairly apparent. People rightly ask the question, why should we think you're going to enforce a new law when you don't enforce the current law. Start enforcing the law and demonstrate to people you're serious. Secure the border. Get control of the border.

Michael Grant:
That's basically the house approach, is it not?

Senator Jon Kyl:
The house approach is toughen the border first. I think some say toughen the border, then leave it at that.

Michael Grant:
Stop.

Senator Jon Kyl:
The right approach is start with border security. That's the right place to start. At the workplace and enforcing the law in the interior. We should also do that. We can do that. Once people see that you're serious about doing those things I think they will be a lot more open minded to a temporary worker program, which we need, and you can create one as long as it's temporary, not for people to stay permanently, and also people in Arizona know we have got to deal with the maybe 12 million people here illegally, however many there are in the state of Arizona. You can't ignore that problem forever, but if you sequence the way you address the problems in such a way people see you're serious about steps one and two Before they necessarily complete steps three and four, maybe you can get this done.

Michael Grant:
This thing is dead before November, isn't it?

Senator Jon Kyl:
I hope not. I think frankly people want us to do something about this. In one sense we already are. Even if we don't pass a bill although I hope that we can, Even if it's one of those calibrated approaches that I just mentioned, we're already appropriating huge sums of money to do the border control part of this that we're talking about. We just passed a bill that will add about $1.3 billion as I recall to hiring more border patrol agents, more detention space to build more fencing, to acquire more airplanes and vehicles and all the rest of the things that have to be done, so through the appropriations process in congress we're adding more money to the department of homeland security to accomplish these near term goals. If we continue to do that we don't really need a bill to pass the congress to tell us to do that. We have the authority to do that. If we continue to do that maybe we can demonstrate to the American people that we are serious about securing the border, then they will be a little more open minded to some of the other solutions.

Michael Grant:
As you know, the National Guard effort that the president proposed has fallen short. A lot of states are saying, I'm Sorry, and I'm sure with some justification, I can't spare you my National Guard, I need it here. How much of an impact is that?

Senator Jon Kyl:
It's actually having a good Impact. Remember, we have had guard troops on the border for years. I have been down-- you just had a segment with the governor. John McCain and I were with the governor down there where they were checking the tractor trailers coming across full of tomatoes for contraband. The woman who ran the port said she would really miss these guys because they were being deployed To Iraq in December. But it illustrates the point. They have been doing good things down there for a long time. Their presence now is having a very positive effect. David Aguilar told me apprehensions are down in areas where the guard is present simply because the coyotes are afraid of running into the National Guard.

Michael Grant:
You were with the agriculture secretary today in Arizona. What was that about?

Senator Jon Kyl:
We have huge forests, millions of acres of forest service land in the state of Arizona and in our national forest that everyone enjoys. A lot of people don't realize it's the department of agriculture, not the department of interior. Michael Johans was here, took him to flagstaff, met in Northern Arizona University, Went out and toured areas where they are demonstrating good management practices for the forest. We're briefed on how they have done a lot of thinning around the city of Flagstaff, which is provide ago lot of protection. We also flew the Brins fire. All of which is to demonstrate, a, it's better to manage the forest before the fire comes, but if you have to we have the means of controlling the fire as we did with the last one.

Michael Grant:
All right, Arizona senator Jon Kyl, thank you for joining us this evening.

Michael Grant:
If you'd like to see a transcript of tonight's show or get information about upcoming topics, please visit the website. You will find that at www.azPBS.org . Once there click on the word Horizon for more details.

Merry Lucero:
Deadline day arrives for those gathering petitions to get issues on the ballot in November. Among those filing, people who want to ban smoking in most public places and others who want to ban same-sex marriage. We'll preview Friday at 7:00 on The Journalists Roundtable of Horizon.

Michael Grant:
Those subjects and more on The Friday edition. Next is Horizonte. Tonight you'll get analysis of The Mexican presidential election. Thank you very much for joining us on a Thursday evening on Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Goodnight.

Announcer:
Examine local and national public affairs issues from the viewpoint of Arizona's Latino community on Horizonte, next on 8.

senator Jon Kyl


  • Arizona’s junior senator joins Michael Grant to talk about immigration reform, the war in Iraq and a recent decision by the U.S. Supreme Court on prisoners at Guantanamo Bay.
Guests:
  • Senator Jon Kyl -
  • Governor Janet Napolitano -


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on Horizon, now that the legislative session is over we have a full tally of vetoes By governor Napolitano. We'll talk to her about her vetoes and more. Senator Jon Kyl will talk about issues affecting the nation including missiles launched by North Korea. That's next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon made possible by Contributions from the friends Of 8, members of your Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. In today's news, signatures turned in for several ballot measures in the city of Phoenix. 21,000 signatures turned in to put on the ballot a measure that would require Phoenix police Officers to report and detain illegal immigrants on the spot. On the state level signatures filed for five initiatives. If the petitions are approved there would be measures on the ballot banning smoking in most public places, make it hard Fore governments to condemn private property, require that all voters receive mail-in ballots, require farmers to provide enough living space for veal calves and pregnant pigs, and a measure banning same-sex marriage. That measure, the protect marriage Arizona constitutional amendment, would also ban any legal status for unmarried persons that is similar to marriage. That brings up the possibility the protect marriage Arizona measure could be kicked off the ballot because it may violate Arizona law which prohibits more Than one subject in a constitutional amendment. A supporter of the measure is confident it will withstand a court challenge.

Nathan Sproul:
There's certainly going to be A legal challenge. We expect our opponents to bring a legal challenge. They have already thrown every argument they can think of at this initiative already in the first eight or nine months. We fully expect them to bring a single subject challenge. This initiative was written anticipating that kind of legal challenge from the opposition. We are 100\% confident we will be able to defend it not only in the Superior Court level but also in the Arizona Supreme Court.

Michael Grant:
It was a near record Legislative session. 164 days long, but it did finally end and so have the vetoes issued by governor Napolitano, at least for this session. The governor set a new veto record. Earlier I talked to the governor about the just ended session and other topics like immigration.

Michael Grant:
Governor, do I understand correctly that you're not going to talk to me about the thing that people would want you to talk to me about today, the initiatives that got filed?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
That's right. I think a lot of initiatives have been filed. I haven't read or studied most of them. We'll wait and see what actually gets on the ballot.

Michael Grant:
What about conceptually? It seems we talked previously about the protect marriage amendment.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Like I said, I'm not prepared tonight to announce my position on a lot of the initiatives. I have announced my position on a few. I support the minimum wage increase, I support the conserving Arizona initiative, the actual initiative. On those I have already staked out a position. But at this point I'm going to wait and see what actually gets on the ballot and if people feel my opinion is worthy I will give it to them.

Michael Grant:
Let me ask you about a couple of referenda, then, that the legislature moved late in the legislative session. Official English.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Like I said, Michael, I'm not going to talk about what's on the ballot right now. We just finished the session. The ballot is still in flux. At a certain point and later on I'll be prepared to give you my position on all those things.

Michael Grant:
Any idea when? A month?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
One would think before the election. [laughter]

Michael Grant:
Well, might be a safe bet. Okay. Let's move to the legislative session. obviously, you and the legislature finally worked out a budget. Give me an overall reaction to what you think the ultimate product was.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
I think the ultimate product gave everybody something that they wanted. It was a compromise, but I think a very fair one. It gave what I was looking for was more spending on public education. To make sure we could continue the reforms in child protective services, increase correctional officer pay, sock away additional money in transportation. We were able to do those things. They wanted tax cuts and we were able to I think create a tax cut less than what they wanted, probably more than what I would have preferred. Part of it is permanent, part of it is not. This has been little noticed but is an important part of the budget, we filled the rainy day fund budget to the statutory maximum. We have $630 million it in a savings account should the economy really turn sour on us.

Michael Grant:
I think in fairness once you take out the one-time expenditures, a couple of which you have mentioned, the rainy day fund, I think we backed off the education --

Governor Janet Napolitano:
We paid off the k-12 rollover, we paid back the vehicle license tax. Those were some of the borrowings we had done three years ago when I came into the governorship. There was a $1 billion deficit. We had to balanced budget and we didn't want to raise taxes and we didn't want to cut k-12 education. This year revenues we're more robust. Even by January when I submitted my budget, by the time we were into the middle of the spring the numbers were higher than even the most optimistic projections.

Michael Grant:
Still an 11\% increase roughly once you normalize for those one-time expenditures, which is a pretty good chunk. Can we afford that?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
I think so. I think we're in good shape. Part of that is investment that we need to make. We have to invest in education if we are going to continue to grow the Arizona economy in a healthy way. We had to give-- state employees were given a raise this year. That's an important part of the budget. They had not been given a real raise for years and years and years. We were actually spending more money recruiting and training employees, and then they would work for other public entities or the private sector so we had to get a raise in there. I think the investments made are wise ones and a good time in our state. I think they are sustainable.

Michael Grant:
Everyone is talking about the fact you got the world record in vetoes.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
I guess I do. It's not the world record. The governor of New Mexico a few terms ago, Gary Johnson, had 850 vetoes in his first term.

Michael Grant:
Was a divided party control over there?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Yes he was a republican governor with a democratic legislature. The party doesn't seem to be as relevant as governor versus legislature. In South Carolina by way of example, they have a republican governor, heavily republican legislature, he vetoed their entire budget. They immediately convened in special session and over road his veto. You get into different branches of government as much as different parties. The vetoes were-- the number is artificially inflated, I must say. Several of the bills they sent up five different times.

Michael Grant:
Legislative control over federal funds for example.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Every governor before me has vetoed that bill. A couple bills I vetoed, this was interesting, when they actually got the bill passed and sent up to me the sponsors came to me and said, this bill is not drafted right. It's going to be worse for us than current law we ask you to veto it, then some were vetoes because there were things that needed to be really thought through or negotiated, so I vetoed the bill to bring the legislature to the table so we could negotiate it and get a bill that had some of the things I thought were important. The forest health bill would be an example of that.

Michael Grant:
One of the bills you vetoed was a bill that would have made it more difficult for municipalities to take property by eminent domain. After the kelo decision, the United States Supreme Court decision last year, a lot of people expressing a lot of concern about that area. Why did you veto that?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Because it wasn't a balanced bill. It went way overboard. The fact of the matter is that city dos need eminent domain. This bill would have, for ex, -- for example, impaired the city of Phoenix to complete existing urban renewal projects that are going on, slum clearance projects, and eminent domain is one of those things, it's a power that has to be used in a limited way and used wisely, but it is an essential part of living in a democracy. You're going to have some of that. In my view this bill went way overboard, wasn't balanced, and as you know in Arizona, our law and our case law interpreting our law is very favorable to private property rights. I think we have a lot of protections in Arizona that were not present in the kilo case.

Michael Grant:
It's true that Arizona constitution it is much clearer than the united states Constitution on that issue. I think one of the concerns, though, is that the Arizona Supreme Court has not passed judgment on the standard articulated by the court of appeals, and the fear is that you might be able to get to a situation like kilo where basically they are saying, the public purpose is to enhance our tax revenues.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
What I think better that the Supreme Court judged that in the context of a concrete case with concrete facts as opposed to an abstract fear that. Really hasn't come to pass in Arizona.

Michael Grant:
Let me ask you, apparently Calderon has won the race for Presidency of Mexico. What do you know about him and what's your reaction to that?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
It was a very close race, and my knowledge is that he was named winner today by .6 of a percentage point over Obrador, the Former mayor of Mexico City. Calderon is a member of President Fox's party. He's in his early to mid 40's. He is Harvard educated, was secretary of energy has what I `would consider in this country kind of moderate republican economic platform. I think he will want to continue some of the things that Fox began, assuming he takes office. Of course Obrador is signaling he may want to challenge the election through the courts. Under Mexican law as I understand it they don't have to have everything final until the 6th of September, so this could go on for a while, a La Florida!

Michael Grant:
Interesting comparison. Hadn't thought about that.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
But he won with less than 36\% of the popular vote and takes over with a congress split all kinds of ways. He doesn't control his congress. He will have many challenges in front of him.

Michael Grant:
We have talked frequently about the fact that the Mexican federal government, that the State of Sonora down there is in some respects almost as frustrated with Mexico City in terms of immigration policies and what they are doing to defend or not defend their border or stop illegal immigration, as many Americans are. Where does-- do you have a feel for where Calderon is on immigration issues generally?

Governor Janet Napolitano:
I would think he would be in line with where president Fox has been which is to say to support some sort of comprehensive immigration reform, but I don't know. I do know that once we know who the winner is, if it's Calderon or Obrador is successful in over turning the initial pronouncement, I would like to meet with the president elect of Mexico. It's a very important relationship for Arizona. We have immigration issues. We also have lots of trade and commerce issues with Mexico. They are our number one foreign trading partner. There's lots of to do there. I would want to build a healthy relationship with the new administration.

Michael Grant:
Arizona governor Napolitano, thanks for joining us.

Governor Janet Napolitano:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
An international incident on Tuesday when North Korea launched several missiles. In the meantime the US house starting immigration hearings. Here to comment is Arizona republican senator Jon Kyl. Senator, welcome back.

Senator Jon Kyl:
Always good to be with you. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
How concerned should we be about the North Korean missile test on Tuesday?

Senator Jon Kyl:
From a military standpoint, not concerned at all, all but one of the tests, and I'm not even sure you could call them tests, launches were of old technology missiles like the scuds, in the first gulf war. They this is not militarily significant. The one missile that failed, the test failed, so from a military standpoint, no reason to be concerned. The main concern about North Korea is the fact that it has nuclear capability. We assess that there are-- That they have a number of nuclear weapons, perhaps in a single digits of numbers--

Michael Grant:
Six, seven, eight?

Senator Jon Kyl:
Perhaps. And that the technology or material or weapon could actually be sold to a terrorist organization. That would represent a huge threat to the United States. The only exports that North Korea has of any significance are counterfeit money, drugs and weaponry primarily missiles. That's how they make their money. If they got desperate enough and tried to sell nuclear material to a terrorist organization that would be very troubling.

Michael Grant:
Why are many nearby nations not more concerned about the situation or stated another way not willing to join with us in doing something about it?

Senator Jon Kyl:
Japan and South Korea are the nation's close by that are very concerned. They are concerned about the missiles as well as the belligerence generally of South Korea. The Chinese and Russians are not very concerned. The Chinese are the primary source of food for the North Koreans and a country that could exert total influence over North Korea if it chose to do so, but China does not want to help us just as they are not helping with Iran. We have to find ways to exert pressure on China to be more supportive of our foreign policy goals with respect to these two countries that are part of the original axis of evil.

Michael Grant:
How far do we take this? Do we stop with sanctions? Do we elevate to some sort of-- I'm not putting military action on the table, but there are gradations.

Senator Jon Kyl:
We have many different things in the mix right now. John Bolten, our ambassador to The UN, got something started called the proliferation security initiative, a great program that intends to interdict weapons coming from North Korea. Interdicting material going to Libya, for example, nuclear technology and weaponry, the same to some other countries, so there may be a way to stop some of the exports of North Korea. We have all the economic sanctions we can put on them. They basically don't trade anything except counterfeit money and drugs, so there's not a lot you can do there, but China has the total leverage because it supplies North Korea With most of what it has to operate, which isn't very well. It starves its own people, as you know, but it does have a robust military that needs support. We need to put pressure on China. One of the problems with the economic dealings with China is that it makes it harder for us then to ever get tough with China because of the economic interests don't want us to do that.

Michael Grant:
Let's shift to immigration. You voted against the senate Bill. Why?

Senator Jon Kyl:
Because the senate bill I thought failed in about four major ways. Let me mention a couple of them. First it has the automatic path to citizenship which I don't think is necessary and is detrimental toward getting this problem resolved if we are going to reach a compromise with the House of Representatives. It sets up a temporary worker program, but it's not a temporary worker program. You can become a permanent legal Resident and citizen under that Program. We have good economic times now, but in construction for example it's estimated half the workers are illegal. You have been through economic downturns here in Arizona where Americans can't get jobs building houses, for example. At that point you want the temporary workers to return to their home country, not stay in the united states as a matter of right competing with Americans for a scarce number of jobs. Third, the ability to ensure people are hired who are legal and only those who are legal is not yet completely worked out in the bill. We made some steps toward getting it right, but that's the key to making this thing work. If you can't determine--

Michael Grant:
In other words, verifiable ID?

Senator Jon Kyl:
That's right. A way to ensure that the person you hire is who he says he is and has a valid social security number and is authorized to work. That can be done, but it's going to take time and money and effort. While we have started the process we're nowhere near writing that up in a workable way. Finally, I'm still very skeptical that there is the will to enforce the border or enforce the law in the interior of the country. There are still too many roadblocks in the way of that. For example, there was an amendment to prosecute for fraud people who filed fraudulent affidavits about how long they had stayed in the country because that determined whether they had to return home or not.

Michael Grant:
There was a concern in the mid 80's amnesty you had a lot of false swearing.

Senator Jon Kyl:
Estimated to be about a million people who would qualify. Turned out 3.2 million or thereabouts mostly because of fraudulent affidavits of employers. You couldn't prosecute them under the '86 law. They lifted the same type of provisions out of that law to put into this bill and some of us said, no, let's make sure we can go after people who commit fraud. That amendment failed. There are still significant problems with that bill that need to be ironed out before I can support it.

Michael Grant:
Senator, I think many Americans are greatly concerned about the immigration subject. I think they also are realists from the standpoint that as you know the estimates vary, but perhaps 8, 10, 12 million people here illegally. I think they do see some reason for a controlled guest worker program. They certainly see a great need for protecting the border. Can we ever get satisfactorily to a combination of those three key points?

Senator Jon Kyl:
I think so. The president and you see leaders in both the house and Senate beginning to see where that sweet spot in the middle might be, and it's fairly apparent. People rightly ask the question, why should we think you're going to enforce a new law when you don't enforce the current law. Start enforcing the law and demonstrate to people you're serious. Secure the border. Get control of the border.

Michael Grant:
That's basically the house approach, is it not?

Senator Jon Kyl:
The house approach is toughen the border first. I think some say toughen the border, then leave it at that.

Michael Grant:
Stop.

Senator Jon Kyl:
The right approach is start with border security. That's the right place to start. At the workplace and enforcing the law in the interior. We should also do that. We can do that. Once people see that you're serious about doing those things I think they will be a lot more open minded to a temporary worker program, which we need, and you can create one as long as it's temporary, not for people to stay permanently, and also people in Arizona know we have got to deal with the maybe 12 million people here illegally, however many there are in the state of Arizona. You can't ignore that problem forever, but if you sequence the way you address the problems in such a way people see you're serious about steps one and two Before they necessarily complete steps three and four, maybe you can get this done.

Michael Grant:
This thing is dead before November, isn't it?

Senator Jon Kyl:
I hope not. I think frankly people want us to do something about this. In one sense we already are. Even if we don't pass a bill although I hope that we can, Even if it's one of those calibrated approaches that I just mentioned, we're already appropriating huge sums of money to do the border control part of this that we're talking about. We just passed a bill that will add about $1.3 billion as I recall to hiring more border patrol agents, more detention space to build more fencing, to acquire more airplanes and vehicles and all the rest of the things that have to be done, so through the appropriations process in congress we're adding more money to the department of homeland security to accomplish these near term goals. If we continue to do that we don't really need a bill to pass the congress to tell us to do that. We have the authority to do that. If we continue to do that maybe we can demonstrate to the American people that we are serious about securing the border, then they will be a little more open minded to some of the other solutions.

Michael Grant:
As you know, the National Guard effort that the president proposed has fallen short. A lot of states are saying, I'm Sorry, and I'm sure with some justification, I can't spare you my National Guard, I need it here. How much of an impact is that?

Senator Jon Kyl:
It's actually having a good Impact. Remember, we have had guard troops on the border for years. I have been down-- you just had a segment with the governor. John McCain and I were with the governor down there where they were checking the tractor trailers coming across full of tomatoes for contraband. The woman who ran the port said she would really miss these guys because they were being deployed To Iraq in December. But it illustrates the point. They have been doing good things down there for a long time. Their presence now is having a very positive effect. David Aguilar told me apprehensions are down in areas where the guard is present simply because the coyotes are afraid of running into the National Guard.

Michael Grant:
You were with the agriculture secretary today in Arizona. What was that about?

Senator Jon Kyl:
We have huge forests, millions of acres of forest service land in the state of Arizona and in our national forest that everyone enjoys. A lot of people don't realize it's the department of agriculture, not the department of interior. Michael Johans was here, took him to flagstaff, met in Northern Arizona University, Went out and toured areas where they are demonstrating good management practices for the forest. We're briefed on how they have done a lot of thinning around the city of Flagstaff, which is provide ago lot of protection. We also flew the Brins fire. All of which is to demonstrate, a, it's better to manage the forest before the fire comes, but if you have to we have the means of controlling the fire as we did with the last one.

Michael Grant:
All right, Arizona senator Jon Kyl, thank you for joining us this evening.

Michael Grant:
If you'd like to see a transcript of tonight's show or get information about upcoming topics, please visit the website. You will find that at www.azPBS.org . Once there click on the word Horizon for more details.

Merry Lucero:
Deadline day arrives for those gathering petitions to get issues on the ballot in November. Among those filing, people who want to ban smoking in most public places and others who want to ban same-sex marriage. We'll preview Friday at 7:00 on The Journalists Roundtable of Horizon.

Michael Grant:
Those subjects and more on The Friday edition. Next is Horizonte. Tonight you'll get analysis of The Mexican presidential election. Thank you very much for joining us on a Thursday evening on Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Goodnight.

Announcer:
Examine local and national public affairs issues from the viewpoint of Arizona's Latino community on Horizonte, next on 8.

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