Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

February 7, 2006


Host: Michael Grant

Four-year degrees at community colleges


Guests:
  • Laura Knaperck - Representative
  • Ernest Calderon - Board of Regents


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight, on Horizon. In the state legislature in an effort to allow community colleges to offer four year degrees. And we'll tell you about a joint U of A National Geographic program designed to provide a picture of the human family through DNA testing.

Announcer: Horizon is made possible by The Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Thanks for joining me tonight on Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Today the House committee of universities, community colleges, and technology, heard comments about a proposed strike everything amendment to house bill 2050 that would among other things, would allow community colleges to offer and confer limited four year baccalaureate degrees. Only last week Arizona board of regents approving recommendations from a joint conference committee of the community colleges and university, which would among other things, would develop a pathway for four year degrees at community colleges. But private schools aren't necessarily on board. Here are a few highlights of the committee meeting this afternoon.

Laura Knaperck:
Let me just start with last year's bill. So I think it would be helpful for those of you that remember last year's bill, house bill 2079, what we tried to do were several different things. In fact, the provisions from 2079 are in here. Some are barely recognizable. But the basic theme of the student centered higher education system is in this bill. So there is a financial aid piece, there is also an additional building renewal for FTE, for the universities in this bill. There's also the elimination of equalization in this bill and the allowance of EAC to become a state college as was in the bill last year. The difference has to do with how we're going to go about allowing and if we allow community colleges to offer baccalaureate degrees. I should strike the striker. It's really a strike everything amendment to the bill. In the striker what we do is we say, okay. Community colleges may offer certain types of baccalaureate degrees and has to do with allied health only. They can also be allowed to offer 300 level classes if they have an agreement and only if they have an agreement with an Arizona public university or private university to offer the 400-degree so that those credits would transfer. Then the other thing we do is we set into statute a state board. And the state board resembles the state charter school board. It has 11 members. They would be reviewing and approving or rejecting applications for either baccalaureate degrees at community colleges or new state colleges, four year teaching institutions in the state of Arizona.

Michael Hunter:
The summary of the joints that the JCC recommendations make are found on page 7 of 13. Points 1 through 6 are the recommendations to increase transfer credits for select programs, to increase the number and scope of community college university partnerships, to establish joint funding models, to expand the Arizona university system campuses and statewide programs and to develop a pathway for baccalaureate degrees at community colleges. Yes, the Arizona board of regents voted for a recommendation that includes language that you see there. Develop a pathway for baccalaureate degrees at community colleges. And then explore the need and create a pathway for a four year regional degree granting sledge. So a lot of what I think representative Laura Knaperek is trying to achieve is incorporated into this. One of the things that I think through this process, as you all know, different agencies, different associations, JOBC and OSPB, they often come to you with data answering the same questions in very different ways. And it doesn't always benefit the process to be pointing at each other's data with distrust. What happens here with JCC is that you will have a process where the universities and the community colleges agree on a methodology, they agree on a study. They then conduct the study. And you don't have that finger pointing back and forth about the credibility of the data and the conclusions.

Ted Downing:
As we go through in discussion of redesign, the parties that are at the table, all of them have conflicting points of view because they all see the -- you run the university of Arizona or ASU or whatever you do and that's your bag. What's missing here -- and the chairwoman can be congratulated for this. She realized there was a need for big picture from 40,000 feet. And I jealously, jealously guard the right of academic freedom that the governing boards of the institutions maintain that right to make decisions on things like what degrees they get. And I'll hold to that position. But on the other hand I equally jealously hold to the right of the legislature to make and control that decision as to where these institutions will be, how they'll be financed. It's what of a balancing act here. I think as we move through this I want to make sure that JCC does not have the impression that it's making the decision as to where this community college will be, how it will be financed. Those decisions I think have to take place at the grass roots level and even beyond the legislature. They have to involve counties and cities and all kinds of people. I want to make that real clear that distinction between the content of the courses, the content of the degrees and the broader one over the right to appropriations of -- where the site will be.

Don Isaacson
There is no data as to impact to private institutions. I would say it's arrogant that it was developed all the way through the summer and fall and the privates aren't mentioned in here. 55,000 full-time students, 160,000 co-secondary students add accredited institutions in the state. There is no mention of the private schools. Yet the language here, once a need is determined one or more of the universities through the board of regents may submit a proposal to address the new or expanded baccalaureate program. If one of more of the universities is unable to respond for the need, a community college may of the degree provided the following criteria are met. What if Grand Canyon is offering a program a mile away?

Don Isaacson
What if Ottowa is offering a program?

Don Isaacson
This has no consideration of the privates. They could have done it in may, they could have done it all the way through December and they didn't. This throws the private schools under the bus.

Joining me now to talk about the proposals is the chair of the house committee and sponsor of the house bill 2050, Representative Laura Knaperck. And to talk about the JCC recommendations is regents Ernest Calderon.

Laura Knaperck:
Good to see you Michael.

Michael Grant:
Good too see both of you. At first I want to figure out what problems are we trying to fix?

Laura Knaperck:
Good question. There's two huge problems that we're facing. Number one, affordability. So if we're talking about higher education in the terms of baccalaureate degrees then we're talking about affordability. Then the other issue is accessibility. And as regent Ernest Calderon knows we do not have the capacity to meet the needs of the students going through the systems and the new ones coming in. They've tried to deal with that in the redesign last year. But you've heard people probably concerned about the redesign because they didn't take into consideration what the community colleges could offer. And now today you hear the private sector saying, you left us out.

Michael Grant:
Ernie, do you agree?

Michael Grant:
Are those the problems that we are trying to fix regardless of whether it's JCC or the house bill?

Ernest Calderon:
I totally agree. I think we're all trying to solve the same problem. It's just the pathway or the route to resolve the issue that comes up. Candidly the state is playing catch up. We're playing catch up because we have a growing population and we have a lot of first generation students that need that greater access to a four-year baccalaureate degree. The beauty of what the JCC came up with after nine months of negotiation is that now for the first time the Arizona board of regents is saying, yes, under certain circumstances community colleges should be afforded the opportunity to offer four-year degrees.

Michael Grant:
I think a lot of the public perceives it this way. How much is just simply a turf war?

Michael Grant:
Universities not wanting to lose a chunk of turf, and for that matter community colleges wanting to whack off a larger share of turf of.

Laura Knaperck:
C'mon Ernie, be honest.

Ernie Calderon:
It very well could have been a turf war, but as co-chair of the JCC and in my role now trying to move us forward, that really doesn't matter. Because I think last year, last legislative session -- and I thank representative Knaperek for what she did. She helped focus everybody on the fact that we have a problem. We can fight about turf all day. But until we decide to lock arms and do something together it wouldn't get accomplished but for representative Knaperek last session we wouldn't be where we are now.

Michael Grant:
Let's assume the community colleges is trying to enlarge their turf. I think a lot of people say, hold it. We have a community college system that delivers a very good product, a very focused product. And if the community college system gets unfocused or bigger focused or whatever. You're going to lose that or some portion of that.

Laura Knaperck:
And we've heard that all last session. I heard it through the summer, through the fall, traveling around the state. They're afraid that the community colleges will lose their mission, that they do very well for the most part. I think that really what the problem is that we keep for getting there are students out there. So instead of worrying about what the universities may think or may want, what the community colleges may think or want, we're for getting that there's a student that needs to have services. So how best to deliver those services?

Laura Knaperck:
Does it mean we create state colleges, not just some baccalaureate degrees at some community colleges in some parts of the state?

Laura Knaperck:
Or they've come up with some wonderful partnerships in their process. Really and truly the JCC which is the universities and community colleges should be congratulated. They have come together in a timely manner, considering. It took they are 9 months. [laughter]

Laura Knaperck:
For their systems that's pretty quick. They've come up with the university centers and all kinds of partnerships.

Michael Grant:
One of the proposals is to allow community colleges to offer 300 level classes or four-year baccalaureate degrees or both. Would the 300 level courses, is that for a community college that wants to take it a step further but perhaps not to a complete four-year college baccalaureate degree?

Michael Grant:
Is that the thrust of that?

Laura Knaperck:
Keep in mind that currently the statute limits community colleges from offering anything more than two years of education.

Michael Grant:
Right.

Laura Knaperck:
So in order to allow them even to adjust for what's needed in the marketplace -- and in some instances three years of instruction at the community college level is needed, not necessarily just 100, 200 and 300 level classes.

Michael Grant:
Maybe a three year nursing program.

Laura Knaperck:
If there is such a thing. But we were thinking in terms of perhaps allied health issues or teaching or what have you. But they would have to have a partnership with either a public or private university that would offer the 400 level so those credits would transfer.

Michael Grant:
Is that one of the keys to the JCC recommendation to enlarge?

Michael Grant:
I think of it most associated with northern Arizona university but I'm sure the other two do it as well. They have really over the past several years reached out to community colleges to really expand the NAU campus statewide.

Ernest Calderon:
You hit the nail on the head. Northern Arizona university has gone on the record and said that at any community college where there is a co-horde of students that want to enter a program that they offer they will go to that location and of the course and of the program. Which is quite an offer. But I think your first point was the sale cent point. I do believe that the universities have gotten to the point where we realize the quality of education at the community colleges is exceptional. When you compare it to states like Florida we're head and shoulders above them. And now this JCC plan will allow -- it's created a pathway to allow the measurement of those needs in those areas. Community colleges should not offer 300 level courses or four-year degrees if there's not an economic need for it, if there's not an academic need for it. Once an economic need and an academic need have been made, the cases have been made, and they are ready to move forward, then the universities in this process have the right of first refusal. They are given the chance to offer the course. If they don't offer the chance in some timely fashion, then the community colleges will step in and offer those degrees. Which I think is a very reasonable perspective to take.

Michael Grant:
What's wrong with the right of first refusal?

Michael Grant:
That sounds sort of sports arbitration like.

Laura Knaperck:
Notice that the universities get the first right of first refusal. So just for instance there are certain parts of the state that I'm not sure the university could deliver any kind of services. I've been across the state and there's some issues. It has to do with the demographics and 25 co-horse issue and so fort.

Michael Grant:
NAU does much of theirs through teleconferencing, --

Laura Knaperck:
I think it's called.

Ernest Calderon:
Distance learning.

Laura Knaperck:
That's right. But some students don't do well in that setting. They need a live instructor. To have the universities have the first right of refusal isn't the best for the student. I would like the private institutions to bring forward a proposal maybe even partnering with the community college or university. I would like to see the community colleges bring forward a proposal and let's look at them all and see what works best.

Michael Grant:
Why does eastern Arizona college in Fencher get recognized as moving to a four-year program with a local option?

Laura Knaperck:
First of all, they've had a plan in place for awhile. They've actually crunched the numbers and done all the work in the study that Ernie talks about and they've had that for a few years. Number one. Number two, they don't really fit in any mold. The campus is built out, paid for, cash, there's dormitories there. They're ready to go. They have students that come and stay on their campus for the 100 and 200 level classes and then they have to leave because there's no other choice for them. We usually lose those students and we don't want to lose those students in the area.

Michael Grant:
Almost out of time, where do you see or hope this thing goes in the next few minutes?

Ernest Calderon:
Well, first of all I appreciate everything that representative Laura Knaperek are doing to take away some of those statutory barriers to allow community colleges to offer degrees. The main focus from here on in is to protect everybody. You want to protect the taxpayer to make sure there's a justifiable economic need. Even though I love niece colleges, I've not been persuaded about the economic justification there yet. But more importantly protect the student to make sure that academically there's a need in those areas. That's where we're going now.

Michael Grant:
Ernest Calderon thank you for being here. Representative Laura Knaperek good to see you here.

Michael Grant:
Last spring, University of Arizona launched the Genographic project along with National Geographic and IBM it's going to provide an unprecedented picture of the human family tree through DNA testing. Producer Pam White says the project is already in full swing.

Scientist 1:
The thing that immediately hit me about it was that it attempted to answer one of the two great questions that humanities have always had. They've had why are we here and where did we come from.

Scientist 2:
You may have your mother's smile, or your father's hair. But why do you look the way you do?

Scientist 2:
How do we explain the incredible diversity of people from around the globe?

Scientist 2:
And how did your ancestors find their way to the place where you live today?

Pam White:
It's a landmark study of the human journey. Last spring national geographic, IBM and the U of A launched the Genographic project, a project to trace the migration of human beings. Genetic analysis can already trace ourselves back to a common ancestor in Africa 60,000 years ago.

Stu Singer:
Look how high up there they went.

Pam White:
The public has been asked to participate and Stu and Judy Singer did just that. First you have to access the website. And for 99.95 you can buy a test kit and collect your own DNA sample.

Scientist 3:
Then you've got enough cells on this brush to then put it into your testing tube, and with a little plunger here, the head of the brush pops off, the stick you can throw away. And then you put this one and then a few hours later you do the next one. And you're able to mail that back in the self-addressed informal and there you go. Then it comes to us in the laboratory and we do all your genetic testing.

Pam White:
This is the U of A's project manager. He and team members at the university of Arizona laboratories are extracting thousands of DNA samples coming in from around the world. When they arrive they're transferred into these well blocks for DNA isolation.

Scientist 4:
From our point of view in the lab we're certainly seeing a lot more genetic diversity in the public participation kits than we thought we'd see. That's been a pleasant surprise.

Pam White:
Since the project began, Kaplan says there's been a great response and more than 30,000 DNA samples have been processed here.

Scientist 4:
This is science for you about you.

Pam White:
The U of A was asked to join the project because of their one of a kind program to trace family lineage called family tree DNA. Its creator, Dr. Michael Hammer of the U of A's genomic analysis and core testing lab.

Scientist 4:
Dr. Hammer has been a major force in the y chrome so many and human evolutionary fields since the early 90s. And so with Dr. Hammer's reputation and family tree's success at actually providing personalized services to the general public, it just seemed like a match made in heaven.

Judy Singer:
First I have to log in. So I put in my code.

Pam White:
Test results are anonymous. But each kit has a number inside which the participant uses to log on to the site to track their DNA sample.

Judy Singer:
Then it comes up with a description of my DNA. And the actual markers that make me different or the same than other people. Then you can go to your route map and it shows that my ancestors started out in Africa, like everyone else, and migrated north through the middle east, up into Asia, all the way across Europe into northwestern Europe and then they came back down to northern Italy.

Pam White:
Male linage is traced through the y chrome so many. And the female line through what's called mitochondrial DNA.

Scientist 4:
We can tell you by looking at the mutations which path you took.

Stu Singer:
I'm just going to show you my path, which is quite different than Judy's in terms of migration out of Africa. And my path of my ancestors again started out in Africa. But there's a lot of data points in the Middle East and obviously spent a lot of time there. Then when it got up to Europe it made a left-hand turn and ended up in southern Europe, in apparently 120,000 years ago or so or -- sorry, 20,000 years ago we were living in caves in Greece.

Pam White:
Stu and Judy are participating in the public part of the project. But another aspect of the research is to collect DNA from indigenous people to determine where groups of people come from, why they migrated, where they ended up and what happened to them genetically along the way.

Scientist 4:
In one more generation people won't be from anywhere. They'll be from cosmopolitan cities. This is our last chance to actually go out to people who are living where they've been living for thousands of years. This is our last chance to get that signal of our deep and ancestry. Where did our ancestors disperse around the world?

Scientist 4:
And that's why this is important to do right now.

Pam White:
Samples from 10,000 native people from 10 regional sites around the world will be tested.

Scientist 4:
IBM and National Geographic have both agreed that they won't be patenting any of the findings out of this research and that all of the data will reside in a publicly accessible data base.

Pam White:
When the 5-year, $40 million project is completed, it will be the largest data base in the world of DNA.

Scientist 4:
And our goal is to keep this information, what the public are seeing, as current and up to the minute with the science as it changes over the next 5 years.

Judy Singer:
Your ancestors really didn't go very far.

Pam White:
And while it will answer some of the most important questions of man kind, it's also scientific proof of our connection with one another.

Stu Singer:
I think it really focuses you on the fact that everyone is related. I mean, of course we knew it. But it's -- this is sort of the proof. This is the final proof of the thing.

Judy Singer:
Well, we've always had so many problems in fighting and territorial problems. It just helps to know that everyone is a cousin.

Announcer:
The valley continues to grow inward, outward and upward and Arizona growing pains we take a look at the growth phenomenon from different angles. The number of bedroom communities rising the infill development and the proliferation of high-rises. A special edition Wednesday night at 7 on channel 8's Horizon.

Michael Grant:
Thursday, how Phoenix saw a bigger job increase than any large metropolitan area in the country recently, and on Friday, the Journalists Round Table. Thanks for joining us this evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a good night. [music]

Announcer:
If you have comments about Horizon, please contact us at the addresses listed on the bottom of your screen. Your name and comments may be used on a future edition of Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by The Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station.

The Genographic Project


  • National Geographic and the University of Arizona are teaming up to give an unprecedented picture of the human family tree through DNA testing. HORIZON profiles the project and shows you how you can get involved in the project.
Guests:
  • Laura Knaperck - Representative
  • Ernest Calderon - Board of Regents


View Transcript
Michael Grant:
Tonight, on Horizon. In the state legislature in an effort to allow community colleges to offer four year degrees. And we'll tell you about a joint U of A National Geographic program designed to provide a picture of the human family through DNA testing.

Announcer: Horizon is made possible by The Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

Michael Grant:
Good evening. Thanks for joining me tonight on Horizon. I'm Michael Grant. Today the House committee of universities, community colleges, and technology, heard comments about a proposed strike everything amendment to house bill 2050 that would among other things, would allow community colleges to offer and confer limited four year baccalaureate degrees. Only last week Arizona board of regents approving recommendations from a joint conference committee of the community colleges and university, which would among other things, would develop a pathway for four year degrees at community colleges. But private schools aren't necessarily on board. Here are a few highlights of the committee meeting this afternoon.

Laura Knaperck:
Let me just start with last year's bill. So I think it would be helpful for those of you that remember last year's bill, house bill 2079, what we tried to do were several different things. In fact, the provisions from 2079 are in here. Some are barely recognizable. But the basic theme of the student centered higher education system is in this bill. So there is a financial aid piece, there is also an additional building renewal for FTE, for the universities in this bill. There's also the elimination of equalization in this bill and the allowance of EAC to become a state college as was in the bill last year. The difference has to do with how we're going to go about allowing and if we allow community colleges to offer baccalaureate degrees. I should strike the striker. It's really a strike everything amendment to the bill. In the striker what we do is we say, okay. Community colleges may offer certain types of baccalaureate degrees and has to do with allied health only. They can also be allowed to offer 300 level classes if they have an agreement and only if they have an agreement with an Arizona public university or private university to offer the 400-degree so that those credits would transfer. Then the other thing we do is we set into statute a state board. And the state board resembles the state charter school board. It has 11 members. They would be reviewing and approving or rejecting applications for either baccalaureate degrees at community colleges or new state colleges, four year teaching institutions in the state of Arizona.

Michael Hunter:
The summary of the joints that the JCC recommendations make are found on page 7 of 13. Points 1 through 6 are the recommendations to increase transfer credits for select programs, to increase the number and scope of community college university partnerships, to establish joint funding models, to expand the Arizona university system campuses and statewide programs and to develop a pathway for baccalaureate degrees at community colleges. Yes, the Arizona board of regents voted for a recommendation that includes language that you see there. Develop a pathway for baccalaureate degrees at community colleges. And then explore the need and create a pathway for a four year regional degree granting sledge. So a lot of what I think representative Laura Knaperek is trying to achieve is incorporated into this. One of the things that I think through this process, as you all know, different agencies, different associations, JOBC and OSPB, they often come to you with data answering the same questions in very different ways. And it doesn't always benefit the process to be pointing at each other's data with distrust. What happens here with JCC is that you will have a process where the universities and the community colleges agree on a methodology, they agree on a study. They then conduct the study. And you don't have that finger pointing back and forth about the credibility of the data and the conclusions.

Ted Downing:
As we go through in discussion of redesign, the parties that are at the table, all of them have conflicting points of view because they all see the -- you run the university of Arizona or ASU or whatever you do and that's your bag. What's missing here -- and the chairwoman can be congratulated for this. She realized there was a need for big picture from 40,000 feet. And I jealously, jealously guard the right of academic freedom that the governing boards of the institutions maintain that right to make decisions on things like what degrees they get. And I'll hold to that position. But on the other hand I equally jealously hold to the right of the legislature to make and control that decision as to where these institutions will be, how they'll be financed. It's what of a balancing act here. I think as we move through this I want to make sure that JCC does not have the impression that it's making the decision as to where this community college will be, how it will be financed. Those decisions I think have to take place at the grass roots level and even beyond the legislature. They have to involve counties and cities and all kinds of people. I want to make that real clear that distinction between the content of the courses, the content of the degrees and the broader one over the right to appropriations of -- where the site will be.

Don Isaacson
There is no data as to impact to private institutions. I would say it's arrogant that it was developed all the way through the summer and fall and the privates aren't mentioned in here. 55,000 full-time students, 160,000 co-secondary students add accredited institutions in the state. There is no mention of the private schools. Yet the language here, once a need is determined one or more of the universities through the board of regents may submit a proposal to address the new or expanded baccalaureate program. If one of more of the universities is unable to respond for the need, a community college may of the degree provided the following criteria are met. What if Grand Canyon is offering a program a mile away?

Don Isaacson
What if Ottowa is offering a program?

Don Isaacson
This has no consideration of the privates. They could have done it in may, they could have done it all the way through December and they didn't. This throws the private schools under the bus.

Joining me now to talk about the proposals is the chair of the house committee and sponsor of the house bill 2050, Representative Laura Knaperck. And to talk about the JCC recommendations is regents Ernest Calderon.

Laura Knaperck:
Good to see you Michael.

Michael Grant:
Good too see both of you. At first I want to figure out what problems are we trying to fix?

Laura Knaperck:
Good question. There's two huge problems that we're facing. Number one, affordability. So if we're talking about higher education in the terms of baccalaureate degrees then we're talking about affordability. Then the other issue is accessibility. And as regent Ernest Calderon knows we do not have the capacity to meet the needs of the students going through the systems and the new ones coming in. They've tried to deal with that in the redesign last year. But you've heard people probably concerned about the redesign because they didn't take into consideration what the community colleges could offer. And now today you hear the private sector saying, you left us out.

Michael Grant:
Ernie, do you agree?

Michael Grant:
Are those the problems that we are trying to fix regardless of whether it's JCC or the house bill?

Ernest Calderon:
I totally agree. I think we're all trying to solve the same problem. It's just the pathway or the route to resolve the issue that comes up. Candidly the state is playing catch up. We're playing catch up because we have a growing population and we have a lot of first generation students that need that greater access to a four-year baccalaureate degree. The beauty of what the JCC came up with after nine months of negotiation is that now for the first time the Arizona board of regents is saying, yes, under certain circumstances community colleges should be afforded the opportunity to offer four-year degrees.

Michael Grant:
I think a lot of the public perceives it this way. How much is just simply a turf war?

Michael Grant:
Universities not wanting to lose a chunk of turf, and for that matter community colleges wanting to whack off a larger share of turf of.

Laura Knaperck:
C'mon Ernie, be honest.

Ernie Calderon:
It very well could have been a turf war, but as co-chair of the JCC and in my role now trying to move us forward, that really doesn't matter. Because I think last year, last legislative session -- and I thank representative Knaperek for what she did. She helped focus everybody on the fact that we have a problem. We can fight about turf all day. But until we decide to lock arms and do something together it wouldn't get accomplished but for representative Knaperek last session we wouldn't be where we are now.

Michael Grant:
Let's assume the community colleges is trying to enlarge their turf. I think a lot of people say, hold it. We have a community college system that delivers a very good product, a very focused product. And if the community college system gets unfocused or bigger focused or whatever. You're going to lose that or some portion of that.

Laura Knaperck:
And we've heard that all last session. I heard it through the summer, through the fall, traveling around the state. They're afraid that the community colleges will lose their mission, that they do very well for the most part. I think that really what the problem is that we keep for getting there are students out there. So instead of worrying about what the universities may think or may want, what the community colleges may think or want, we're for getting that there's a student that needs to have services. So how best to deliver those services?

Laura Knaperck:
Does it mean we create state colleges, not just some baccalaureate degrees at some community colleges in some parts of the state?

Laura Knaperck:
Or they've come up with some wonderful partnerships in their process. Really and truly the JCC which is the universities and community colleges should be congratulated. They have come together in a timely manner, considering. It took they are 9 months. [laughter]

Laura Knaperck:
For their systems that's pretty quick. They've come up with the university centers and all kinds of partnerships.

Michael Grant:
One of the proposals is to allow community colleges to offer 300 level classes or four-year baccalaureate degrees or both. Would the 300 level courses, is that for a community college that wants to take it a step further but perhaps not to a complete four-year college baccalaureate degree?

Michael Grant:
Is that the thrust of that?

Laura Knaperck:
Keep in mind that currently the statute limits community colleges from offering anything more than two years of education.

Michael Grant:
Right.

Laura Knaperck:
So in order to allow them even to adjust for what's needed in the marketplace -- and in some instances three years of instruction at the community college level is needed, not necessarily just 100, 200 and 300 level classes.

Michael Grant:
Maybe a three year nursing program.

Laura Knaperck:
If there is such a thing. But we were thinking in terms of perhaps allied health issues or teaching or what have you. But they would have to have a partnership with either a public or private university that would offer the 400 level so those credits would transfer.

Michael Grant:
Is that one of the keys to the JCC recommendation to enlarge?

Michael Grant:
I think of it most associated with northern Arizona university but I'm sure the other two do it as well. They have really over the past several years reached out to community colleges to really expand the NAU campus statewide.

Ernest Calderon:
You hit the nail on the head. Northern Arizona university has gone on the record and said that at any community college where there is a co-horde of students that want to enter a program that they offer they will go to that location and of the course and of the program. Which is quite an offer. But I think your first point was the sale cent point. I do believe that the universities have gotten to the point where we realize the quality of education at the community colleges is exceptional. When you compare it to states like Florida we're head and shoulders above them. And now this JCC plan will allow -- it's created a pathway to allow the measurement of those needs in those areas. Community colleges should not offer 300 level courses or four-year degrees if there's not an economic need for it, if there's not an academic need for it. Once an economic need and an academic need have been made, the cases have been made, and they are ready to move forward, then the universities in this process have the right of first refusal. They are given the chance to offer the course. If they don't offer the chance in some timely fashion, then the community colleges will step in and offer those degrees. Which I think is a very reasonable perspective to take.

Michael Grant:
What's wrong with the right of first refusal?

Michael Grant:
That sounds sort of sports arbitration like.

Laura Knaperck:
Notice that the universities get the first right of first refusal. So just for instance there are certain parts of the state that I'm not sure the university could deliver any kind of services. I've been across the state and there's some issues. It has to do with the demographics and 25 co-horse issue and so fort.

Michael Grant:
NAU does much of theirs through teleconferencing, --

Laura Knaperck:
I think it's called.

Ernest Calderon:
Distance learning.

Laura Knaperck:
That's right. But some students don't do well in that setting. They need a live instructor. To have the universities have the first right of refusal isn't the best for the student. I would like the private institutions to bring forward a proposal maybe even partnering with the community college or university. I would like to see the community colleges bring forward a proposal and let's look at them all and see what works best.

Michael Grant:
Why does eastern Arizona college in Fencher get recognized as moving to a four-year program with a local option?

Laura Knaperck:
First of all, they've had a plan in place for awhile. They've actually crunched the numbers and done all the work in the study that Ernie talks about and they've had that for a few years. Number one. Number two, they don't really fit in any mold. The campus is built out, paid for, cash, there's dormitories there. They're ready to go. They have students that come and stay on their campus for the 100 and 200 level classes and then they have to leave because there's no other choice for them. We usually lose those students and we don't want to lose those students in the area.

Michael Grant:
Almost out of time, where do you see or hope this thing goes in the next few minutes?

Ernest Calderon:
Well, first of all I appreciate everything that representative Laura Knaperek are doing to take away some of those statutory barriers to allow community colleges to offer degrees. The main focus from here on in is to protect everybody. You want to protect the taxpayer to make sure there's a justifiable economic need. Even though I love niece colleges, I've not been persuaded about the economic justification there yet. But more importantly protect the student to make sure that academically there's a need in those areas. That's where we're going now.

Michael Grant:
Ernest Calderon thank you for being here. Representative Laura Knaperek good to see you here.

Michael Grant:
Last spring, University of Arizona launched the Genographic project along with National Geographic and IBM it's going to provide an unprecedented picture of the human family tree through DNA testing. Producer Pam White says the project is already in full swing.

Scientist 1:
The thing that immediately hit me about it was that it attempted to answer one of the two great questions that humanities have always had. They've had why are we here and where did we come from.

Scientist 2:
You may have your mother's smile, or your father's hair. But why do you look the way you do?

Scientist 2:
How do we explain the incredible diversity of people from around the globe?

Scientist 2:
And how did your ancestors find their way to the place where you live today?

Pam White:
It's a landmark study of the human journey. Last spring national geographic, IBM and the U of A launched the Genographic project, a project to trace the migration of human beings. Genetic analysis can already trace ourselves back to a common ancestor in Africa 60,000 years ago.

Stu Singer:
Look how high up there they went.

Pam White:
The public has been asked to participate and Stu and Judy Singer did just that. First you have to access the website. And for 99.95 you can buy a test kit and collect your own DNA sample.

Scientist 3:
Then you've got enough cells on this brush to then put it into your testing tube, and with a little plunger here, the head of the brush pops off, the stick you can throw away. And then you put this one and then a few hours later you do the next one. And you're able to mail that back in the self-addressed informal and there you go. Then it comes to us in the laboratory and we do all your genetic testing.

Pam White:
This is the U of A's project manager. He and team members at the university of Arizona laboratories are extracting thousands of DNA samples coming in from around the world. When they arrive they're transferred into these well blocks for DNA isolation.

Scientist 4:
From our point of view in the lab we're certainly seeing a lot more genetic diversity in the public participation kits than we thought we'd see. That's been a pleasant surprise.

Pam White:
Since the project began, Kaplan says there's been a great response and more than 30,000 DNA samples have been processed here.

Scientist 4:
This is science for you about you.

Pam White:
The U of A was asked to join the project because of their one of a kind program to trace family lineage called family tree DNA. Its creator, Dr. Michael Hammer of the U of A's genomic analysis and core testing lab.

Scientist 4:
Dr. Hammer has been a major force in the y chrome so many and human evolutionary fields since the early 90s. And so with Dr. Hammer's reputation and family tree's success at actually providing personalized services to the general public, it just seemed like a match made in heaven.

Judy Singer:
First I have to log in. So I put in my code.

Pam White:
Test results are anonymous. But each kit has a number inside which the participant uses to log on to the site to track their DNA sample.

Judy Singer:
Then it comes up with a description of my DNA. And the actual markers that make me different or the same than other people. Then you can go to your route map and it shows that my ancestors started out in Africa, like everyone else, and migrated north through the middle east, up into Asia, all the way across Europe into northwestern Europe and then they came back down to northern Italy.

Pam White:
Male linage is traced through the y chrome so many. And the female line through what's called mitochondrial DNA.

Scientist 4:
We can tell you by looking at the mutations which path you took.

Stu Singer:
I'm just going to show you my path, which is quite different than Judy's in terms of migration out of Africa. And my path of my ancestors again started out in Africa. But there's a lot of data points in the Middle East and obviously spent a lot of time there. Then when it got up to Europe it made a left-hand turn and ended up in southern Europe, in apparently 120,000 years ago or so or -- sorry, 20,000 years ago we were living in caves in Greece.

Pam White:
Stu and Judy are participating in the public part of the project. But another aspect of the research is to collect DNA from indigenous people to determine where groups of people come from, why they migrated, where they ended up and what happened to them genetically along the way.

Scientist 4:
In one more generation people won't be from anywhere. They'll be from cosmopolitan cities. This is our last chance to actually go out to people who are living where they've been living for thousands of years. This is our last chance to get that signal of our deep and ancestry. Where did our ancestors disperse around the world?

Scientist 4:
And that's why this is important to do right now.

Pam White:
Samples from 10,000 native people from 10 regional sites around the world will be tested.

Scientist 4:
IBM and National Geographic have both agreed that they won't be patenting any of the findings out of this research and that all of the data will reside in a publicly accessible data base.

Pam White:
When the 5-year, $40 million project is completed, it will be the largest data base in the world of DNA.

Scientist 4:
And our goal is to keep this information, what the public are seeing, as current and up to the minute with the science as it changes over the next 5 years.

Judy Singer:
Your ancestors really didn't go very far.

Pam White:
And while it will answer some of the most important questions of man kind, it's also scientific proof of our connection with one another.

Stu Singer:
I think it really focuses you on the fact that everyone is related. I mean, of course we knew it. But it's -- this is sort of the proof. This is the final proof of the thing.

Judy Singer:
Well, we've always had so many problems in fighting and territorial problems. It just helps to know that everyone is a cousin.

Announcer:
The valley continues to grow inward, outward and upward and Arizona growing pains we take a look at the growth phenomenon from different angles. The number of bedroom communities rising the infill development and the proliferation of high-rises. A special edition Wednesday night at 7 on channel 8's Horizon.

Michael Grant:
Thursday, how Phoenix saw a bigger job increase than any large metropolitan area in the country recently, and on Friday, the Journalists Round Table. Thanks for joining us this evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a good night. [music]

Announcer:
If you have comments about Horizon, please contact us at the addresses listed on the bottom of your screen. Your name and comments may be used on a future edition of Horizon.

Announcer:
Horizon is made possible by The Friends of Channel 8, members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station.

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