Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

May 16, 2006


Host: Michael Grant

Battle of Picacho Pass


  • Historian Andy Masich and Civil War enthusiast Bill Thompson take viewers back to the western-most battle of the Civil War: The Battle of Picacho Pass.
Guests:
  • Claudia Walters - Mesa's vice-mayor
  • Chuck Karlise - president, Derito Development Partners


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on Horizon. Construction begins on the big anchor store at the new Mesa Riverview project: the bass pro shop's store. Plus the civil war's westernmost battle took place about 70 miles southeast of phoenix. The Battle of Picacho Pass. Those stories next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to Horizon. First off former president Bill Clinton throwing his support behind senate candidate Jim Pederson. Pederson is seeking to unseat republican in come bent senator Jon Kyl. Clinton is set to appear at a $500 a person fundraiser for Pederson next month. In the past, Pederson supported both bill and Hillary Clintons' campaigns. Mesa city officials, project developers, representatives of the bass pro shop on hand for a long-awaited groundbreaking ceremony this week. The big retail store will anchor the mesa Riverview. That retail and mix-used center has people in place. We'll talk about the river view and first Merry Lucero covered the bass pro shop's event.

Merry Lucero:
It was a long wait and a lot of work for city of mesa, surrounding community and developers.

Dan Slattery
: I look at the site plans with 68 or something like that to see how it evolved and how working with the council with the staff and the community groups and tenants and everything changed and it's putting together a large puzzle and they are all fitting well.

Merry Lucero:
Ground is broken for the new bass pro shop's store in mesa. 180 square foot store will feature outdoor gear and a restaurant and expected to be a regional attraction.

Hayes Gilstrap:
There are over 5,000 anglers that come to may say to fish the urban lakes. That generates about 60,000 fishing days and generates $600,000 in expenses related to whether they have lunch here, buy gas here, and lures and rods.

Merry Lucero:
So the store, the city and state game and fish want to make sure area lakes have something to catch.

Martin MacDonald:
I know a lot of you in the neighborhood like to fish. We don't want you to have to go too far to fish. So we're partnering with the Arizona game and fish department to stock Red Mountain and Riverview lakes with catfish, trout, bass and sunfish.

Merry Lucero:
Bass Pro Shop's Store will anchor the mesa Riverview project that in-between through process.

Claudia Walters:
It has been a real challenge. This property has been voted on I think three separate times. Twice for stadium issues and once for zoning of the property voted on this project. There were competing interests involved, no sides were funded by somebody who was going into the Tempe marketplace. Project from the yes side was obviously funded by the developers here.

Merry Lucero:
The Mesa Riverview south of loop 202 and east of 101. It will have another 1 million Square feet of retail and more.

Marty DeRito:
We will have three or four car dealerships and 500 square feet of business park on it site.

Merry Lucero:
When completed it will be one of largest employers in the valley. It's due to open in spring of 2007.

Michael Grant:
Talk more about the Mesa Riverview and Mesa's share in the project, Mesa's vice-mayor Claudia Walters and Chuck Karlise, president of the Derito Development Partners. I don't want to throw you off this, this is big honking development.

Chuck Karlise:
Yes. It's big portion of it and retail anchored with bass pro.

Michael Grant:
I'll tip my hand here and indicate that I'm not much of an outdoorsman. I was not aware of the bass pro phenomenon until bass pro come along in relation to Riverview. It's one large national phenomenon.

Chuck Karlise:
It's a Mecca for outside anything. I don't care if you are hang gliding, skiing and fishing, hunting. It's all there.

Michael Grant:
You also have theaters there. Does bass pro become what theaters frequently are to shopping centers and basically the magnet to pull people in and throw off other business at least in part?

Chuck Karlise:
Absolutely but in a different way. You've got people traveling two hours on an average to get to that store. You have people staying for three hours. So it draws people from Tucson to Flagstaff, which is not what a theater typically does. They're closer together than that.

Michael Grant:
Claudia you were in my category you were not aware of it until it came newspaper relation the riverbeds.

Claudia Walters:
I wasn't and I was surprised to discover what a amazing phenomenon it was. I visited one and I saw it was exciting. I enjoy aspects of out doors and wouldn't consider myself an outdoors person and they were involved in NASCAR a huge sport in this country.

Michael Grant:
The polls are closing in mesa on the property and sales tax issue. We've talked a couple of times about the ballot issues. Is this in response that more people jumping on the freeway and going to other cities to shop?

Claudia Walters:
Absolutely. We had to protect the borders to certain extent. The area is largely underserved in terms of restaurant of the bass shop that the shopping center has many more things including 2 dozen restaurants. When I go out of the neighborhoods, that's what people are excited about. In terms of keeping retail in Mesa, this was very important to us.

Michael Grant:
As mentioned on the package that there's been zoning controversies at this location I guess it was three times. The first couple of times stadium that went down. This went up. What was the difference?

Claudia Walters:
Well, I think there were some issues involving the stadium. There were people who said what part much no did you not get? Second time around they didn't want a stadium there. The neighbors weren't interested in having the stadium around and neighbors were interested if having development. The developer went out in the worked in the neighborhood to find out what they were looking for what kind of amenities they wanted in terms of design and businesses that were coming there. They became very excited and out campaigning for this.

Michael Grant:
Chuck, how do you go about that? It seems that there are developers who are better at that than others including one that hangs down in New York City. How do you get the job done?

Chuck Karlise:
Good listeners. The retailers are the ones that make the decision ultimately, okay? And they want to know what the people want. It's a matter of serving the needs. Basically, that's it. If you're listening to what the needs are and giving the retailer the download on that information, then you're match making.

Michael Grant:
On the other hand if I'm only living half a block from the place. That's great I have a bass pro but I also have 130,000 cars coming past my location. How do you deal with that kind of thing?

Chuck Karlise:
They are more concerned with the aesthetics aspects of the property from what it looks like from the backyard as much as the traffic. People know when they see 250 acres of fallow land nearby there's going to be something other than a park.

Michael Grant:
The development agreement obviously was and to a certain extent remains controversial. It plays as an election issue on the ballot plots. Did Mesa give away the store?

Claudia Walters:
No, it's an interesting thing for me to be advocating for this because I've been advocating to the legislature for a number of years they get rid of retail incentives statewide. We haven't had that. We had the competition, mesa, using a sports analogy, was playing in the American league and not using a designated hitter and we were losing. We're taking business away from mesa.

Michael Grant:
Should the legislature call Ollie oxen free to stop the issues?

Claudia Walters:
There are a lot of people on both sides. I have advocated for it expect for infrastructures. I can understand in the rural communities the need for infrastructures. The rules the way they are mesa non-competing when relying on sales tax. We didn't give it away. The developer took the risk and sharing the sales tax revenues. If the sales tax passes, mesa gets the increase we don't share that with the developers.

Michael Grant:
Chuck, how generally does this work in terms of incentives involved? And also, how key were those incentives to your decision at Riverview?

Chuck Karlise:
Here's how it works. We put up all the dough. We build the infrastructures. We don't get any money back unless we produce. We're at risk for the money upfront. Cities don't get involved in that. I'm sure others have but in this particular case, that's not how we structured it.

Michael Grant:
How key was incentive package to landing there or someplace else.

Chuck Karlise:
It's absolutely key to our being able to bring this project to fruition.

Michael Grant:
Why so?

Chuck Karlise:
Because there are tenants that tend to bring the magnetic force to the sites.

Michael Grant:
For example, theaters.

Chuck Karlise:
Yes. They are big draw. You have to have systems to get to make economic sense.

Michael Grant:
Chuck, we talked about the theaters and bass pro and fill in the blanks generally on build down what's out.

Chuck Karlise:
The Theater and Home Depot coming to the site and Wal-Mart and 25 restaurants approximately, and a million four in total build out of retail. We're at a million one leased and we'll have three to 5 auto dealerships on-site and 4 or 500,000 square feet of business parks and hotels. We're working on that right now.

Michael Grant:
Are car dealerships booked or is that still trolling for cars?

Chuck Karlise:
We'll announce something in the next 30 days. It's pretty close.

Michael Grant:
This is pretty broad-based mixed used. I take it that's what the council was opened for?

Claudia Walters:
We were. There's a lot of land there and there was a opportunity for broad-based mixed-use and we were excite about the office and I knew they were looking at hotels.

Michael Grant:
It's going to change things. Sounds like for the better. Vice mayor Claudia Walters thanks for joining us.

Michael Grant:
Every year civil war re-enactors recreate the Battle of Picacho Pass near it's location at Picacho peek. They set the stage for the Battle at Picacho Pass. First, we look at reenactments and talk about the battle with two gentleman who are experts on the history of the civil war. [Drums and gunfire]

Announcer:
In the early days of civil war, forces of the north and south fought to control the southwest. The territory of New Mexico stretched from Texas to the Pacific Ocean. It saw three civil war battles including the Battle of Alberti where 202 men lost their lives.

Wade Cox:
During the first year of the civil war the confederacy was making an effort to gain control of southwest partly for mineral resources and to expand its boundaries to make it more difficult for the union to maintain a successful blockade. Towards that end, confederate troops mostly from Texas were squaring off against U.S. troops, New Mexico volunteers in Colorado volunteers in what is now the state of New Mexico.

Announcer:
The only battle fought in what we now know as Arizona occurred at Picacho peek between Tucson and Phoenix. In 1861 the New Mexico territory was a split in two the confederates claimed everything south including phoenix. They named it Arizona. Its capitol was Mesilla north of El Paso. In 1862, confederate troops were received in opened arms from Tucson because they provided protection from the Indian raids. It caught the attention of union troops stationed at fort Yuma.

Wade Cox:
There were 1800 of them stationed at fort Yuma just across there. And further advances by confederate forces started moving eastward up the Gila River and one of stopping places of Sacaton and down this way. This was a major thoroughfare that followed the Gila trail. Anybody going east to west or west to east came this way.

Announcer:
In mid-April, they squeezed between two mountains named Picacho Pass. Idaho still used today for interstate 10. To get to Tucson, union troops would have to go through the path

Michael Grant:
Here to talk about the battle at Picacho Pass is Andy Masic, the author of the new book about the civil war in our state. And here is Bill Wallace Thompson a civil war buff formerly known as Wallace and Ladmo His love of the civil war and TV job to produce reenactments of the civil war in Picacho Pass he showed some of favorite segments and I love your hat.

Bill Wallace:
As long as we're talking about the civil war today, I thought I would wear it.

Michael Grant:
We saw the set up. Andy, give us, what happened at Picacho Pass.

Andy Masic:
Well, Picacho Pass isn't the first battle in the Arizona. It's not the last but best remembered. Union trips moving up the Gila River and discovered a picket post and union men divided forces tried to encircle them and Lieutenant Barrett rushed in and was shot out of his saddle. Three union men were killed, three wounded, three of the confederates were captured and rest of rebels road back to the Tucson warned captain Hunter that the California column was coming so the confederates bugged out of the Tucson and the California column rolled through.

Michael Grant:
Andy it's a good point when the civil war started, regular troops were all taken back to the south and the east so the union troops that we have here were coming from California.

Andy Masic:
Absolutely. They were 15,000 soldiers in the regular army at the time the civil war broke out. The state of California alone raised 15,000 volunteers and they covered all the western posts that had been abandoned by alt regular troops from the state of Washington to New Mexico. All over the western territories.

Michael Grant:
You pointed out Picacho Pass gets all the glory but there were other civil war conflicts in Arizona.

Andy Masic:
The first fight was on the Gila River 80 miles east of Yuma. Confederate Calvary and others exchanged shots and other is Pima village south of phoenix captain William McCleeve was captured with nine of his men there by confederates. And 1863 there was a skirmish on the banks of the Colorado River in the town of La Paz, 100 miles north of Yuma. That was largest city in the territory at the time because gold had been discovered there.

Michael Grant:
I am hesitant to call for tape on the show but I'm not sure if it is going to magic. I'm told I have that on Wallace and Ladmo.

Andy Masic:
This was made in 1959, 1960. There it is at Papago Park. That's the scene of the battle.

Michael Grant:
You're obviously avoiding the most prominent feature of Papago Park because that would give it away. Who's winning here? Do we know who is winning?

Bill Wallace:
Eventually in movie, the south wins. That was me. I just went by on the horse. Where's Ladmo. You'll see him pretty soon.

Michael Grant:
This is quite a logistical undertaking. How many people do you have out there?

Andy Masic:
About 100. It took two weekends to do it.

Michael Grant:
The horses, the weaponry, the uniforms.

Bill Wallace:
Right and it was a lot of fun. Everybody in it were entertainers in the valley. All of our friends, the make believers and the band from sergeant, sonny stars and had a rock band.

Andy Masic:
Many people think the war in the Arizona was like that. That's the reason I wrote the book the story of the California volunteers and I hope people will understood it wasn't just about battles in the desert but the California troops came and took those posts and were the first legislatures, doctors, lawyers, teachers and established the mining industry in Arizona which was created by Abraham Lincoln as a territory in civil war.

Michael Grant:
The concern and one of reasons it came to the Arizona was of the concern that California would be used both to imported and export and basically break the blockade that the north had on the south.

Andy Masic:
That's right. The confederates were looking for ports whether in southern California or the in Gulf of Mexico. They were trying to cut deals with the Mexican government, which was in turmoil at the time because the French under Napoleon III had invaded Mexico and was marching on Mexico City. Cinco De Mayo is about that invasion.

Michael Grant:
At that point, in time you have a north and south Arizona and New Mexico. I mean running California to Texas instead of the line of troops the other way of the union in 1863?

Andy Masic:
That's right the union. Abraham Lincoln drew the line north and south. The confederates ran it across the other way. Lincoln didn't want a hot bed in the southern part of the Arizona that might become slave state. This was before the emancipation proclamation and before people knew the outcome of civil war. Would we be a slave or free country?

Michael Grant:
Speaking of pictures. We have some from your book including what we think is the first.

Andy Masic:
That's right. The picture you are looking at is the first photograph taken in Arizona at fort Mohave in 1863 by a French photographer DaRuss and captain Atchinson and there's no earlier photograph known in Arizona than that one.

Michael Grant:
Of course being the most famous of the photographers of the civil war. What are we looking at here?

Andy Masic:
We were log at Yuma. It was called Arizona City then. On the hill in the background, you see fort Yuma. The Colorado River runs right between fort Yuma and the street. You can see the ferry mast those tall polls because they had to pull a rope across the river and pull a flat bottom ferry across and steamboats were going up and down the river to supply the forts. They had to pull the ferry ropes up the mast to closer the smoke stack on steamers.

Michael Grant:
Obviously being used for a variety of different--I assume troop movement.

Andy Masic:
Mining. It was mining up river where all the gold mines were being discovered; they needed tons and Tons of supplies. It was one of the steamers that the farthest west battle of civil war occurred at la pass. It wasn't a battle but a skirmish; two or three union soldiers were shot down in La Paz on the banks after the bloody Colorado.

Michael Grant:
Name of book.

Andy Masic:
Civil War in Arizona the Story of California Volunteers.

Michael Grant:
Thanks for joining us and talking about it. Bill Wallace it's always a pleasure and I still love the cap.

Bill Wallace:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Directly following Horizon stay tuned for Arizona Stories. You can see the entire story of the Picacho Pass. Airs stories people, place and history that makes Arizona unique airs every Tuesday at 7:30 p.m.

Michael Grant:
Thanks for joining us this evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

Mesa Riverview Project


  • Mesa city officials, project developers, representatives of the Bass Pro shop on hand for a long-awaited groundbreaking ceremony this week. The big retail store will anchor the Mesa Riverview.
Guests:
  • Claudia Walters - Mesa's vice-mayor
  • Chuck Karlise - president, Derito Development Partners


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on Horizon. Construction begins on the big anchor store at the new Mesa Riverview project: the bass pro shop's store. Plus the civil war's westernmost battle took place about 70 miles southeast of phoenix. The Battle of Picacho Pass. Those stories next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to Horizon. First off former president Bill Clinton throwing his support behind senate candidate Jim Pederson. Pederson is seeking to unseat republican in come bent senator Jon Kyl. Clinton is set to appear at a $500 a person fundraiser for Pederson next month. In the past, Pederson supported both bill and Hillary Clintons' campaigns. Mesa city officials, project developers, representatives of the bass pro shop on hand for a long-awaited groundbreaking ceremony this week. The big retail store will anchor the mesa Riverview. That retail and mix-used center has people in place. We'll talk about the river view and first Merry Lucero covered the bass pro shop's event.

Merry Lucero:
It was a long wait and a lot of work for city of mesa, surrounding community and developers.

Dan Slattery
: I look at the site plans with 68 or something like that to see how it evolved and how working with the council with the staff and the community groups and tenants and everything changed and it's putting together a large puzzle and they are all fitting well.

Merry Lucero:
Ground is broken for the new bass pro shop's store in mesa. 180 square foot store will feature outdoor gear and a restaurant and expected to be a regional attraction.

Hayes Gilstrap:
There are over 5,000 anglers that come to may say to fish the urban lakes. That generates about 60,000 fishing days and generates $600,000 in expenses related to whether they have lunch here, buy gas here, and lures and rods.

Merry Lucero:
So the store, the city and state game and fish want to make sure area lakes have something to catch.

Martin MacDonald:
I know a lot of you in the neighborhood like to fish. We don't want you to have to go too far to fish. So we're partnering with the Arizona game and fish department to stock Red Mountain and Riverview lakes with catfish, trout, bass and sunfish.

Merry Lucero:
Bass Pro Shop's Store will anchor the mesa Riverview project that in-between through process.

Claudia Walters:
It has been a real challenge. This property has been voted on I think three separate times. Twice for stadium issues and once for zoning of the property voted on this project. There were competing interests involved, no sides were funded by somebody who was going into the Tempe marketplace. Project from the yes side was obviously funded by the developers here.

Merry Lucero:
The Mesa Riverview south of loop 202 and east of 101. It will have another 1 million Square feet of retail and more.

Marty DeRito:
We will have three or four car dealerships and 500 square feet of business park on it site.

Merry Lucero:
When completed it will be one of largest employers in the valley. It's due to open in spring of 2007.

Michael Grant:
Talk more about the Mesa Riverview and Mesa's share in the project, Mesa's vice-mayor Claudia Walters and Chuck Karlise, president of the Derito Development Partners. I don't want to throw you off this, this is big honking development.

Chuck Karlise:
Yes. It's big portion of it and retail anchored with bass pro.

Michael Grant:
I'll tip my hand here and indicate that I'm not much of an outdoorsman. I was not aware of the bass pro phenomenon until bass pro come along in relation to Riverview. It's one large national phenomenon.

Chuck Karlise:
It's a Mecca for outside anything. I don't care if you are hang gliding, skiing and fishing, hunting. It's all there.

Michael Grant:
You also have theaters there. Does bass pro become what theaters frequently are to shopping centers and basically the magnet to pull people in and throw off other business at least in part?

Chuck Karlise:
Absolutely but in a different way. You've got people traveling two hours on an average to get to that store. You have people staying for three hours. So it draws people from Tucson to Flagstaff, which is not what a theater typically does. They're closer together than that.

Michael Grant:
Claudia you were in my category you were not aware of it until it came newspaper relation the riverbeds.

Claudia Walters:
I wasn't and I was surprised to discover what a amazing phenomenon it was. I visited one and I saw it was exciting. I enjoy aspects of out doors and wouldn't consider myself an outdoors person and they were involved in NASCAR a huge sport in this country.

Michael Grant:
The polls are closing in mesa on the property and sales tax issue. We've talked a couple of times about the ballot issues. Is this in response that more people jumping on the freeway and going to other cities to shop?

Claudia Walters:
Absolutely. We had to protect the borders to certain extent. The area is largely underserved in terms of restaurant of the bass shop that the shopping center has many more things including 2 dozen restaurants. When I go out of the neighborhoods, that's what people are excited about. In terms of keeping retail in Mesa, this was very important to us.

Michael Grant:
As mentioned on the package that there's been zoning controversies at this location I guess it was three times. The first couple of times stadium that went down. This went up. What was the difference?

Claudia Walters:
Well, I think there were some issues involving the stadium. There were people who said what part much no did you not get? Second time around they didn't want a stadium there. The neighbors weren't interested in having the stadium around and neighbors were interested if having development. The developer went out in the worked in the neighborhood to find out what they were looking for what kind of amenities they wanted in terms of design and businesses that were coming there. They became very excited and out campaigning for this.

Michael Grant:
Chuck, how do you go about that? It seems that there are developers who are better at that than others including one that hangs down in New York City. How do you get the job done?

Chuck Karlise:
Good listeners. The retailers are the ones that make the decision ultimately, okay? And they want to know what the people want. It's a matter of serving the needs. Basically, that's it. If you're listening to what the needs are and giving the retailer the download on that information, then you're match making.

Michael Grant:
On the other hand if I'm only living half a block from the place. That's great I have a bass pro but I also have 130,000 cars coming past my location. How do you deal with that kind of thing?

Chuck Karlise:
They are more concerned with the aesthetics aspects of the property from what it looks like from the backyard as much as the traffic. People know when they see 250 acres of fallow land nearby there's going to be something other than a park.

Michael Grant:
The development agreement obviously was and to a certain extent remains controversial. It plays as an election issue on the ballot plots. Did Mesa give away the store?

Claudia Walters:
No, it's an interesting thing for me to be advocating for this because I've been advocating to the legislature for a number of years they get rid of retail incentives statewide. We haven't had that. We had the competition, mesa, using a sports analogy, was playing in the American league and not using a designated hitter and we were losing. We're taking business away from mesa.

Michael Grant:
Should the legislature call Ollie oxen free to stop the issues?

Claudia Walters:
There are a lot of people on both sides. I have advocated for it expect for infrastructures. I can understand in the rural communities the need for infrastructures. The rules the way they are mesa non-competing when relying on sales tax. We didn't give it away. The developer took the risk and sharing the sales tax revenues. If the sales tax passes, mesa gets the increase we don't share that with the developers.

Michael Grant:
Chuck, how generally does this work in terms of incentives involved? And also, how key were those incentives to your decision at Riverview?

Chuck Karlise:
Here's how it works. We put up all the dough. We build the infrastructures. We don't get any money back unless we produce. We're at risk for the money upfront. Cities don't get involved in that. I'm sure others have but in this particular case, that's not how we structured it.

Michael Grant:
How key was incentive package to landing there or someplace else.

Chuck Karlise:
It's absolutely key to our being able to bring this project to fruition.

Michael Grant:
Why so?

Chuck Karlise:
Because there are tenants that tend to bring the magnetic force to the sites.

Michael Grant:
For example, theaters.

Chuck Karlise:
Yes. They are big draw. You have to have systems to get to make economic sense.

Michael Grant:
Chuck, we talked about the theaters and bass pro and fill in the blanks generally on build down what's out.

Chuck Karlise:
The Theater and Home Depot coming to the site and Wal-Mart and 25 restaurants approximately, and a million four in total build out of retail. We're at a million one leased and we'll have three to 5 auto dealerships on-site and 4 or 500,000 square feet of business parks and hotels. We're working on that right now.

Michael Grant:
Are car dealerships booked or is that still trolling for cars?

Chuck Karlise:
We'll announce something in the next 30 days. It's pretty close.

Michael Grant:
This is pretty broad-based mixed used. I take it that's what the council was opened for?

Claudia Walters:
We were. There's a lot of land there and there was a opportunity for broad-based mixed-use and we were excite about the office and I knew they were looking at hotels.

Michael Grant:
It's going to change things. Sounds like for the better. Vice mayor Claudia Walters thanks for joining us.

Michael Grant:
Every year civil war re-enactors recreate the Battle of Picacho Pass near it's location at Picacho peek. They set the stage for the Battle at Picacho Pass. First, we look at reenactments and talk about the battle with two gentleman who are experts on the history of the civil war. [Drums and gunfire]

Announcer:
In the early days of civil war, forces of the north and south fought to control the southwest. The territory of New Mexico stretched from Texas to the Pacific Ocean. It saw three civil war battles including the Battle of Alberti where 202 men lost their lives.

Wade Cox:
During the first year of the civil war the confederacy was making an effort to gain control of southwest partly for mineral resources and to expand its boundaries to make it more difficult for the union to maintain a successful blockade. Towards that end, confederate troops mostly from Texas were squaring off against U.S. troops, New Mexico volunteers in Colorado volunteers in what is now the state of New Mexico.

Announcer:
The only battle fought in what we now know as Arizona occurred at Picacho peek between Tucson and Phoenix. In 1861 the New Mexico territory was a split in two the confederates claimed everything south including phoenix. They named it Arizona. Its capitol was Mesilla north of El Paso. In 1862, confederate troops were received in opened arms from Tucson because they provided protection from the Indian raids. It caught the attention of union troops stationed at fort Yuma.

Wade Cox:
There were 1800 of them stationed at fort Yuma just across there. And further advances by confederate forces started moving eastward up the Gila River and one of stopping places of Sacaton and down this way. This was a major thoroughfare that followed the Gila trail. Anybody going east to west or west to east came this way.

Announcer:
In mid-April, they squeezed between two mountains named Picacho Pass. Idaho still used today for interstate 10. To get to Tucson, union troops would have to go through the path

Michael Grant:
Here to talk about the battle at Picacho Pass is Andy Masic, the author of the new book about the civil war in our state. And here is Bill Wallace Thompson a civil war buff formerly known as Wallace and Ladmo His love of the civil war and TV job to produce reenactments of the civil war in Picacho Pass he showed some of favorite segments and I love your hat.

Bill Wallace:
As long as we're talking about the civil war today, I thought I would wear it.

Michael Grant:
We saw the set up. Andy, give us, what happened at Picacho Pass.

Andy Masic:
Well, Picacho Pass isn't the first battle in the Arizona. It's not the last but best remembered. Union trips moving up the Gila River and discovered a picket post and union men divided forces tried to encircle them and Lieutenant Barrett rushed in and was shot out of his saddle. Three union men were killed, three wounded, three of the confederates were captured and rest of rebels road back to the Tucson warned captain Hunter that the California column was coming so the confederates bugged out of the Tucson and the California column rolled through.

Michael Grant:
Andy it's a good point when the civil war started, regular troops were all taken back to the south and the east so the union troops that we have here were coming from California.

Andy Masic:
Absolutely. They were 15,000 soldiers in the regular army at the time the civil war broke out. The state of California alone raised 15,000 volunteers and they covered all the western posts that had been abandoned by alt regular troops from the state of Washington to New Mexico. All over the western territories.

Michael Grant:
You pointed out Picacho Pass gets all the glory but there were other civil war conflicts in Arizona.

Andy Masic:
The first fight was on the Gila River 80 miles east of Yuma. Confederate Calvary and others exchanged shots and other is Pima village south of phoenix captain William McCleeve was captured with nine of his men there by confederates. And 1863 there was a skirmish on the banks of the Colorado River in the town of La Paz, 100 miles north of Yuma. That was largest city in the territory at the time because gold had been discovered there.

Michael Grant:
I am hesitant to call for tape on the show but I'm not sure if it is going to magic. I'm told I have that on Wallace and Ladmo.

Andy Masic:
This was made in 1959, 1960. There it is at Papago Park. That's the scene of the battle.

Michael Grant:
You're obviously avoiding the most prominent feature of Papago Park because that would give it away. Who's winning here? Do we know who is winning?

Bill Wallace:
Eventually in movie, the south wins. That was me. I just went by on the horse. Where's Ladmo. You'll see him pretty soon.

Michael Grant:
This is quite a logistical undertaking. How many people do you have out there?

Andy Masic:
About 100. It took two weekends to do it.

Michael Grant:
The horses, the weaponry, the uniforms.

Bill Wallace:
Right and it was a lot of fun. Everybody in it were entertainers in the valley. All of our friends, the make believers and the band from sergeant, sonny stars and had a rock band.

Andy Masic:
Many people think the war in the Arizona was like that. That's the reason I wrote the book the story of the California volunteers and I hope people will understood it wasn't just about battles in the desert but the California troops came and took those posts and were the first legislatures, doctors, lawyers, teachers and established the mining industry in Arizona which was created by Abraham Lincoln as a territory in civil war.

Michael Grant:
The concern and one of reasons it came to the Arizona was of the concern that California would be used both to imported and export and basically break the blockade that the north had on the south.

Andy Masic:
That's right. The confederates were looking for ports whether in southern California or the in Gulf of Mexico. They were trying to cut deals with the Mexican government, which was in turmoil at the time because the French under Napoleon III had invaded Mexico and was marching on Mexico City. Cinco De Mayo is about that invasion.

Michael Grant:
At that point, in time you have a north and south Arizona and New Mexico. I mean running California to Texas instead of the line of troops the other way of the union in 1863?

Andy Masic:
That's right the union. Abraham Lincoln drew the line north and south. The confederates ran it across the other way. Lincoln didn't want a hot bed in the southern part of the Arizona that might become slave state. This was before the emancipation proclamation and before people knew the outcome of civil war. Would we be a slave or free country?

Michael Grant:
Speaking of pictures. We have some from your book including what we think is the first.

Andy Masic:
That's right. The picture you are looking at is the first photograph taken in Arizona at fort Mohave in 1863 by a French photographer DaRuss and captain Atchinson and there's no earlier photograph known in Arizona than that one.

Michael Grant:
Of course being the most famous of the photographers of the civil war. What are we looking at here?

Andy Masic:
We were log at Yuma. It was called Arizona City then. On the hill in the background, you see fort Yuma. The Colorado River runs right between fort Yuma and the street. You can see the ferry mast those tall polls because they had to pull a rope across the river and pull a flat bottom ferry across and steamboats were going up and down the river to supply the forts. They had to pull the ferry ropes up the mast to closer the smoke stack on steamers.

Michael Grant:
Obviously being used for a variety of different--I assume troop movement.

Andy Masic:
Mining. It was mining up river where all the gold mines were being discovered; they needed tons and Tons of supplies. It was one of the steamers that the farthest west battle of civil war occurred at la pass. It wasn't a battle but a skirmish; two or three union soldiers were shot down in La Paz on the banks after the bloody Colorado.

Michael Grant:
Name of book.

Andy Masic:
Civil War in Arizona the Story of California Volunteers.

Michael Grant:
Thanks for joining us and talking about it. Bill Wallace it's always a pleasure and I still love the cap.

Bill Wallace:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Directly following Horizon stay tuned for Arizona Stories. You can see the entire story of the Picacho Pass. Airs stories people, place and history that makes Arizona unique airs every Tuesday at 7:30 p.m.

Michael Grant:
Thanks for joining us this evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Good night.

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