Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

February 23, 2006


Host: Michael Grant

Honeywell scholarships


Guests:
  • Russell Pearce - State Representative
  • Bill Brotherton - State senator


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on Horizon the Arizona legislature takes on immigration employer sanctions, legislators kicking around ideas to crack down on the increasing number of working illegal immigrants in Arizona. A legislator has posed a bill that would impose fines on employers who hire undocumented workers.

Michael Grant:
Arizona high school students go to Washington, Honeywell awards scholarships to students to learn more about science, technology and public policy. We'll talk to a Honeywell recipient about that unique program. All that next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by The Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Before and after the governor's state of the state address legislators have been kicking around ideas on how best to stem the flow of undocumented workers in our state. Some say working visas might do the trick, others say mandatory name checks on job applicants will help. Others say sanctioning employers for hiring illegal immigrants is where they should begin. Recently several bills introduced in senate committees. A few have passed and are on the way to the legislative floor. In our studio tonight we will talk with one legislator who has introduced a couple of bills on the subject and we'll bring you an interview with representative Russell Pearce who also introduced his own bill. Mike Sauceda brings us the story of an Arizona company who has for years required checking the names of their applicants prior to making a hire.

Mike Sauceda: For 24 years now, Bar-S has been making hot dogs, corn dogs, bacon, sausage and bologna, in total 250 meat and processed cheese products. For the past few years, Bar-S, which has more than 1500 employees, has been using an innovative program to make sure their employees are legally entitled to work in the United States. Marty Thompson is vice president of human resources at Bar-S. His company started using social security's pilot system to verify the validity of social security numbers in 1996.

Marty Thompson:
We have the obligation to follow the law. We want to be good citizens. On the other side, selfishly, previous to the pilot program we have had audits by the INS they have checked our documents, and many times that creates a lot of paperwork and a lot of havoc in the environment. Those are not simple processes. By doing this it was our opinion we could avoid those audits.

Mike Sauceda:
Bar-S is one of some 100 Arizona businesses using the system. Nationwide just over 4,000 companies use it. It's not mandatory but is available nationwide to verify a social security number an employer enters basic information about the prospective employee, name, social security number, birth date and citizen status. The information is sent to social security for verification with results coming back almost instantly. If the number is bad the prospective employee is given a chance to fix the problem.

Marty Thompson:
About 8\% of the time we will ask an employee, potential employee to take this to the social security department to get this corrected, come back and we'll complete the hiring process. If they don't come back, there's a chance that they had a problem with the document and went across the street or down the road to another company. We don't know that. We have had people come back indicating, yes, there was a name change, I forgot. We made the hire.

Mike Sauceda:
Thompson says the program has helped get word out on the street that Bar-S is not a place to apply if you have fraudulent documents.

Marty Thompson:
That's been a great help to us early in the program when we first started to work with the pilot program. We probably had about 30\% of the employees that were sent through the social security check fall out. And had bad documentation. We couldn't hire them. That number is down around 6 to 8\% at this time. The word did get out in the communities in which we hire, That's been the biggest deterrent. It's been very good for us. The other side of it is it doesn't necessarily help us competitively. The companies that don't do that are pulling the employees we can't get. There is a little bit of hurt with that.

Mike Sauceda:
There are a couple of problems left even with the system.

Marty Thompson:
There's two problems we have. Two problems with the current system. One is identity theft. That's tough. There's no way that we as an employer can beat that. The other is the discrepancies that we experience between the INS and social security. One of those, the biggest issue is names. We have a name that is Jones, Smith, or Gonzalez-Fernandez, and the INS will document that one way, social security will document another way, switch that. Those two agencies need to fix that.

Mike Sauceda:
Thompson says Bar-S would like to help out the government, by reporting fraudulent social security numbers.

Marty Thompson:
If, for example, we go through the pilot security program and identify someone that did not have the proper papers to work here legally, what do we do? We send them to social security. We've lost an opportunity for enforcement. I don't want that to be the employers job to track that person down but there should be a way the red flag can go up and say this person does not have the proper documentation we need to deal with that. I imagine that would be a full-time job for a lot of people to try and regulate that, but the employer can't be held responsible for that.

Michael Grant:
Joining us tonight to talk about employer sanctions is state senator Bill Brotherton. We asked other legislators with differing views to come on the show this night, but their scheduled would not permit it. Senator Brotherton good to see you again.

Bill Brotherton:
Good to be here.

Michael Grant:
You had two bills, one of which didn't make it. It would have required use by employers of the system we just saw.

Bill Brotherton:
That's correct. That bill died 4-4 in the commerce committee. The other bill passed 5-2.

Michael Grant:
The main rap that I have heard by some on this is there's a reason it's called a pilot program. It's not as reliable as you would think, and particularly if a whole lot of people -- it's great that Bar-S has had the experience, but if a whole lot of businesses started using it would tax the system and make it more unreliable. What do you say?

Bill Brotherton:
Well, if the entire 50 states did, that's true. It started out, the name was basic pilot program ten years ago. So it's not really a pilot program any more, that was just the name that stuck with it.

Michael Grant:
It's the old pilot program.

Bill Brotherton:
Yes, since 1996. The reality is that, yes, if we went to all 50 states there would be some problems with the system being overtaxed, but we're not talking about all 50 states, I'm just talking about Arizona. In discussion with folks I have been willing to narrow it down to some of the high risk industries. But the chamber of commerce has basically said they don't want this at all under any circumstances.

Michael Grant:
The bill you've got that is still alive that has cleared commerce committee --

Bill Brotherton:
Correct.

Michael Grant:
Is just simply an employer sanctioned bill, a civil sanctioned bill. Explain the details.

Bill Brotherton:
Basically this is an employer knowingly hires someone undocumented, doesn't have a right to work here. They can be civilly sanctioned up to $5,000. That would be something the attorney general would enforce. Would impose those fines.

Michael Grant:
How do you demonstrate knowingly in this context? If you don't have some kind of system, for example, like the one we just saw?

Bill Brotherton:
That was why the two bills came together was to give a verification. Right now the federal law says if you have a good faith belief that the person can work you can hire him. What that's done is it means that we've created a good forgery industry. If good forgeries come out you can hire the people. That was why I thought we needed the verification bill. But there are situations in which people are not using good forgeries, not using proper documentation. So there are ways to show that those folks are knowingly doing that or other types of practices such as paying people by cash or under the table or things like that.

Michael Grant:
What's the hang-up on this legislation? I was somewhat surprised when we put a question on the poll, as you know, and you reminded me the result was 80\% of Arizonans supporting employer sanctions. Obviously, however, the concept fairly slow going at the Arizona legislature. Why so with that kind of level seemingly of public support?

Bill Brotherton:
I think it's because there's a great deal of influence that the business community especially through the chambers of commerce, Arizona chamber of commerce in particular, has on the republican controlled legislature. It was difficult for me to even get my bills heard, let alone be able to get them out of committee. I'm not taking any bets on whether it's going to move farther in the process because there's a lot of opposition in the business community to doing this.

Michael Grant:
On the other hand, though, representative Russell Pearce on the house side has a bill that cracks down fairly strongly. It's moving to a third read over there. Is a bipartisan combination possible?

Bill Brotherton:
I think that's possible. I know that his bill has gotten some bipartisan support in the house. The difference is Russell Pearce is chairman of appropriations in the house. I'm not chairman of anything. He is in the majority party in the house. So that gives him some extra pull to push that out of the house. Whether or not it will get out of the senate is another story.

Michael Grant:
It's not unusual as you know for bills to have what is frequently referred to as gestation period. They pass maybe about the third session around. I think people are growing -- they are already there, but they are growing increasingly concerned about all aspects of the problem of illegal immigration. Is this maybe a concept that requires a gestation period over a couple three sessions?

Bill Brotherton:
This is the second year I have done it, I think it's the third year representative Pierce has pushed a bill of this nature. People are realizing this is a supply and demand issue, that these ideas of sanctioning these immigrants, which are poor folks coming for jobs, is not even going to get close to dealing with the problem, that we also have to deal with what is pulling them up here, which is readily available jobs from citizens who have businesses here.

Michael Grant:
In some fairness to employers and business, they say, listen, until you have got a cohesive immigration policy including but not limited to maybe a guest worker program, it simply is unfair to single us out and to impose fines and sanctions on us. What do you say to that?

Bill Brotherton:
It's hypocrisy to single out the immigrants under those same circumstances, I think. Either we need to approach this in a holistic policy looking at both sides or we need to push on the federal side. I support a guest worker program, but I think the idea of just going after the immigrants is unjust and hypocritical on our parts.

Michael Grant:
All right. Senator Bill Brotherton, thank you for joining us. As we mentioned earlier, we were able to talk with representative Russell Pearce at his office. This is what he had to say about his efforts to pass another bill, house bill 2577.

Russell K. Parse:
Basic pilot program is what it's called. Not only that, but also a company injured by another company has a right to file on them. They will investigate. If they are issued a cease an desist and fail to do so they will be find $5,000 per incident. This is a great bill that goes after the employer and holds them accountable. The issue is knowingly. I guarantee if you knowingly hire an illegal you're part of the program. This is the fourth year I have ran that bill. It's a good bill. I have worked with national experts on immigration and lawyers and attorneys from back east and Washington and here locally. It's a well-written bill. For four years they have fought me on this issue. Not one democrat has joined me on this issue. Some republicans have not joined me, shame on them, but not one democrat has joined me in four years.

Michael Grant:
More than a dozen Arizona high school students are going to travel to our nation's capital next week to meet with Washington's top political, business and community leaders. Honeywell awarded scholarships to these Arizona high school juniors and seniors to attend the highly selective public policy program Presidential Classroom. It offers outstanding students the opportunity to get a behind the scenes look at the interrelationships of science, technology and public policy by interacting with policy makers and notable institutions. 13 young Arizonans just a few of the 130 recipients from 22 countries and 22 US states. Awarded scholarships to attend the Presidential Classroom. Here's a look at what presidential classroom has to offer.

Students:
Welcome to Washington DC! This is Presidential Classroom!

Jack Buechner:
You're going to get a lot of tastes. Intertwined with those tastes is going to be a lot of where does government and public policy come in? If you're interested in becoming a doctor, you better know something about public policy. We hope that this week you're going to get an opportunity to learn from some of this and learn from a variety of people who come from all disciplines of science and technology.

Greg Pearson:
Technology is much bigger than computers.

Igor Palley:
For the success of an invention, for the success of progress you need free system, free enterprise. You need corporations.

James D. Fonger:
The scanners are getting so good now that we think we'll probably be able to move from doing those catheterizations to just doing the scan.

Russell Schillings:
We're also investing in drugs that can actually reverse hearing loss, re-grow the sensory cells in the ear.

John Peterson:
Anywhere in the universe that there are radio waves there's energy everywhere. We're on the verge in your lifetime of being able to tap that information.

Tom Buckmaster: Always try to keep a mind as open to new ideas and new friends and new concepts as you possibly can. Because it's that openness to new ideas, that openness to opportunity that at the end of the day we will create more texture and more joy and more passion in your life.

Lecturer:
I'm going to talk some about what the national academies are but I'm going to save that for after I have talked about the subject that you've already --

Presidential Classroom Participant 1:
You spoke about computer viruses and Spam. What is being done to alleviate this problem?

Presidential Classroom Participant 2:
I would like you to tell us everything you know about fuel cell technology.

Presidential Classroom Participant 3:
Do you think the American public is ready for a system of voting that would rely solely on electronics that has polling places at home?

Presidential Classroom Participant 4:
I know the reports the national academies produce are probably the most credible reports there are. But I don't really know how to phrase this question so I'll ask it bluntly. How much attention are you guys paid?

Greg Pearson:
When there are things that go wrong or high profile health issues in particular, I think we get listened to quite a bit. Otherwise it's much more small audience that we're trying to reach.

Lecturer 2:
I am an industrial scientist and an industrial inventor. I'm defending the role of industrial inventors now.

Presidential Classroom Participant 5:
As an engineer, what do you think the government's role in regulating the nation space industry should be?

Presidential Classroom Participant 6:
Do you think it's right for the government to be able to ban embryonic stem cell research?

Presidential Classroom Participant 7:
What is your opinion on the regulations and obstacles that the government imposes on research?

Igor Palley:
Reasonable regulations are reasonable. They should be applied, of course. It's not nothing wrong with that. We are for ethics and everything. For ethical research. I'm for it, of course.

John Barrow:
I think it's important for folks who care about research and development and scientific progress to get involved in the political process because that's where so much of our research and development comes from, it's funded through a process that's regulated by law and support given from the political branches of government. It's important for folks who have that as part of their future that they understand the political process better.

John Theme:
It's a great program for young people from my state of South Dakota to participate. Gives them an opportunity to see up close and personal the political process. It immerses them in discussions about policies and issues and hopefully will inspire them as they get older and go on with their lives to be involved in public service.

Chet Edwards:
The future of our country depends on our youth being involved in our political and economic system. That's why I think as an alumnus of presidential classroom, as a congressman and a father I think it's important for our sons and daughters to come to Washington DC, be involved in this vitally important program to teach our youth firsthand about the strengths and blessings of our democracy as well as how we all have to work together to preserve our democracy and freedoms for future generations.

Michael Grant:
Among the 13 Arizona recipients attending the elite program are students from Broil College Prep, Chandler, Hamilton, Barry Goldwater, Sandra Day O'Connor, Red Mountain, Chaparral high schools as well as Faith Christian School, joining us to talk about the scholarship are Don Wilt, director of public affairs for Honeywell aerospace and Honeywell scholar recipient Dustin Young of Gilbert High School. Welcome.

Dustin Young:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Your brother attended last year.

Dustin Young:
Yes.

Michael Grant:
Has he filled you in?

Dustin Young:
It was a really good experience for him and he told me a lot about it.

Michael Grant:
Don, the Presidential Classroom has been around since 1969. How did Honeywell -- this is the second year --

Don Wilt:
The second year that Honeywell has been involved. We got involved because Honeywell has identified several areas in the community that we think need special attention and science and math education is one of those. We're at an interesting juncture in our national history where we have this wonderful record of scientific and technological accomplishment going to the moon and into space, and yet right now the technological jobs are growing at about three times the rate that other occupations are growing, but the number of students who are enrolling in science and math and technological studies is declining. So this is our attempt to try to do something about that and to get kids like Dustin interested in science and math and technology.

Michael Grant:
Why the interest, Dustin?

Dustin Young:
I don't know, math and science like make sense. Two plus two is always four. Always the same. I have always been pretty good at it. What you're good at you usually like.

Michael Grant:
What about the public policy aspect of it? Asking -- we saw several questions being asked there. Is that intriguing as well?

Dustin Young:
Yes, I have always liked government, seeing how government works with business and things like that. It will be really cool.

Michael Grant:
Don, give us some idea of the program activities, what will be going on next week.

Don Wilt:
Well, if you're the kind of person interested in government and how it works and how scientific innovations really eventually find their way into real applications and so fort, this will be an exciting week. These kids are going to see it in action. They are going to visit the supreme court. They are going to have a personal session with the secretary of agriculture. They are really going to see Congress in action on the floor. They are really going to get a behind the scenes view of how our government works and meet with some of the most important people and business leaders and journalists in our nation's capital.

Michael Grant:
Given that list of activities, Dustin, anything -- most in particular that you're looking forward to or that you have greatest interest in?

Dustin Young:
Well, I like to see Washington DC it's a great city, all the monuments and stuff, and seeing people from all around the world. Everybody is going from like 22 countries. I think it will be really cool to see that, meet people.

Michael Grant:
What about some of the sessions involving the q and a interchange? A little hard to get up in front of people and ask questions. Are you going to wait for somebody else to break the ice or are you the one that grabs the microphone and says, it's mine?

Dustin Young:
I think I will probably grab the microphone. I have always liked to debate, discuss things. They have things called cross-fire where you debate things. You ask questions and you go back and forth. Not to decide who wins, just good debate discussing both sides of the issue.

Michael Grant:
Did your brother have good tips for you, what to do, what not to do?

Dustin Young:
Yes. I'll keep those a secret.

Michael Grant:
How many scholarships has Honeywell awarded on in.

Don Wilt:
130 to students from all over the world. 13 of them right here in Arizona, so that makes about 10\% of the winners coming from our own state.

Michael Grant:
Particular criteria, don, that Honeywell applies?

Don Wilt:
These students have to really prove themselves. They have to first demonstrate a record of academic achievement by having earned a 3.5 grade point average. They also have to demonstrate through written essay that they submit that they have the abilities to absorb and make the most of this experience.

Michael Grant:
I take it the selection process and getting that stuff together runs over some period of time.

Don Wilt:
It does. It starts quite a long while back. As I say, we look at lots and lots of applications. Dustin and his other colleagues from Arizona should be very proud of their achievement. We're very proud of them.

Michael Grant:
Sustaining program for Honeywell?

Don Wilt:
Absolutely. This is part of what Honeywell calls Honeywell Hometown Solutions. it's our community outreach program. As I say, we try to address a lot of critical needs, this being one of them. We're in it for the long haul.

Michael Grant:
Dustin what are your plans for the future? What are you interested in ultimately?

Dustin Young:
Well, I like to go into something with law or politics or become an engineer, physicist. I like physics in school. Then like arguing on the part of lawyers. That would be fun. They are both fairly good paying jobs, so I would like to be financially secure in the future.

Michael Grant:
Lawyers don't argue all the time. Sometimes they conciliate. You can do both. What the heck. Dustin Young, congratulations to you. I'm sure you'll have a great experience in the nation's capital. Don Wilt, our thanks to you as well. Our thanks to Honeywell. Good program.

Don Wilt:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
You can get transcripts and for that matter information about upcoming shows from our website at www.azpbs.org. Click on horizon in the middle of the screen. Please join us tomorrow for the weekly journalists round table where we will kick around the current issues in the state and discuss the week's news events. Thank you for joining us on this Thursday edition of Horizon. 18 I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Goodnight.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by The Friends of Channel 8, members of this PBS station. Thank you.

Immigration employer sanctions


Guests:
  • Russell Pearce - State Representative
  • Bill Brotherton - State senator


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight on Horizon the Arizona legislature takes on immigration employer sanctions, legislators kicking around ideas to crack down on the increasing number of working illegal immigrants in Arizona. A legislator has posed a bill that would impose fines on employers who hire undocumented workers.

Michael Grant:
Arizona high school students go to Washington, Honeywell awards scholarships to students to learn more about science, technology and public policy. We'll talk to a Honeywell recipient about that unique program. All that next on Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by The Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Welcome to Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Before and after the governor's state of the state address legislators have been kicking around ideas on how best to stem the flow of undocumented workers in our state. Some say working visas might do the trick, others say mandatory name checks on job applicants will help. Others say sanctioning employers for hiring illegal immigrants is where they should begin. Recently several bills introduced in senate committees. A few have passed and are on the way to the legislative floor. In our studio tonight we will talk with one legislator who has introduced a couple of bills on the subject and we'll bring you an interview with representative Russell Pearce who also introduced his own bill. Mike Sauceda brings us the story of an Arizona company who has for years required checking the names of their applicants prior to making a hire.

Mike Sauceda: For 24 years now, Bar-S has been making hot dogs, corn dogs, bacon, sausage and bologna, in total 250 meat and processed cheese products. For the past few years, Bar-S, which has more than 1500 employees, has been using an innovative program to make sure their employees are legally entitled to work in the United States. Marty Thompson is vice president of human resources at Bar-S. His company started using social security's pilot system to verify the validity of social security numbers in 1996.

Marty Thompson:
We have the obligation to follow the law. We want to be good citizens. On the other side, selfishly, previous to the pilot program we have had audits by the INS they have checked our documents, and many times that creates a lot of paperwork and a lot of havoc in the environment. Those are not simple processes. By doing this it was our opinion we could avoid those audits.

Mike Sauceda:
Bar-S is one of some 100 Arizona businesses using the system. Nationwide just over 4,000 companies use it. It's not mandatory but is available nationwide to verify a social security number an employer enters basic information about the prospective employee, name, social security number, birth date and citizen status. The information is sent to social security for verification with results coming back almost instantly. If the number is bad the prospective employee is given a chance to fix the problem.

Marty Thompson:
About 8\% of the time we will ask an employee, potential employee to take this to the social security department to get this corrected, come back and we'll complete the hiring process. If they don't come back, there's a chance that they had a problem with the document and went across the street or down the road to another company. We don't know that. We have had people come back indicating, yes, there was a name change, I forgot. We made the hire.

Mike Sauceda:
Thompson says the program has helped get word out on the street that Bar-S is not a place to apply if you have fraudulent documents.

Marty Thompson:
That's been a great help to us early in the program when we first started to work with the pilot program. We probably had about 30\% of the employees that were sent through the social security check fall out. And had bad documentation. We couldn't hire them. That number is down around 6 to 8\% at this time. The word did get out in the communities in which we hire, That's been the biggest deterrent. It's been very good for us. The other side of it is it doesn't necessarily help us competitively. The companies that don't do that are pulling the employees we can't get. There is a little bit of hurt with that.

Mike Sauceda:
There are a couple of problems left even with the system.

Marty Thompson:
There's two problems we have. Two problems with the current system. One is identity theft. That's tough. There's no way that we as an employer can beat that. The other is the discrepancies that we experience between the INS and social security. One of those, the biggest issue is names. We have a name that is Jones, Smith, or Gonzalez-Fernandez, and the INS will document that one way, social security will document another way, switch that. Those two agencies need to fix that.

Mike Sauceda:
Thompson says Bar-S would like to help out the government, by reporting fraudulent social security numbers.

Marty Thompson:
If, for example, we go through the pilot security program and identify someone that did not have the proper papers to work here legally, what do we do? We send them to social security. We've lost an opportunity for enforcement. I don't want that to be the employers job to track that person down but there should be a way the red flag can go up and say this person does not have the proper documentation we need to deal with that. I imagine that would be a full-time job for a lot of people to try and regulate that, but the employer can't be held responsible for that.

Michael Grant:
Joining us tonight to talk about employer sanctions is state senator Bill Brotherton. We asked other legislators with differing views to come on the show this night, but their scheduled would not permit it. Senator Brotherton good to see you again.

Bill Brotherton:
Good to be here.

Michael Grant:
You had two bills, one of which didn't make it. It would have required use by employers of the system we just saw.

Bill Brotherton:
That's correct. That bill died 4-4 in the commerce committee. The other bill passed 5-2.

Michael Grant:
The main rap that I have heard by some on this is there's a reason it's called a pilot program. It's not as reliable as you would think, and particularly if a whole lot of people -- it's great that Bar-S has had the experience, but if a whole lot of businesses started using it would tax the system and make it more unreliable. What do you say?

Bill Brotherton:
Well, if the entire 50 states did, that's true. It started out, the name was basic pilot program ten years ago. So it's not really a pilot program any more, that was just the name that stuck with it.

Michael Grant:
It's the old pilot program.

Bill Brotherton:
Yes, since 1996. The reality is that, yes, if we went to all 50 states there would be some problems with the system being overtaxed, but we're not talking about all 50 states, I'm just talking about Arizona. In discussion with folks I have been willing to narrow it down to some of the high risk industries. But the chamber of commerce has basically said they don't want this at all under any circumstances.

Michael Grant:
The bill you've got that is still alive that has cleared commerce committee --

Bill Brotherton:
Correct.

Michael Grant:
Is just simply an employer sanctioned bill, a civil sanctioned bill. Explain the details.

Bill Brotherton:
Basically this is an employer knowingly hires someone undocumented, doesn't have a right to work here. They can be civilly sanctioned up to $5,000. That would be something the attorney general would enforce. Would impose those fines.

Michael Grant:
How do you demonstrate knowingly in this context? If you don't have some kind of system, for example, like the one we just saw?

Bill Brotherton:
That was why the two bills came together was to give a verification. Right now the federal law says if you have a good faith belief that the person can work you can hire him. What that's done is it means that we've created a good forgery industry. If good forgeries come out you can hire the people. That was why I thought we needed the verification bill. But there are situations in which people are not using good forgeries, not using proper documentation. So there are ways to show that those folks are knowingly doing that or other types of practices such as paying people by cash or under the table or things like that.

Michael Grant:
What's the hang-up on this legislation? I was somewhat surprised when we put a question on the poll, as you know, and you reminded me the result was 80\% of Arizonans supporting employer sanctions. Obviously, however, the concept fairly slow going at the Arizona legislature. Why so with that kind of level seemingly of public support?

Bill Brotherton:
I think it's because there's a great deal of influence that the business community especially through the chambers of commerce, Arizona chamber of commerce in particular, has on the republican controlled legislature. It was difficult for me to even get my bills heard, let alone be able to get them out of committee. I'm not taking any bets on whether it's going to move farther in the process because there's a lot of opposition in the business community to doing this.

Michael Grant:
On the other hand, though, representative Russell Pearce on the house side has a bill that cracks down fairly strongly. It's moving to a third read over there. Is a bipartisan combination possible?

Bill Brotherton:
I think that's possible. I know that his bill has gotten some bipartisan support in the house. The difference is Russell Pearce is chairman of appropriations in the house. I'm not chairman of anything. He is in the majority party in the house. So that gives him some extra pull to push that out of the house. Whether or not it will get out of the senate is another story.

Michael Grant:
It's not unusual as you know for bills to have what is frequently referred to as gestation period. They pass maybe about the third session around. I think people are growing -- they are already there, but they are growing increasingly concerned about all aspects of the problem of illegal immigration. Is this maybe a concept that requires a gestation period over a couple three sessions?

Bill Brotherton:
This is the second year I have done it, I think it's the third year representative Pierce has pushed a bill of this nature. People are realizing this is a supply and demand issue, that these ideas of sanctioning these immigrants, which are poor folks coming for jobs, is not even going to get close to dealing with the problem, that we also have to deal with what is pulling them up here, which is readily available jobs from citizens who have businesses here.

Michael Grant:
In some fairness to employers and business, they say, listen, until you have got a cohesive immigration policy including but not limited to maybe a guest worker program, it simply is unfair to single us out and to impose fines and sanctions on us. What do you say to that?

Bill Brotherton:
It's hypocrisy to single out the immigrants under those same circumstances, I think. Either we need to approach this in a holistic policy looking at both sides or we need to push on the federal side. I support a guest worker program, but I think the idea of just going after the immigrants is unjust and hypocritical on our parts.

Michael Grant:
All right. Senator Bill Brotherton, thank you for joining us. As we mentioned earlier, we were able to talk with representative Russell Pearce at his office. This is what he had to say about his efforts to pass another bill, house bill 2577.

Russell K. Parse:
Basic pilot program is what it's called. Not only that, but also a company injured by another company has a right to file on them. They will investigate. If they are issued a cease an desist and fail to do so they will be find $5,000 per incident. This is a great bill that goes after the employer and holds them accountable. The issue is knowingly. I guarantee if you knowingly hire an illegal you're part of the program. This is the fourth year I have ran that bill. It's a good bill. I have worked with national experts on immigration and lawyers and attorneys from back east and Washington and here locally. It's a well-written bill. For four years they have fought me on this issue. Not one democrat has joined me on this issue. Some republicans have not joined me, shame on them, but not one democrat has joined me in four years.

Michael Grant:
More than a dozen Arizona high school students are going to travel to our nation's capital next week to meet with Washington's top political, business and community leaders. Honeywell awarded scholarships to these Arizona high school juniors and seniors to attend the highly selective public policy program Presidential Classroom. It offers outstanding students the opportunity to get a behind the scenes look at the interrelationships of science, technology and public policy by interacting with policy makers and notable institutions. 13 young Arizonans just a few of the 130 recipients from 22 countries and 22 US states. Awarded scholarships to attend the Presidential Classroom. Here's a look at what presidential classroom has to offer.

Students:
Welcome to Washington DC! This is Presidential Classroom!

Jack Buechner:
You're going to get a lot of tastes. Intertwined with those tastes is going to be a lot of where does government and public policy come in? If you're interested in becoming a doctor, you better know something about public policy. We hope that this week you're going to get an opportunity to learn from some of this and learn from a variety of people who come from all disciplines of science and technology.

Greg Pearson:
Technology is much bigger than computers.

Igor Palley:
For the success of an invention, for the success of progress you need free system, free enterprise. You need corporations.

James D. Fonger:
The scanners are getting so good now that we think we'll probably be able to move from doing those catheterizations to just doing the scan.

Russell Schillings:
We're also investing in drugs that can actually reverse hearing loss, re-grow the sensory cells in the ear.

John Peterson:
Anywhere in the universe that there are radio waves there's energy everywhere. We're on the verge in your lifetime of being able to tap that information.

Tom Buckmaster: Always try to keep a mind as open to new ideas and new friends and new concepts as you possibly can. Because it's that openness to new ideas, that openness to opportunity that at the end of the day we will create more texture and more joy and more passion in your life.

Lecturer:
I'm going to talk some about what the national academies are but I'm going to save that for after I have talked about the subject that you've already --

Presidential Classroom Participant 1:
You spoke about computer viruses and Spam. What is being done to alleviate this problem?

Presidential Classroom Participant 2:
I would like you to tell us everything you know about fuel cell technology.

Presidential Classroom Participant 3:
Do you think the American public is ready for a system of voting that would rely solely on electronics that has polling places at home?

Presidential Classroom Participant 4:
I know the reports the national academies produce are probably the most credible reports there are. But I don't really know how to phrase this question so I'll ask it bluntly. How much attention are you guys paid?

Greg Pearson:
When there are things that go wrong or high profile health issues in particular, I think we get listened to quite a bit. Otherwise it's much more small audience that we're trying to reach.

Lecturer 2:
I am an industrial scientist and an industrial inventor. I'm defending the role of industrial inventors now.

Presidential Classroom Participant 5:
As an engineer, what do you think the government's role in regulating the nation space industry should be?

Presidential Classroom Participant 6:
Do you think it's right for the government to be able to ban embryonic stem cell research?

Presidential Classroom Participant 7:
What is your opinion on the regulations and obstacles that the government imposes on research?

Igor Palley:
Reasonable regulations are reasonable. They should be applied, of course. It's not nothing wrong with that. We are for ethics and everything. For ethical research. I'm for it, of course.

John Barrow:
I think it's important for folks who care about research and development and scientific progress to get involved in the political process because that's where so much of our research and development comes from, it's funded through a process that's regulated by law and support given from the political branches of government. It's important for folks who have that as part of their future that they understand the political process better.

John Theme:
It's a great program for young people from my state of South Dakota to participate. Gives them an opportunity to see up close and personal the political process. It immerses them in discussions about policies and issues and hopefully will inspire them as they get older and go on with their lives to be involved in public service.

Chet Edwards:
The future of our country depends on our youth being involved in our political and economic system. That's why I think as an alumnus of presidential classroom, as a congressman and a father I think it's important for our sons and daughters to come to Washington DC, be involved in this vitally important program to teach our youth firsthand about the strengths and blessings of our democracy as well as how we all have to work together to preserve our democracy and freedoms for future generations.

Michael Grant:
Among the 13 Arizona recipients attending the elite program are students from Broil College Prep, Chandler, Hamilton, Barry Goldwater, Sandra Day O'Connor, Red Mountain, Chaparral high schools as well as Faith Christian School, joining us to talk about the scholarship are Don Wilt, director of public affairs for Honeywell aerospace and Honeywell scholar recipient Dustin Young of Gilbert High School. Welcome.

Dustin Young:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Your brother attended last year.

Dustin Young:
Yes.

Michael Grant:
Has he filled you in?

Dustin Young:
It was a really good experience for him and he told me a lot about it.

Michael Grant:
Don, the Presidential Classroom has been around since 1969. How did Honeywell -- this is the second year --

Don Wilt:
The second year that Honeywell has been involved. We got involved because Honeywell has identified several areas in the community that we think need special attention and science and math education is one of those. We're at an interesting juncture in our national history where we have this wonderful record of scientific and technological accomplishment going to the moon and into space, and yet right now the technological jobs are growing at about three times the rate that other occupations are growing, but the number of students who are enrolling in science and math and technological studies is declining. So this is our attempt to try to do something about that and to get kids like Dustin interested in science and math and technology.

Michael Grant:
Why the interest, Dustin?

Dustin Young:
I don't know, math and science like make sense. Two plus two is always four. Always the same. I have always been pretty good at it. What you're good at you usually like.

Michael Grant:
What about the public policy aspect of it? Asking -- we saw several questions being asked there. Is that intriguing as well?

Dustin Young:
Yes, I have always liked government, seeing how government works with business and things like that. It will be really cool.

Michael Grant:
Don, give us some idea of the program activities, what will be going on next week.

Don Wilt:
Well, if you're the kind of person interested in government and how it works and how scientific innovations really eventually find their way into real applications and so fort, this will be an exciting week. These kids are going to see it in action. They are going to visit the supreme court. They are going to have a personal session with the secretary of agriculture. They are really going to see Congress in action on the floor. They are really going to get a behind the scenes view of how our government works and meet with some of the most important people and business leaders and journalists in our nation's capital.

Michael Grant:
Given that list of activities, Dustin, anything -- most in particular that you're looking forward to or that you have greatest interest in?

Dustin Young:
Well, I like to see Washington DC it's a great city, all the monuments and stuff, and seeing people from all around the world. Everybody is going from like 22 countries. I think it will be really cool to see that, meet people.

Michael Grant:
What about some of the sessions involving the q and a interchange? A little hard to get up in front of people and ask questions. Are you going to wait for somebody else to break the ice or are you the one that grabs the microphone and says, it's mine?

Dustin Young:
I think I will probably grab the microphone. I have always liked to debate, discuss things. They have things called cross-fire where you debate things. You ask questions and you go back and forth. Not to decide who wins, just good debate discussing both sides of the issue.

Michael Grant:
Did your brother have good tips for you, what to do, what not to do?

Dustin Young:
Yes. I'll keep those a secret.

Michael Grant:
How many scholarships has Honeywell awarded on in.

Don Wilt:
130 to students from all over the world. 13 of them right here in Arizona, so that makes about 10\% of the winners coming from our own state.

Michael Grant:
Particular criteria, don, that Honeywell applies?

Don Wilt:
These students have to really prove themselves. They have to first demonstrate a record of academic achievement by having earned a 3.5 grade point average. They also have to demonstrate through written essay that they submit that they have the abilities to absorb and make the most of this experience.

Michael Grant:
I take it the selection process and getting that stuff together runs over some period of time.

Don Wilt:
It does. It starts quite a long while back. As I say, we look at lots and lots of applications. Dustin and his other colleagues from Arizona should be very proud of their achievement. We're very proud of them.

Michael Grant:
Sustaining program for Honeywell?

Don Wilt:
Absolutely. This is part of what Honeywell calls Honeywell Hometown Solutions. it's our community outreach program. As I say, we try to address a lot of critical needs, this being one of them. We're in it for the long haul.

Michael Grant:
Dustin what are your plans for the future? What are you interested in ultimately?

Dustin Young:
Well, I like to go into something with law or politics or become an engineer, physicist. I like physics in school. Then like arguing on the part of lawyers. That would be fun. They are both fairly good paying jobs, so I would like to be financially secure in the future.

Michael Grant:
Lawyers don't argue all the time. Sometimes they conciliate. You can do both. What the heck. Dustin Young, congratulations to you. I'm sure you'll have a great experience in the nation's capital. Don Wilt, our thanks to you as well. Our thanks to Honeywell. Good program.

Don Wilt:
Thank you.

Michael Grant:
You can get transcripts and for that matter information about upcoming shows from our website at www.azpbs.org. Click on horizon in the middle of the screen. Please join us tomorrow for the weekly journalists round table where we will kick around the current issues in the state and discuss the week's news events. Thank you for joining us on this Thursday edition of Horizon. 18 I'm Michael Grant. Have a great one. Goodnight.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by The Friends of Channel 8, members of this PBS station. Thank you.

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