Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

September 1, 2010


Host: Ted Simons

Clean Elections Debate: Candidates for Governor

  |   Video
  • A special hour-long debate with the candidates for Arizona Governor. Invited to attend: Governor Jan Brewer (Republican), Terry Goddard (Democrat), Barry Hess (Libertarian) and Larry Gist (Green).
Guests:
  • Jan Brewer
  • Terry Goddard
  • Barry Hess
  • Larry Gist
Category: Vote 2010

View Transcript

Ted Simons: Good evening and welcome to this special edition of "Horizon." I'm Ted Simons. This evening's show is an hour-long debate sponsored by the citizens' Clean Elections Commission. Tonight we'll hear from the candidates for Governor of Arizona. They are the Republican incumbent Governor Jan Brewer, Democratic candidate Terry Goddard, who currently serves as the states attorney general. Libertarian candidate Barry Hess a currency trader and small business owner. And green party candidate, Larry Gist, a commercial realtor. Each candidate has one minute for opening and closing statements, earlier we drew numbers to determine the order and Barry Hess goes first.

Barry Hess: Well thank you, Ted. I want to say good evening to all of our viewers and also to thank the Clean Elections Commission for this forum. Although I did not take advantage of the clean elections scheme, I chose to rather to fund myself traditionally, I'm happy to be here in this company and I'm here to represent the rights of the individual we've seen a liberal democrat formally sitting in the governor's office and after two years' tenure, nothing has changed. We've turned the focus of the governor's office on S.B. 1070 and it's not the issue when we're facing a depression and people are out of work and when need manufacturing and our education is suffering and we've got so many other things to contend with, we can't allow S.B. 1070 to be in any way, the focus of this campaign. So I hope that you'll join me and us at our website, at HESSforgovernor.com and we’ll learn more about it.

Ted Simons: Thanks Barry, The next person to give a one minute opening statement is Terry Goddard.
Terry Goddard: Thank you Ted and thank you all for participating in tonight’s discussion. Sadly, Arizona, our home, the state we love is in serious trouble. We're in a downward spiral with our economy and after decades of leading the nation, we're number one in job loss. Just since Jan Brewer became governor, we lost 128,000 jobs and we’re also leading the nation in home foreclosures and in the rapid rise of bankruptcies. It's getting worse every day and that is -- and our budget is seriously out of balance. This is an emergency, this is an all-hands on deck evolution and as the next governor, I intend to spend every waking moment fighting to bring jobs back to Arizona. I have an emergency action plan that will bring 300,000 new jobs back to our state. That's what we need. When Jan Brewer took over as governor, she should have done that. What she’s done is appointed a committee and my name is Terry Goddard and I ask for your vote and support. Thank you very much.

Ted Simons: Now it's Larry Gist's turn to give a brief opening statement.

Larry Gist: Good evening, my name is Larry Gist. I'd like to be your next governor. I was born and raised in Yuma, Arizona, and I graduated from ASU with a political science degree, my first job was down at the state legislature and assigned to the appropriations committee and as most of you know, that's where the money comes through and goes through. I had a chance to putting my theory into practical ways. I'm not a career politician but I'm not a novice about how the process works. I decided not to go into government and spent the last 35 years working in the private sector and I've been in the technology industry, the manufacturing industry and the financial services industry. I think I bring a wealth of experience to the governor's position to sit down and work with private sector regarding how to go forward in a very positive way and creating jobs and I'm ready and prepared to be your governor.

Ted Simons: All right thank you very much. And finally, we hear from Jan Brewer.

Jan Brewer: Thank you, Ted. It's great to be here with Larry, Barry and Terry. And thank you all for watching us tonight. I've done so much and I cannot believe we've changed everything since I've become your governor in the last 600 days. Arizona has been brought back from its abyss. We've cut the budget, we've balanced the budget, and we are moving forward. We have done everything that we could possibly do. --(Pause)--We have...did what was right for Arizona. I will tell you that I have really did the best that anyone could do and we've pushed back hard against the federal government and filed suit against Obama healthcare and we have passed S.B. 1070 and will continue do what is right for Arizona. I ask for your vote. Thank you.

Ted Simons: All right. Very good. Thank you all. Let's get to the conversation here and governor, I want to start with you and an issue that has defined Arizona in many ways. Some say for better, some for worse. And that's S.B. 1070. Is S.B. 1070 good for Arizona, has it been good since you signed this bill into law?

Jan Brewer: Absolutely, there's no doubt about it. You know, the people of Arizona are frustrated. We needed to do something and I signed the toughest illegal immigration bill in the country and I think that it not only has united Arizona but united America. And I will not back down. We will continue to move forward. The bottom line, we need our borders secured and we can't afford all of the illegal immigration. What it's costing us in health and incarceration is above our means. We can’t even sustain what we are doing now, it's most important.

Ted Simons: 1070, good for Arizona?

Terry Goddard: However you feel about senate bill 1070 it's hurt us, our economy seriously and we see the stories every day. But what I am concerned about is border security and as Governor Brewer herself has said on a number of occasions, S.B. 1070 does not nothing to secure the border and it does nothing to fight border crime and as your attorney general that’s what I have been doing for the last seven years, I've been focused on the cartels and putting out of business and eliminating their operations and smuggling human beings into the United States and we've had significant success intercepting the money that goes to the cartels and I've called upon the federal government to pick up that mantle and take the offensive, we have been playing defense way to long on the border and it's time to go on the offensive and go after the cartel bosses and cut them off. The only way they come across the border illegally is with organized help and we need to follow the lead and cut the cartel apart so they won't be bringing people illegally.

Jan Brewer: And of course we all know we wouldn't have all of these problems if we had our borders secured. That's why people are secured. That’s why people are so frustrated.

Jan Brewer: It certainly has helped. Obviously, it's gotten the attention of the federal government. The statement as you've said and the secretary of homeland security and the president of United States making the statements, our borders are as secure as they've ever been. Well, they're not. Why are they sending more National Guard and border patrol. Which isn't enough. The people of Arizona want to feel safe in their homes and they want to feel safe in their state. And you know, it's a simple fact, a country without borders is like a house without walls. It collapses. We want our borders secured.

Terry Goddard: I want to stop illegal immigration as much as the next person and I believe the way do it is to focus on the illegal cartels, the people who are bringing people illegally into the United States and the problem is 1070 doesn't do that and I believe we need to focus our Arizona efforts honest where the problem is and take the offensive. Cut off the money going to the cartels and that's what I've been working on for the last seven years and take criminal prosecution into Mexico to go after the cartel leaders so they won’t have the facilitation of the organized criminal back up that brings people illegally into this country. And that's how we'll stop illegal immigration.

Jan Brewer: And I say secure the borders and you won't have those problems.

Ted Simons: In your opening statement you said you didn't want the campaign defined by 1070.

Barry Hess: Absolutely not. We can secure our border, I've been to groom lake and if we secured it the same way they did, this is old technology, we can stop the illegal crossings except at the ports of entry. That’s why it’s on my website, it's a defined plan. I seem to be the only one that has one. While giving a disincentive. That's really going to be the key. Stop putting a tub of honey in our front yard and telling the bears across the street they can't have any, well we know what happened. People are going to try and feed their families and come to where the opportunity is and we've quashed it with the 1070 thing because it's become a very racist attitude of the people who are saying I support it so I'm against illegal immigration, but Terry was absolutely right. It has nothing to do with immigration.

Ted Simons: Larry, your ideas, 1070?

Larry Gist: I think it's a frustration bill. People are frustrated with the real issue of the border and what's going on and it has hurt us, in the perception, nationally and it's hurt our tourism so to say it hasn't hurt us is not true. The real issue is what are we going do about the bigger picture. The border and security and even a further step back is what is the cause of why so many people want to come in from Mexico or south of the border through here.

Jan Brewer: Actually, it's not -- that is not really the issue. The issue basically, because we talk about tourism and we talk about driving the economy down, it's because people, like Mr. Goddard supported the unions that are calling out and screaming out for the boycotts, you know, driving -- they want to drive our economy down and want to take jobs away from people that desperately need them. That's where the problem is.

Terry Goddard: You know the governor was all over the paper today trying to imply I'm in favor of the boycott and I want to make it very clear. I'm absolutely not. I think the boycott should be stopped immediately and I've called on national groups and local politicians to back off and not hurt Arizona anymore. But what's hurting us economically are false statements made by Jan Brewer that Arizona has become so violent that we are a place of fear and we have beheadings in the desert. Those are false statements and cause people to think that Arizona is a dangerous place and they don't come here and invest here because our governor has said such negative things about our state. And Jan, I call upon you to say there are no beheadings, that was a false statement and needs to be cleared up right now.

Jan Brewer: You know, Terry, I will call you out. I think you ought to renounce your support and endorsement of the unions that are boycotting our state and trying to drive our economy into the ground -- taking jobs away --

Terry Goddard: No way, no how. I've done everything I can to fight against it. They endorse me in spite of my views, not because of them.

Jan Brewer: Well no, they endorse you because of their views, because you support what they're doing.

Terry Goddard: That's untrue and we need to clarify that.

Ted Simons: Go ahead, please.

Terry Goddard: I've been opposed to the boycott and it does great harm to Arizona and I urge everyone I've talked to to get off. I wrote letters to congressman and helped to change his mind and I'm proud of that.

Jan Brewer: This is obviously one of the biggest issues that Arizona is facing and America and the union organizers that are boycotting Arizona are supporting you because of what you stand for, Terry.

Jan Brewer: You stand for --

Terry Goddard: Stop making false statements about Arizona being a dangerous place. The fact is we've got the lowest violent crime rate in 30 years and you're demeaning the men and women of law enforcement by saying we're dangerous and people are afraid in their houses. That is simply untrue.
Jan Brewer: Terry, the federal government puts signins up 30-miles south of the capitol saying "danger, travel at your own risk."Don’t tell me that we don’t have a problem out there with the drug cartels.

Terry Goddard: People are not in fear in their houses.

Jan Brewer: That's not true. Have you been down to the border? People are afraid to go out and get their mail.

Terry Goddard: I know every inch of the border.

Jan Brewer: Why did you go? You don't want to secure the border.

Terry Goddard: I'm sorry?

Jan Brewer: Why’d you go you don't want to secure the border.

Terry Goddard: I don't understand that. I don't want to secure the border? Everything I've done has been to fight the cartels and trying to do everything as state officials to stop the organized criminal threat to Arizona and we've made real progress.

Barry Hess: All of this bickering is a distraction from the economy and the depression hitting every home and family in America. Why didn't S.B. 1070 simply require that anybody who wants a provision of goods or services from government to prove their eligibility and leave the rest of us alone. It's about privacy. That would have solved everything that S.B. 1070 would begin to portend.

Barry Hess: Can we get off 1070?

Ted Simons: Not yet. We are going to hang onto it for a little while longer.

Jan Brewer: Senate bill 1070 just mirrors the federal law.
Terry Goddard: Let's talk about fixing the problem. Because right now the folks in congress has been unable to get immigration reform on the docket but that's a fundamental way we can get everybody together and clear the decks and make sure we're all legal in this country. That's our objective. That's what I believe we have to accomplish and, Barry, you're right, the economy is the overwhelming -- it's the elephant in the middle of the room, the thing we're ignoring at our peril.

Ted Simons: I want to get to that point in a second.

Terry Goddard: We're going to lose as a state.

Ted Simons: Larry, your thoughts?

Larry Gist: On 1070?

Ted Simons: Yes
The bill itself, 70% of the bill did mirror federal law. But the last few pages didn't and that's where I had a problem with the bill. We should be -- people should be legal in the country, not illegal. As far as -- may I finish?

Ted Simons: Please.

Larry Gist: Regarding the last part of the bill, it was -- I think section 13, 29, 29 and 28, is regarding a -- where if you were harboring anybody in any building so, if I'm a church with my parishioners and know that somebody is in that church with me, then I could be trouble by the law. The police could show up and take us all out and we have to sort it all out. The problem with the civil rights is regarding the last two parts of the bill.

Ted Simons: I want to get to what you mentioned, which was federal inaction and what many see as the reason behind 1070. Why shouldn't the state try to do what the federal government so far has not done?

Terry Goddard: The state needs to do everything it can within the law and constitution. And that's why we're focused on stopping the cartels and seizing their assets, following their leads and arresting their leads, that's the answer to solving the problem. Along with solving decades, decades of federal inaction in the area of immigration. We're paying a huge price right now, because for almost 30 years, the federal government hasn't paid attention and hadn't enforced the employer sanctions as they should have as they swore they would and has not changed the work visa so they corresponded to the actual jobs available in the United States. That's created the problem we have today and they need to fix it and congress for whatever reason is dead in the water and will not introduce the bill and will not start this process to try and bring some justice to our country.

Ted Simons: But back to the original question, though, if they're dead in the water, won't start the process, why not a state like Arizona start their own process?

Terry Goddard: Well Arizona has in some significant ways. We have the significant employers' sanctions law. The honey part that was referred to a minute ago is a big reason that people cross the border. Let's fix that. There's a special exemption in the law that allows Arizona to go after business licenses. There's a good start. In the meantime, a federal court has taken most of 1070 and considering it, they won’t let it go into effect. We have to focus on what ails Arizona and seems to me as Barry said a minute ago, that's our broken economy. We've lost, just in Governor Brewer’s time, 128,000 jobs in Governor Brewer's time and losing more every month. This is the number one priority for the next governor, we have got to get to work on it.

Ted Simons: Governor, you have said that the action by the judge that blocked major parts of 1070 has caused Arizona, quote, irreparable harm. Has it and how?

Jan Brewer: I do. I really believe that, strongly. I think the majority of Arizonans believe that. We have an legislature that has the right to enact laws and mirrors the federal law and if the feds won't do their job, we'll do their job for them. We'll help them. The bottom line is, is we cannot continue to reap all the damage and when Terry refers to the drug cartels and on and on and on and on, if we simply got our borders secured and 1070 was in effect, all this would stop. It would make your job a lot easier as attorney general.

Barry Hess: This whole 1070 thing, my opposition has always been singular. It is national I.D. I don't want the free citizens of Arizona to be in a national databases. But there's a very realistic answer to solving these problems without getting into businesses and people's lives and their families and uprooting them and to give the disincentive for them to be here illegally is the smartest thing to do and we don’t have to grow government ot ferret everybody out. The bigger issue is always going to be can we secure our border and who will we let in. The feds have been very lax. And I advocate self-help, right now. Let's fix our state. There are people dying on our border, I'm talking about Mr. Krentz for instance, people suffering with no security –because we haven’t done anything and the current governor is saying we are waiting for President Obama to do something, and that's the excuse for all our inaction, I think we have to step on it, disregard the feds and let's ignore them and maybe they'll go away.

Ted Simons: We can’t ignore the economy and jobs and these things. Governor, what will you do to grow jobs in Arizona?

Jan Brewer: Well, we have a wonderful story. First let me begin by saying under my administration, we've brought thousands of jobs into Arizona and millions of dollars in capital. I did as my first act as governor was to put a moratorium on rules and regulation so that businesses that are looking at Arizona, coming to Arizona, would know there would be predictability so they would know what they're dealing with and help the businesses already here and I've established the commerce authority, of putting leading CEOs and presidents of company along with the private sector so they can go out and bring us into a 21st Century approach. I believe that it's important everybody understand I put money into a job training fund and a job closing fund. Then I think we have to very seriously look at the tax structure. We need tax reform to make us more competitive with California and Arizona corporate income tax and corporate property tax to make it more comparable.

Terry Goddard: Well Jan Brewer's been in office for 20 months and the idea of a commerce authority is a good one but it took 18 months for her to announce it and they have the first meeting on the 24th of September. That's not the way you respond to an emergency. You respond with all hands on deck. You go and make our tax code more competitive so that businesses are attracted to Arizona. You do everything in your power to make absolutely imperative that jobs are first. And stop saying things that are untrue that defame our state. Like there are beheadings in the desert Arizona is a violent place. There has been a thirty year reduction in our violent crime rate. Our men and women of law enforcement have done a great job and it's time to thank them and not tear them down.

Ted Simons: Larry, jobs in Arizona, what are you going to do?

Larry Gist: Simply, increase the involvement in industrial bonds to help directly create job per job. We bring a dollar in we need to make sure we create a job here. We need to look at creating manufacturing jobs and get back to the basics in terms of structure and terms of providing manufacturing. Not just buying from somewhere else and assembling here and utilizing our resources in the state in terms of industrial bonds and giving direction on leadership to the markets and the credit markets that we have a direction. We're going forward and we can get past S.B. 1070.

Barry Hess: I couldn't disagree more. I think government is what screws everything up. Part of the problem is that 90% of the jobs created have come from the private sector. We've got so many regulations, it's a strangle hold. That's why I propose eliminating many of those regulations so that people can grow without having to look over their shoulder and along with that, I propose the elimination of the personal income tax. We cannot allow the government to steal and not expect the people to do the same thing, along with the property tax, which is blatantly unconstitutional and the death tax and the revenue should come from transactions involving corporate structure on a flat basis without exception and gong to the corporate structure with a flat 4% on the gross end of story no deductions on businesses would give a stable business environment in dealing with the manufacturers we've talked to to solicit to see what it would take to bring them here. They want political stability.

Ted Simons: Governor there's a thought that the income tax rate has steadily gone down and a line of thinking that says increase income tax and cut the business tax in order to stimulate the economy, get some jobs going, what’s your thoughts?

Jane Brewer: I called early on when I first became Governor for tax reform something that we need to look at and make equitable and fair and we have to be cautious. When I became governor, I was facing a huge deficit. A big black hole and as we moved through those two legislative sessions trying to get tax reform done, it was difficult because we had to cut $2.2 billion out of the budget to get the balanced budget completed but I'm looking forward to the upcoming legislative session and it's probably one of the most important things on our list. To make us competitive and do tax reform. When you have a emergency, you don't wait two years to get started and when you have an urgent need to bring jobs to the state of Arizona, you don't wait until the next legislative session, actually the third, before putting tax reform to make us more competitive on the table. That should have been done immediately. It needs to be done right now, if possible understanding a special session. Arizona is hurting, 128,000 jobs have left the state while Jan Brewer has been governor. Number one in the nation for job loss. That's an emergency. That doesn't allow to you to wait and deliberate. You have to put all the folks in action. I put out an emergency action plan. It will bring 300,000 jobs into the state right away and we need to start that kind of emergency action.

Ted Simons: Please.

Jan Brewer: Well, you know, and I'm glad, Terry, you mentioned that. We're in crisis and it's because of six long years of the prior administration and you digging us into a hole. Spending more, building a bigger government.
Terry Goddard: Governor, I brought hundreds of thousands of dollars into the state as attorney general, that's helped keep us out of trouble.
Jan Brewer: It's the largest ever crisis Arizona has ever of faced and we've done a good job at turning it around. We've brought thousands of jobs into Arizona. We have brought millions of dollars into Arizona on capital assets and we'll continue doing that at difficult times.

Jan Brewer: The trouble is you've lost hundreds of thousands of jobs. Our kids today don't even think about coming to Arizona to start their career. They don't believe there's an opportunity here and we're leaving one important item off the table. Arizona will never recover when our schools are last. And I don't know how you can tolerate that Arizona schools are not performing and failing and the support for schools is last in the nation. That's an abomination, that’s the worst thing we can have in terms of recovery.

Jan Brewer: Maybe you can talk to your good union friends about boycotting jobs and driving people away from Arizona.

Terry Goddard: What are we going to do to get our schools out the cellar?

Jan Brewer: You don't believe the boycotts are affecting our --

Terry Goddard: I'm sorry?

Ted Simons: As we try to figure that one out. Try to get you two on the same page. I want to go to you, Larry, get in on this and the idea that a tax structure needs to change. The idea that maybe the income tax rate in Arizona needs to increase?

Larry Gist: Well, in these dire times, nothing should be taken of the table. And -- and Jan said -- kind of started saying how we got into the mess. In '04 and '05 and '06, we had excess money, what did we do with it, we didn’t put it into a rainy day fund, where did the money go? We might not be in such dire straits had we put the rainy day money away and had it at this time. I wouldn't take anything off the table right now.

Barry Hess: I think these are the most critical times, not the most critical we'll ever face but it is so far and you can see the political division between Republicans and Democrats is pretty office. They all promise out of the box thinking but like Janet Napolitano, all we end up with is a bigger box and that's important to understand that the people of Arizona should know I represent the governor who will represent you. Not preserving the administration. I mean, we saw the prop 100 that Jan was all excited about to get to raise $3 billion, I believe, but that was foisted on people during a depression, to cover up -- they simply over-hired. We've got to pare government down and make it smaller. I think we've seen $70 million hidden in the budget, coming up on property taxes while facing $750 million coming up that nobody wants to talk about that means more taxes on top of the Obama care, three waves of the largest tax increases in history in the worst economic times imaginable.

Ted Simons: Governor, respond to that please.

Jan Brewer: Proposition 100 was overwhelming supported by the voters here in Arizona and I led that campaign and I believe they understood the problems and issues and I believed it, they listened to Jan Brewer and believed and trusted me because of my long record in public service. And it was the right thing do. And doing the right thing always means doing the hard thing.

Barry Hess: And that's unfortunate they fell for that. Because the reality is the taxes didn't help. These guys are all trying to preserve the state administration and as the ship of the state of Arizona starting sinking, the difference is obvious. I want to save the people, they want to save the boat.

Terry Goddard: Prop 100 was supported by parents and teachers and just folks all across Arizona because they felt it was a desperate situation. $1.1 billion because of Jan Brewer's cuts and knew that any more cuts would be devastating to public education in Arizona and they came out and did what they have to do to put prop 100 into effect but for Jan Brewer to take credit for saving education with prop 100 is like taking credit for saving someone from the water when you're the one who pushed them in. You can't say you saved them from drowning when you're the one that pushed them over the side.

Jan Brewer: You know that's interesting, and somewhat fascinating because I got involved in politics because of education. Because I understand just how important it is. To our -- to our state and our country. It's the future. And I did leave the campaign because if -- I did lead the campaign, because if I hadn't, education would have been decimated. It was tough times. We did not have the funds because of the prior administration. They were spending money left and right. Times were good and new programs and spending the rainy day fund and it wasn't even raining and then I arrived and it was a tough road to hoe. But I have got the job done.

Terry Goddard: The fact is the school districts were already drawing up the list of teachers they were going to fire. I have a sixth grader, he came home with a note, saying that if prop 100 didn't pass, 130 teachers would be fired from Phoenix Elementary District. That's saying you got to do this or the schools are toast. It's a failure of planning and a failure – It’s a failure at the very beginning of this Governors term to put the problems on the table and say what are our priorities and how are we going to get them done.

Ted Simons: Let's get back to what we've heard. The previous administration fiscally mismanaged and overspent by leaps and bounds. We've heard this from a couple of candidates at the table tonight. Previous administration, democratic governor. How do you respond?

Terry Goddard: It's a lot of shifting of blame. At this moment, everybody knew when we went into the election in '08, Arizona had approximately a $3 billion deficit. That was out for everybody to see because we were in a national recession. Everybody got caught in that recession. I'm not here to make excuses for Janet Napolitano, she made mistakes as governor but she's gone. And now Jan Brewer has the job and I don’t think it does any good for her to continue to shift the blame back, she needs to take responsibility for what she has done and what she's done is failed to balance the budget and failed to put a jobs plan on the table and failed to treat our urgent need to bring jobs back to Arizona with the urgency it deserves.

Ted Simons: Please respond to that.

Jan Brewer: First, let me say that I don't know if Terry Goddard really supported proposition 100 or not.

Terry Goddard: I certainly did.

Jan Brewer: He did jump on a few days before it went into the ballot and tested the wind and got on board. He knew it was the only solution. Bottom line is that I had -- Jan Brewer had to move in and correct a huge mess. In 2006, we knew because of big spending and new programs and smoke and mirrors that Arizona was headed into bankruptcy and then on top of that came the recession, so, you know, there but for the grace of god, I arrived and rolled up my sleeves and put my pencil to paper and did the job.

Ted Simons: Barry, get in on this.

Barry Hess: It wasn't overwhelming by any stretch of the imagination. Only 30% of the people showed up for the prop 100 and 67% of them voted for it and it was overwhelming in the election however, only 25% of the population. To make sure that the numbers are correct. But let's not lose focus. The purpose of government education is to graduate a competent young man or young woman, capable of making their own way without becoming a burden to anyone. These guys talk about saving the administration. That's that boat I was talking about. I'm talking about the progress of the individual student. We're still last, still at the bottom. Nothing has happened and Prop 100 went through. Here we are, same place, more taxes.

Ted Simons: We morphed our way into he had education, Larry, let's get started.

Larry Gist: I see that.

Ted Simons: Arizona is always ranked low. Very few surveys where we're not escaping bottom in one way or the other. How come? What's going on?

Larry Gist: I think part of it is the formula that government -- federal government uses and ties dollars they give back to the state and how they measure our success or failure. So that's a big part of it and the ELL program, for example. And the -- there's 151,000, approximately 13%, 14% of the K-12 that have English language learning, which means one or two the parents don't read or write English and the child does. My understanding we had an arrangement with the federal government that we had a four-year window to bring that up. To get that in the English side and we shrunk that down, the federal government did, to one year, so we get a lot of dollars from the federal government and, therefore, it's tied to that but the way they measure it, I'm redundant, it causes a problem because of the structure they do for the ones that are non-English and it's a problem. Secondly, we do need to reform where we put the dollars that we have and I would be more toward classroom first. Put it back to the teachers first.

Ted Simons: Same question, Terry. The idea that Arizona never seems to get over the hump in terms of education studies and research. What's going on?

Terry Goddard: Well, Arizona is failing at schools and failing our students. We have a situation where we're dead last in resources per child and that's an abomination. We've got to change that and according to no child left behind, 46th at the fourth grade level and 40th in the eighth grade. What we're concerned about is making sure that our young people are ready to compete in an increasingly competitive world market. According to Dr. Crow, only 25% of high school graduates from Arizona are ready to go to college. That's terrible. We have one of the highest dropout rates in the nation and we have to work very hard on making our public education system much, much better. I have a goal to move from the bottom 10 to the top 10 in 10 years, that's the focus we need. A commitment from the governor to public education will get us out of this economic mess and nothing short of that will do.

Ted Simons: It's got to be more than holding back third grade and giving schools letter grades.

Jan Brewer: That's part. The education reform that we've instituted. Bottom line is that we need to move in a direction, which we had begun with putting or framework, our blueprint together with race to the top. We didn't do well the first round. But the second round, Arizona came out 19th out of 32 and we now have the footprint and we'll continue moving down there with the new idea and reforms and it's important that parents know exactly how well their schools are performing and it is important that they understand it's easy to get -- that it's easy enough to get away from the other kinds of designations and social promotion is something that's no longer going to happen in Arizona. We need to reward, I believe, those good teachers that inspire us and we have. And we'll start. Requiring superintendents to have their salaries based on 20% on job performance. Those are the kind of things we really need to do and we'll continue moving in that direction.

Terry Goddard: We need to reward the best teachers, that's where our rewards should go, but we're not going to reform education by taking $1.1 billion out of education and getting rid of the one thing that works and that's all-day kindergarten. When Jan Brewer got rid of that she set our schools back significantly.

Jan Brewer: I hate to bring this up because I'm changing the subject again. But Terry keeps talking about the cutting and what we need do and when we need to get it done. Terry, where is your plan?

Terry Goddard: It's -- we're going to grow our economy. That's what needs to be done.

Jan Brewer: You have no plan.

Terry Goddard: You're the governor, you need to have a balanced budget and you haven't done that yet.

Jan Brewer: Terry, you know, you're the attorney general, you have to have a balanced budget. Read the constitution. You should know that of all people you should know that.

Terry Goddard: The end of '09, the budget was $450 million out of balance, when you finally got a budget in '10, it took 10 months to do it so you kind of missed the deadline, it was $150 million out of balance.

Jan Brewer: Terry, Terry, Terry, Terry, Terry, we balanced the budget, you're not going to get away with that, we balanced the budget.

Terry Goddard: You check your facts, you haven't balanced it yet since you were governor. The second year it was $150 million.

Jan Brewer: And why didn't you do something about it if that was the case.

Terry Goddard: You know the constitution.

Jan Brewer: We have to balance the budget and we did. And then --

Terry Goddard: No, governor --

Jan Brewer: And then we had the Obama administration blow a hole in it because they demanded more spending. Get your facts, Mr. Goddard, tell me where you get the money to make up the difference. What's your plan, Terry. What is your plan?

Terry Goddard: You need to have a balanced budget.

Jan Brewer: You need to have a --

Ted Simons: I feel -- I feel -- hold on! Hold on, please, Terry. Barry, get in on this.

Barry Hess: Absolutely, they're talking -- we've gotten off topic. We were talking about education. And now if she balance it or not. And I would say, not. All you've done is preserve the state. But realistically as a governor, we've got it -- in the education thing, got to stop focusing on just the welfare system and the government schools and look at the education of populace which is something I hold dear. We look -- I think less than $6,000 a year and yet the state doubles that and ends up with an inferior product. It's not the kids, it's the institution we've got to reform and care about it in a bigger sense and encourage education at all levels from all sides and all possibilities, be it home schooling or sitting by the fireside. I'm interested in smart kids.

Ted Simons: Larry, sitting by the fire side sound good.

Larry Gist: For education? It should help us, I agree.

Ted Simons: That was easy enough. Let's -- let's go to healthcare and Terry, you did not want Arizona to join the healthcare reform lawsuit and that healthcare -- the federal healthcare reform looks like it's going to hit Arizona, and hard. First of all, and it still seems to be a moving target. Those who wanted you to join the suit. Are looking at $11 billion in the next decade costing -- get in line with federal healthcare. Why did you not join the suit?

Terry Goddard: I read it and felt it didn't stack up as a legal proposition. But the courts are going to decide whether or not there's a constitutional problem here. I happen to think there's not and we shouldn't waste Arizona resources ton a vain and political effort to continue it into the courts. The bottom line, there are many things about healthcare reform that benefit Arizona. At the end of 10 years, we're $2 billion ahead with healthcare reform than without it. And those are the facts and it does things I applaud. It allows kids to stay on the family insurance policy until they're 26 and it means you can't throw somebody off with a preexisting condition and seniors get dental care and these are things that help to make healthcare affordable to as many people as we can. It's not perfect and Arizona after 10 years is $2.3 billion better off than they would be without it.

Ted Simons: Better off than without it?

Jan Brewer: No, I immediately filed suit against the federal government on Obama care. First and foremost, I think it's unconstitutional. As well as 22 other attorney generals. The bottom line, we can't afford it and it's wrong for the federal government to tell the people of Arizona that you've got to buy something and if you don't, we're going to penalize you. Today, we can't even afford the -- today, we can't afford the Medicaid program in this state and we provide the highest standard of AHCCCS. We call it AHCCCS, the Medicaid dollars, than anyone else in the country and to continue, to have the Obama administration and Mr. Goddard to continually want to up the ANTE and increase the benefits to people that simply can't afford it is inherently wrong and the bill is inherently unconstitutional and we will win.

Terry Goddard: Governor, you know full well the costs have nothing to do with healthcare reform. They're part of proposition 204 passed by the voters of Arizona, mandated by you, it's not something you're doing out of generosity. The only other piece is kids care and that's something that I personally can not understand how you could have vetoed it. How you could have eliminated a program that takes almost 50,000 kids who otherwise couldn't afford medical insurance and knocks them of the rolls. That's mean and hard-hearted and incredibly economically destructive for the state of Arizona.

Jan Brewer: And Terry, how would you pay for it? Give me your plan.

Terry Goddard: Here's the plan given to you by the voters of Arizona and you can't by your actions say, I'm sorry we're not going to follow that one. You have to get the voters to consider it, as you're trying to get rid of first things first. You have to do the same with prop 204 if you plan to cut the program. It's not the Obama program. It's not healthcare reform. We have to meet the standards that the Arizona voters --

Jan Brewer: How do we afford this big, big government that you want.

Terry Goddard: Bring the jobs back to Arizona that have been lost in your administration.

Jan Brewer: Terry, you need to tell us facts and give us a plan. I mean, all --

Terry Goddard: I have given you a plan and you've failed to balance a budget --

Jan Brewer: No, you've not given us a plan. You just talk about spending and how horrible the cutting is. We need to get government under control.

Terry Goddard: As attorney and mayor of Phoenix --

Jan Brewer: You're cut out of the same cloth as the Obama administration. Bigger government and more spending.

Barry Hess: I saw the whole Obama campaign for as healthcare for the indigent to healthcare for everybody. That's absurd. We can lower the prices -- get government completely out of our private business, we wouldn't need insurance, we could afford it out of our hip pocket. It's absurd, if we provide anything as the state administration, it should be the county hospital system. Reinvigorated. If you need stabilization, we'll not leave people bleeding on the sidewalks.

Ted Simons: The idea that the Obama healthcare reform is absurd, agree?

Larry Gist: The original question -- I wanted to add in on that. I think it's a state's right. Health insurance is a state right, not for the federal government to decide. It's we, the people, decide how we live and govern ourselves. A state issue. Number two, I do believe we live in the greatest and wealthiest countries in the world and we should find a way to develop affordable healthcare and government should put the pressure on -- we should put the pressure on the private sector to come up with a better solution for affordable healthcare.

Ted Simons: A terrible incident, the escape of prisoners from a private prison in Kingman with tragic consequences allegedly in New Mexico, and you have expressed confidence in private prisons and did so even after the escape. Are you still confident that private prisons are good for Arizona.

Jan Brewer: They've been there Arizona for approximately 20 years and utilized by us, the state and the federal government. The bottom line, it was a terrible incident that took place up in Kingman, Arizona, in regards to those people escaping out. And ended in a horrible tragedy. Bottom line, immediately, I moved forward with a top-to-bottom investigation of what actually took place there. And it is determined that it was human error, unfortunately. And moved forward to get those people replaced. Then I moved forward with an investigation and an oversight plan to see exactly what was going on in all of our other prisons. And let me say, you know, I've been on it, I've immediately got a hold of Mr. Ryan, the department of corrections and commend him for the job he's done. But I would like to commend all of law enforcement, given the tragedy that took place. The Department of Corrections and Department of Public Safety and the Marshal's Office and a special recognition to the forester who I.D.ed the people who were able to get McCluskey and Welch arrested without incident. But we -- you know --

Ted Simons: I want to ask, is there a place for private prisons in Arizona?

Terry Goddard: I don't think the issue is whether or not this is private prisons. The issue is safety for the people of Arizona and the thing for all of us who have been reading about this, under Jan Brewer's administration, 400 violent criminals were moved into a facility designed for drunk drivers and there was no increase in training or the security of the facility. 117 of those people were murderers, convicted of either 1st or 2nd degree murder. There was no information given to the sheriff of Mohave county or the policemen in Kingman and the department of corrections did an audit in Kingman and made three minor suggestions and when they came in after the escape, they found it was an absolute meltdown situation and a climate of indifference to safety and 89 false alarms within 16 hours of the escape and the people did not have proper training and they were brand new on the job and there was a brick next to the door they escaped out of that had been used to prop it open and guards who changed their shift were gone from their sight for nine to 20 minutes. Three people strolled out and murdered two people. This is a terrible abdication of the people of Arizona to protect --

Ted Simons: An abdication of responsibility?

Jan Brewer: It was -- it was, you know, a terrible situation, you know, and we don't deny that. Unfortunately, it was human error and it's been resolved and the people responsible have been ousted. The private prisons and classifications were put in place years ago reviewed again in 2005. And Terry Goddard signed off on those classifications to allow them -- those classified prisoners to go into the Kingman prison.

Terry Goddard: That's not true.

Jan Brewer: Terry Goddard did that without any public hearing or any legislative oversight.
Terry Goddard: You know that's not true and it's in your watch that the violent criminals were moved to a facility designed for DUIs. Drunk drivers. 400 violent offenders move to that facility and your administration said everything is fine and obviously everything was not fine and still, the escape was a month ago yesterday, and you still have not put together what you have to do, in my opinion --

Ted Simons: Ok --

Jan Brewer: The classification was completed in 2005 --

Terry Goddard: The commission study and all the security --

Ted Simons: Please.

Jan Brewer: And you signed off on it.

Terry Goddard: It has nothing to do with it. It was the transfer of violent prisoners to a facility classified for --

Ted Simons: Ok.

Terry Goddard: The lowest --

Ted Simons: Stop right there. We've got 30 seconds. Respond to this please.

Larry Gist: I think there's a place for privatization of prisons but before I shift or point fingers and put the blame it's a tragic situation, let's wait for the review and see what comes out.

Terry Goddard: But the review hasn't been asked for. Governor Brewer has not asked for impartial outside of the department of corrections --

Ted Simons: Barry, respond, please.

Terry Goddard: Sweeping the problem out under the rug.

Barry Hess: I'm all about privatization but I've had second thoughts because of this. And probably there's a place in some circumstances, maybe for the drunk drivers or the -- but I think the state should be in control of its prisons.

Ted Simons: Terry, we're legitimately out of time and thank you all for a lively discussion. Each candidate will now deliver a one-minute closing statement. We start with Jan Brewer.

Jan Brewer: Thank you, Ted. I think the choice tonight is very, very clear. I have brought thousands of jobs and millions of dollars in capital investment to the state of Arizona and Terry has done nothing. I've balanced the budget and cut spending by $2 billion and Terry has no plan. I have supported proposition 100 and led the campaign to protect education. And public safety. And Terry jumped on board four days before the election after he turned his finger into a weather vane. And supported S.B. 1070, signed and defended it and called out loudly to get our borders secured. I have signed and supported proposition 200 which limits benefits to illegal immigrants and I have worked hard and executed voter I.D. at the polls. The bottom line, I have fought back against Obama healthcare and will continue to do that. Tonight, I ask you to make a clear choice and ask for your vote and together we can get the job done.

Ted Simons: Thank you very much. And next up with a one-minute closing statement is Larry Gist.

Larry Gist: Thank you. Why I entered the race, like many of you watching the news and complaining about what I saw, I decided to enter the race and try to do something to make a difference. I saw people losing their home, their jobs and thought I would enter into the process and make a difference. I think my background of 35 years in the technology private sector and in the financial services would benefit Arizona in work with the private sector. What I learned in Arizona history was the five C’s -- the copper, the cattle, the cotton, the citrus and the climate. I would like to be the governor that adding the sixth C. And that's create. I would like to be known for creating jobs.

Ted Simons: Terry Goddard.

Terry Goddard: This is a fight for Arizona's future. The choice is simple. Jan Brewer’s failing tract. We have failing schools and lost hundreds of thousands of jobs and a broken budget. Or we can pull together and fight to recover those jobs and fix the schools and stop the crazy partisan bickering that affects our state. Jan Brewer said she's changed everything and sadly that's true. We've gone from first to worst in job production. She's the first governor to fail in her term to balance the state budget. This is not the Arizona that we want. My emergency job plan would bring 300,000 jobs to the state. That's the first job I would be engaged in as your governor. It takes more than letters and lawsuits. As A.G., I've been fighting the cartels. We've seized over $20 million of their assets and that's the success we need in the next governor. I'm a proud Arizonan. My family loves our state but tired of the way it's going. Thank you, Ted and all.

Ted Simons: And now Barry Hess.

Barry Hess: Go to hessforgovernor.com so you can get the full story. We need someone who doesn't fear political repercussion or reprisal. I offer the opportunity for the people of Arizona to have a constitutional government, one who stands up for your individual rights above all things. You are what we are here to serve for. We have one purpose for government here in Arizona and that's to protect the rights and property of the individual. I'll do that. We haven't seen it done. We've seen political divisiveness. I’ll give you a clear path. With your vote for Barry Hess. Let Arizona win this election. Thank you very much.

Ted Simons: Thank you, Barry, and candidates, and thank you for watching this clean elections debate on a special edition. "Horizon." This debate is available online, by visiting our website. azpbs.org/vote2010. You have a great evening.

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