Horizon, Host: Ted Simons

July 7, 2005


Host: Michael Grant

First Thursday: The Governor on HORIZON


  • Governor Janet Napolitano is scheduled in studio for her monthly First Thursday interview. Topics include the ongoing wildfires in Arizona, the summit she is organizing on immigration, and her fight to save local military bases.
Guests:
  • Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano -
  • Ruth McGregor - Chief Justice, Arizona Supreme Court


View Transcript
>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," four bomb blasts killed dozens of people and injured hundreds in London during rush hour this morning. We'll get Governor Janet Napolitano's reaction to that. The Governor also will talk about her new plan to have state police aid federal police in stopping human smuggling. Plus, you'll hear from Arizona's chief Supreme Court justice and the court's newest member about their days clerking for United States Supreme Court justice Sandra Day O'Connor. That's next on "Horizon."

>>Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of channel 8. Members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "First Thursday, the Governor on Horizon." The first Thursday of every month, Governor Janet Napolitano visits our set to talk about the latest issues affecting our state, and in tonight's case, our world. At least 40 people were killed and 700 injured in four bomb blasts during London's rush hour this morning. Three of the bombs went off in the subway system, one in a double-Decker bus. Here in the United States, the threat level was raised to orange for transit systems, including the transit system here in the Phoenix area. Arizona homeland security director Frank Navarette commented on the situation.

>> Frank Navarette:
The alert status within Arizona is focused primarily and only on the valley transit authority, which is the City of Phoenix bus system. That was a decision and determination based upon Secretary Chertoff's advice and Mayor Phil Gordon and his staff. So it's a judgment call based upon the advice when it came out. What does that translate out to for the average citizen? Police are placed on an additional alert and an awareness of people boarding buses and the like. We've asked all of the bus drivers via digitized information that they receive in the bus systems to be wary of unusual packages and people, that sort of thing. It's a matter of increased awareness. They are focusing a lot on bus terminals, both people getting on and off buses. It's a general increased surveillance and awareness.

>> Michael Grant:
Here now to talk about the London blasts plus her latest efforts on illegal immigration is Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano. Grim news from London.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Truly grim, yes.

>> Michael Grant:
I didn't realize that you went to the London school of economics and were there for some time.

>> Janet Napolitano:
I attended the school when I was a junior in college and lived in central London and knows the areas and the tube stops that were bombed today. I think there was a police officer who said it very well this morning, they were shocked but not surprised. I think shocked at the timing, not surprised that something was bound to happen, and it was tragically so.

>> Michael Grant:
Listening to the words of the London mayor and the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, I couldn't help but go back to some of Winston Churchill's rhetoric --

>> Janet Napolitano:
"we will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them-" yeah, I thought so too. It must be difficult, of course, Tony Blair was in Scotland for the G8, had to rush back as he needs to be with his people and in this situation, and hopefully the criminal investigation side is ramped up and they will find the group or groups responsible and bring them to justice and in the meantime, a whole lot of casualties and their families who need to be taken care of.

>> Michael Grant:
Obviously we heard from Arizona's homeland security director and the increased, the stepped up, alert level focus on mass transit.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Right.

>> Michael Grant:
No indication that mass transit in Arizona would be targeted?

>> Janet Napolitano:
No, I think this is a better safe than sorry type of scenario. Actually, Frank and I exchanged our first call this morning about a quarter to 6:00, as soon as we learned of the London situation, and immediately he went over to our 24/7 intelligence center and was on a nationwide conference call with the secretary of Homeland Security. The reason I mentioned those things, even though this came as a surprise in terms of timing, we now have processes in place so that we can immediately ramp up and do what we need to do in Arizona, even for something that's happened halfway around the world. So by the time I had a cabinet meeting today, it was a regularly scheduled cabinet meeting, not special for this event, we were able to give an update and apprise the public. I had spoken with the mayor. As you correctly note, whatever is going on with respect to the orange alert for mass transit is going on for all mass transit around the country, it's not because we think there is a special threat for Arizona, indeed, any special threat domestically.

>> Michael Grant:
You have a trip to London scheduled in a couple of weeks. You have no intent of canceling it, but would it remain fluid from the standpoint of how London might feel about that kind of trip or England or whatever kind of additional security they might be locking in?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Well, one of the reasons I'm going is I'm doing a number of meetings, some of them are follow-up meetings from thigh my trade mission last November. Some are meetings that we couldn't get scheduled last November that we were going to do. Those meetings are two weeks from now, and I was impressed by the spirit of Londoners on the media today. They were going about their business, and they did seem like they were taking it in stride.

>> Michael Grant:
Let me move to our border, because it does seem to me that this episode -- we focus on a lot of issues concerning immigration, as you know, and illegal immigration, a lot of those tend to be economic and certainly the border security issues and those kinds of things. What we tend to forget sometimes, though, is there also is a terrorism security aspect to border security, and I guess episodes like this kind of focus on that aspect as well.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Well, and I was at our border with Secretary Chertoff a few weeks ago and made the point that one of the problems with the fact that our economic immigration system is broken, so that we have so many people coming illegally through the border to work, that we don't have the ability to distinguish between somebody coming over to work or coming to commit a terrorist offense. And that is one of the many reasons why the federal government needs to put way more resources on the Arizona border.

>> Michael Grant:
Let's talk about -- we've got a couple, three, proposals out this week. Let's get to as many as we can.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Sure.

>> Michael Grant:
The DPS -- I believe it was a 12-man unit working with a similar-sized Border Patrol unit.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Here's the problem we're trying to address. In the Maricopa County area, if they, you know, stop -- you know, go to a stash house and find 30 undocumented individuals or what have you, people here illegally, a lot of times they have to release those folks because there is literally no one to pick them up, get them entered into the federal criminal justice system, have them detained and so forth. What we have offered to homeland security is two full squads of Department of Public Safety personnel, six officers -- 12 officers who would be paired with federal agents whose sole job would be to pick people up, make sure that their paperwork is processed and they are entered into the justice system the way they need to be as opposed to the current policy of catch and release. That's part one of our program. Number two, through some homeland security dollars we have, we know that the human smuggling operations in Arizona are facilitated by a few things. One of the things is a very sophisticated market in fraudulent manufacture and sale of IDs. We've married the department of liquor and the Department of Transportation, MVD and our Inspector General and Department of Public Safety all housed are the 24/7 intelligence center and they are to find the people selling false documents into these operations. They have only been up and at it a little bit, and they have dealt with I think 1,000 IDs is what I saw. They are clearly moving ahead very rapidly. The third thing we rolled out this week is an enhanced presence with respect to auto theft, particularly autos that are going south toward Mexico, and --

>> Michael Grant:
Increased photo surveillance?

>> Janet Napolitano:
And we have a partnership with the government of Sonora, the state of Sonora to assist us with that. We've always had a good relationship with the government of Sonora, but Governor Boris and I got together and we are both state Governors and said our respective captain tolls are not doing what they need to do to keep our borders safe and secure. That's where the auto theft idea came from.

>> Michael Grant:
Part of the auto theft thing being that frequently stolen vehicles from Arizona taken back across the border and then used to bring people back?

>> Janet Napolitano:
To smuggle human beings back, correct. That's what I said. What I'm trying to do is focus, you know, the State is not going to be another immigration service. That's the federal government, but what we can, I think and need to do in these circumstances is to have some focus and targeted law enforcement activity that goes to the supports for the huge trafficking businesses that are ongoing now, and so we're dealing with the catch-and-release issue in Phoenix, dealing with the stolen car facilitation for these smuggling rings and the fraudulent identifications.

>> Michael Grant:
Now, legislative Republicans, senate representative Ken Bennett says this is an exercise in political rehabilitation-- what do you say?

>> Janet Napolitano:
I say, come off it. Yeah, I vetoed bills, but I signed bills. I signed bills making human trafficking a felony. I signed bills allowing judges to enhance a criminal sentence if you commit a crime while you are here illegally. I signed a bill precluding using public money for day labor centers. I don't think that that should enhance the demand side of the traffic. I did sign bills that I thought would work. I vetoed some which would have had an impact on lawful Arizonans who reside here legally as opposed to illegal immigration. And I think what we need to do now is take the politics out of this particular discussion, the rhetoric has gotten way too red-hot on both sides, and say what can we do pragmatically, day-by-day, step by step to strengthen the law enforcement efforts where illegal immigration is concerned, human trafficking and human smuggling, and that's what I intend to do.

>> Michael Grant:
For example, if your concern is with false IDs, why veto the consular ID bill?

>> Janet Napolitano
It wasn't about consular IDs. It would have applied to every foreign issued passport. If you were here from great Britain and you had to use your passport for identification, we couldn't accept it the way that bill was drafted. It was very overbroad. I have to mention --

>> Michael Grant:
Could you craft a better one? Because my information is that the consular IDs are a little shaky.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Then you need to tell all of the banks in the State of Arizona, all of which take the consular ID. Tell the cities, most of which take the consular ID. Tell our big retail establishments, all of which take the consular ID.

>> Michael Grant:
Wasn't that part of the thrust of the bill was to tell levels of government and perhaps tell other people, listen; you ought to know this is a questionable form of ID?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Don't you think that before a large national bank has decided they will take an ID that they've already looked into it? I mean, come on. I think that we take all kinds of ID.

>> Michael Grant:
I blue hot and cold on that. Every time they mess up my account, I'm not sure how competent they are.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Read the veto message on that bill. One of the things I singled out, it wasn't a consular ID bill. It applied to all kinds of foreign issued IDs, passports included.

>> Michael Grant:
Another veto, if the concern is catch and release, and you are absolutely correct about that, we've all heard the horror stories, but why not allow the option, not the mandate, to local law enforcement to go ahead and enforce immigration laws?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Yeah, and I'll tell you why I vetoed that. I vetoed that in part because every local agency in state asked me to veto the bill. Why? Because they don't have the resources to do the catch and release. Their officers are supposed to be policing streets. They have other duties. What our plan will do is allow a combined squad of federal and state agencies to come take those undocumented aliens off the local police hands so they can go back to the street crime fighting they are being paid to do. This is the kind of setup they were asking for, not an unfunded mandate to them that would take them away from their other assigned duties.

>> Michael Grant:
Even though it wasn't mandatory? No locality would have to do it.

>> Janet Napolitano:
The way it was being broadcast and talked about, the political pressure on them to do it would have been insurmountable. Like I said, when the bill came to me, it was a flood of -- and the bill did not pass by much in the legislature, I must say. It was a very close vote. And law enforcement came to me and I understand the situation because I've been in federal prosecution and state prosecution. I understand exactly what they were telling me saying, Janet, this is not something we can do and it creates an unreal expectation. We need to think our way through that. So we have proposed the joint DPS/federal squad for Maricopa County, and then next week, there will be a large meeting of about 100 state, federal and local law enforcement chiefs and others --

>> Michael Grant:
What are you hoping comes out of that?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Other practical pragmatic recommendations on what we can do on the law enforcement end to free up federal agent time to do the immigration work they need to do, to keep our local police officers able to do the street crime work they need to do, but to enable us to enforce more fully, the immigration laws that right now are not being enforced.

>> Michael Grant:
When they came to you on that bill, did they have any tips that they gave you? You know, this is a really bad idea, but I've been thinking about this one and this would be very practical.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Not at that time, but I asked them for that. And part of this, you have to realize what a huge culture change this is. Back when I was, for example, the United States attorney, the federal government would tell state and local law enforcement, stay away from immigration, that's us, that's our sole responsibility, it's exclusive federal jurisdiction, you don't have a role. Well now we know the federal government simply hasn't put the resources into Arizona it needs to and it's no longer sufficient to say, well, it's the feds' responsibility. We have to be creative and think about targeted, focused, law enforcement efforts where state and fed can go together. That's what we're doing.

>> Michael Grant:
Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano, thank you for joining us.

>> Janet Napolitano:
You bet.

>> Michael Grant:
Two of Arizona's Supreme Court Justices are among those who have clerked for United States Supreme Court justice Sandra Day O'Connor. She recently announced her retirement. We'll talk to the two Arizona justices about their experiences with O'Connor, but first, Mike Sauceda gives us a brief look at a statue commissioned by O'Connor's former clerks.

>> Mike Sauceda:
It started with an idea to put a portrait of the United States supreme Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Two of her former clerks Ruth McGregor and attorney Scott Bales wanted to honor their mentor.

>> Ruth McGregor:
There was no place to hang a portrait where it would not be either obscured or lost in the space around it.

>> Mike Sauceda:
So instead, they chose a bronze statue to honor O'Connor. A committee was formed to raise funds and find the artist. Committee wanted one from the west, an Arizonan and a woman. Art teacher Susan Henningson was perfectly sculpted for the job. It was a daunting task.

>> Susan Henningson:
I'm a sculptor and an art teacher; Justice O'Connor is a world figure. Although it seemed a daunting project, the concept for the sculpture came to me quite effortlessly, and I had a very spiritual peace about it.

>> Mike Sauceda:
After more than a year of work, The statue was finally put into place and unveiled at the federal court building in downtown Phoenix in 2002. Many dignitaries attended with O'Connor commenting on the ceremony and her new statue.

>> Sandra Day O'Connor:
It's a little bit like attending one's own memorial service, which is a rare achievement indeed.

>> Michael Grant:
Here now to tell us about their experiences with Sandra Day O'Connor are Arizona Supreme Court chief justice Ruth McGregor and the newest member of the court, Scott Bales. We've almost got a quorum here; right?

>> Scott Bales
Of course.

>> Justice McGregor, you were the first crop.

>> Ruth McGregor:
I was.

>> Michael Grant:
How did that come about?

>> Ruth McGregor:
Well, when Justice O'Connor was nominated, justice potter Stewart had retired, and he had hired three of the four clerks that he was entitled to hire, leaving one slot open. I had known Justice O'Connor because her husband and I were partners at Fennimore Craig, and so when she was actually nominated, I wrote her a letter and asked whether she would like me to come along as a law clerk and fortunately for me, she said yes, and I went.

>> Michael Grant:
Did you go back to the confirmation hearings?

>> Ruth McGregor:
I was there, yes. I sat through them, uh-huh.

>> Michael Grant:
Wasn't that an amazing experience? I've done a lot of fun things in broadcasting, but that's right up there at the top of the fun things that -- it was such a turmoil back there.

>> Ruth McGregor:
It was a turmoil, and the hearings themselves were so interesting. One of my sisters had gone with me, and during the first morning, I thought that she was just a little bit nervous in her answers, and when we left for lunch, I said, my prediction is that by this afternoon, she will be lecturing and educating them, and she did.

>> Michael Grant:
Yeah. Now, Justice Bales, you were '84?

>> Scott Bales:
'84-'85.

>> Michael Grant:
So pretty early in the process. You were talking about how she would organize impromptu clerk tours to places?

>> Scott Bales:
Well, I think she -- I think this might have reflected that she sometimes thought we were working too hard, because out of the blue, she would show up and she would say she organized a trip to some newly opened art exhibit or something like that, and we would sweep down on the Smithsonian Museum and do a whirl-wind tour and be back at the chambers back at work in an hour.

>> Michael Grant:
And you were commenting that other people would kind of immediately do a double take?

>> Scott Bales:
She was very much, I guess, something of a celebrity in the Washington scene, so when you went out on things like that, heads turned.

>> Michael Grant:
Did she remain on the A-list, the A-party list in Washington for her entire 24 years? Because I know she was there in the early 1980s?

>> Ruth McGregor:
As far as I know, yes. She was always a sought-after guest, not only because of her position, but because the reasons we like to have particular people as guests. She was interested in the people. They were interested in meeting her. She has a broad range of interest. The O'Connors were always sought after as guests.

>> Michael Grant:
How did Justice O'Connor use her law clerks? I think different justices have different ways.

>> Scott Bales:
Well, she used them to, generally speaking help prepare the arguments that she wrote for the court. So you're sort of a research assistant. On the supreme Court they have so many petitions for review and things like that.

>>Michael Grant:
That is an interesting aspect that most of the public is unaware of.

>> Scott Bales:
Right. And the Supreme Court receives more than 6,000 applications for review each year, and they can't ever hear that many cases.

>> Michael Grant:
Right, I think only 72 this year were heard in Phoenix.

>> Scott Bales:
Well when Justice McGregor and I were each law clerks for Justice O'Connor the court was hearing more cases. So--

>>Michael Grant:
Is Justice O'Connor-obviously I've heard different stories about different justices insofar as their approach-some would use sounding boards and those types of things, other justices would say ok, and in excruciating detail, "here's what I think about this case" and then dictate actual sentences. Those are maybe the two extremes, where did Justice O'Connor fall on that continuum?

>> Ruth McGregor:
At least when I worked for her, her approach was to, once she had an assignment, she would sit down with all the clerks who were going to be working with her on the first draft of the opinion and she'd explain her reasoning and analysis and direction she wanted to take. Any changing she made to actual sentences came after the actual draft of the opinion. But we had a very clear notion of where she wanted to go because the analysis and the reasoning were always with the justice; I think that's true in all the chambers.

>> Michael Grant:
There's a lot of old tradition obviously associated with the Supreme Court; how often do the justices meet as a group to make their decisions? Is that a weekly event?

>> Ruth McGregor:
Well, when the justices are hearing oral arguments, there will be conferences about the arguments they heard. But they don't have oral arguments every week. If you look at the calendar for a particular court term, you know the judges will look at pieces every week. And they hear petitions for review every month. And of course in September they have summer session where they look at all the petitions for review filed over that summer.

>> Michael Grant:
Is it true that only the justices are in the room during that time? Anybody else?

>> Scott Bales:
Right. That is true. That's been a tradition for I think forever.

>> Michael Grant:
In fact, isn't it like the most junior justice that has to open the door or pour the water or something like that?

>> Scott Bales:
There is a tradition like that, I think whenever there's going to be, someone has to be the messenger, it's the newest justice that has to do it.

>> Michael Grant:
I would imagine the clerks would be quite curious as to what is going on inside that room.

>> Scott Bales:
I'm sure that's true, but I've never heard of a clerk getting close to the conference room to figure out what was going on.

>> Ruth McGregor:
Actually it would be very difficult because of where the conference room is physically located.

>> Michael Grant:
What is the one thing you two remember about the experience: with Justice O'Connor

>> Ruth McGregor:
The one thing that's the classical thing was the intense scrutiny given to her during her first term. The media, the public, everyone was interested in everything she did. Everything she said, every place she went. And then how she handled it all with so much grace, so much dignity.

>> Michael Grant:
Chief Justice Ruth McGregor, Justice Scott Bales, good to see you again.

>> Scott Bales:
Thank you, Mike.

>>Michael Grant:
You can check what will be on future "Horizon" shows or take a look at the transcript of tonight's show on www.azpbs.org . To get to the home page, scroll down and click on the work "Horizon."

We have a programming note tonight at nine, you can see a new version of "Fronline's" Program: Al Quadea's New Front. That is an exploration of the Global Terrorist Network. Thanks for being with us tonight. Tomorrow of course we'll have the Friday edition of Horizon, and we'll re-cap the week. Thanks very much for joining us on this Thursday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a good one.

O'Connor's Clerks


  • Two Arizona Supreme Court Justices are among those who clerked for United States Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who recently announced her retirement. Join Arizona Supreme Court Chief Justice Ruth McGregor and newly-appointed Justice Scott Bales as they talk about their time spent clerking with Sandra Day O'Connor.
Guests:
  • Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano -
  • Ruth McGregor - Chief Justice, Arizona Supreme Court


View Transcript
>> Michael Grant:
Tonight on "Horizon," four bomb blasts killed dozens of people and injured hundreds in London during rush hour this morning. We'll get Governor Janet Napolitano's reaction to that. The Governor also will talk about her new plan to have state police aid federal police in stopping human smuggling. Plus, you'll hear from Arizona's chief Supreme Court justice and the court's newest member about their days clerking for United States Supreme Court justice Sandra Day O'Connor. That's next on "Horizon."

>>Announcer:
"Horizon" is made possible by the friends of channel 8. Members who provide financial support to this Arizona PBS station. Thank you.

>> Michael Grant:
Good evening, I'm Michael Grant. Welcome to "First Thursday, the Governor on Horizon." The first Thursday of every month, Governor Janet Napolitano visits our set to talk about the latest issues affecting our state, and in tonight's case, our world. At least 40 people were killed and 700 injured in four bomb blasts during London's rush hour this morning. Three of the bombs went off in the subway system, one in a double-Decker bus. Here in the United States, the threat level was raised to orange for transit systems, including the transit system here in the Phoenix area. Arizona homeland security director Frank Navarette commented on the situation.

>> Frank Navarette:
The alert status within Arizona is focused primarily and only on the valley transit authority, which is the City of Phoenix bus system. That was a decision and determination based upon Secretary Chertoff's advice and Mayor Phil Gordon and his staff. So it's a judgment call based upon the advice when it came out. What does that translate out to for the average citizen? Police are placed on an additional alert and an awareness of people boarding buses and the like. We've asked all of the bus drivers via digitized information that they receive in the bus systems to be wary of unusual packages and people, that sort of thing. It's a matter of increased awareness. They are focusing a lot on bus terminals, both people getting on and off buses. It's a general increased surveillance and awareness.

>> Michael Grant:
Here now to talk about the London blasts plus her latest efforts on illegal immigration is Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano. Grim news from London.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Truly grim, yes.

>> Michael Grant:
I didn't realize that you went to the London school of economics and were there for some time.

>> Janet Napolitano:
I attended the school when I was a junior in college and lived in central London and knows the areas and the tube stops that were bombed today. I think there was a police officer who said it very well this morning, they were shocked but not surprised. I think shocked at the timing, not surprised that something was bound to happen, and it was tragically so.

>> Michael Grant:
Listening to the words of the London mayor and the British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, I couldn't help but go back to some of Winston Churchill's rhetoric --

>> Janet Napolitano:
"we will fight them on the beaches, we will fight them-" yeah, I thought so too. It must be difficult, of course, Tony Blair was in Scotland for the G8, had to rush back as he needs to be with his people and in this situation, and hopefully the criminal investigation side is ramped up and they will find the group or groups responsible and bring them to justice and in the meantime, a whole lot of casualties and their families who need to be taken care of.

>> Michael Grant:
Obviously we heard from Arizona's homeland security director and the increased, the stepped up, alert level focus on mass transit.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Right.

>> Michael Grant:
No indication that mass transit in Arizona would be targeted?

>> Janet Napolitano:
No, I think this is a better safe than sorry type of scenario. Actually, Frank and I exchanged our first call this morning about a quarter to 6:00, as soon as we learned of the London situation, and immediately he went over to our 24/7 intelligence center and was on a nationwide conference call with the secretary of Homeland Security. The reason I mentioned those things, even though this came as a surprise in terms of timing, we now have processes in place so that we can immediately ramp up and do what we need to do in Arizona, even for something that's happened halfway around the world. So by the time I had a cabinet meeting today, it was a regularly scheduled cabinet meeting, not special for this event, we were able to give an update and apprise the public. I had spoken with the mayor. As you correctly note, whatever is going on with respect to the orange alert for mass transit is going on for all mass transit around the country, it's not because we think there is a special threat for Arizona, indeed, any special threat domestically.

>> Michael Grant:
You have a trip to London scheduled in a couple of weeks. You have no intent of canceling it, but would it remain fluid from the standpoint of how London might feel about that kind of trip or England or whatever kind of additional security they might be locking in?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Well, one of the reasons I'm going is I'm doing a number of meetings, some of them are follow-up meetings from thigh my trade mission last November. Some are meetings that we couldn't get scheduled last November that we were going to do. Those meetings are two weeks from now, and I was impressed by the spirit of Londoners on the media today. They were going about their business, and they did seem like they were taking it in stride.

>> Michael Grant:
Let me move to our border, because it does seem to me that this episode -- we focus on a lot of issues concerning immigration, as you know, and illegal immigration, a lot of those tend to be economic and certainly the border security issues and those kinds of things. What we tend to forget sometimes, though, is there also is a terrorism security aspect to border security, and I guess episodes like this kind of focus on that aspect as well.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Well, and I was at our border with Secretary Chertoff a few weeks ago and made the point that one of the problems with the fact that our economic immigration system is broken, so that we have so many people coming illegally through the border to work, that we don't have the ability to distinguish between somebody coming over to work or coming to commit a terrorist offense. And that is one of the many reasons why the federal government needs to put way more resources on the Arizona border.

>> Michael Grant:
Let's talk about -- we've got a couple, three, proposals out this week. Let's get to as many as we can.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Sure.

>> Michael Grant:
The DPS -- I believe it was a 12-man unit working with a similar-sized Border Patrol unit.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Here's the problem we're trying to address. In the Maricopa County area, if they, you know, stop -- you know, go to a stash house and find 30 undocumented individuals or what have you, people here illegally, a lot of times they have to release those folks because there is literally no one to pick them up, get them entered into the federal criminal justice system, have them detained and so forth. What we have offered to homeland security is two full squads of Department of Public Safety personnel, six officers -- 12 officers who would be paired with federal agents whose sole job would be to pick people up, make sure that their paperwork is processed and they are entered into the justice system the way they need to be as opposed to the current policy of catch and release. That's part one of our program. Number two, through some homeland security dollars we have, we know that the human smuggling operations in Arizona are facilitated by a few things. One of the things is a very sophisticated market in fraudulent manufacture and sale of IDs. We've married the department of liquor and the Department of Transportation, MVD and our Inspector General and Department of Public Safety all housed are the 24/7 intelligence center and they are to find the people selling false documents into these operations. They have only been up and at it a little bit, and they have dealt with I think 1,000 IDs is what I saw. They are clearly moving ahead very rapidly. The third thing we rolled out this week is an enhanced presence with respect to auto theft, particularly autos that are going south toward Mexico, and --

>> Michael Grant:
Increased photo surveillance?

>> Janet Napolitano:
And we have a partnership with the government of Sonora, the state of Sonora to assist us with that. We've always had a good relationship with the government of Sonora, but Governor Boris and I got together and we are both state Governors and said our respective captain tolls are not doing what they need to do to keep our borders safe and secure. That's where the auto theft idea came from.

>> Michael Grant:
Part of the auto theft thing being that frequently stolen vehicles from Arizona taken back across the border and then used to bring people back?

>> Janet Napolitano:
To smuggle human beings back, correct. That's what I said. What I'm trying to do is focus, you know, the State is not going to be another immigration service. That's the federal government, but what we can, I think and need to do in these circumstances is to have some focus and targeted law enforcement activity that goes to the supports for the huge trafficking businesses that are ongoing now, and so we're dealing with the catch-and-release issue in Phoenix, dealing with the stolen car facilitation for these smuggling rings and the fraudulent identifications.

>> Michael Grant:
Now, legislative Republicans, senate representative Ken Bennett says this is an exercise in political rehabilitation-- what do you say?

>> Janet Napolitano:
I say, come off it. Yeah, I vetoed bills, but I signed bills. I signed bills making human trafficking a felony. I signed bills allowing judges to enhance a criminal sentence if you commit a crime while you are here illegally. I signed a bill precluding using public money for day labor centers. I don't think that that should enhance the demand side of the traffic. I did sign bills that I thought would work. I vetoed some which would have had an impact on lawful Arizonans who reside here legally as opposed to illegal immigration. And I think what we need to do now is take the politics out of this particular discussion, the rhetoric has gotten way too red-hot on both sides, and say what can we do pragmatically, day-by-day, step by step to strengthen the law enforcement efforts where illegal immigration is concerned, human trafficking and human smuggling, and that's what I intend to do.

>> Michael Grant:
For example, if your concern is with false IDs, why veto the consular ID bill?

>> Janet Napolitano
It wasn't about consular IDs. It would have applied to every foreign issued passport. If you were here from great Britain and you had to use your passport for identification, we couldn't accept it the way that bill was drafted. It was very overbroad. I have to mention --

>> Michael Grant:
Could you craft a better one? Because my information is that the consular IDs are a little shaky.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Then you need to tell all of the banks in the State of Arizona, all of which take the consular ID. Tell the cities, most of which take the consular ID. Tell our big retail establishments, all of which take the consular ID.

>> Michael Grant:
Wasn't that part of the thrust of the bill was to tell levels of government and perhaps tell other people, listen; you ought to know this is a questionable form of ID?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Don't you think that before a large national bank has decided they will take an ID that they've already looked into it? I mean, come on. I think that we take all kinds of ID.

>> Michael Grant:
I blue hot and cold on that. Every time they mess up my account, I'm not sure how competent they are.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Read the veto message on that bill. One of the things I singled out, it wasn't a consular ID bill. It applied to all kinds of foreign issued IDs, passports included.

>> Michael Grant:
Another veto, if the concern is catch and release, and you are absolutely correct about that, we've all heard the horror stories, but why not allow the option, not the mandate, to local law enforcement to go ahead and enforce immigration laws?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Yeah, and I'll tell you why I vetoed that. I vetoed that in part because every local agency in state asked me to veto the bill. Why? Because they don't have the resources to do the catch and release. Their officers are supposed to be policing streets. They have other duties. What our plan will do is allow a combined squad of federal and state agencies to come take those undocumented aliens off the local police hands so they can go back to the street crime fighting they are being paid to do. This is the kind of setup they were asking for, not an unfunded mandate to them that would take them away from their other assigned duties.

>> Michael Grant:
Even though it wasn't mandatory? No locality would have to do it.

>> Janet Napolitano:
The way it was being broadcast and talked about, the political pressure on them to do it would have been insurmountable. Like I said, when the bill came to me, it was a flood of -- and the bill did not pass by much in the legislature, I must say. It was a very close vote. And law enforcement came to me and I understand the situation because I've been in federal prosecution and state prosecution. I understand exactly what they were telling me saying, Janet, this is not something we can do and it creates an unreal expectation. We need to think our way through that. So we have proposed the joint DPS/federal squad for Maricopa County, and then next week, there will be a large meeting of about 100 state, federal and local law enforcement chiefs and others --

>> Michael Grant:
What are you hoping comes out of that?

>> Janet Napolitano:
Other practical pragmatic recommendations on what we can do on the law enforcement end to free up federal agent time to do the immigration work they need to do, to keep our local police officers able to do the street crime work they need to do, but to enable us to enforce more fully, the immigration laws that right now are not being enforced.

>> Michael Grant:
When they came to you on that bill, did they have any tips that they gave you? You know, this is a really bad idea, but I've been thinking about this one and this would be very practical.

>> Janet Napolitano:
Not at that time, but I asked them for that. And part of this, you have to realize what a huge culture change this is. Back when I was, for example, the United States attorney, the federal government would tell state and local law enforcement, stay away from immigration, that's us, that's our sole responsibility, it's exclusive federal jurisdiction, you don't have a role. Well now we know the federal government simply hasn't put the resources into Arizona it needs to and it's no longer sufficient to say, well, it's the feds' responsibility. We have to be creative and think about targeted, focused, law enforcement efforts where state and fed can go together. That's what we're doing.

>> Michael Grant:
Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano, thank you for joining us.

>> Janet Napolitano:
You bet.

>> Michael Grant:
Two of Arizona's Supreme Court Justices are among those who have clerked for United States Supreme Court justice Sandra Day O'Connor. She recently announced her retirement. We'll talk to the two Arizona justices about their experiences with O'Connor, but first, Mike Sauceda gives us a brief look at a statue commissioned by O'Connor's former clerks.

>> Mike Sauceda:
It started with an idea to put a portrait of the United States supreme Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. Two of her former clerks Ruth McGregor and attorney Scott Bales wanted to honor their mentor.

>> Ruth McGregor:
There was no place to hang a portrait where it would not be either obscured or lost in the space around it.

>> Mike Sauceda:
So instead, they chose a bronze statue to honor O'Connor. A committee was formed to raise funds and find the artist. Committee wanted one from the west, an Arizonan and a woman. Art teacher Susan Henningson was perfectly sculpted for the job. It was a daunting task.

>> Susan Henningson:
I'm a sculptor and an art teacher; Justice O'Connor is a world figure. Although it seemed a daunting project, the concept for the sculpture came to me quite effortlessly, and I had a very spiritual peace about it.

>> Mike Sauceda:
After more than a year of work, The statue was finally put into place and unveiled at the federal court building in downtown Phoenix in 2002. Many dignitaries attended with O'Connor commenting on the ceremony and her new statue.

>> Sandra Day O'Connor:
It's a little bit like attending one's own memorial service, which is a rare achievement indeed.

>> Michael Grant:
Here now to tell us about their experiences with Sandra Day O'Connor are Arizona Supreme Court chief justice Ruth McGregor and the newest member of the court, Scott Bales. We've almost got a quorum here; right?

>> Scott Bales
Of course.

>> Justice McGregor, you were the first crop.

>> Ruth McGregor:
I was.

>> Michael Grant:
How did that come about?

>> Ruth McGregor:
Well, when Justice O'Connor was nominated, justice potter Stewart had retired, and he had hired three of the four clerks that he was entitled to hire, leaving one slot open. I had known Justice O'Connor because her husband and I were partners at Fennimore Craig, and so when she was actually nominated, I wrote her a letter and asked whether she would like me to come along as a law clerk and fortunately for me, she said yes, and I went.

>> Michael Grant:
Did you go back to the confirmation hearings?

>> Ruth McGregor:
I was there, yes. I sat through them, uh-huh.

>> Michael Grant:
Wasn't that an amazing experience? I've done a lot of fun things in broadcasting, but that's right up there at the top of the fun things that -- it was such a turmoil back there.

>> Ruth McGregor:
It was a turmoil, and the hearings themselves were so interesting. One of my sisters had gone with me, and during the first morning, I thought that she was just a little bit nervous in her answers, and when we left for lunch, I said, my prediction is that by this afternoon, she will be lecturing and educating them, and she did.

>> Michael Grant:
Yeah. Now, Justice Bales, you were '84?

>> Scott Bales:
'84-'85.

>> Michael Grant:
So pretty early in the process. You were talking about how she would organize impromptu clerk tours to places?

>> Scott Bales:
Well, I think she -- I think this might have reflected that she sometimes thought we were working too hard, because out of the blue, she would show up and she would say she organized a trip to some newly opened art exhibit or something like that, and we would sweep down on the Smithsonian Museum and do a whirl-wind tour and be back at the chambers back at work in an hour.

>> Michael Grant:
And you were commenting that other people would kind of immediately do a double take?

>> Scott Bales:
She was very much, I guess, something of a celebrity in the Washington scene, so when you went out on things like that, heads turned.

>> Michael Grant:
Did she remain on the A-list, the A-party list in Washington for her entire 24 years? Because I know she was there in the early 1980s?

>> Ruth McGregor:
As far as I know, yes. She was always a sought-after guest, not only because of her position, but because the reasons we like to have particular people as guests. She was interested in the people. They were interested in meeting her. She has a broad range of interest. The O'Connors were always sought after as guests.

>> Michael Grant:
How did Justice O'Connor use her law clerks? I think different justices have different ways.

>> Scott Bales:
Well, she used them to, generally speaking help prepare the arguments that she wrote for the court. So you're sort of a research assistant. On the supreme Court they have so many petitions for review and things like that.

>>Michael Grant:
That is an interesting aspect that most of the public is unaware of.

>> Scott Bales:
Right. And the Supreme Court receives more than 6,000 applications for review each year, and they can't ever hear that many cases.

>> Michael Grant:
Right, I think only 72 this year were heard in Phoenix.

>> Scott Bales:
Well when Justice McGregor and I were each law clerks for Justice O'Connor the court was hearing more cases. So--

>>Michael Grant:
Is Justice O'Connor-obviously I've heard different stories about different justices insofar as their approach-some would use sounding boards and those types of things, other justices would say ok, and in excruciating detail, "here's what I think about this case" and then dictate actual sentences. Those are maybe the two extremes, where did Justice O'Connor fall on that continuum?

>> Ruth McGregor:
At least when I worked for her, her approach was to, once she had an assignment, she would sit down with all the clerks who were going to be working with her on the first draft of the opinion and she'd explain her reasoning and analysis and direction she wanted to take. Any changing she made to actual sentences came after the actual draft of the opinion. But we had a very clear notion of where she wanted to go because the analysis and the reasoning were always with the justice; I think that's true in all the chambers.

>> Michael Grant:
There's a lot of old tradition obviously associated with the Supreme Court; how often do the justices meet as a group to make their decisions? Is that a weekly event?

>> Ruth McGregor:
Well, when the justices are hearing oral arguments, there will be conferences about the arguments they heard. But they don't have oral arguments every week. If you look at the calendar for a particular court term, you know the judges will look at pieces every week. And they hear petitions for review every month. And of course in September they have summer session where they look at all the petitions for review filed over that summer.

>> Michael Grant:
Is it true that only the justices are in the room during that time? Anybody else?

>> Scott Bales:
Right. That is true. That's been a tradition for I think forever.

>> Michael Grant:
In fact, isn't it like the most junior justice that has to open the door or pour the water or something like that?

>> Scott Bales:
There is a tradition like that, I think whenever there's going to be, someone has to be the messenger, it's the newest justice that has to do it.

>> Michael Grant:
I would imagine the clerks would be quite curious as to what is going on inside that room.

>> Scott Bales:
I'm sure that's true, but I've never heard of a clerk getting close to the conference room to figure out what was going on.

>> Ruth McGregor:
Actually it would be very difficult because of where the conference room is physically located.

>> Michael Grant:
What is the one thing you two remember about the experience: with Justice O'Connor

>> Ruth McGregor:
The one thing that's the classical thing was the intense scrutiny given to her during her first term. The media, the public, everyone was interested in everything she did. Everything she said, every place she went. And then how she handled it all with so much grace, so much dignity.

>> Michael Grant:
Chief Justice Ruth McGregor, Justice Scott Bales, good to see you again.

>> Scott Bales:
Thank you, Mike.

>>Michael Grant:
You can check what will be on future "Horizon" shows or take a look at the transcript of tonight's show on www.azpbs.org . To get to the home page, scroll down and click on the work "Horizon."

We have a programming note tonight at nine, you can see a new version of "Fronline's" Program: Al Quadea's New Front. That is an exploration of the Global Terrorist Network. Thanks for being with us tonight. Tomorrow of course we'll have the Friday edition of Horizon, and we'll re-cap the week. Thanks very much for joining us on this Thursday evening. I'm Michael Grant. Have a good one.

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